2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

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Nathan V.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#51 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 6:19 am

Peter Valiquette wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm
Curious to learn if you find it better than a few of the other well known producers sub $200 Cote de Nuits bottlings such as:

Mugnier Marechale
Roumier Bussiere
Dujac MSD 1er
The Roumier is generally above $200 and is an idiosyncratic wine anyway. The Mugnier is very good, just not as good within the parameters the OP set. The Dujac is shrug emoji for me, but it's not something I drink regularly or hunt down.

Given that all my favorites are above $200, I'm moving towards begrudgingly admitting Fu might be correct here given the very limited parameters that he has set out. I do have a producer in my back pocket, but I think I'm weird in my taste for them.

Fortunately, Lignier has been around a long time and I have a long relationship with Rosenthal so my allocation won't be effected.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#52 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 6:25 am

George Chadwick wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 7:39 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:41 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm


I think you're thinking of Dominique Laurent; this is Laurent Lignier. Definitely not a lot of new oak.
I'm easily confused ;) Yes, George does collect Dominique Laurent, but I also have some Hubert Lignier in my notes that he's brought. Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
Alan yes to both. You and I attended a lunch recently where I brought a magnum of 1990 Hubert Lignier Morey St. Denis VV 1990, it was in great shape and showed well. It showed no oak. Fresh and long. I used to buy Hubert Lignier Clos de la Roche 2002 and 2003 (the latter sadly subtitled Cuvee Romain) and would immediately drink them about six years ago. I followed the tragic, then contentious, Lignier saga and learned that Lucie et Auguste Lignier 2004 and 2005 are Hubert Lignier juice at half the price and I've drunk a lot of LA Lignier Clos de la Roche and Morey 1er from those vintages and have brought them at least once to our Monday dinner group.

But the oaky guy I bring everywhere is Dominique Laurent. I love 50 percent of his wines. I brought to my June 30 SF tasting his 1993 Nuits St. Georges Les Vaucrains and a leaky (or I would have kept it longer) 2006 Clos de la Roche. Jim Cowan wrote notes here on both wines which I agree with, the former was brisk and excellent IMO, the latter not tasting oaky syrupy but the oak made the flavors muddied and indistinct, which might be a characteristic of 2006 overall.

The best tasting wine I've had in 2019 was a Dominique Laurent Les Amoureuses 1992. A couple of years ago I loved his 1994.
Wow! The 1990 in magnum! That wine is a legend. I have a strong fondness for the 1993, the first vintage that I bought. Lignier's 1993s were amazing.

What happened with the Ligniers was really sad and I find it a little off-putting that people are intimating that the wines are taking a step up. They aren't, they're climbing back to where Hubert and Romain had the wines for decades before a serious of terrible events derailed the domain.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#53 Post by PCLIN » July 25th, 2019, 6:59 am

A. So wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:17 am
PCLIN wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 9:52 pm
c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 10:49 am
In the past few months I've had the 2001, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015, 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV and they've all been glorious burgundy shooting way past their price point of $170-200. The last few vintages have been utterly spectacular as Laurent is fine tuning it more and more. I'm trying to think of another red burgundy under $200 available on wine-searcher (I don't want to hear, I paid $100 for my Rousseau chambertin) that hits higher.

Supposedly ‘02 Hubert Lignier MSD 1er VV is the best of them all, it’s also one of the hardest wine to source, took me almost 2 years just to secure a 6-pack. Wines just in, yet to open any. I think for the first 15 to 20 year, this bottling is better the CdlR.

Sadly with this thread, securing this bottling would be even more difficult in the future.
Didn't know that. That would have been Romain/Hubert then right? Found a case at an auction this year and paid a hair over the OP price limit. I'll make a point to open one soon.

‘02 was made by Romain, I think he was the winemaker until ‘04 vintage.

