Pronunciation

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John O'
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Pronunciation

#1 Post by John O' » July 19th, 2019, 5:51 am

For a long time I pronounced Meritage - Meri-Tahj. When I learned it was pronounced to rhyme with heritage I felt foolish.

Last night I was talking to someone in the biz about the vineyard To Kalon. I've always pronounced it (Too-Callin, emphasis on the Callin). He pronounced it Toe-Kulon, emphasis on the Toe). Researched when I got home and of course he was right.
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Re: Pronunciation

#2 Post by YLee » July 19th, 2019, 5:57 am

Chateauneuf-du-pape. Not 'Pop'
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Re: Pronunciation

#3 Post by Jim Stewart » July 19th, 2019, 6:10 am

YLee wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 5:57 am
Chateauneuf-du-pape. Not 'Pop'
Willamette dammit!

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Re: Pronunciation

#4 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 19th, 2019, 6:33 am

YLee wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 5:57 am
Chateauneuf-du-pape. Not 'Pop'
I'm not sure how you are pronouncing pape, but pop isn't a bad English approximation. It's true that the vowel sound should be more like ah, as when the doctor says say ah, but it should definitely not be like the "a" in Maverick's old pappy.

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Re: Pronunciation

#5 Post by Mikko R » July 19th, 2019, 6:37 am

I thought it was Chateauneuf-du-Poop
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Re: Pronunciation

#6 Post by YLee » July 19th, 2019, 6:39 am

Mikko R wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:37 am
I thought it was Chateauneuf-du-Poop
That's for the bad vintages.
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Re: Pronunciation

#7 Post by Markus S » July 19th, 2019, 6:39 am

Eisele, like 'essel'?
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Re: Pronunciation

#8 Post by Robert Love » July 19th, 2019, 6:42 am

Mikko R wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:37 am
I thought it was Chateauneuf-du-Poop
Prior to 2000 or so only.

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Re: Pronunciation

#9 Post by Gerhard P. » July 19th, 2019, 6:48 am

pahpp ...

(not pop)
Last edited by Gerhard P. on July 19th, 2019, 7:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pronunciation

#10 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 19th, 2019, 6:48 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:33 am
YLee wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 5:57 am
Chateauneuf-du-pape. Not 'Pop'
I'm not sure how you are pronouncing pape, but pop isn't a bad English approximation. It's true that the vowel sound should be more like ah, as when the doctor says say ah, but it should definitely not be like the "a" in Maverick's old pappy.
I was thinking exactly the same.

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Re: Pronunciation

#11 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 19th, 2019, 7:21 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:48 am
pahpp ...

(not pop)
These sounds are clearly closer than you think in spoken English.

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Re: Pronunciation

#12 Post by Craig G » July 19th, 2019, 7:32 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:21 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:48 am
pahpp ...

(not pop)
These sounds are clearly closer than you think in spoken English.
Huh? I don’t think so.
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Re: Pronunciation

#13 Post by Markus S » July 19th, 2019, 7:57 am

Craig G wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:32 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:21 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:48 am
pahpp ...

(not pop)
These sounds are clearly closer than you think in spoken English.
Huh? I don’t think so.
Sound exactly the same to me... [scratch.gif]
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Re: Pronunciation

#14 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 19th, 2019, 8:06 am

Here's a reasonable American pronunciation of pop:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... nunciation

There is, of course, a difference between this and the French pronunciation of pape:

https://forvo.com/word/le_pape/

But it is really rather subtle. It would take more than one try for most English speakers to get it.

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Re: Pronunciation

#15 Post by Hank Victor » July 19th, 2019, 8:44 am

This is the correct pronunciation of CdP.

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Re: Pronunciation

#16 Post by Richard Albert » July 19th, 2019, 9:04 am

Eisele = ice lee, in these parts.
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Re: Pronunciation

#17 Post by YLee » July 19th, 2019, 10:05 am

Hank Victor wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 8:44 am
This is the correct pronunciation of CdP.

Perfect French pronounciation!
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Re: Pronunciation

#18 Post by Frank Z » July 19th, 2019, 10:16 am

Markus S wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:39 am
Eisele, like 'essel'?
I believe its 'eyes-lee'.
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Re: Pronunciation

#19 Post by Gerhard P. » July 19th, 2019, 10:18 am

Markus S wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:57 am
Craig G wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:32 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 7:21 am


These sounds are clearly closer than you think in spoken English.
Huh? I don’t think so.
Sound exactly the same to me... [scratch.gif]
Not to a musical ear ...
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Re: Pronunciation

#20 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » July 19th, 2019, 10:27 am

Ear does have something to do with it. Even disregarding things like vocal placement and variations in how the mouth forms sounds in English versus French, that vowel sound doesn't exist in most American accents and dialects. I've spent a lot of time taking and teaching speech classes for the theatre - people often have trouble hearing a sound they aren't used to, not to mention trouble making that sound. Differences in vowel sounds are particularly hard.

