Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

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Robert M yers
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#301 Post by Robert M yers » August 8th, 2019, 7:18 pm

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:58 pm
Kim Z wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Those of us in California understand this is an off the charts hyper-regulated, environmentally excessive, business unfriendly state.

They paid their shake-down and made peace, and would like to move on and continue to do business. After 6 pages of arm-chair quarterbacking, don't you guys have your own businesses to mind?
This.
Shut up and (dribble) post more in the Recent Buy thread?

Why shouldn’t people discuss an interesting development in the wine world. Because “they” want to move on doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed. It seems like there are some who would like to bury their head in the sand due to some fantastical crush on a winery. If this was Wagner I have a feeling the tone would be quite different.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#302 Post by ATaylor » August 8th, 2019, 7:32 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:08 pm
Alan cannot resist more baseless, empty digs. What did the regulators do to Steph Curry to make you so angry?
Nah it is a never ending grudge against some faceless bureaucrat who said no when his boss wanted yes and it killed his bonus.
@ndrew

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#303 Post by GregT » August 8th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Neal - that test is fun to take, but I'm glad you noted that it doesn't mean much.

It doesn't test anything so much as it tests your ability to learn and quickly unlearn. They set up a bunch of words to click with your right hand and pictures of white kids to click with your right hand. There are a bunch of black kids to click with your left hand and a bunch of words to click with your left hand.

You run through that a few times and then they switch hands for the words and then for the kids.

That has nothing to do with bias whatsoever.

They could do the same thing using fish and a chickens rather than kids of different races, or use cows and trees or any two categories on earth, associating one with "positive" words and another with "negative" words. Then when they switch hands and you've just taught yourself to use your right hand for a fish, you reflexively do that once or twice and voila! You prefer fish over chicken!

Thanks for posting the link though - I couldn't resist.

As for Rhys, the test should be redone, using Rhys products or cannabis products rather than the faces of kids. Then people can figure out whether they have unconscious biases for or against Rhys.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#304 Post by Peter Petersen » August 8th, 2019, 8:51 pm

Several mitigating points have been mentions already. Not to be a complete apologists, but run-off control and construction is a serious issue that, even if done to the letter of the law, often fails. Within a mile of where we live the city and county have been required to control run-off to our "creek". This has been done with serious concrete and steel edifices build in 2008. Three out of four have been destroyed by single storms in 2009, 2017 (relevant here), and 2019. In each case more erosion was caused than has ever been recorded before the construction. In 2017 one notable spillway in CA failed.

Rhys probably couldn't care less about my support, but this is not what makes me stop buying for now or the near future.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#305 Post by Mark Y » August 8th, 2019, 9:41 pm

This thread has probably run its course.
Y.e.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#306 Post by e chin » August 8th, 2019, 10:13 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:41 pm
David_K wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:13 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 5:33 pm
But my (admittedly cynical) interpretation is that the settlement amount is the indicator that Rhys had little leverage, and was pretty much forced to accept the terms. Maybe "easy to roll" would be a good description...
If it's true that Rhys had little leverage, that *supports* the view that their conduct really was bad, not the other way around, you know...
And, if Rhys was, say, owned by a billionaire who does care about environmental impact, was truly conciliatory about what happened, and wanted to do his best to more than make up for it, the settlement could be seemingly generous.
Wes if Rhys used contractors to request and submit permits would they all be under the Rhys name or is it possible like an above poster suggested that is why Kevin can’t divulge more info due to possible lawsuits against contractors. If that is the case would these agencies know in advance that Kevin was wealthy enough to be able to pay that fine and he being the sole owner?
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#307 Post by GregT » August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am

Mark Y wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 9:41 pm
This thread has probably run its course.
Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#308 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 9th, 2019, 3:26 am

GregT wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am
Mark Y wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 9:41 pm
This thread has probably run its course.
Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
It’s discharging a lot of sentiment. ;)
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#309 Post by Markus S » August 9th, 2019, 4:28 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:26 am
GregT wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am
Mark Y wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 9:41 pm
This thread has probably run its course.
Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
It’s discharging a lot of sentiment. ;)
I think you mean sediment! [highfive.gif]
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#310 Post by MitchTallan » August 9th, 2019, 5:15 am

It's a bottomless well.
We're digging a tunnel to China.
We're trying to swim upstream.
We're shedding tears.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#311 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 9th, 2019, 6:28 am