Lucky you to secure one case of ‘02. I did manage to get a case of ‘01 MSD 1er VV years ago, opened 3/12 so far, and every bottle was mighty good.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#54 Post by RyanC » July 25th, 2019, 7:25 am

The Lignier MSD VV is indeed delicious. Some of my favorites in the $150-200 range:

Back-vintage Jadot Beze
Clavelier C-M 1er 'Combe d'Orveaux'
Bruno Clair Cazetiers
Chevillon LSG
Gouges LSG
Lafarge 1ers
Mugneret-Gibourg Chaignots and Feusselottes
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#55 Post by Mark Y » July 25th, 2019, 9:20 am

David_K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:33 pm
I admit I had a chuckle at the line of "shooting way past their price point of $170-200," spoken as if it's a daily drinker. I guess it is for you.
Clearly you don't follow Fu's IG.. I chuckled as well, wondering why Sir Fu decided to wander into the commoner's realm to have a measly <$200 1er cru - must be in the name of science and learning..

The trip down commoner lane must've tired him out, as he quickly retired to his chambers with some McD filet o'fish, and some Keller Gmax/Krug CdM. ;)
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#56 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am

Fu I agree with you that the Lignier MSD VV of late is super terrific.

I think there a few other greats of late. Trapet has been blistering lately. Lafon Santenots has been on fire. M-G Chaignots, Bachelet Corbeaux, Dujac, combottes, msd, Chambolle

...it's a fun exercise!
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#57 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 25th, 2019, 10:38 am

Fred C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Please report back on this. I recently grabbed a few at $80/bottle.
A wow wine....for a Gevrey villages. Blackish fruits; dry but the texture of a sirop and the concentration to match. I've had several 1999 villages reds over the last few months to see where things are with this vintage...and, frankly, I'm wowed, more so than I expected. A Daniel (Patrice) Rion Vosne villages was very much in the style of this one, albeit with the reddish and more beguiling/seductive character of Vosne vs. Gevrey. Both were just delicious and fruity, with no signs of need to further age them, though they will doubtlessly last and last. Nice to see, frankly....and a Georges Mugneret VR this spring was their equal. The surprise , to me, given their concentration and fruit, covering the obvious structure, is how tasty they are now, given the vintage's overcropping. (Of course, these are, IMO, top producers' villages examples.) The wine was a little tight at first, but....with abundant aeration, blossomed. (FWIW, the Rion was much more open from the start, not surprisingly, given the village.)

I'm really looking forward to trying some 1er crus from 1999 starting in 2020. I suspect they will be even better....but...that will really be somthing if they are. These 1999s are 1990-like....a big compliment IMO.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#58 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 11:17 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
Fu I agree with you that the Lignier MSD VV of late is super terrific.

I think there a few other greats of late. Trapet has been blistering lately. Lafon Santenots has been on fire. Dujac msd, Chambolle
I don't think any of these are at the level of the Lignier VV.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
M-G Chaignots, Bachelet Corbeaux, Dujac, combottes,
All of these are > $200.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
...it's a fun exercise!
It's a difficult and somewhat depressing exercise.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#59 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 11:20 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
Fu I agree with you that the Lignier MSD VV of late is super terrific.

I think there a few other greats of late. Trapet has been blistering lately. Lafon Santenots has been on fire. M-G Chaignots, Bachelet Corbeaux, Dujac, combottes, msd, Chambolle

...it's a fun exercise!
As is often the case, these threads are extremely educational in terms of things I put on my list of things to try, and very bad for my wallet. newhere
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#60 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 25th, 2019, 11:26 am

Dang Nathan, that is depressing!

