TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

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Rich Brown
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TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#1 Post by Rich Brown » July 25th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Wow.  This is a crazy wine, and wildly different than any rose that I’ve ever had before (in a good way). In fact, if I tasted this blind and blindfolded so that I couldn’t see the color, I don’t know what I’d be guessing, but probably not rose.  Speaking of color, this has to be one of the prettiest looking wines I’ve ever seen.  Kinda like a bright/fluorescent orangish, reddish, salmon with a tinge of peach.  Picture melting together an Orange, Red, yellow, and peach Jolly Rancher.  On the nose, this is nice, but not overly expressive, and certainly not the strongest feature of the wine.  More earthy type notes with some slight strawberry, and a tiny hint of oxidation.  In the mouth, unlike their blancs (and the nose), there is really no oxidation at all.  It’s incredibly fresh (especially given it’s a 10 year old rose) and literally bursting with flavors.  Really hard to pin down as there’s a LOT going on, but I’m getting strawberries, freshly picked raspberries, earth, damp leaves and leather, which are all blending together seamlessly with a generous amount of acidity creating a unique and incredibly satisfying mix of bright fruit and savory notes, which all end with a very long and mineral driven finish that lasts upwards of 45 seconds.  Refreshing and contemplative at the same time.  A very serious wine, and a monumental effort.  The hype is real.


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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#2 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 25th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Where is the photo of the wine?

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#3 Post by Rich Brown » July 25th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Swipe left on the pic :)

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#4 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 25th, 2019, 6:36 pm

Rich Brown wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Swipe left on the pic :)
Forgot about that, thanks.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#5 Post by Rich Brown » July 25th, 2019, 6:39 pm

Hard to capture the full effect of the color in a pic....but at least gives you an idea.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#6 Post by EHeffner » July 25th, 2019, 6:41 pm

Wish I could find a bottle for a decent price. Only local shop with it wants $135. Looks lovely though! [cheers.gif]
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#7 Post by Rich Brown » July 26th, 2019, 7:21 am

EHeffner wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:41 pm
Wish I could find a bottle for a decent price. Only local shop with it wants $135. Looks lovely though! [cheers.gif]
Yep, i wish it was cheaper for sure, but this was the first time seeing it here locally in AZ so I had to grab a few. Definitely glad I did - really good/unique wine, and easily the best rose I've ever had.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#8 Post by Chris V. » July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am

Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.

Question: what temp do people recommend drinking this at? I think most would drink their whites around cellar temp or slightly above. Same for this?
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#9 Post by Rich Brown » July 26th, 2019, 8:40 am

Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am
Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.

Question: what temp do people recommend drinking this at? I think most would drink their whites around cellar temp or slightly above. Same for this?
Wow! Screaming deal - congrats! Let's just say I, unfortunately, paid a little more than that!

And this was my first go at the rose but it was great at cellar temp, as well as when it warmed up some in the glass when additional flavors started to emerge.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#10 Post by Dave McIsaac » July 26th, 2019, 9:06 am

Rich Brown wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Wow.  This is a crazy wine, and wildly different than any rose that I’ve ever had before (in a good way). In fact, if I tasted this blind and blindfolded so that I couldn’t see the color, I don’t know what I’d be guessing, but probably not rose.  Speaking of color, this has to be one of the prettiest looking wines I’ve ever seen.  Kinda like a bright/fluorescent orangish, reddish, salmon with a tinge of peach.  Picture melting together an Orange, Red, yellow, and peach Jolly Rancher.  On the nose, this is nice, but not overly expressive, and certainly not the strongest feature of the wine.  More earthy type notes with some slight strawberry, and a tiny hint of oxidation.  In the mouth, unlike their blancs (and the nose), there is really no oxidation at all.  It’s incredibly fresh (especially given it’s a 10 year old rose) and literally bursting with flavors.  Really hard to pin down as there’s a LOT going on, but I’m getting strawberries, freshly picked raspberries, earth, damp leaves and leather, which are all blending together seamlessly with a generous amount of acidity creating a unique and incredibly satisfying mix of bright fruit and savory notes, which all end with a very long and mineral driven finish that lasts upwards of 45 seconds.  Refreshing and contemplative at the same time.  A very serious wine, and a monumental effort.  The hype is real.


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Nice notes, but 25 followers?!?!.......... C'MON MAN!!!!!!! [snort.gif] neener

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#11 Post by Rich Brown » July 26th, 2019, 9:14 am

Ha ha! Admittedly super weak!! Historically havent really been on Instagram but starting to get into it a little more.