Markus S wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 4:28 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:26 am
GregT wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am


Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
It’s discharging a lot of sentiment. ;)
I think you mean sediment! [highfive.gif]
Nope. Wrong as usual. Intentional switch of words. Thanks for playing though.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#312 Post by CJ Beazley » August 9th, 2019, 6:55 am

Markus S wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 4:28 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:26 am
GregT wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am


Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
It’s discharging a lot of sentiment. ;)
I think you mean sediment! [highfive.gif]
Jeez, even Levine got that one. Champers will be none to pleased if he misses an opportunity to pun on this.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#313 Post by Matthew King » August 9th, 2019, 8:32 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 3:26 am
GregT wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:35 am
Mark Y wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 9:41 pm
This thread has probably run its course.
Of course! [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
It’s discharging a lot of sentiment. ;)
I’m am tired of all the stream of consciousness...
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#314 Post by Alan Rath » August 9th, 2019, 10:38 am

ATaylor wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 7:32 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:08 pm
Alan cannot resist more baseless, empty digs. What did the regulators do to Steph Curry to make you so angry?
Nah it is a never ending grudge against some faceless bureaucrat who said no when his boss wanted yes and it killed his bonus.
My apologies for not living up to the standards of the board by responding with personal attacks.

Now, more fun with Water Board settlements! For anyone interested in reading through these entertaining documents, you can find them here. Select "Administrative civil liability order" in the Order Type menu:

https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/northcoa ... ed_orders/

I've read through a bunch more, most are as previously described, fairly minor fines of mainly city and county works or waste treatment facilities. I haven't found any other vineyard actions, but I did find one other winery settlement! A Kendall Jackson action for discharge of 300 gallons of a potassium permanganate solution into a creek in Windsor. Fined $7500.

Here's the next largest fine I could find, imposed on Caltrans ($2M)
"The Settling Respondent is alleged to have violated provisions of the 401
Certification and the Construction General Permit. Specifically, Violation #1 alleges the
unauthorized discharge of storm water runoff from the Project during three storm events
occurring in 2014: February 5 through 10, February 12 to 19, and March 25 to April 4.
In total, Caltrans estimated approximately 3,443,280 million gallons of project area
storm water entered Haehl Creek between water quality monitoring stations WQ-01 and
WQ-03. Violation #2 alleges that the sediment basins were not designed in accordance
with the CASQA Construction BMP Guidance Handbook pursuant to the 401
Certification and Caltrans did not submit a proposal for a non-standard BMP to the
Regional Water Board prior to implementation pursuant to the CGP. A total of 37 days
was calculated for the time period of this violation, starting from November 1,2013
through December 7, 2013. Violation #3 alleges that Caltrans inadequately employed
erosion control BMPs prior to the storm events occurring in 2014 from February 5
through 10, February 12 to 19, and March 25 to April 4. The Regional Water Board is
authorized to impose administrative civil liability for these violations pursuant to Water
Code section 13385, subdivisions (a)(2) and (a)(4).

6. The liability amount was determined using a factors analysis consistent with
Water Code section 13385 and the State Water Resources Control Board Water Quality
Enforcement Policy (May 2010)( Enforcement Policy ). The Prosecution Staff
considered the methodology set forth in the Enforcement Policy and calculated a liability
of $2,383,075 as detailed in Attachment A. Attachment A is attached hereto and
incorporated by reference as though fully set forth herein.

8. the Parties
have agreed to the imposition of $1,999,999 in liability. This liability amount is less than
the liability amount of $2,383,075 calculated by Prosecution Staff using the Enforcement
Policy as shown in Attachment A."
It warms my heart to know that one state agency is paying another state agency. Your tax dollars hard at work.

Here's a large fine imposed on a major industrial facility:
"Evergreen owns and operates the Samoa Pulp Mill, which is regulated by
Waste Discharge Requirements Order No. R1-2004-0047, NPDES Permit No.
CA0005894. The pulp mill is located at 1 TCF Drive on the north spit of
Humboldt Bay near the community of Samoa.