Bachelet '15 was $164 for me and '16 was $171... have not prices '17s yet scared to look.
Same for Chaignots M-G... scared to look at 2017 dang it!
I wouldn't bicker over the Lafon, but I do love them. Have you tried what Trapet is doing lately?
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#61 Post by Fred C » July 25th, 2019, 11:33 am

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:38 am
Fred C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Please report back on this. I recently grabbed a few at $80/bottle.
A wow wine....for a Gevrey villages. Blackish fruits; dry but the texture of a sirop and the concentration to match. I've had several 1999 villages reds over the last few months to see where things are with this vintage...and, frankly, I'm wowed, more so than I expected. A Daniel (Patrice) Rion Vosne villages was very much in the style of this one, albeit with the reddish and more beguiling/seductive character of Vosne vs. Gevrey. Both were just delicious and fruity, with no signs of need to further age them, though they will doubtlessly last and last. Nice to see, frankly....and a Georges Mugneret VR this spring was their equal. The surprise , to me, given their concentration and fruit, covering the obvious structure, is how tasty they are now, given the vintage's overcropping. (Of course, these are, IMO, top producers' villages examples.) The wine was a little tight at first, but....with abundant aeration, blossomed. (FWIW, the Rion was much more open from the start, not surprisingly, given the village.)

I'm really looking forward to trying some 1er crus from 1999 starting in 2020. I suspect they will be even better....but...that will really be somthing if they are. These 1999s are 1990-like....a big compliment IMO.
I think all signs point to the 99 being the best for red burgundy since 78. The GCs are still tight while the 1ers are young but starting to be accessible. As for 99 vs 90, my sample size is very small but I’m leaning towards 99>93>=90. Haven’t had enough/any 91 to place in that equation.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#62 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 11:34 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:26 am
Dang Nathan, that is depressing!

Bachelet '15 was $164 for me and '16 was $171... have not prices '17s yet scared to look.
Same for Chaignots M-G... scared to look at 2017 dang it!
I wouldn't bicker over the Lafon, but I do love them. Have you tried what Trapet is doing lately?
Yeah, I didn't pay over $200 for any of those either but Fu clearly stated things on the market available on wine-searcher and I inferred from 20-15-2016. I think the point is, if you wanted to go out and buy a single today and $200 was a hard max, this is the best wine. As much as it pains me, I'm having a hard time coming up with an alternative.

I've always found the Lafon to be blocky for Volnay and not really my jam, though I still think it is a good wine. I just don't buy it. I love Trapet at the high end (where they can be a relative value) but I don't think the under $200 wines are near the Lignier.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#63 Post by pnitze » July 25th, 2019, 12:27 pm

I agree that the Lafon Santenots is “blocky.” It is a very rich wine, and so it is often a crowd pleaser, but it often presents as muddy and lacking detail. The 2010 version is an exception, and is probably the best version of that wine I’ve tried (the 2002 and 1999 are also top notch). It might hold its own against the 2010 Lignier MSD 1er cru.

I am mystified why Lignier doesn’t get more attention. The wines are sensational these days up and down the scale. If you haven’t tried it, the Nuits St Georges 1er cru “Les Didiers” (Hospices fruit) is an excellent wine and can be had for less than $100. Not as good as the MSD 1er cru, but half the price.

Here is my list of competitors at the same price range, though I completely agree the Lignier MSD 1er cru is hard to beat:
Chandon de Briailles Corton Bressandes
Denis Mortet GC Lavaux St Jacques 1er cru (if you can handle the lush/extracted profile)
Pierre Duroche Lavaux St Jacques 1er cru VV 1923
Mugneret-Gibourg NSG Chaignots 1er cru
Domaine Fourrier GC Cherbaudes 1er cru (perhaps the most underrated Fourrier IMO)
Domaine Coquard Loison Fleurot Echezeaux
Domaine Launay-Horiot Pommard Rugiens 1er cru
Domaine Bruno Clair GC Clos St Jacques or Cazetiers 1er cru
Domaine Jean-Marc Bouley Volnay Clos des Chenes
Domaine Frederic Esmonin Ruchottes Chambertin (a weirdly underrated wine)
Domaine Meo-Camuzet NSG Les Boudots 1er cru
Chateau de la Tour Clos Vougeot VV
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#64 Post by pnitze » July 25th, 2019, 12:45 pm

One other wine to throw in the mix. For the first time in 2017, Henri Gouges is releasing an old vines version of Clos des Porrets labeled “Hors d’Age”. Should retail around $135. No tasting notes yet, but I bet it would give the Lignier some real competition.

http://winehog.org/visit-domaine-gouges ... age-37328/
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#65 Post by Howard Camhi » July 25th, 2019, 1:00 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm
M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm
*** and the the Gevrey "Combettes" ***
Combottes [cheers.gif]

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#66 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 25th, 2019, 1:16 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:17 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
Fu I agree with you that the Lignier MSD VV of late is super terrific.