Shooting for at least 30 followers by EOY ;)

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#12 Post by J.Vizuete » July 26th, 2019, 9:22 am

Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am
Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.
May I ask where you found this? My entire state (TX) gets a case of this per year, I’m told
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#13 Post by Robert Broder » July 26th, 2019, 9:32 am

I have always loved this wine. The problem was finding it stateside. I have 3 bottles in my cellar, 1 a 97 and the other 2 the 2000. The 2000 was the last vintage before the 08 and 09. Seems weird having back to back vintages after a gap of 8 years. Problem now is price-unbelievable for a rose. Years ago I paid in the 40's and that seemed like a lot. Just spent a few days in Montreal, and I should have looked for some there.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#14 Post by Doug Schulman » July 26th, 2019, 10:01 am

Wait, people actually drink this wine?!? I thought it had become some sort of commodity. I do think it's a really nice and interesting wine...for the regular retail price of $30-$40. I suspect the hype will die out eventually and we'll be able to find it for that again, once in a while. I can understand people who have never tried it being willing to pay more for the experience. Personally, I far prefer their reds, and those are easy to find at standard markups.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#15 Post by Justin S » July 26th, 2019, 10:32 am

Nice looking cellar.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#16 Post by M Mager » July 26th, 2019, 10:33 am

Doug Schulman wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:01 am
Wait, people actually drink this wine?!? I thought it had become some sort of commodity. I do think it's a really nice and interesting wine...for the regular retail price of $30-$40. I suspect the hype will die out eventually and we'll be able to find it for that again, once in a while. I can understand people who have never tried it being willing to pay more for the experience. Personally, I far prefer their reds, and those are easy to find at standard markups.
Well, I'm just an "n=1" sample, but heck yeah I drink these. Used to drink them all the time back when they were more readily available in distribution. Even as recently as the first couple years of this decade, you could find the 2000 vintage sitting there collecting dust on the shelves of any decent wine shop in the Seattle area (or, if not, they could easily order some from Cavatappi). Back then, when I found out about the long vintage gap (which, if my memory is correct, was a function of a string of vintages where the varieties they co-ferment to make the Rosado - both red and white - didn't ripen in the way they wanted), I did my best to "hoover up" any remaining bottles I could find around here. Since then, I've been rationing. Down to almost my last mixed 1/2 case of 95, 97, 98, and 00 vintages. Had to chuckle a bit when CT showed me that I paid less than $25/bottle for all of them.

For now, I'm just biding my time hoping that, once a few vintages cycle through distribution, the mania will dissipate and these will be back to interesting wines that appeal to old-school Rioja tastes. Though I'm sure that even then prices will be a good bit higher than they were "back in the day". The 2008 was available here locally at $35/bottle (which I think is still pretty reasonable), but on a strict allocation system (all I could score was 2 bottles). I expect the same for the 2009 vintage.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#17 Post by Rich Brown » July 26th, 2019, 10:44 am

Justin S wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:32 am
Nice looking cellar.
Thanks man!

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#18 Post by Chris V. » July 26th, 2019, 11:16 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 9:22 am
Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am
Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.
May I ask where you found this? My entire state (TX) gets a case of this per year, I’m told
Our local Ontario importer. Everything must be sold in full cases when bought directly from importers here by law or else I'm sure they would have been allocating it by the bottle. I guess I was just in the right place at the right time to scoop up the case. Goes without saying but you need to be a resident of Ontario to buy.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#19 Post by Rob_S » July 26th, 2019, 12:56 pm

Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:16 am
J.Vizuete wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 9:22 am
Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am
Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.
May I ask where you found this? My entire state (TX) gets a case of this per year, I’m told
Our local Ontario importer. Everything must be sold in full cases when bought directly from importers here by law or else I'm sure they would have been allocating it by the bottle. I guess I was just in the right place at the right time to scoop up the case. Goes without saying but you need to be a resident of Ontario to buy.
Do they have any left Chris? It's John Hanna right?
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#20 Post by Chris V. » July 26th, 2019, 6:12 pm

Rob_S wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 12:56 pm
Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:16 am
J.Vizuete wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 9:22 am


May I ask where you found this? My entire state (TX) gets a case of this per year, I’m told
Our local Ontario importer. Everything must be sold in full cases when bought directly from importers here by law or else I'm sure they would have been allocating it by the bottle. I guess I was just in the right place at the right time to scoop up the case. Goes without saying but you need to be a resident of Ontario to buy.
Do they have any left Chris? It's John Hanna right?
Emailed you.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#21 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 26th, 2019, 6:25 pm

J.Vizuete wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 9:22 am
Chris V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 7:41 am
Just ordered my 6 pack for $50CAD/$38USD. Gotta rub it in as we usually get awful pricing here.
May I ask where you found this? My entire state (TX) gets a case of this per year, I’m told
Not to mention there’s only a release every decade or so (hyperbole but it isn’t produced every year). This may as well be L’Anglore.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#22 Post by Tom K. » July 27th, 2019, 12:04 am

The reason why this rose tasted so epically different is because it is not a rose, or rosado in Spanish. The LDH rose is technically a clarete which is a blend of red and white grapes fermented on the skins like a red wine....old school...something done in this region, several others in Spain and have seen it other places but not as a actual cultural or legally enforced wine.