2. The Samoa Pulp Mill has the capacity to produce an average of 700 tons per
day of bleached or unbleached Kraft market pulp. The mill is permitted to
discharge a monthly average of up to 20 million gallons per day of wastewater
through a submerged multi-port diffuser, with a dilution ratio of 115:1, located
8,200 feet offshore in the Pacific Ocean at a depth of 82 feet. The mill does not
have wastewater treatment facilities and relies on process control and best
management practices to meet the terms of the waste discharge requirements.
Effluent from the mill consists of process wastewater from the Kraft pulping
process, wastewater from maintenance activities, solids from the raw water
treatment plant, blowdown from the recovery boiler, storm water, and
freshwater flows to maintain the outfall during periods of pulp mill shutdown.

3. On January 27, 2009, the Assistant Executive Officer of the Regional Water
Board issued the Complaint which proposed to assess an administrative civil
liability of $453,000 against Evergreen for violations of effluent limitations
contained in Regional Water Board Waste Discharge Requirements Order No.
R1-2004-0047. The violations detailed in Table 1 of the Complaint occurred
during the period of January 1, 2008 through December 31, 2008, and are
subject to mandatory minimum penalties and civil liability provisions outlined in
California Water Code section 13385, subsection (c), (e), (h) and (i).
This is a major industrial facility, with major pollution violations. Yet their fine is an order of magnitude less than the fine imposed on Rhys. A quick search on "Somoa pulp mill" turns up some useful results:

https://www.times-standard.com/2018/07/ ... it-caused/
"The company deemed responsible for nearly causing an environmental catastrophe on Humboldt Bay and the Samoa Peninsula may be walking away while public agencies pick up a more than $16 million price tag for the cleanup"

https://www.northcoastjournal.com/NewsB ... ially-dead
"Somoa pulp mill officially dead"

And this fun one, unrelated to the topic at hand, but a kick to read through the comments:
https://kymkemp.com/2019/01/10/possible ... om-eureka/
"POSSIBLE HASH LAB LOCATED NEAR OLD PULP MILL ACROSS FROM EUREKA"

And look! An action against a marijuana grower! (for those keeping score, that's one (1) action over the past 20 years, in 2002, though the violation occurred in 2000). For oil and diesel contamination:
"The OES report was filed following the discovery of diesel contamination
and other potential contaminants at the Site by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office
and the Drug Enforcement Agency during an enforcement action on a marijuana
growing operation. Soil samples collected at the Site by HCDEH revealed the
detection of Total Petroleum Hydrocarbons as grease and oil at 14,000 ug/g (ppm)
and TPH Diesel at 30,000 ppm."

A description of the potential fine:
" the Discharger has failed to submit the report required under
CWC Section 13267(b). As of January 14, 2002, the Discharger has been in violation of
Section 13267(b) of the CWC for 259 days. This yields a maximum civil liability of
$259,000
"

But of course that's not what's imposed:
"The Executive Officer of the Regional Water Board hereby proposes that Brian Craig be
assessed an Administrative Civil Liability in the amount of Thirty Thousand Dollars
($30,000.00). Of that amount, fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000.00) is due and payable by
February 15, 2002. The remaining fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000.00) is suspended
contingent upon submission of an adequate report of workplan implementation by
February 4, 2002."
To avoid my obvious bias influencing the reader, I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how Rhys was treated relative to these other infractions. Remember that the vast majority of settlements are in the thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#315 Post by Robert M yers » August 9th, 2019, 11:50 am

The differential in fines levied is one reason why I wondered upstream if Rhys offered/negotiated to make it better than right so to say in order to keep the vineyard mostly as is.

John G suggests this while thing is book worthy which I am hard to imagine, but maybe there is some kind of twist.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#316 Post by K John Joseph » August 9th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 3:11 pm
Jesus WHAT A THREAD!

As I read through the thing, I thought I'd get to the end and then tell you all where you went wrong but . . . .OMG! I've got a life! I'll restrict my response to a couple of minor points

1. The regulatory definition of wetlands has little to do with the marshes the term conjures. Put that out of your minds. I know nothing about the site -- hell, it took me 5 pages before I figured out what a POC was -- but applying "common sense" here can get you in trouble. That does NOT mean that something that doesn't look like a wetland shouldn't be protected as such. Because science.

2. Kevin -- if you are still reading -- I have no experience with this agency but I can tell you it is common practice when negotiating a settlement with an enforcement agency to negotiate the text of (or at least the tone of) the press release(s). In some instances, the parties will do one jointly but for the very reason you cite, at least a discussion about the content should be on the agenda. For next time, although I am sure there won't be one. Have a chat with your lawyer about this one.