I think there a few other greats of late. Trapet has been blistering lately. Lafon Santenots has been on fire. Dujac msd, Chambolle
I don't think any of these are at the level of the Lignier VV.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
M-G Chaignots, Bachelet Corbeaux, Dujac, combottes,
All of these are > $200.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
...it's a fun exercise!
It's a difficult and somewhat depressing exercise.
M-G Chaignots is >$200 because the Gibourg label also has a halo effect these days. Meanwhile, 2015 and 2017 Gouges Chaignots are both on Wine-Searcher at $70 and Gouges is not a lesser producer than Gibourg. People who'd rather spend $200 than $70 might still prefer Gibourg's though.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#67 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 25th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Howard Camhi wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:00 pm
Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm
M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm
*** and the the Gevrey "Combettes" ***
Combottes [cheers.gif]
Hi, Howard. You confused me there...I was trying to find where I wrote "Combettes" and couldn't . Then I re-read.

Hope we meet again sometime!!

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#68 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm

I’ll go back to your original thought, Nathan: Chevillon LSG and Cailles. Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)

I like Lignier’s MSD VV very much, but it’s not at this level IMO.

Not ready to put the Gouges LSG there.

There are probably others, but none I’ve had as much experience with.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#69 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)
Written like a man who's not buying Lafarge these days. [snort.gif] neener Starting from 2015 it's been well over $200 (unfortunately - it would have been first on my list).
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#70 Post by Fred C » July 25th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Bertheau? Even the Bonnes Mares can be found sub $200.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#71 Post by alan weinberg » July 25th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Fred C wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Bertheau? Even the Bonnes Mares can be found sub $200.
if you want 03 and 11 . . .

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#72 Post by Fred C » July 25th, 2019, 3:08 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 3:05 pm
Fred C wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Bertheau? Even the Bonnes Mares can be found sub $200.
if you want 03 and 11 . . .
$198 in West Sussex for the 2013. Just made the cutoff.

http://www.fourwallswine.com/index.php? ... m=CDN13255

Also $198 for the 13 Amoureuses at Farr Vintners.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#73 Post by Danius Barzdukas » July 25th, 2019, 4:19 pm

I really don't understand why people who can spend $200 for a bottle of wine include the price when making an assessment of the wine's value. At that price, does it really matter if it is a 'value' or not? If you can afford such wine, it doesn't seem like it should be an issue when discussing a wine. It is a luxury good at that point. Not some sort of value. Why not assess it like a piece of music, like a CD that costs the same for everyone, and just evaluate it in terms of what it provides for what it is- the expression of those vineyards.

I have always wondered why this wine is more valued than the Chaffots or Riotte. Are the Faconnieres and Chenevery vineyards that good? (I have bought some Stephane Magnien Faconnieres assuming that this is the case.)Should they be extensions of Clos de la Roche? It is interesting that Lignier also makes a Chenevery. Has anyone had it? If so, is it as good? One interesting thing about Morey is that it is hard to find wines from several of the vineyards.I have considered trying Lignier's Blanchard or Clos Baulet, but have never gotten around to it.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#74 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 6:23 pm

Danius Barzdukas wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 4:19 pm
I really don't understand why people who can spend $200 for a bottle of wine include the price when making an assessment of the wine's value. At that price, does it really matter if it is a 'value' or not? If you can afford such wine, it doesn't seem like it should be an issue when discussing a wine. It is a luxury good at that point. Not some sort of value. Why not assess it like a piece of music, like a CD that costs the same for everyone, and just evaluate it in terms of what it provides for what it is- the expression of those vineyards.
Like many things in life, it’s relative.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#75 Post by Peter Valiquette » July 25th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:19 am
Peter Valiquette wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm
Curious to learn if you find it better than a few of the other well known producers sub $200 Cote de Nuits bottlings such as:

Mugnier Marechale
Roumier Bussiere
Dujac MSD 1er
The Roumier is generally above $200 and is an idiosyncratic wine anyway. The Mugnier is very good, just not as good within the parameters the OP set. The Dujac is shrug emoji for me, but it's not something I drink regularly or hunt down.
I found the 2014 Roumier Bussiere a few months ago for less than $150. The 2016 Mugnier Marechale likewise was around $140 just a few weeks ago.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#76 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 25th, 2019, 7:12 pm

This is a good thread. There are a ton of really great Burgundies being bandied about here.

Dang Nathan, I need to come back up to the triangle and drink some wines with you. You are yanking some nice corks.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#77 Post by mdavis » July 25th, 2019, 8:33 pm

I paid less than $200 for 2016 Barthod Cras and Fuees. I prefer it to the Lignier MSD 1er VV, but both are good...

Had a great opportunity to meet both Lignier's recently - Laurent at Paulee, and Hubert was here in Portland, OR recently...great guy!

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#78 Post by alan weinberg » July 25th, 2019, 9:13 pm

mdavis wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 8:33 pm
I paid less than $200 for 2016 Barthod Cras and Fuees. I prefer it to the Lignier MSD 1er VV, but both are good...

Had a great opportunity to meet both Lignier's recently - Laurent at Paulee, and Hubert was here in Portland, OR recently...great guy!

-mark
Hubert—great guy? Ask him about Kellen and her kids, his grandkids? He’s no great guy.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#79 Post by mdavis » July 25th, 2019, 10:22 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 9:13 pm
mdavis wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 8:33 pm
I paid less than $200 for 2016 Barthod Cras and Fuees. I prefer it to the Lignier MSD 1er VV, but both are good...

Had a great opportunity to meet both Lignier's recently - Laurent at Paulee, and Hubert was here in Portland, OR recently...great guy!

-mark
Hubert—great guy? Ask him about Kellen and her kids, his grandkids? He’s no great guy.
I don't know too much about the story - though, I have met Kellen - so I will take your word on that (without asking you to go into detail on the story, which I hear is quite unfortunate)...the guy was pleasant enough to meet and ask questions to -
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#80 Post by c fu » July 25th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:34 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:26 am
Dang Nathan, that is depressing!

Bachelet '15 was $164 for me and '16 was $171... have not prices '17s yet scared to look.
Same for Chaignots M-G... scared to look at 2017 dang it!
I wouldn't bicker over the Lafon, but I do love them. Have you tried what Trapet is doing lately?
Yeah, I didn't pay over $200 for any of those either but Fu clearly stated things on the market available on wine-searcher and I inferred from 20-15-2016. I think the point is, if you wanted to go out and buy a single today and $200 was a hard max, this is the best wine. As much as it pains me, I'm having a hard time coming up with an alternative.

I've always found the Lafon to be blocky for Volnay and not really my jam, though I still think it is a good wine. I just don't buy it. I love Trapet at the high end (where they can be a relative value) but I don't think the under $200 wines are near the Lignier.
exactly! I made the thread cause people are always asking for Burgundy that isn't SKY HIGH IN PRICE that they can get on the interwebs. Thought the collective group can come up with ideas (which they have) on wines people could go find.

Sure I get Liger Belair Clos du Chateau for under $200 on release, but certain allocation release pricing is so much more affordable than what people can pick up off shelves (internet shelves)
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#81 Post by c fu » July 25th, 2019, 10:37 pm

Fred C wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 3:08 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 3:05 pm
Fred C wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Bertheau? Even the Bonnes Mares can be found sub $200.
if you want 03 and 11 . . .
$198 in West Sussex for the 2013. Just made the cutoff.

http://www.fourwallswine.com/index.php? ... m=CDN13255

Also $198 for the 13 Amoureuses at Farr Vintners.
Let's keep it in america. lol.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#82 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 5:50 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm
I’ll go back to your original thought, Nathan: Chevillon LSG and Cailles. Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)

I like Lignier’s MSD VV very much, but it’s not at this level IMO.