The Rioja DOC requires at least 25% of a clarete blend be made from red grape varieties, so in theory a clarete could be made up of 75% of white grapes.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#23 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 27th, 2019, 1:46 am

Tom K. wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 12:04 am
The reason why this rose tasted so epically different is because it is not a rose, or rosado in Spanish. The LDH rose is technically a clarete which is a blend of red and white grapes fermented on the skins like a red wine....old school...something done in this region, several others in Spain and have seen it other places but not as a actual cultural or legally enforced wine.

The Rioja DOC requires at least 25% of a clarete blend be made from red grape varieties, so in theory a clarete could be made up of 75% of white grapes.
Is that so? Because I've had some Spanish claretes and Heredia doesn't taste really like it. It tastes more like a rosé that has been aged for exceptionally long in oak barrels.

Perhaps because - according to the winery - the base blend is "Garnacho (60%), Tempranillo (30%), and Viura (10%), all from our own vineyards", which sounds pretty classic rosado to me.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#24 Post by Tom K. » July 29th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 1:46 am
Tom K. wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 12:04 am
The reason why this rose tasted so epically different is because it is not a rose, or rosado in Spanish. The LDH rose is technically a clarete which is a blend of red and white grapes fermented on the skins like a red wine....old school...something done in this region, several others in Spain and have seen it other places but not as an actual cultural or legally enforced wine.

The Rioja DOC requires at least 25% of a clarete blend be made from red grape varieties, so in theory a clarete could be made up of 75% of white grapes.
Is that so? Because I've had some Spanish claretes and Heredia doesn't taste really like it. It tastes more like a rosé that has been aged for exceptionally long in oak barrels.

Perhaps because - according to the winery - the base blend is "Garnacho (60%), Tempranillo (30%), and Viura (10%), all from our own vineyards", which sounds pretty classic rosado to me.
100% positive LdH is a clarete...the difference between rosado and clarete has nothing to do with long aging barrels. The difference between a clarete and rosado are that the wine is fermented on the skins for a clarete while a rosado is just feremnted juice.

Luis Gutierrez, Wine Advocate
The only Gran Reserva rosé of the Rioja appellation (they were waiting for the appellation's back labels, as they have to print them especially for López de Heredia) makes a glorious comeback with the 2008 Viña Tondonia Rosado Gran Reserva, which follows the previous 2000. This has a completely different profile from the rest of the rosé wines produced in Rioja—and the whole world (I think, as I have not tasted them all!). It really is a "clarete," not a rosé, as it's produced with a mixture of red and white grapes (60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo and 10% Viura) fermented and macerated together. It's a matured and developed rosé aged in used American oak barrels for four years and kept in vat and bottle to be released at age ten.
https://www.robertparker.com/wines/uvrrt4H2doxdyrDWy

"María José López de Heredia claims her family’s rosado is in the tradition of the clarete wines of Rioja, made in the image of 19th-century claret from Bordeaux. She explains, “The founder of the bodega, Don Rafael López de Heredia y Landeta, acquired his vinicultural knowledge in France. On arriving in La Rioja in 1877, he adapted the Rioja method of making clarete, but he literally translated the French word rosé when it came to naming the wine.” The rosado is only made in vintages where enough Garnacha and Viura can be spared from the red and white cuvées. While the current release is 2008, the previous vintage for the wine was 2000 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and possibly 2018 will also be produced). A blend of 60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo, and 10% Viura, the rosado show more kinship to the Viña Tondonia Tinto and Blanco wines than it does to any other rosé. Flavors of tart cherry and brine bring laser-sharp precision to the palate, complemented by a rusty patina that speaks to the oxidative house style."
https://www.guildsomm.com/public_conten ... 1555873370

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#25 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 29th, 2019, 2:43 pm

Tom K. wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 12:00 pm
100% positive LdH is a clarete...the difference between rosado and clarete has nothing to do with long aging barrels. The difference between a clarete and rosado are that the wine is fermented on the skins for a clarete while a rosado is just feremnted juice.

