The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

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Sean S y d n e y
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#51 Post by Sean S y d n e y »

What a wonderful & incredibly informative thread.

We're currently pouring two of the Gonzalez Bastias selections by the glass at the wine bar I work at and it's my first real experience with Pais. The Tinaja is sort of like gamay gone bad (in a good way) with a lovely wild, spicy quality - great with a slight chill on it - and the Naranjo skin contact is like elderflower juice; has incredible freshness missing from so many orange wines that I crave if I'm going to have more than a few sips and people of all levels of experience with wine seem to absolutely adore it. I've also had their Matorral which seems to have a bit more oomph, rusticity and pepperiness.

I would love the chance to try some of the California expressions mentioned here.

Thanks to all again for showcasing this beguiling grape!
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#52 Post by Hank Victor »

2976D83D-9B27-4706-B70B-7473ED22DD90.jpeg
Pax 2019 Mission
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#53 Post by Ken Zinns »

Criolla Chica from Argentina. Notes below from a tasting I attended this past Saturday.

35104654-6BCA-4248-8C42-DEA6C0DA5642.jpeg

Bodega y Viñedos Catena
This century-old Argentine family winery from the Mendoza region launched a new “La Marchigiana” program of natural wines in 2019 with three bottlings – Chardonnay, Criolla Chica, and Bonarda. These wines are fermented in tinajas – traditional clay vessels similar to amphorae or qvevri. They poured one wine at the event, the 2017 “La Marchigiana” Criolla Chica, from Mendoza, with no added sulfur. Criolla Chica is the same grape variety as País in Chile and Mission in California, and the similar character was evident – light color with upfront red fruit, undertones of earth and herbs, and fairly light body with a lively texture and finish.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#54 Post by Hank Victor »

Ken Zinns wrote: March 6th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Hank Victor wrote: March 6th, 2020, 10:32 am Pax just released a new Mission wine today in his Spring Release. (Adam mentioned him buying 20 tons in post #26)

2019 Pax Mission, Somer’s Vineyard

Savory and spicy on the nose this light red adds copious floral and fruity notes on the palate that mix with hints of pepper and umami to make for a deliciously quaffable red that has just enough crunchy tannin to keep everything in check.

100% Mission
100% Somers Vineyard, Mokelumne River, Lodi
100% Whole Cluster Fermentation
4-Month élevage in Neutral French Oak and one month in Concrete
Free So2 @ Bottling – 4ppm
3.6 pH
12.5% Abv

Planted in the dry riverbed at a sharp bend of the Lower Mokelumne River and presumed to date back to the the early 1900s, these old vines have exceptionally large trunks and many are over six feet tall. The deep sandy loam soils are incredibly well suited to dry farming and these vines have been farmed with organic products since day one. Delicious with tacos or tikka masala, Burgers or Bahn Mis, this light red is just about perfect with everything we’ve paired it with to date.

A photo to give you an idea of how tall some of the old Mission vines are at Somers Vineyard (it’s Somers, not Somer’s, BTW) - that’s Bryan Harrington checking out the vines on our first visit there in 2015.


9569A60F-10BC-46F0-9532-FDED845180E7.jpeg

I have to take some credit for finding this vineyard source, when I was working with Bryan Harrington. I was looking for Mission fruit in 2015 to make Angelica, and asked Marco Cappelli (the most knowledgeable winemaker regarding Angelica) if he had any tips. He mentioned Deaver but thought they would not have any fruit available, and then mentioned this vineyard, which didn’t even have a name at that time. I got in touch with the vineyard manager, and they did have fruit available. Most of their fruit at that time was going to a larger outfit - can’t recall who it was - and they weren’t doing anything very interesting with it.

I got Bryan Harrington to take a look at the vineyard with me and he loved it - sandy alluvial soil right in the Mokelumne River bottom - and decided to take some Mission fruit himself to see if we could make a good wine from it. We experimented with several different fermentation techniques and what we liked best was 50% each carbonic and foot-trod whole cluster. The wine was then aged for a few months in neutral French oak and bottled in early Spring. Made some good early-drinking 2015 Mission wine from that, and the Angelica turned out really well too. Likely the first “serious” dry Mission wine to come from that site (IIRC Marco had made some Angelica from here).The Somers name comes from the vineyard property owner.

