2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

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2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#1 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 10:49 am

In the past few months I've had the 2001, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015, 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV and they've all been glorious burgundy shooting way past their price point of $170-200. The last few vintages have been utterly spectacular as Laurent is fine tuning it more and more. I'm trying to think of another red burgundy under $200 available on wine-searcher (I don't want to hear, I paid $100 for my Rousseau chambertin) that hits higher.

Any thoughts?

(below is my quite note on the 2016 I opened last friday)

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#2 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 11:02 am

I'm not sure it's the best QPR in Burgundy 1ers generally (I'd lean towards no), but Laurent really hit it out of the park in 16. The Clos de la Roche especially is spectacular.

The 1987 of the Vielle Vignes 1er Cru was one of my first two "wow" red burgundy experiences. (The other was a 1990 Pousse d'or Cailleret 60 Ouvrees.)

Incidentally, Neal Rosenthal claims Lignier made great 03s. If anyone cares to try that out, let me know. :)
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#3 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 11:03 am

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:02 am
I'm not sure it's the best QPR in Burgundy 1ers generally (I'd lean towards no), but Laurent really hit it out of the park in 16. The Clos de la Roche especially is spectacular.

The 1987 of the Vielle Vignes 1er Cru was one of my first two "wow" red burgundy experiences. (The other was a 1990 Pousse d'or Cailleret 60 Ouvrees.)

Incidentally, Neal Rosenthal claims Lignier made great 03s. If anyone cares to try that out, let me know. :)
examples please!
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#4 Post by Matthew King » July 24th, 2019, 11:44 am

Charlie -- We enjoyed the '01 together, so you know I'm all-in on these wines when I see them. That said, others I'd put in the same league when it comes to that price point: Barthod Fuees or Cras; Dujac also makes a good MSD 1er cru that is the relative value play in the portfolio. But if I'm honest with myself, none of those truly flirt with GC status, as Lignier's Baby CdlR does ...
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#5 Post by Nathan V. » July 24th, 2019, 11:55 am

OK, I'll play. I was going to say Mugneret Feusselottes, but then I looked up the prices. Holy shit. I'd throw in Mugneret Chaignots, maybe.

Surprisingly, Barthod Cras has also passed that benchmark for 2015-2016. Maybe her Fuées if it is more your thing but that's right there around $200 as well. I have a soft spot for the Veroilles but it looks like it is over $200 as well.

Chevillon LSG? Personally, I really like the Cailles but I'm not sure I'd say it was better than the Lignier.

I suppose someone could argue for Esmonin or Jadot CSJ, but I wouldn't.

All in all, this is a depressing excercise.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#6 Post by Alan Rath » July 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Interesting, because our local offline comrade George Chadwick has been buying these for years, and often brings them to dinners. While many have been quite nice, I can't say I've ever thought they were up there with the best Burgs I've had. Though I can't say for sure if we've had this particular wine. Isn't he notorious for new oak?
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#7 Post by M. Meer » July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm

Lignier has a nice style that makes the wines usually accessible at some level regardless of age. I think the 1er is in the conversation with Lafarge, D'Angerville, Mugnier, and Arnoux. I would like to try a Lignier Combottes, however, before anointing it the best under $200 in their portfolio.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#8 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 12:21 pm

c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:03 am
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:02 am
I'm not sure it's the best QPR in Burgundy 1ers generally (I'd lean towards no), but Laurent really hit it out of the park in 16. The Clos de la Roche especially is spectacular.

The 1987 of the Vielle Vignes 1er Cru was one of my first two "wow" red burgundy experiences. (The other was a 1990 Pousse d'or Cailleret 60 Ouvrees.)