Luis Gutierrez, Wine Advocate
The only Gran Reserva rosé of the Rioja appellation (they were waiting for the appellation's back labels, as they have to print them especially for López de Heredia) makes a glorious comeback with the 2008 Viña Tondonia Rosado Gran Reserva, which follows the previous 2000. This has a completely different profile from the rest of the rosé wines produced in Rioja—and the whole world (I think, as I have not tasted them all!). It really is a "clarete," not a rosé, as it's produced with a mixture of red and white grapes (60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo and 10% Viura) fermented and macerated together. It's a matured and developed rosé aged in used American oak barrels for four years and kept in vat and bottle to be released at age ten.
https://www.robertparker.com/wines/uvrrt4H2doxdyrDWy

"María José López de Heredia claims her family’s rosado is in the tradition of the clarete wines of Rioja, made in the image of 19th-century claret from Bordeaux. She explains, “The founder of the bodega, Don Rafael López de Heredia y Landeta, acquired his vinicultural knowledge in France. On arriving in La Rioja in 1877, he adapted the Rioja method of making clarete, but he literally translated the French word rosé when it came to naming the wine.” The rosado is only made in vintages where enough Garnacha and Viura can be spared from the red and white cuvées. While the current release is 2008, the previous vintage for the wine was 2000 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and possibly 2018 will also be produced). A blend of 60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo, and 10% Viura, the rosado show more kinship to the Viña Tondonia Tinto and Blanco wines than it does to any other rosé. Flavors of tart cherry and brine bring laser-sharp precision to the palate, complemented by a rusty patina that speaks to the oxidative house style."
https://www.guildsomm.com/public_conten ... 1555873370
I know that the oak aging has nothing to do with a wine being a clarete or not, since I've tasted claretes that have been both oak-aged and aged in stainless steel. I just commented how Heredia Rosado tastes like. And you are incorrect in that rosado is just fermented juice, since basically all Rioja Rosados see skin contact - Tempranillo isn't an intensively colored grape variety and Garnacha is even less so, so the wines must see some maceration to color the wines pink. Normally from a few hours to something of a day. Also, the Rioja DOCa requires at least 25% of a Rosado to be made from red grape varieties - not clarete, since it is not a legally defined wine style.

How claretes differ from rosés is that they feel more like pale red wines that see several days' worth of maceration. Most of the claretes I've tasted have had something like a 50/50 blend of white and red varieties with maceration times of several days. Now, as Heredia's Rosado didn't taste like these claretes I had tasted (well, neither does it taste like any other wine, come to think of it), I asked if it is truly a clarete. In essence, do you have any idea how much maceration time Heredia Rosado sees? All the sources I can find just say "co-fermented and macerated with the skins", but none of them says a single word about the maceration time. I have always thought it was in the range of a few hours, but if the maceration time truly is counted in days and not just in hours, I'll happily accept Heredia Rosado as a clarete.
Last edited by Otto Forsberg on July 29th, 2019, 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#26 Post by Tom K. » July 29th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 2:43 pm
Tom K. wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 12:00 pm
And you are incorrect in that rosado is just fermented juice, since basically all Rioja Rosados see skin contact - Tempranillo isn't an intensively colored grape variety and Garnacha is even less so, so the wines must see some maceration to color the wines pink.
- Sorry, but you are not correct here as rosado is fermented as just juice. Yes, it gets the color from a pre-fermentation soak with skins but that is not fermentation, this is maceration. The must/skins/pulp are separated from the skins for fermentation after a short period BEFORE fermentation starts. You are talking vinification, the entire process, and I am talking just the fermentation part of the vinification. A clarete on the other hand is fermented with the skins. THIS is the difference in how they are both made.

"The grape is destemmed, lightly crushed and sent to draining tanks. Here, it is left to macerate for a short period. It is then pressed and left for a day for the suspended particles to settle. The clean must is then put in controlled temperature fermenters."
https://www.riojawine.com/us/en-us/rioj ... nd-ageing/

As for if LdH is or is not a clarete, I have no reason to not believe Maria Jose herself who manages LdH:
"María José López de Heredia claims her family’s rosado is in the tradition of the clarete wines of Rioja, made in the image of 19th-century claret from Bordeaux. She explains, “The founder of the bodega, Don Rafael López de Heredia y Landeta, acquired his vinicultural knowledge in France. On arriving in La Rioja in 1877, he adapted the Rioja method of making clarete, but he literally translated the French word rosé when it came to naming the wine.” The rosado is only made in vintages where enough Garnacha and Viura can be spared from the red and white cuvées. While the current release is 2008, the previous vintage for the wine was 2000 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and possibly 2018 will also be produced). A blend of 60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo, and 10% Viura, the rosado show more kinship to the Viña Tondonia Tinto and Blanco wines than it does to any other rosé. Flavors of tart cherry and brine bring laser-sharp precision to the palate, complemented by a rusty patina that speaks to the oxidative house style."
https://www.guildsomm.com/public_conten ... 1555873370
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#27 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 29th, 2019, 10:42 pm

Tom K. wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 7:50 pm
- Sorry, but you are not correct here as rosado is fermented as just juice. Yes, it gets the color from a pre-fermentation soak with skins but that is not fermentation, this is maceration. The must/skins/pulp are separated from the skins for fermentation after a short period BEFORE fermentation starts. You are talking vinification, the entire process, and I am talking just the fermentation part of the vinification. A clarete on the other hand is fermented with the skins. THIS is the difference in how they are both made.