Not ready to put the Gouges LSG there.

There are probably others, but none I’ve had as much experience with.
Even though I'm providing better content, Fu is the OP.

Chevillon LSG and Lafarge Chene are > $200. Chevillon Cailles is under $200 and that would be close. I wouldn't be mad if that was your choice, the Lignier slightly edges it for "class/breed" an admittedly ephemeral quality.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#83 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 5:57 am

Peter Valiquette wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:48 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:19 am
Peter Valiquette wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm
Curious to learn if you find it better than a few of the other well known producers sub $200 Cote de Nuits bottlings such as:

Mugnier Marechale
Roumier Bussiere
Dujac MSD 1er
The Roumier is generally above $200 and is an idiosyncratic wine anyway. The Mugnier is very good, just not as good within the parameters the OP set. The Dujac is shrug emoji for me, but it's not something I drink regularly or hunt down.
I found the 2014 Roumier Bussiere a few months ago for less than $150. The 2016 Mugnier Marechale likewise was around $140 just a few weeks ago.
I inferred that the OP meant 2015-16. The Mugnier makes the price, but I don't think it is a better bottle.

I'm operating under the assumption that it is one bottle of Burgundy from 2015-16 that is available on wine-searcher in the US and there is a hard ceiling of $200 to choose that best bottle.

Somehow, like a broken clock, Fu landed on Lignier MSD VV and I'm having a hard time finding a better alternative given the prices in the current marketplace.

FWIW, this was a common type of request (although usually not at $200) when I worked wine retail back in the day.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#84 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 5:59 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:16 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:17 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
Fu I agree with you that the Lignier MSD VV of late is super terrific.

I think there a few other greats of late. Trapet has been blistering lately. Lafon Santenots has been on fire. Dujac msd, Chambolle
I don't think any of these are at the level of the Lignier VV.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
M-G Chaignots, Bachelet Corbeaux, Dujac, combottes,
All of these are > $200.
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:24 am
...it's a fun exercise!
It's a difficult and somewhat depressing exercise.
M-G Chaignots is >$200 because the Gibourg label also has a halo effect these days. Meanwhile, 2015 and 2017 Gouges Chaignots are both on Wine-Searcher at $70 and Gouges is not a lesser producer than Gibourg. People who'd rather spend $200 than $70 might still prefer Gibourg's though.
Sure, but that's not the question. I don't pay >$200 for Mugneret Chaignots, but I've been buying for a long time and get allocations at normal not market prices. I even split a direct allocation with a French friend so I get to see exactly what the three tiers add.

The Mugneret is superior to the Gouges, IME.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#85 Post by c fu » July 26th, 2019, 7:09 am

Nathan V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 5:50 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm
I’ll go back to your original thought, Nathan: Chevillon LSG and Cailles. Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)

I like Lignier’s MSD VV very much, but it’s not at this level IMO.

Not ready to put the Gouges LSG there.

There are probably others, but none I’ve had as much experience with.
Even though I'm providing better content, Fu is the OP.

Chevillon LSG and Lafarge Chene are > $200. Chevillon Cailles is under $200 and that would be close. I wouldn't be mad if that was your choice, the Lignier slightly edges it for "class/breed" an admittedly ephemeral quality.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#86 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 26th, 2019, 9:27 am

alan weinberg wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 9:13 pm
mdavis wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 8:33 pm
I paid less than $200 for 2016 Barthod Cras and Fuees. I prefer it to the Lignier MSD 1er VV, but both are good...

Had a great opportunity to meet both Lignier's recently - Laurent at Paulee, and Hubert was here in Portland, OR recently...great guy!