Incidentally, Neal Rosenthal claims Lignier made great 03s. If anyone cares to try that out, let me know. :)
examples please!
As discussed in our little colloquy, another name I'd throw out (and another Rosenthal imported wine) is Chezeaux's Suchot, which I think is the best 1er QPR in Burgundy. I agree it's not quite as built to age as the Lignier though. Two years ago I'd have said Lafarge's Chenes, but that's not the case anymore. Maybe Lafarge's Cailleret now (I quite like Lafarge, so that's a stylistic argument). I don't agree on Barthod, which is a producer whose wines I just don't get. I've yet to open a Barthod I've really liked.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#9 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm
Interesting, because our local offline comrade George Chadwick has been buying these for years, and often brings them to dinners. While many have been quite nice, I can't say I've ever thought they were up there with the best Burgs I've had. Though I can't say for sure if we've had this particular wine. Isn't he notorious for new oak?
I think you're thinking of Dominique Laurent; this is Laurent Lignier. Definitely not a lot of new oak.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#10 Post by Alan Rath » July 24th, 2019, 12:41 pm

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm
Interesting, because our local offline comrade George Chadwick has been buying these for years, and often brings them to dinners. While many have been quite nice, I can't say I've ever thought they were up there with the best Burgs I've had. Though I can't say for sure if we've had this particular wine. Isn't he notorious for new oak?
I think you're thinking of Dominique Laurent; this is Laurent Lignier. Definitely not a lot of new oak.
I'm easily confused ;) Yes, George does collect Dominique Laurent, but I also have some Hubert Lignier in my notes that he's brought. Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#11 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm
Lignier has a nice style that makes the wines usually accessible at some level regardless of age. I think the 1er is in the conversation with Lafarge, D'Angerville, Mugnier, and Arnoux. I would like to try a Lignier Combottes, however, before anointing it the best under $200 in their portfolio.
When I was paying attention (up to 2006), the Chambolle "Les Baudes" and the the Gevrey "Combettes" were more spectacular wines. Hubert was selling this wine at "VV" at least as early as the 1988 vintage...when I asked him in 1990, he said the vines were 25 years old. Hmmmmm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Kinda hard to imagine a 2+ year old version of that wine would show much for the price. IMO, it's all in the aging that that wine becomes valuable, and interesting. pileon

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#12 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:41 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm
Interesting, because our local offline comrade George Chadwick has been buying these for years, and often brings them to dinners. While many have been quite nice, I can't say I've ever thought they were up there with the best Burgs I've had. Though I can't say for sure if we've had this particular wine. Isn't he notorious for new oak?
I think you're thinking of Dominique Laurent; this is Laurent Lignier. Definitely not a lot of new oak.
I'm easily confused ;) Yes, George does collect Dominique Laurent, but I also have some Hubert Lignier in my notes that he's brought. Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
Or are you referring to Georges Lignier? neener

(I think Dominique Laurent has dialed down the oak; pre 1997 or so and post 2002, the oak has gotten less heavy handed. A 2006 Clos de la Roche I had from him was phenomenal, and a 93 Lavaux St. Jacques was lovely in that it was in his pre-oak days. But circa 99......yeah, those are a bit tough if you don't like oak.)
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#13 Post by Sh@n A » July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

At Paulee, I thought the 2016 B. Leroux Mazoyeres was in same level of the MSD VV and compared favorably to it. However, it is not easily sourced, although I was able to snag a few bottles for $160. I also liked Gouge's LSG for ~$155 paid, but imagine most would prefer the MSD VV.

I have not tried these, but would be curious if folks thought these could reach the level:
Hudelot Noellat Suchot $175
Drouhin Laroze Bonnes Mares $150
Arlaud Clos de la Roche $175
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#14 Post by Alan Rath » July 24th, 2019, 12:55 pm

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm
Or are you referring to Georges Lignier? neener
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#15 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 12:58 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:55 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm
Or are you referring to Georges Lignier? neener
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#16 Post by Nathan V. » July 24th, 2019, 1:18 pm

M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm
Lignier has a nice style that makes the wines usually accessible at some level regardless of age. I think the 1er is in the conversation with Lafarge, D'Angerville, Mugnier, and Arnoux. I would like to try a Lignier Combottes, however, before anointing it the best under $200 in their portfolio.
I too prefer the Lignier Combottes, but it is over $200. The only Mugnier that is under $200 is the NSG Marechale and I think the Lignier is better. Lafarge top 1ers are over $200 as is D'Angerville Ducs and Arnoux Suchots.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#17 Post by Nathan V. » July 24th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:21 pm
c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:03 am
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:02 am
I'm not sure it's the best QPR in Burgundy 1ers generally (I'd lean towards no), but Laurent really hit it out of the park in 16. The Clos de la Roche especially is spectacular.