"The grape is destemmed, lightly crushed and sent to draining tanks. Here, it is left to macerate for a short period. It is then pressed and left for a day for the suspended particles to settle. The clean must is then put in controlled temperature fermenters."
https://www.riojawine.com/us/en-us/rioj ... nd-ageing/

As for if LdH is or is not a clarete, I have no reason to not believe Maria Jose herself who manages LdH:
"María José López de Heredia claims her family’s rosado is in the tradition of the clarete wines of Rioja, made in the image of 19th-century claret from Bordeaux. She explains, “The founder of the bodega, Don Rafael López de Heredia y Landeta, acquired his vinicultural knowledge in France. On arriving in La Rioja in 1877, he adapted the Rioja method of making clarete, but he literally translated the French word rosé when it came to naming the wine.” The rosado is only made in vintages where enough Garnacha and Viura can be spared from the red and white cuvées. While the current release is 2008, the previous vintage for the wine was 2000 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and possibly 2018 will also be produced). A blend of 60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo, and 10% Viura, the rosado show more kinship to the Viña Tondonia Tinto and Blanco wines than it does to any other rosé. Flavors of tart cherry and brine bring laser-sharp precision to the palate, complemented by a rusty patina that speaks to the oxidative house style."
https://www.guildsomm.com/public_conten ... 1555873370
Ok, so you're saying that the maceration happens only during the fermentation? From you original message of "only fermented juice" you just made it sound like there was no maceration at all for the other Rosados, which confused me.

However, this still sounds slightly weird to me. For example making saignée rosé is allowed in Rioja and in this style maceration happens during fermentation - one just bleeds off some pale, partly fermented must after a short maceration time and either lets it finish dry or adds it to a Rosado. And while certainly most modern rosados are made by cold macerating the grapes before the fermentation, it still sounds odd to say that this is the only way to make rosé and the key factor between a rosado and a clarete. If somebody made a traditional rosado by crushing the fruit and letting the grapes macerate over some hours to half a day while the fermentation kicks in, would this make the wine a rosado or a clarete to you?

And if María LdH says so, I guess it also means that Heredia Rosado actually sees some noticeable skin contact then. I'd really love to hear how much that really is - and if somebody has some in-depth knowledge on the matter, please chip in.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#28 Post by Tom K. » July 30th, 2019, 4:06 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 10:42 pm
Tom K. wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 7:50 pm
- Sorry, but you are not correct here as rosado is fermented as just juice. Yes, it gets the color from a pre-fermentation soak with skins but that is not fermentation, this is maceration. The must/skins/pulp are separated from the skins for fermentation after a short period BEFORE fermentation starts. You are talking vinification, the entire process, and I am talking just the fermentation part of the vinification. A clarete on the other hand is fermented with the skins. THIS is the difference in how they are both made.

"The grape is destemmed, lightly crushed and sent to draining tanks. Here, it is left to macerate for a short period. It is then pressed and left for a day for the suspended particles to settle. The clean must is then put in controlled temperature fermenters."
https://www.riojawine.com/us/en-us/rioj ... nd-ageing/

As for if LdH is or is not a clarete, I have no reason to not believe Maria Jose herself who manages LdH:
"María José López de Heredia claims her family’s rosado is in the tradition of the clarete wines of Rioja, made in the image of 19th-century claret from Bordeaux. She explains, “The founder of the bodega, Don Rafael López de Heredia y Landeta, acquired his vinicultural knowledge in France. On arriving in La Rioja in 1877, he adapted the Rioja method of making clarete, but he literally translated the French word rosé when it came to naming the wine.” The rosado is only made in vintages where enough Garnacha and Viura can be spared from the red and white cuvées. While the current release is 2008, the previous vintage for the wine was 2000 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and possibly 2018 will also be produced). A blend of 60% Garnacha, 30% Tempranillo, and 10% Viura, the rosado show more kinship to the Viña Tondonia Tinto and Blanco wines than it does to any other rosé. Flavors of tart cherry and brine bring laser-sharp precision to the palate, complemented by a rusty patina that speaks to the oxidative house style."
https://www.guildsomm.com/public_conten ... 1555873370
Ok, so you're saying that the maceration happens only during the fermentation? From you original message of "only fermented juice" you just made it sound like there was no maceration at all for the other Rosados, which confused me.