-mark
Hubert—great guy? Ask him about Kellen and her kids, his grandkids? He’s no great guy.
Alan...do you..or anybody here...know what the "latest" is with that family tragedy? Are they reconciled? Is Kellen living in America with the kids?

Haven't had an update in years...I had been a very sad situation, when I last visited the Ligniers there, and spoke to Hubert's wife at length.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#87 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 26th, 2019, 10:47 am

Nathan V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 5:50 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm
I’ll go back to your original thought, Nathan: Chevillon LSG and Cailles. Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)

I like Lignier’s MSD VV very much, but it’s not at this level IMO.

Not ready to put the Gouges LSG there.

There are probably others, but none I’ve had as much experience with.
Even though I'm providing better content, Fu is the OP.

Chevillon LSG and Lafarge Chene are > $200. Chevillon Cailles is under $200 and that would be close. I wouldn't be mad if that was your choice, the Lignier slightly edges it for "class/breed" an admittedly ephemeral quality.
Disagree entirely. Head to head. I think Lignier’s MSD is clunkier. But to each ....

I can find Chev LSG under $200 but maybe you are right for new release.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#88 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am

Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#89 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 11:01 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:47 am
Nathan V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 5:50 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 1:52 pm
I’ll go back to your original thought, Nathan: Chevillon LSG and Cailles. Also Lafarge Chene (still out there under $200?)

I like Lignier’s MSD VV very much, but it’s not at this level IMO.

Not ready to put the Gouges LSG there.

There are probably others, but none I’ve had as much experience with.
Even though I'm providing better content, Fu is the OP.

Chevillon LSG and Lafarge Chene are > $200. Chevillon Cailles is under $200 and that would be close. I wouldn't be mad if that was your choice, the Lignier slightly edges it for "class/breed" an admittedly ephemeral quality.
Disagree entirely. Head to head. I think Lignier’s MSD is clunkier. But to each ....

I can find Chev LSG under $200 but maybe you are right for new release.
It's a bigger wine in youth, but can get really regal with time, more so than the Cailles. Like I said, I'm not mad at Cailles it's one of my favorites. Under the parameters laid out, Chevillon LSG doesn't fit the criteria (>$200 for 2015-16)..
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#90 Post by David_K » July 26th, 2019, 11:29 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
This thread is the wine version of Mitt Romney's $10,000 bet.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#91 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 11:33 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
I will never, ever publicly share my sub-$100 wines.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#92 Post by Howard Cooper » July 26th, 2019, 11:37 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
Again, I have never thought this was a thread about value wines. Where is any indication that anyone is trying to describe value wines or everyday drinkers? A lot of people have a top price that they will pay for wines - it could be $5, $50, $100, etc. In this case, the OP set the top limit at $200 and is asking for people's thoughts (and expressing his own) about the top wines under this price point. Why is this an illegitimate subject for a thread or so hard to understand?
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#93 Post by Dinesh Goyal » July 26th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:37 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
Again, I have never thought this was a thread about value wines. Where is any indication that anyone is trying to describe value wines or everyday drinkers? A lot of people have a top price that they will pay for wines - it could be $5, $50, $100, etc. In this case, the OP set the top limit at $200 and is asking for people's thoughts (and expressing his own) about the top wines under this price point. Why is this an illegitimate subject for a thread or so hard to understand?
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#94 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 26th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:33 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
I will never, ever publicly share my sub-$100 wines.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this: Nathan will never share his under $100 wines.

But you are still wrong about Chevillon Cailles v. Lignier MSD VV, especially with age.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#95 Post by Nathan V. » July 26th, 2019, 4:19 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 4:08 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:33 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 10:48 am
Is $200 a bottle supposed to be cheap?

Tons of excellent Burgundy under $200, wake me when we're talking under $100...
I will never, ever publicly share my sub-$100 wines.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this: Nathan will never share his under $100 wines.