3. Alan, I sit on the opposite of the table from government regulatory workers all the time. They make my client's lives miserable routinely. But most of them are well-intentioned, public spirited people who view their jobs as a mission. Key point: their mission is not to make things easy (or hard, necessarily) for the person on the other side of the table; it's to ensure that the law is complied with. Your frustration about getting a "no" when you want a "yes" is palpable, but those of us members of the public who are strangers to your transaction or business should be happy to hear they aren't easy to roll.

4. The Implicit Association Test (IAT) says absolutely nothing -- zero, zilch, nada -- about the biases or proclivities of any individual taking the test. I know the very smart folks who originated the test, have deposed one of them, and they would be the first to tell you (a) that their goal was to aggregate enough data to make some very broad causal conclusions about humankind as a whole; and (b) that it is ridiculous to draw any conclusions about Sally or Sam based on the results. It does not and was not intended to reveal or predict individual character or beliefs. Some of us have serious doubts about its utility even in the aggregate.

It's a fun exercise. You can take it here:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... ndexrk.htm
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#317 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 9th, 2019, 12:10 pm

I am honestly curious why Alan is so fired up about this. He seems oddly obsessed.

And Alan - calling your claims baseless is not a personal attack. It is an assessment of your post. If you don't understand the difference, you might want to research ad hominem.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#318 Post by ATaylor » August 9th, 2019, 12:30 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 10:38 am
ATaylor wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 7:32 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:08 pm
Alan cannot resist more baseless, empty digs. What did the regulators do to Steph Curry to make you so angry?
Nah it is a never ending grudge against some faceless bureaucrat who said no when his boss wanted yes and it killed his bonus.
My apologies for not living up to the standards of the board by responding with personal attacks.
Ditto here Alan.........if you can't see the tongue in cheek.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#319 Post by c fu » August 9th, 2019, 12:57 pm

K John Joseph wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 12:06 pm
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 3:11 pm
Jesus WHAT A THREAD!

As I read through the thing, I thought I'd get to the end and then tell you all where you went wrong but . . . .OMG! I've got a life! I'll restrict my response to a couple of minor points

1. The regulatory definition of wetlands has little to do with the marshes the term conjures. Put that out of your minds. I know nothing about the site -- hell, it took me 5 pages before I figured out what a POC was -- but applying "common sense" here can get you in trouble. That does NOT mean that something that doesn't look like a wetland shouldn't be protected as such. Because science.

2. Kevin -- if you are still reading -- I have no experience with this agency but I can tell you it is common practice when negotiating a settlement with an enforcement agency to negotiate the text of (or at least the tone of) the press release(s). In some instances, the parties will do one jointly but for the very reason you cite, at least a discussion about the content should be on the agenda. For next time, although I am sure there won't be one. Have a chat with your lawyer about this one.

3. Alan, I sit on the opposite of the table from government regulatory workers all the time. They make my client's lives miserable routinely. But most of them are well-intentioned, public spirited people who view their jobs as a mission. Key point: their mission is not to make things easy (or hard, necessarily) for the person on the other side of the table; it's to ensure that the law is complied with. Your frustration about getting a "no" when you want a "yes" is palpable, but those of us members of the public who are strangers to your transaction or business should be happy to hear they aren't easy to roll.

4. The Implicit Association Test (IAT) says absolutely nothing -- zero, zilch, nada -- about the biases or proclivities of any individual taking the test. I know the very smart folks who originated the test, have deposed one of them, and they would be the first to tell you (a) that their goal was to aggregate enough data to make some very broad causal conclusions about humankind as a whole; and (b) that it is ridiculous to draw any conclusions about Sally or Sam based on the results. It does not and was not intended to reveal or predict individual character or beliefs. Some of us have serious doubts about its utility even in the aggregate.

It's a fun exercise. You can take it here:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... ndexrk.htm
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#320 Post by Dan Kravitz » August 9th, 2019, 9:02 pm

I am sorry to say it's tired, I'm late and I have to work. Next week I will reply in detail.

There is NOT a specific implicit association test. There are many of them (not sure if it's dozens or hundreds).