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Re: Pronunciation

#21 Post by Chris Seiber » July 19th, 2019, 10:39 am

John O' wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 5:51 am
For a long time I pronounced Meritage - Meri-Tahj. When I learned it was pronounced to rhyme with heritage I felt foolish.
This was supposed to be an American word to us instead of calling these blends "Bordeaux blends." But it didn't really catch on, and as you noted, the majority of people seem to assume that the pronunciation should be French-ish, and then everyone feels awkward about it.

What has mostly happened in practice is wineries using "the important-sounding big word" to signal a meritage / Bordeaux blend. Symmetry, Insignia, Elevage, Tapestry, etc.

Also, these blends are on the rise, because (1) merlot quality in Napa and Washington is high, but (2) customers don't buy merlot or at least value it at high price points, and so (3) a mostly-merlot blend that's marketed as a meritage has a better chance of selling and at a higher price point. Shafer has just rebranded its merlot as TD-9, for example.

I'm digressing, but what the hell.

By the way, I love pronunciation threads. It's one of the best things we do on here, since not knowing how to pronounce things can be a significant impediment to good conversation about wines.

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Re: Pronunciation

#22 Post by John Morris » July 19th, 2019, 10:43 am

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:27 am
Ear does have something to do with it. Even disregarding things like vocal placement and variations in how the mouth forms sounds in English versus French, that vowel sound doesn't exist in most American accents and dialects. I've spent a lot of time taking and teaching speech classes for the theatre - people often have trouble hearing a sound they aren't used to, not to mention trouble making that sound. Differences in vowel sounds are particularly hard.
+1

Linguists can often distinguish vowels that native speakers think they're pronouncing the same way.
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Re: Pronunciation

#23 Post by Jim Stewart » July 19th, 2019, 10:54 am

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:27 am
Ear does have something to do with it. Even disregarding things like vocal placement and variations in how the mouth forms sounds in English versus French, that vowel sound doesn't exist in most American accents and dialects. I've spent a lot of time taking and teaching speech classes for the theatre - people often have trouble hearing a sound they aren't used to, not to mention trouble making that sound. Differences in vowel sounds are particularly hard.
Very good point and I strongly agree from personal experience trying to learn a couple of foreign languages as an adult. The sounds in the foreign language that "don't exist" in my version of English are really the biggest-hurdles. Once these new sounds are at least semi-mastered, fluency accelerates.

On the broader subject of pronunciation, being brought up around Boston, I am sure we don't even have to leave the English language to have pronunciation issues. [cheers.gif]

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Re: Pronunciation

#24 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 19th, 2019, 10:55 am

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:27 am
Ear does have something to do with it. Even disregarding things like vocal placement and variations in how the mouth forms sounds in English versus French, that vowel sound doesn't exist in most American accents and dialects. I've spent a lot of time taking and teaching speech classes for the theatre - people often have trouble hearing a sound they aren't used to, not to mention trouble making that sound. Differences in vowel sounds are particularly hard.
Virtually any linguist would distinguish among the vowel sound in pop as pronounced by someone from the Bronx, someone from Georgia, someone from Ohio and someone from London. Some of those distinctions would be more evident to an American ear than the differences between the vowel sound in pop as he or she pronounced it and pape as pronounced by a French speaker from, let us say, the Loire, where 19th century mythology had it, people spoke the "purest" French.

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Re: Pronunciation

#25 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » July 19th, 2019, 11:13 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:54 am
Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:27 am
Ear does have something to do with it. Even disregarding things like vocal placement and variations in how the mouth forms sounds in English versus French, that vowel sound doesn't exist in most American accents and dialects. I've spent a lot of time taking and teaching speech classes for the theatre - people often have trouble hearing a sound they aren't used to, not to mention trouble making that sound. Differences in vowel sounds are particularly hard.
Very good point and I strongly agree from personal experience trying to learn a couple of foreign languages as an adult. The sounds in the foreign language that "don't exist" in my version of English are really the biggest-hurdles. Once these new sounds are at least semi-mastered, fluency accelerates.

On the broader subject of pronunciation, being brought up around Boston, I am sure we don't even have to leave the English language to have pronunciation issues. [cheers.gif]
The Boston accent is useful, actually, since its broader aspects are fairly easy to imitate. I used to use the phrase "park the car in Harvard yard," with the Boston accent, to get people to make what's known as the Intermediate A sound.

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Re: Pronunciation

#26 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 19th, 2019, 11:28 am

JFK might have said, pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd, as we think of the accent. Cliff on Cheers would have sounded rather different.

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Re: Pronunciation

#27 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » July 19th, 2019, 11:52 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 11:28 am
JFK might have said, pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd, as we think of the accent. Cliff on Cheers would have sounded rather different.
No argument, there are many variations on all sorts of accents. It didn't decrease the efficacy of that trick with my students.