However, this still sounds slightly weird to me. For example making saignée rosé is allowed in Rioja and in this style maceration happens during fermentation - one just bleeds off some pale, partly fermented must after a short maceration time and either lets it finish dry or adds it to a Rosado. And while certainly most modern rosados are made by cold macerating the grapes before the fermentation, it still sounds odd to say that this is the only way to make rosé and the key factor between a rosado and a clarete. If somebody made a traditional rosado by crushing the fruit and letting the grapes macerate over some hours to half a day while the fermentation kicks in, would this make the wine a rosado or a clarete to you?

And if María LdH says so, I guess it also means that Heredia Rosado actually sees some noticeable skin contact then. I'd really love to hear how much that really is - and if somebody has some in-depth knowledge on the matter, please chip in.
Maceration is just the contact of juice to skin. It can happen before fermentation, during fermentation and even after fermentation.

Winemaking for the most part, as you allude to, is not an absolute or binary process, so exceptions always exist to how some people might do things a little different here and there.

Rosado tends to get its color with a soak before fermentation starts and then fermentation is just the juice as they are separated. If the musts were not removed at some point it would end up being a red wine.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#29 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 30th, 2019, 4:34 am

Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 4:06 am
Maceration is just the contact of juice to skin. It can happen before fermentation, during fermentation and even after fermentation.

Winemaking for the most part, as you allude to, is not an absolute or binary process, so exceptions always exist to how some people might do things a little different here and there.

Rosado tends to get its color with a soak before fermentation starts and then fermentation is just the juice as they are separated. If the musts were not removed at some point it would end up being a red wine.
These are quite obvious facts, none of which answered any of my questions.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#30 Post by Tom K. » July 30th, 2019, 5:13 am

dupe
Last edited by Tom K. on July 30th, 2019, 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#31 Post by Tom K. » July 30th, 2019, 5:20 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 4:34 am
Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 4:06 am
Maceration is just the contact of juice to skin. It can happen before fermentation, during fermentation and even after fermentation.

Winemaking for the most part, as you allude to, is not an absolute or binary process, so exceptions always exist to how some people might do things a little different here and there.

Rosado tends to get its color with a soak before fermentation starts and then fermentation is just the juice as they are separated. If the musts were not removed at some point it would end up being a red wine.
These are quite obvious facts, none of which answered any of my questions.
Your question above: "Ok, so you're saying that the maceration happens only during the fermentation?"
My answer above: Maceration is just the contact of juice to skin. It can happen before fermentation, during fermentation and even after fermentation. And yes, these are very basic points about making a rose wine.

"From you original message of "only fermented juice" you just made it sound like there was no maceration at all for the other Rosados, which confused me."
Sorry to confuse you, I just took it for granted that maceration can be done on a pink wine, or even blending but that's a whole other concept off track.

But I guess what you are asking is, is how long the LdH rose is macerated on the skins if truly a clarete? For that you should email the winery. If Maria, who runs the winery, says it is a clarete then I am just fine taking her word for it. If you are not then that is your prerogative. I, unfortunately, have not come across anything that points to how long it is macerated for.

If you have any other facts or information cited elsewhere on this or any other things you are citing it would be great if you shared them like I have. Always great to share more information!
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#32 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 30th, 2019, 5:26 am

Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:13 am
Your question above: "Ok, so you're saying that the maceration happens only during the fermentation?"
My answer above: Maceration is just the contact of juice to skin. It can happen before fermentation, during fermentation and even after fermentation. And yes, these are very basic points about making a rose wine.
My question referred to claretes, not winemaking in general. I apologize if I was unclear on this question.
Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:13 am
"From you original message of "only fermented juice" you just made it sound like there was no maceration at all for the other Rosados, which confused me."
Sorry to confuse you, I just took it for granted that maceration can be done on a pink wine, or even blending but that's a whole other concept off track.

But I guess what you are asking is, is how long the LdH rose is macerated on the skins if truly a clarete? For that you should email the winery. If Maria, who runs the winery, says it is a clarete then I am just fine taking her word for it. If you are not then that is up to you to intepret as you feel you want or need to until you can find out how long it is macerated for. I have not seen anything that points
I already said above that if they say so, I'm willing to accept is as clarete. However, that implies the wine sees some prolonger maceration and I asked whether anyone knows how long the wine macerates with the skins (during the fermentation).