I'm not saying that anybody on this thread should be put in a Supermax prison.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#321 Post by Eric Lundblad » August 9th, 2019, 11:22 pm

Please, this is not the thread to continue a discussion about the implicit association thread...or any other sideline discussion. If you'd like to continue it, and I'm sure I'd find that quite interesting, do it in another thread. Continuing this thread for any discussion other than the current Rhys discussion doesn't help anyone, including Rhys.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#322 Post by Tony Toto » August 10th, 2019, 9:14 am

T. Williams wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 3:48 pm
To everyone who isn’t going to buy Rhys because of this, I pose a follow up question:

Do you also boycott factory food farms, both meat and vegetable/fruit, that commit just as egregious crimes against nature? For that matter add in garment makers, energy companies, and petroleum manufacturers.

Is it not cool? Yes.
Is it going to make me stop buying Rhys? Nope.
Exactly. There are many corporations who commit egregious crimes against nature but people still buy. Why should this example be any different.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#323 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 10th, 2019, 10:12 am

Dan Kravitz wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 9:02 pm
I am sorry to say it's tired, I'm late and I have to work. Next week I will reply in detail.

There is NOT a specific implicit association test. There are many of them (not sure if it's dozens or hundreds).

I'm not saying that anybody on this thread should be put in a Supermax prison.

Beset regards,

Dan Kravitz
The IAT was introduced in the scientific literature in 1998 by Anthony Greenwald, Debbie McGhee, and Jordan Schwartz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test
The IAT is the brainchild of APS William James Fellow Anthony Greenwald (University of Washington), and he began working collaboratively on it with APS Past President Mahzarin Banaji (Harvard University) and APS Fellow Brian Nosek (University of Virginia) in the mid-1990s. Over time, the tool has led to the examination of unconscious and automatic thought processes among people in different contexts, including employers, police officers, jurors, and voters.
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/ob ... sociations
The implicit association test, co-created by Harvard University psychology chair Mahzarin Banaji and University of Washington researcher Anthony Greenwald, is an excellent example. Banaji and Greenwald claim that the IAT, a brief exercise in which one sits down at a computer and responds to various stimuli, measures unconscious bias and therefore real-world behavior.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/ ... oblem.html
Implicit-bias theory burst onto the academic scene in 1998 with the rollout of an instrument called the implicit association test, the brainchild of social psychologists Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji. A press release trumpeted the IAT as a breakthrough in prejudice studies: “The pervasiveness of prejudice, affecting 90 to 95 percent of people, was demonstrated today . . . by psychologists who developed a new tool that measures the unconscious roots of prejudice.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-false- ... 1507590908
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#324 Post by Robert M yers » August 10th, 2019, 12:25 pm

Tony Toto wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 9:14 am
T. Williams wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 3:48 pm
To everyone who isn’t going to buy Rhys because of this, I pose a follow up question:

Do you also boycott factory food farms, both meat and vegetable/fruit, that commit just as egregious crimes against nature? For that matter add in garment makers, energy companies, and petroleum manufacturers.

Is it not cool? Yes.
Is it going to make me stop buying Rhys? Nope.
Exactly. There are many corporations who commit egregious crimes against nature but people still buy. Why should this example be any different.
Ridiculous comparisons. I don’t buy Gerber chicken because I assume they are being horrible stewards of the chickens and their/our environment. If I found out my local purveyor, whom I pay a premium to was not acting in good conscience I would look elsewhere too. Anywhere there is a reasonable alternative to the egregious crimes I always look for an alternative. You can’t micro manage everything in your life but this is a wine enthusiast board where we all micro analyze this stuff.

I’m not saying if this is a boycott able offense or not, that’s for every buyer to decide. I do expect all the small producers I buy from to be “better” than the big guys. Tasting better is only part of the equation for me.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#325 Post by Alan Rath » August 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm

Tony Toto wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 9:14 am
T. Williams wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 3:48 pm
To everyone who isn’t going to buy Rhys because of this, I pose a follow up question:

Do you also boycott factory food farms, both meat and vegetable/fruit, that commit just as egregious crimes against nature? For that matter add in garment makers, energy companies, and petroleum manufacturers.

Is it not cool? Yes.
Is it going to make me stop buying Rhys? Nope.
Exactly. There are many corporations who commit egregious crimes against nature but people still buy. Why should this example be any different.
Seriously? Crimes against nature? You're categorizing what Rhys did as "crimes against nature"? Frankly, I have yet to be convinced they did anything wrong at all, except somehow get on the wrong side of some regulators and inspectors. But even in the worst case, there are no "crimes", there are violations of regulations. And those violations sure as hell don't rise to the level of "crimes against nature".