Tying back to my original point, though, unless you study these things or have a talent for it, you may not be able to distinguish. Thus one of the difficulties in reproducing unfamiliar sounds - the ear, in addition to the mouth.

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Re: Pronunciation

#28 Post by YLee » July 19th, 2019, 11:57 am

This thread became much more interesting than I anticipated.
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Re: Pronunciation

#29 Post by GregT » July 19th, 2019, 1:41 pm

Which some people mispronounce "inneresting".

On the radio the other day I heard a woman newscaster talking about a house police had raided where they found a large "cachet" of weapons.

One of the bad things in English is that we like to drop French words into the mix. Those are supposed to make us seem more sophisticated. Unless we mispronounce them as we inevitably do!
G . T a t a r

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Re: Pronunciation

#30 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 19th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Several extensive threads on the subject. This one in particular

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=130104&hilit=pronounce

Maybe a merge?
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Re: Pronunciation

#31 Post by YLee » July 19th, 2019, 4:30 pm

GregT wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Which some people mispronounce "inneresting".

On the radio the other day I heard a woman newscaster talking about a house police had raided where they found a large "cachet" of weapons.

One of the bad things in English is that we like to drop French words into the mix. Those are supposed to make us seem more sophisticated. Unless we mispronounce them as we inevitably do!
Drives me nuts when people say innernet
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Re: Pronunciation

#32 Post by John Morris » July 19th, 2019, 5:26 pm

GregT wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Which some people mispronounce "inneresting".

On the radio the other day I heard a woman newscaster talking about a house police had raided where they found a large "cachet" of weapons.

One of the bad things in English is that we like to drop French words into the mix. Those are supposed to make us seem more sophisticated. Unless we mispronounce them as we inevitably do!
All the bolded words come from French, you sophisticate, you. ("Sophisticated" and "inevitable" come from Latin.)
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Re: Pronunciation

#33 Post by EHeffner » July 19th, 2019, 6:38 pm

I don’t think I’ll ever pronounce Mourvedre correctly.
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Re: Pronunciation

#34 Post by Nola Palomar » July 19th, 2019, 6:49 pm

It drives me nuts when people, especially reporters say “Day-un. There is a - T - in the word “Dayton”
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Re: Pronunciation

#35 Post by GregT » July 19th, 2019, 7:28 pm

Love the glottal stop!

Another one is something I've increasingly heard on weather reports - temp-a-ture instead of temperature.
G . T a t a r

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Re: Pronunciation

#36 Post by David Baum » July 19th, 2019, 10:44 pm

GregT making wine /kul/ again

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Re: Pronunciation

#37 Post by John A Hunt » July 20th, 2019, 7:58 am

Frank Z wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:16 am
Markus S wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:39 am
Eisele, like 'essel'?
I believe its 'eyes-lee'.
The Isley Brothers made "Eisele" easy for me. Always pronounced both the same.

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Re: Pronunciation

#38 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 20th, 2019, 8:16 am

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 11:52 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 11:28 am
JFK might have said, pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd, as we think of the accent. Cliff on Cheers would have sounded rather different.
No argument, there are many variations on all sorts of accents. It didn't decrease the efficacy of that trick with my students.

Tying back to my original point, though, unless you study these things or have a talent for it, you may not be able to distinguish. Thus one of the difficulties in reproducing unfamiliar sounds - the ear, in addition to the mouth.
I wasn't arguing with you, just joking about Boston accents. When it comes to teaching, any trick that works is, god knows, a good one.

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Re: Pronunciation

#39 Post by Alan Rath » July 20th, 2019, 10:26 am

GregT wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Which some people mispronounce "inneresting".

On the radio the other day I heard a woman newscaster talking about a house police had raided where they found a large "cachet" of weapons.

One of the bad things in English is that we like to drop French words into the mix. Those are supposed to make us seem more sophisticated. Unless we mispronounce them as we inevitably do!
Newspaper headline the next day: "Police sashay to cachet"
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Re: Pronunciation

#40 Post by GregT » July 20th, 2019, 11:32 am

Alan Rath wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 10:26 am
GregT wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Which some people mispronounce "inneresting".

On the radio the other day I heard a woman newscaster talking about a house police had raided where they found a large "cachet" of weapons.

One of the bad things in English is that we like to drop French words into the mix. Those are supposed to make us seem more sophisticated. Unless we mispronounce them as we inevitably do!
Newspaper headline the next day: "Police sashay to cachet"
High fives all around for the wit!
G . T a t a r

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Re: Pronunciation

#41 Post by Thomas Keim » July 20th, 2019, 10:54 pm

Frank Z wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 10:16 am
Markus S wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 6:39 am
Eisele, like 'essel'?
I believe its 'eyes-lee'.
I always pronounced it "Eye-Ze-Lee"
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