The 1987 of the Vielle Vignes 1er Cru was one of my first two "wow" red burgundy experiences. (The other was a 1990 Pousse d'or Cailleret 60 Ouvrees.)

Incidentally, Neal Rosenthal claims Lignier made great 03s. If anyone cares to try that out, let me know. :)
examples please!
As discussed in our little colloquy, another name I'd throw out (and another Rosenthal imported wine) is Chezeaux's Suchot, which I think is the best 1er QPR in Burgundy. I agree it's not quite as built to age as the Lignier though. Two years ago I'd have said Lafarge's Chenes, but that's not the case anymore. Maybe Lafarge's Cailleret now (I quite like Lafarge, so that's a stylistic argument). I don't agree on Barthod, which is a producer whose wines I just don't get. I've yet to open a Barthod I've really liked.
Chezeaux Suchots is a made up crap wine that doesn't really exist. People say it's over-cropped negociant. I don't know, but people are saying it. Not worth bringing up here.

I'm a huge Barthod fan, but even I am confounded sometimes.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#18 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 1:37 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm
M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:09 pm
Lignier has a nice style that makes the wines usually accessible at some level regardless of age. I think the 1er is in the conversation with Lafarge, D'Angerville, Mugnier, and Arnoux. I would like to try a Lignier Combottes, however, before anointing it the best under $200 in their portfolio.
When I was paying attention (up to 2006), the Chambolle "Les Baudes" and the the Gevrey "Combettes" were more spectacular wines. Hubert was selling this wine at "VV" at least as early as the 1988 vintage...when I asked him in 1990, he said the vines were 25 years old. Hmmmmm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Kinda hard to imagine a 2+ year old version of that wine would show much for the price. IMO, it's all in the aging that that wine becomes valuable, and interesting. pileon
Different wine being made since 2006 on when Laurent took over. Different oak and stem treatment
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#19 Post by M. Meer » July 24th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:18 pm

I too prefer the Lignier Combottes, but it is over $200. The only Mugnier that is under $200 is the NSG Marechale and I think the Lignier is better. Lafarge top 1ers are over $200 as is D'Angerville Ducs and Arnoux Suchots.
Maybe not always cherry vintages, but they can be had, save probably for the Suchots at this point [training.gif]
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#20 Post by Nathan V. » July 24th, 2019, 2:11 pm

M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:18 pm

I too prefer the Lignier Combottes, but it is over $200. The only Mugnier that is under $200 is the NSG Marechale and I think the Lignier is better. Lafarge top 1ers are over $200 as is D'Angerville Ducs and Arnoux Suchots.
Maybe not always cherry vintages, but they can be had, save probably for the Suchots at this point [training.gif]
Agreed, but I took the OP to be referring to recent top vintages 2015-2016.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#21 Post by Mark Y » July 24th, 2019, 2:20 pm

This is depressing.. no other wine region is at this pricing level.. <sigh>

Too bad i love burgs.. #sad.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#22 Post by Howard Cooper » July 24th, 2019, 2:29 pm

I like but do not love Hubert Lignier's wines. For a start, for under $200, I would rather have:

Hudelot Noellat Clos Vougeot (paid $150 for the 2017), VR les Suchots or Beaumonts and CM Charmes.
Yvon Clerget Clos Vougeot
d'Angerville Taillepieds
Rossignol-Trapet Chapelle or Laricieres Chambertin
Jouan MSD Clos Sorbes

Also, when I tasted his wines at the Paulee grand tasting at NY this year, I thought there was a huge step down from his Chaffots to his 1er Cru VV. Not sure why you did not mention the Chaffots. It also is under $200, at least according to Wine Searcher.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#23 Post by M. Meer » July 24th, 2019, 2:35 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:11 pm

Agreed, but I took the OP to be referring to recent top vintages 2015-2016.
Cool cool. Guess I'm too used to dumpster diving. Won't be sniffing '16s for a couple of years until they get down to my level.