This, btw, is the answer to David and Andrew's question of what my interest is: responding to the stupidity and hyperbole of too many posts in this thread.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#326 Post by Mark Y » August 10th, 2019, 1:13 pm

Took that test and it says

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American children and European American children.
Random House and the authors of
Blindspot thank Project Implicit for
hosting Blindspot’s IATs.

What is it suppose to say?

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 10:12 am
Dan Kravitz wrote:
August 9th, 2019, 9:02 pm
I am sorry to say it's tired, I'm late and I have to work. Next week I will reply in detail.

There is NOT a specific implicit association test. There are many of them (not sure if it's dozens or hundreds).

I'm not saying that anybody on this thread should be put in a Supermax prison.

Beset regards,

Dan Kravitz
The IAT was introduced in the scientific literature in 1998 by Anthony Greenwald, Debbie McGhee, and Jordan Schwartz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test
The IAT is the brainchild of APS William James Fellow Anthony Greenwald (University of Washington), and he began working collaboratively on it with APS Past President Mahzarin Banaji (Harvard University) and APS Fellow Brian Nosek (University of Virginia) in the mid-1990s. Over time, the tool has led to the examination of unconscious and automatic thought processes among people in different contexts, including employers, police officers, jurors, and voters.
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/ob ... sociations
The implicit association test, co-created by Harvard University psychology chair Mahzarin Banaji and University of Washington researcher Anthony Greenwald, is an excellent example. Banaji and Greenwald claim that the IAT, a brief exercise in which one sits down at a computer and responds to various stimuli, measures unconscious bias and therefore real-world behavior.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/ ... oblem.html
Implicit-bias theory burst onto the academic scene in 1998 with the rollout of an instrument called the implicit association test, the brainchild of social psychologists Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji. A press release trumpeted the IAT as a breakthrough in prejudice studies: “The pervasiveness of prejudice, affecting 90 to 95 percent of people, was demonstrated today . . . by psychologists who developed a new tool that measures the unconscious roots of prejudice.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-false- ... 1507590908
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#327 Post by Danny L. » August 10th, 2019, 1:18 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm
Tony Toto wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 9:14 am
T. Williams wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 3:48 pm
To everyone who isn’t going to buy Rhys because of this, I pose a follow up question:

Do you also boycott factory food farms, both meat and vegetable/fruit, that commit just as egregious crimes against nature? For that matter add in garment makers, energy companies, and petroleum manufacturers.

Is it not cool? Yes.
Is it going to make me stop buying Rhys? Nope.
Exactly. There are many corporations who commit egregious crimes against nature but people still buy. Why should this example be any different.
Seriously? Crimes against nature? You're categorizing what Rhys did as "crimes against nature"? Frankly, I have yet to be convinced they did anything wrong at all, except somehow get on the wrong side of some regulators and inspectors. But even in the worst case, there are no "crimes", there are violations of regulations. And those violations sure as hell don't rise to the level of "crimes against nature".

This, btw, is the answer to David and Andrew's question of what my interest is: responding to the stupidity and hyperbole of too many posts in this thread.

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Wrong. FG 5650 is a misdemeanor that carries the standard jail/fine penalty. However, it does have a civil enforcement or administrative enforcement option, which is what was done here.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#328 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 10th, 2019, 1:23 pm

Mark Y wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 1:13 pm
Took that test and it says

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American children and European American children.
Random House and the authors of
Blindspot thank Project Implicit for
hosting Blindspot’s IATs.

What is it suppose to say?
In my view? It should say "this is a bit of pseudo science that has no real external validity, but we hope you had fun taking the quiz nonetheless."
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#329 Post by GregT » August 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm

In my view? It should say "this is a bit of pseudo science that has no real external validity, but we hope you had fun taking the quiz nonetheless."
[winner.gif]
Continuing this thread for any discussion other than the current Rhys discussion doesn't help anyone, including Rhys.
Eric - continuing this thread for the current Rhys discussion doesn't help Rhys either.

Seems like opinions have been formed and are unlikely to change. I appreciate the input from people in the region. Maybe when I'm up there in a few weeks I'll take a look, but more for curiosity than anything, because without some background in the geology, I won't know what I'm even looking at.