However, since you originally defined clarete as a wine that sees white grapes and the skins are macerated during the fermentation (as opposed to the pre-fermentation cold soak), I asked whether you'd then consider a wine with a minimal amount of white grapes in the blend and having a few hours of skin maceration during the fermentation with no pre-fermentation cold soak, would you consider this as clarete? To me, this sounds like a rosado and a wine that would have very little to do with those claretes I've tasted, but according to your criteria, it would be clarete. I just wanted some clarification concenrning this point.

Furthermore, I really didn't understand what was so special about a clarete that would be 75% white grapes warranting a special mention - basically any Rioja Rosado could be made that way according to the appellation laws, yet I ahven't seen anybody making a fuss over this fact.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#33 Post by Tom K. » July 30th, 2019, 7:15 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:26 am
Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:13 am
However, since you originally defined clarete as a wine that sees white grapes and the skins are macerated during the fermentation (as opposed to the pre-fermentation cold soak), I asked whether you'd then consider a wine with a minimal amount of white grapes in the blend and having a few hours of skin maceration during the fermentation with no pre-fermentation cold soak, would you consider this as clarete?
This would seem to be like a saignee, as you remove the juice from the skins during fermentation...not sure if anyone does that or why they would if making a rose wine, be it either rosado or clarete.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#34 Post by Markus S » July 30th, 2019, 7:17 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 29th, 2019, 10:42 pm
And if María LdH says so, I guess it also means that Heredia Rosado actually sees some noticeable skin contact then. I'd really love to hear how much that really is - and if somebody has some in-depth knowledge on the matter, please chip in.
shhh...Trade secrets. [inquisition.gif]
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#35 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 30th, 2019, 7:41 am

Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 7:15 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:26 am
Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:13 am
However, since you originally defined clarete as a wine that sees white grapes and the skins are macerated during the fermentation (as opposed to the pre-fermentation cold soak), I asked whether you'd then consider a wine with a minimal amount of white grapes in the blend and having a few hours of skin maceration during the fermentation with no pre-fermentation cold soak, would you consider this as clarete?
This would seem to be like a saignee, as you remove the juice from the skins during fermentation...not sure if anyone does that or why they would if making a rose wine, be it either rosado or clarete.
It would be saignée rosé if you took a part of the wine away to be vinified as a rosé, while retaining the other part that remained with the grape skins to be vinified as a red wine. And that's exactly why one would do that - in order to make a more concentrated red.

However, it wouldn't be a saignée rosé if you vinified the whole must as a rosé wine, now would it? Otherwise wouldn't LdH Rosado would be a saignée rosé as well by that logic? Or do you think that the skins are kept in contact with Heredia's Rosado until the fermentation has finished?

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#36 Post by Tom K. » July 30th, 2019, 8:07 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 7:41 am
Tom K. wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 7:15 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 5:26 am


However, since you originally defined clarete as a wine that sees white grapes and the skins are macerated during the fermentation (as opposed to the pre-fermentation cold soak), I asked whether you'd then consider a wine with a minimal amount of white grapes in the blend and having a few hours of skin maceration during the fermentation with no pre-fermentation cold soak, would you consider this as clarete?
This would seem to be like a saignee, as you remove the juice from the skins during fermentation...not sure if anyone does that or why they would if making a rose wine, be it either rosado or clarete.
It would be saignée rosé if you took a part of the wine away to be vinified as a rosé, while retaining the other part that remained with the grape skins to be vinified as a red wine. And that's exactly why one would do that - in order to make a more concentrated red.

However, it wouldn't be a saignée rosé if you vinified the whole must as a rosé wine, now would it? Otherwise wouldn't LdH Rosado would be a saignée rosé as well by that logic? Or do you think that the skins are kept in contact with Heredia's Rosado until the fermentation has finished?
Right, when you asked the question if the wine was removed from the skins during fermntation is it a rosado...no, I think it would be a saignee. If you took it all off thouhg? Not aware of anyone that does that and if they do what they call it.