[cheers.gif]

BTW, forget what I said about the Suchots. Mugnier Fuees was something that could be had under $200 last year. Hope it's not another one I can't drink up.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#24 Post by Howard Cooper » July 24th, 2019, 2:42 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:11 pm
M. Meer wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:18 pm

I too prefer the Lignier Combottes, but it is over $200. The only Mugnier that is under $200 is the NSG Marechale and I think the Lignier is better. Lafarge top 1ers are over $200 as is D'Angerville Ducs and Arnoux Suchots.
Maybe not always cherry vintages, but they can be had, save probably for the Suchots at this point [training.gif]
Agreed, but I took the OP to be referring to recent top vintages 2015-2016.
I have found that, in some cases, the 2017s are cheaper than the 2016s - should be also given the relative quantities produced.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#25 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 3:15 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:29 pm
I like but do not love Hubert Lignier's wines. For a start, for under $200, I would rather have:

Hudelot Noellat Clos Vougeot (paid $150 for the 2017), VR les Suchots or Beaumonts and CM Charmes.
Yvon Clerget Clos Vougeot
d'Angerville Taillepieds
Rossignol-Trapet Chapelle or Laricieres Chambertin
Jouan MSD Clos Sorbes

Also, when I tasted his wines at the Paulee grand tasting at NY this year, I thought there was a huge step down from his Chaffots to his 1er Cru VV. Not sure why you did not mention the Chaffots. It also is under $200, at least according to Wine Searcher.
I don't like the Chaffots as much. It is definitely far under $200 which is nice. Chaffots was $139! Good deal.

I definitely had Noellat Suchot on my mind as the competition. Those have aged splendidly as well.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#26 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 3:23 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:21 pm
c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 11:03 am


examples please!
As discussed in our little colloquy, another name I'd throw out (and another Rosenthal imported wine) is Chezeaux's Suchot, which I think is the best 1er QPR in Burgundy. I agree it's not quite as built to age as the Lignier though. Two years ago I'd have said Lafarge's Chenes, but that's not the case anymore. Maybe Lafarge's Cailleret now (I quite like Lafarge, so that's a stylistic argument). I don't agree on Barthod, which is a producer whose wines I just don't get. I've yet to open a Barthod I've really liked.
Chezeaux Suchots is a made up crap wine that doesn't really exist. People say it's over-cropped negociant. I don't know, but people are saying it. Not worth bringing up here.

I'm a huge Barthod fan, but even I am confounded sometimes.
Are you thinking Domaine des Chezeaux or Jerome Chezeaux? Because I'm thinking of the latter, and it's not negociant.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#27 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 3:29 pm

c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:15 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:29 pm
I like but do not love Hubert Lignier's wines. For a start, for under $200, I would rather have:

Hudelot Noellat Clos Vougeot (paid $150 for the 2017), VR les Suchots or Beaumonts and CM Charmes.
Yvon Clerget Clos Vougeot
d'Angerville Taillepieds
Rossignol-Trapet Chapelle or Laricieres Chambertin
Jouan MSD Clos Sorbes

Also, when I tasted his wines at the Paulee grand tasting at NY this year, I thought there was a huge step down from his Chaffots to his 1er Cru VV. Not sure why you did not mention the Chaffots. It also is under $200, at least according to Wine Searcher.
I don't like the Chaffots as much. It is definitely far under $200 which is nice. Chaffots was $139! Good deal.

I definitely had Noellat Suchot on my mind as the competition. Those have aged splendidly as well.
I agree with all of this; Chaffots is both a good deal and not as good as the MSD 1er VV.