The board found some reason to sanction Rhys, and Rhys made amends that are satisfactory to the board. Without any further facts, there is only speculation and opinion left.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#330 Post by T. Williams » August 11th, 2019, 6:12 am

Alan Rath wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 1:02 pm
Tony Toto wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 9:14 am
T. Williams wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 3:48 pm
To everyone who isn’t going to buy Rhys because of this, I pose a follow up question:

Do you also boycott factory food farms, both meat and vegetable/fruit, that commit just as egregious crimes against nature? For that matter add in garment makers, energy companies, and petroleum manufacturers.

Is it not cool? Yes.
Is it going to make me stop buying Rhys? Nope.
Exactly. There are many corporations who commit egregious crimes against nature but people still buy. Why should this example be any different.
Seriously? Crimes against nature? You're categorizing what Rhys did as "crimes against nature"? Frankly, I have yet to be convinced they did anything wrong at all, except somehow get on the wrong side of some regulators and inspectors. But even in the worst case, there are no "crimes", there are violations of regulations. And those violations sure as hell don't rise to the level of "crimes against nature".

This, btw, is the answer to David and Andrew's question of what my interest is: responding to the stupidity and hyperbole of too many posts in this thread.
I'll take the blame and admit poor word choice in my original post. I just didn't have a more concise way of saying "being an A-hole to mother nature and leaving the natural landscape worse than you found it."

@Danny L. - you are assuming a "crime against nature" meant an actual crime as defined by a governing body. I meant it much more in regards to the flower child, one-with-the-land definition.


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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#331 Post by Jim Brennan » August 11th, 2019, 6:27 am

GregT wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Without any further facts, there is only speculation and opinion left.
Greg, that is the internet's raison d'etre... This thread could continue for years!

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#332 Post by Paul H Galli » August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am

Kim Z wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Those of us in California understand this is an off the charts hyper-regulated, environmentally excessive, business unfriendly state.
Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#333 Post by Russ Williams » August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am

Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am
Kim Z wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Those of us in California understand this is an off the charts hyper-regulated, environmentally excessive, business unfriendly state.
Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#334 Post by Douglas Breen » August 11th, 2019, 8:50 am

K John Joseph wrote:
August 5th, 2019, 12:16 pm
deleted post after reading this:

https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/northcoa ... %20SRF.pdf
The pictures tell the whole story. No permits? I feel this is a case where California regulations worked. I do not want people removing and changing waterways without approval. I like water and fish.

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#335 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am

Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am
Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am
Kim Z wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Those of us in California understand this is an off the charts hyper-regulated, environmentally excessive, business unfriendly state.
Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#336 Post by c fu » August 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am
Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am


Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#337 Post by Craig G » August 11th, 2019, 9:23 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am
Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am


Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Well, sure. But I bet you can’t name any important companies that are still in California. It’s so unfriendly to business.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#338 Post by Mark Christenson » August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am
Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am


Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
"...the thrall of reason, fool's gold for the bright."

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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#339 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 11th, 2019, 9:41 am

Mark Christenson wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am


And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
Right. Sorry. Forgot that "foreign immigrants" don't count. Although I am sure some of them are decent people.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#340 Post by Anton D » August 11th, 2019, 9:48 am

Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am
Kim Z wrote:
August 8th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Those of us in California understand this is an off the charts hyper-regulated, environmentally excessive, business unfriendly state.
Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
That’s why so many wineries are moving out of state and investment in the industry is so meager.

I hear it is about to be swell times in the Alaskan salmon industry!
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#341 Post by Anton D » August 11th, 2019, 9:51 am

Mark Christenson wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am


And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
[rofl.gif]

Get out while you can, people!
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#342 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 11th, 2019, 9:55 am

Winemakers should move to Mississippi and open up chicken plants. ;)
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#343 Post by Brady Daniels » August 11th, 2019, 12:26 pm

Mark Christenson wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am

Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
rolleyes Seriously, we are devolving this far? Foreigners - bad!

It amuses me when people complain that California is anti-business. It is on a knife-edge, trying to balance the needs of corporations, workers, residents, and the environment. Yet, if it were a country, California would have the fifth largest economy in the world, and hosts many of the most profitable businesses in the world. That doesn’t seem so anti-business to me.