Again, for LdH, I'd just email them and ask them....they are pretty responsive.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#37 Post by Mel Hill » July 30th, 2019, 8:15 am

EB0598C8-09D9-4304-BEEE-79FF6C3EC13B.jpeg
Enjoyed a bottle of the 2008 this spring
Best value on the list at $88

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#38 Post by Peter Petersen » July 30th, 2019, 10:12 am

I need to try their Rosé sometime, but each time I stand in front of a bottle in a store and see that it's $80-100 I walk away. I guess it must be demand that makes them so expensive as their other wines seems excellent values.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#39 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 30th, 2019, 11:47 am

Peter Petersen wrote:
July 30th, 2019, 10:12 am
I need to try their Rosé sometime, but each time I stand in front of a bottle in a store and see that it's $80-100 I walk away. I guess it must be demand that makes them so expensive as their other wines seems excellent values.
Understandable. I've never paid above $30 for any of my Rosados. [snort.gif]

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#40 Post by S teve R edenbaugh » August 10th, 2019, 5:56 pm

Just picked up six bottles of the newly released '09....for $24.99 each...at Binny's, of course.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#41 Post by Rich Brown » August 10th, 2019, 6:07 pm

S teve R edenbaugh wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 5:56 pm
Just picked up six bottles of the newly released '09....for $24.99 each...at Binny's, of course.
I'll just say that I REALLY wish I could have gotten mine for anywhere close to $25. Nice score!!

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#42 Post by EHeffner » August 11th, 2019, 7:55 am

Local place has these listed $134.99 on website but when they put them in cooler, the sticker price was $89.99 as a “discount” for local buyers. Pulled the trigger on one because YOLO. Still have 19 bottles or so.
Last edited by EHeffner on August 11th, 2019, 8:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#43 Post by S teve R edenbaugh » August 11th, 2019, 8:01 am

Rich, it was a lucky score...and I really agree with your assessment of the wine. Frankly, I've been "rosed" out lately, but this is certainly something completely different. Cheers!

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#44 Post by Tom K. » August 11th, 2019, 8:07 am

S teve R edenbaugh wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:01 am
Rich, it was a lucky score...and I really agree with your assessment of the wine. Frankly, I've been "rosed" out lately, but this is certainly something completely different. Cheers!
Rose overload is for sure here...love it but it's ubiquitous on the general level at this point!
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#45 Post by joeduncan » August 11th, 2019, 9:10 am

S teve R edenbaugh wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:01 am
Rich, it was a lucky score...and I really agree with your assessment of the wine. Frankly, I've been "rosed" out lately, but this is certainly something completely different. Cheers!
I think I tried to buy these from binny's online only to find they don't ship outside IL.

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#46 Post by Dale McClaran » August 11th, 2019, 10:37 am

Rich Brown wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Wow.  This is a crazy wine, and wildly different than any rose that I’ve ever had before (in a good way). In fact, if I tasted this blind and blindfolded so that I couldn’t see the color, I don’t know what I’d be guessing, but probably not rose.  Speaking of color, this has to be one of the prettiest looking wines I’ve ever seen.  Kinda like a bright/fluorescent orangish, reddish, salmon with a tinge of peach.  Picture melting together an Orange, Red, yellow, and peach Jolly Rancher.  On the nose, this is nice, but not overly expressive, and certainly not the strongest feature of the wine.  More earthy type notes with some slight strawberry, and a tiny hint of oxidation.  In the mouth, unlike their blancs (and the nose), there is really no oxidation at all.  It’s incredibly fresh (especially given it’s a 10 year old rose) and literally bursting with flavors.  Really hard to pin down as there’s a LOT going on, but I’m getting strawberries, freshly picked raspberries, earth, damp leaves and leather, which are all blending together seamlessly with a generous amount of acidity creating a unique and incredibly satisfying mix of bright fruit and savory notes, which all end with a very long and mineral driven finish that lasts upwards of 45 seconds.  Refreshing and contemplative at the same time.  A very serious wine, and a monumental effort.  The hype is real.


[media] [/media]
I keep meaning to post on your thread Rich, but I keep spacing it. Anyway, this too (the 09) was my first RLH Rosado, and your note and experience was almost identical to mine. Worth $200? No way, BUT it was a hell of an journey and I would pull the trigger without hesitation at $60 or below.
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#47 Post by Rich Brown » August 11th, 2019, 11:51 am

Good stuff Dale! And totally agree - if I found the wine for $60 or under, I would buy every bottle they had without thinking twice. Such a crazy unique wine!

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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#48 Post by Claus Jeppesen » August 11th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Cmon. It is a Rosado GRAN Reserva
Worth every penny
2000, 2008, 2009
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#49 Post by EHeffner » August 12th, 2019, 8:02 pm

Say you had a single bottle of 2009, would you drink it sooner rather than later? I usually like my roses and whites within a year or two of vintage date. Obviously this wine is a different animal. I’m not trying to let it sit for a decade, but not sure if it would greatly benefit from a year or two, or might as well try it now for the freshness as that’s how I mainly enjoy other roses?! The struggle of having a single bottle lol
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Re: TN: 2009 R. Lopez Heredia Rose - Vina Tondonia

#50 Post by Jason T » August 12th, 2019, 11:59 pm

Dangit, 2009 not available yet in the UK.
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