One of these days I'd really like to do a Suchots tasting with a number of the producers; it's one of the few Vosne 1ers that's reasonably price accessible for that sort of thing and has a number of good producers.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#28 Post by Sh@n A » July 24th, 2019, 4:16 pm

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:29 pm
One of these days I'd really like to do a Suchots tasting with a number of the producers; it's one of the few Vosne 1ers that's reasonably price accessible for that sort of thing and has a number of good producers.
I'm down for blinded Suchots tasting
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#29 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 4:23 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 4:16 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:29 pm
One of these days I'd really like to do a Suchots tasting with a number of the producers; it's one of the few Vosne 1ers that's reasonably price accessible for that sort of thing and has a number of good producers.
I'm down for blinded Suchots tasting
I wasn't proposed blinding them - I don't drink enough Suchot to be able to tell them apart!
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#30 Post by C. Keller » July 24th, 2019, 5:41 pm

Prices just went up after this thread started.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#31 Post by maureen nelson » July 24th, 2019, 5:42 pm

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:23 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:21 pm


As discussed in our little colloquy, another name I'd throw out (and another Rosenthal imported wine) is Chezeaux's Suchot, which I think is the best 1er QPR in Burgundy. I agree it's not quite as built to age as the Lignier though. Two years ago I'd have said Lafarge's Chenes, but that's not the case anymore. Maybe Lafarge's Cailleret now (I quite like Lafarge, so that's a stylistic argument). I don't agree on Barthod, which is a producer whose wines I just don't get. I've yet to open a Barthod I've really liked.
Chezeaux Suchots is a made up crap wine that doesn't really exist. People say it's over-cropped negociant. I don't know, but people are saying it. Not worth bringing up here.

I'm a huge Barthod fan, but even I am confounded sometimes.
Are you thinking Domaine des Chezeaux or Jerome Chezeaux? Because I'm thinking of the latter, and it's not negociant.
I am thinking Nathan was trying to tamp down any potential excitement re chezeaux’s suchots.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#32 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 5:47 pm

maureen nelson wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 5:42 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:23 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:21 pm


Chezeaux Suchots is a made up crap wine that doesn't really exist. People say it's over-cropped negociant. I don't know, but people are saying it. Not worth bringing up here.

I'm a huge Barthod fan, but even I am confounded sometimes.
Are you thinking Domaine des Chezeaux or Jerome Chezeaux? Because I'm thinking of the latter, and it's not negociant.
I am thinking Nathan was trying to tamp down any potential excitement re chezeaux’s suchots.
Haha, touche. I had the same concern :) I visited the Domaine in May and in retrospect should have bought more.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#33 Post by David_K » July 24th, 2019, 6:33 pm

I admit I had a chuckle at the line of "shooting way past their price point of $170-200," spoken as if it's a daily drinker. I guess it is for you.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#34 Post by Fred C » July 24th, 2019, 6:50 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:54 pm

I have a 1999 Gevrey villages teed up for tonight or tomorrow...depending.

Please report back on this. I recently grabbed a few at $80/bottle.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#35 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 24th, 2019, 7:02 pm

What % of Burgundy is sub-$200? 99.99%? Even among fancy 1er crus, there are boatloads sub-$200, not a shabby assortment of grand crus in that range either. At that point it's just a matter of taste, not "best." But Lignier's been a highly regarded domaine for decades so there is some serious brand value baked into the price - IMO, my Burgundy dollars go further elsewhere... but whatever rings your bell, rings your bell.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#36 Post by Craig G » July 24th, 2019, 7:05 pm