I wish Kevin and his team the best. I appreciate his owning their mistake, and don’t understand the obfuscation of third parties here. If Kevin had reacted like Alan, I would stop buying. He didn’t, and I won’t.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#344 Post by Wes Barton » August 11th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Russ Williams wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:25 am
Paul H Galli wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:17 am


Truer words were never spoken....

TTT
And why people are fleeing the state in large numbers.
No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Both are true. It's just out-of-context Faux News he's citing. Employers are also leaving for other states at record numbers, at the same time new companies are starting up at higher record numbers. It's almost like there's a free market and there are exceedingly strong reasons for many to be here, and reasons for others to move on. Funny that this doom and gloom Faux News has been going on so long, it saw us go from 7th to 6th to 5th largest economy in the world.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#345 Post by Mark Christenson » August 11th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:41 am
Mark Christenson wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:13 am


No. False. Not true. In 2018, the population n CA grew by nearly 200,000. But try again.
Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
Right. Sorry. Forgot that "foreign immigrants" don't count. Although I am sure some of them are decent people.
The original post stated simply that large numbers of people are leaving. (Technically he said “fleeing”.) You said that was not true, in a way that appeared to be definitive. The original post is true from two perspectives: large numbers of people are leaving California, and in-state residents are leaving at a greater rate than out-of-state residents are arriving. With that information only it appeared that you were wrong, but I typically find you to be factually accurate, so I looked for the reason for the continued overall growth rate (which was perhaps your point) and it was interesting to note that first-time immigrants to the US who choose to live in California outnumber the net loss of current state residents.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#346 Post by Mark Christenson » August 11th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Brady Daniels wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 12:26 pm
Mark Christenson wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 9:31 am

Pretty sure the net increase is due to foreign immigration. The immigration from other states is less than that of immigration to other states.

And businesses are leaving.
rolleyes Seriously, we are devolving this far? Foreigners - bad!

It amuses me when people complain that California is anti-business. It is on a knife-edge, trying to balance the needs of corporations, workers, residents, and the environment. Yet, if it were a country, California would have the fifth largest economy in the world, and hosts many of the most profitable businesses in the world. That doesn’t seem so anti-business to me.

I wish Kevin and his team the best. I appreciate his owning their mistake, and don’t understand the obfuscation of third parties here. If Kevin had reacted like Alan, I would stop buying. He didn’t, and I won’t.
See my response above re: immigration. Upon re-reading it I acknowledge it is possible for somebody to ascribe bad intent to my post, but it was simply a reporting of the details given the post about people leaving and Neal’s absolute rebuttal.

As for business, at least for small(ish) businesses, California might not be anti-business, but they’re not pro-business (well, maybe the huge companies get one-off deals that make it pro-business for them). And many companies are leaving. Obviously not enough to change the overall size of the economy, but I don’t think the size of the state’s economy is somehow automatically indicative that the state is pro-business. I’m sure there are people who have companies here who think it’s a great place from a policy/regulation perspective. However, all (unless somebody on this thread changes things for me) of the people I know who have businesses here find it sub-optimal, but do not move for a variety of reasons (they like the lifestyle, weather, they’re worried about a move to someplace like Texas and trying to relocate Californians, etc.).
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#347 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 11th, 2019, 3:52 pm

Yes, it's true. Being environmentally-conscious is difficult, inconvenient, and expensive. It's also important and necessary. I'd rather sacrifice a little now, and have greater levels of success, than sacrifice more later with lower levels of success.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#348 Post by Mark Christenson » August 11th, 2019, 3:55 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 3:52 pm
Yes, it's true. Being environmentally-conscious is difficult, inconvenient, and expensive. It's also important and necessary. I'd rather sacrifice a little now, and have greater levels of success, than sacrifice more later with lower levels of success.
I agree.
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#349 Post by Mel Knox » August 11th, 2019, 4:37 pm

Has anyone discussed how the Haut Medoc came to be a wine growing area?? Dutch engineers drained marshes and turned swampland into famous vineyards. They did similar work near Poitiers and the result is the Marais Poitevin....
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Re: Rhys fined $3.76M for illegally diverting water in Anderson Valley

#350 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 11th, 2019, 4:39 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 4:37 pm
Has anyone discussed how the Haut Medoc came to be a wine growing area?? Dutch engineers drained marshes and turned swampland into famous vineyards. They did similar work near Poitiers and the result is the Marais Poitevin....
And various different wonderful things have been done and built by slave labor. What's your point?
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