But you are still wrong about Chevillon Cailles v. Lignier MSD VV, especially with age.
With sufficient age I'm even more right than normal.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#96 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 26th, 2019, 4:35 pm

This is a sad thread. Reflects how quickly Burgundy prices have been going up, basically doubling in the last five years. I looked up a few wines which I figured should be on this list, and was shocked at what they were fetching. Left me with a couple of Chevillons, Caille and Vaucrains, as well as the Chapelle Chambertins of Rossignol Trapet and Trapet.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#97 Post by Howard Cooper » July 26th, 2019, 4:55 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 4:35 pm
This is a sad thread. Reflects how quickly Burgundy prices have been going up, basically doubling in the last five years. I looked up a few wines which I figured should be on this list, and was shocked at what they were fetching. Left me with a couple of Chevillons, Caille and Vaucrains, as well as the Chapelle Chambertins of Rossignol Trapet and Trapet.
You really should be buying Hudelot-Noellat then.

And, yes, Burgundy prices, Bordeaux prices and California Cabernet prices have really gone through the roof during the last several years - Burgundy prices are reflecting more and more the very small production of these wines. I am very glad I have a cellar full of wines and don't really have to or want to buy much in the way of younger vintages of any of these wines anymore.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#98 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 26th, 2019, 5:00 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 4:35 pm
This is a sad thread. Reflects how quickly Burgundy prices have been going up, basically doubling in the last five years. I looked up a few wines which I figured should be on this list, and was shocked at what they were fetching. Left me with a couple of Chevillons, Caille and Vaucrains, as well as the Chapelle Chambertins of Rossignol Trapet and Trapet.
Partly this is on account of the wine-searcher criteria, which by definition lists wines that haven't sold - lots of these wines are sold by email offers when they come out and don't hit WS. Many alternatives I might've suggested are on WS for way more than I paid, and it's not like I'm a VIP getting allocations below FMV, it's just a matter of reading your emails when the wines come out.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#99 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 26th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 5:00 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 4:35 pm
This is a sad thread. Reflects how quickly Burgundy prices have been going up, basically doubling in the last five years. I looked up a few wines which I figured should be on this list, and was shocked at what they were fetching. Left me with a couple of Chevillons, Caille and Vaucrains, as well as the Chapelle Chambertins of Rossignol Trapet and Trapet.
Partly this is on account of the wine-searcher criteria, which by definition lists wines that haven't sold - lots of these wines are sold by email offers when they come out and don't hit WS. Many alternatives I might've suggested are on WS for way more than I paid, and it's not like I'm a VIP getting allocations below FMV, it's just a matter of reading your emails when the wines come out.
This is also a very important point that many sellers on commerce corner should read!

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#100 Post by maureen nelson » July 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 10:38 am
Fred C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Please report back on this. I recently grabbed a few at $80/bottle.
A wow wine....for a Gevrey villages. Blackish fruits; dry but the texture of a sirop and the concentration to match. I've had several 1999 villages reds over the last few months to see where things are with this vintage...and, frankly, I'm wowed, more so than I expected. A Daniel (Patrice) Rion Vosne villages was very much in the style of this one, albeit with the reddish and more beguiling/seductive character of Vosne vs. Gevrey. Both were just delicious and fruity, with no signs of need to further age them, though they will doubtlessly last and last. Nice to see, frankly....and a Georges Mugneret VR this spring was their equal. The surprise , to me, given their concentration and fruit, covering the obvious structure, is how tasty they are now, given the vintage's overcropping. (Of course, these are, IMO, top producers' villages examples.) The wine was a little tight at first, but....with abundant aeration, blossomed. (FWIW, the Rion was much more open from the start, not surprisingly, given the village.)

I'm really looking forward to trying some 1er crus from 1999 starting in 2020. I suspect they will be even better....but...that will really be somthing if they are. These 1999s are 1990-like....a big compliment IMO.
Gee, Stuart, glad to see you are coming around to the view of many of us here, as well as several critics, that 1999 is a terrific vintage for red burgundy notwithstanding the overcropping.

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