C. Keller wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 5:41 pm
Prices just went up after this thread started.
Mission accomplished, then!
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#37 Post by George Chadwick » July 24th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:41 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm
Interesting, because our local offline comrade George Chadwick has been buying these for years, and often brings them to dinners. While many have been quite nice, I can't say I've ever thought they were up there with the best Burgs I've had. Though I can't say for sure if we've had this particular wine. Isn't he notorious for new oak?
I think you're thinking of Dominique Laurent; this is Laurent Lignier. Definitely not a lot of new oak.
I'm easily confused ;) Yes, George does collect Dominique Laurent, but I also have some Hubert Lignier in my notes that he's brought. Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
Alan yes to both. You and I attended a lunch recently where I brought a magnum of 1990 Hubert Lignier Morey St. Denis VV 1990, it was in great shape and showed well. It showed no oak. Fresh and long. I used to buy Hubert Lignier Clos de la Roche 2002 and 2003 (the latter sadly subtitled Cuvee Romain) and would immediately drink them about six years ago. I followed the tragic, then contentious, Lignier saga and learned that Lucie et Auguste Lignier 2004 and 2005 are Hubert Lignier juice at half the price and I've drunk a lot of LA Lignier Clos de la Roche and Morey 1er from those vintages and have brought them at least once to our Monday dinner group.

But the oaky guy I bring everywhere is Dominique Laurent. I love 50 percent of his wines. I brought to my June 30 SF tasting his 1993 Nuits St. Georges Les Vaucrains and a leaky (or I would have kept it longer) 2006 Clos de la Roche. Jim Cowan wrote notes here on both wines which I agree with, the former was brisk and excellent IMO, the latter not tasting oaky syrupy but the oak made the flavors muddied and indistinct, which might be a characteristic of 2006 overall.

The best tasting wine I've had in 2019 was a Dominique Laurent Les Amoureuses 1992. A couple of years ago I loved his 1994.
Last edited by George Chadwick on July 24th, 2019, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#38 Post by Karl K » July 24th, 2019, 7:44 pm

Second Howard on the Rossignol-Trapet and HN CV and Suchots.

Also Trapet Chapelle is quite nice.

Sub-$100 Henri Magnien 2014 Gevreys are drinking very well, VV fine now Cazetiers still young.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#39 Post by Karl K » July 24th, 2019, 7:47 pm

Just checked WS - for you SoCal WBerers,
WHWC has 2016 H Magnien Cazetiers for $80.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#40 Post by George Chadwick » July 24th, 2019, 7:51 pm

One of the wines I brought on vacation this week is Prieure Roch 1999 Suchots, the closest thing there is in pedigree if not quality to a DRC Suchots. I'll drink it next week. I expect stems. Since Roch's recent death the prices for his wines greatly exceed quality .

Dominique Laurent's 1999 Suchots is terrific. His 2003' s across the board are either roasted coffee, great until the vodka on the finish (Suchots), or the most delicious red fruit I've ever had (Ruchottes, Chambolle 1er VV,).

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#41 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 8:06 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 7:02 pm
What % of Burgundy is sub-$200? 99.99%? Even among fancy 1er crus, there are boatloads sub-$200, not a shabby assortment of grand crus in that range either. At that point it's just a matter of taste, not "best." But Lignier's been a highly regarded domaine for decades so there is some serious brand value baked into the price - IMO, my Burgundy dollars go further elsewhere... but whatever rings your bell, rings your bell.
Kinda the whole point of the thread, to see other people’s opinions on other wines that are readily available at under $200 on wine searcher that they think are the best in that category.

Feel free to list examples for others to try that qualify as best for your taste.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#42 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 8:07 pm

David_K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:33 pm
I admit I had a chuckle at the line of "shooting way past their price point of $170-200," spoken as if it's a daily drinker. I guess it is for you.
No one said it was a daily drinker. Just a category to choose from and people to give their suggestions on.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#43 Post by Peter Valiquette » July 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm

Curious to learn if you find it better than a few of the other well known producers sub $200 Cote de Nuits bottlings such as:

Mugnier Marechale
Roumier Bussiere
Dujac MSD 1er

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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#44 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 8:27 pm

George Chadwick wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 7:39 pm
But the oaky guy I bring everywhere is Dominique Laurent. I love 50 percent of his wines.
Yes! Sometimes they're quite oaky but sometimes they're absolutely wonderful. A And, at the price and given the quality of the fruit he gets/got, it's a gamble well worth taking imho, especially since the hit rate with Burgundy remains..........less than ideal. :)

And actually the 2006 CdlR I had from him last year was spectacular. Burgundy. *shrug* champagne.gif
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#45 Post by c fu » July 24th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Peter Valiquette wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:21 pm
Curious to learn if you find it better than a few of the other well known producers sub $200 Cote de Nuits bottlings such as:

Mugnier Marechale
Roumier Bussiere
Dujac MSD 1er
Yes! I do like the dujac msd 1er as well and it’s cheaper than the lignier but if it’s just one wine I’ll rest my hat on it’d be the lignier.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#46 Post by PCLIN » July 24th, 2019, 9:52 pm

c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 10:49 am
In the past few months I've had the 2001, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015, 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV and they've all been glorious burgundy shooting way past their price point of $170-200. The last few vintages have been utterly spectacular as Laurent is fine tuning it more and more. I'm trying to think of another red burgundy under $200 available on wine-searcher (I don't want to hear, I paid $100 for my Rousseau chambertin) that hits higher.

Supposedly ‘02 Hubert Lignier MSD 1er VV is the best of them all, it’s also one of the hardest wine to source, took me almost 2 years just to secure a 6-pack. Wines just in, yet to open any. I think for the first 15 to 20 year, this bottling is better the CdlR.

Sadly with this thread, securing this bottling would be even more difficult in the future.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#47 Post by Howard Cooper » July 25th, 2019, 4:46 am

c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:07 pm
David_K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 6:33 pm
I admit I had a chuckle at the line of "shooting way past their price point of $170-200," spoken as if it's a daily drinker. I guess it is for you.
No one said it was a daily drinker. Just a category to choose from and people to give their suggestions on.
+1

There is an excellent thread on less expensive Burgundies. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119762 I never thought that this thread was meant to duplicate that one.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#48 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 6:02 am

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:23 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:21 pm


As discussed in our little colloquy, another name I'd throw out (and another Rosenthal imported wine) is Chezeaux's Suchot, which I think is the best 1er QPR in Burgundy. I agree it's not quite as built to age as the Lignier though. Two years ago I'd have said Lafarge's Chenes, but that's not the case anymore. Maybe Lafarge's Cailleret now (I quite like Lafarge, so that's a stylistic argument). I don't agree on Barthod, which is a producer whose wines I just don't get. I've yet to open a Barthod I've really liked.
Chezeaux Suchots is a made up crap wine that doesn't really exist. People say it's over-cropped negociant. I don't know, but people are saying it. Not worth bringing up here.

I'm a huge Barthod fan, but even I am confounded sometimes.
Are you thinking Domaine des Chezeaux or Jerome Chezeaux? Because I'm thinking of the latter, and it's not negociant.
I don't know. People are saying it. Nothing anyone should pay attention too. Definitely second class...
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#49 Post by A. So » July 25th, 2019, 6:17 am

PCLIN wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 9:52 pm
c fu wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 10:49 am
In the past few months I've had the 2001, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015, 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV and they've all been glorious burgundy shooting way past their price point of $170-200. The last few vintages have been utterly spectacular as Laurent is fine tuning it more and more. I'm trying to think of another red burgundy under $200 available on wine-searcher (I don't want to hear, I paid $100 for my Rousseau chambertin) that hits higher.

Supposedly ‘02 Hubert Lignier MSD 1er VV is the best of them all, it’s also one of the hardest wine to source, took me almost 2 years just to secure a 6-pack. Wines just in, yet to open any. I think for the first 15 to 20 year, this bottling is better the CdlR.

Sadly with this thread, securing this bottling would be even more difficult in the future.
Didn't know that. That would have been Romain/Hubert then right? Found a case at an auction this year and paid a hair over the OP price limit. I'll make a point to open one soon.
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Re: 2016 Hubert Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV - best sub $200 burgundy out there?

#50 Post by A. So » July 25th, 2019, 6:18 am

Incidentally the 2016 is a stunningly gorgeous wine and clearly a step up from the already killer 2015.
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