I help out with bottling at Broc Cellars and got Chris Brockway connected with the vineyard manager in 2016 - I believe he’s continuing to work with fruit from there. Now that Bryan is no longer making wine, it’s great to see Chris, Adam, and now Pax continue working with Somers Vineyard Mission.
They misspelled the vineyard on the label.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#55 Post by Adam Frisch »

So, how is the Pax one?
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#56 Post by Ken Zinns »

Hank Victor wrote: March 13th, 2020, 6:36 am
Ken Zinns wrote: March 6th, 2020, 1:06 pm it’s Somers, not Somer’s, BTW
They misspelled the vineyard on the label.
Well, I've seen vineyard names, AVAs, even grape varieties misspelled on wine labels. I know some were typos that didn't get caught when checking the label proofs, but I'm sure that others were due to not knowing how things were properly spelled. It happens.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#57 Post by Hank Victor »

Adam Frisch wrote: March 13th, 2020, 9:25 am So, how is the Pax one?
Pretty neat wine. 12.5 abv but a pretty intense tannin structure. A lot of spicy , floral and savory notes not much fruit. Served chilled and with food. I bought a 6 pack for a buddy and took one bottle but I don’t see myself seeking this out again. Still a very interesting and good wine for $18.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#58 Post by Ken Zinns »

Hank Victor wrote: March 14th, 2020, 7:56 am
Adam Frisch wrote: March 13th, 2020, 9:25 am So, how is the Pax one?
Pretty neat wine. 12.5 abv but a pretty intense tannin structure. A lot of spicy , floral and savory notes not much fruit. Served chilled and with food. I bought a 6 pack for a buddy and took one bottle but I don’t see myself seeking this out again. Still a very interesting and good wine for $18.
Thanks for the note, Hank. It would be interesting to taste this alongside the other Missions from Somers Vineyard - Sabelli-Frisch, Broc, and Harrington. Though I don't know whether there's any Harrington Mission still available anywhere - 2017 was the last vintage we released and it was always meant for early drinking.

The "not much fruit" aspect of your tasting note is largely why we did 50% whole cluster and 50% carbonic with the Mission at Harrington - whole cluster to provide structure and complexity and carbonic to bring out the fruit. We experimented with several fermentation techniques the first year we got the fruit (2015) and that combination worked best for giving us what we were looking for. Mission does tend to have more tannin than you'd expect for such a light-colored red.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#59 Post by Adam Frisch »

Yes, Mission is more tannic than it would appear.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#60 Post by Tom DeBiase »

Cross Post.

From a Vineyard planted in 1854!! Now those are some old vines

2017 Sandlands Mission Amador County Wine:

Fruity raspberry candy, spicy nose. Cranberry-raspberry red fruit flavors, big hit of cinnamon stick and hints of sweet orange. Fruit is plenty ripe but not overdone. Low on acidity but not clumsy as there is some tannin to help keep it fresh. 2017 vintage shows here. Fruit is ripe but still staying on the "red" side. Overall, not a profound wine but very drinkable and enjoyable. I can see putting a slight chill on this for the hot summer weather. 12.9% ABV for those interested. After having this I would love to try the 2018 version to see vintage differences.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#61 Post by Ken Zinns »

Thanks for posting your note, Tom. I'd be really curious to try this one. Any info on how the wine was made?

I'm sure I've posted the photo below farther up in this thread, but this is one of the old Mission vines at Deaver Ranch, where the fruit for this wine was sourced, from a visit there with Ken Deaver last May. As far as is known, these are the oldest continuously-producing commercial winegrape vines in California.

04 deaver mission vines.jpg
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#62 Post by Adam Frisch »

I think I've managed to get Tegan to agree to swap one of his for one of mine, but not sure... [thumbs-up.gif]

It's been awhile since I had his Mission. Think it was the first vintage, so can't really recall how it was, but I remember it as good.
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Re: Here's One..

#63 Post by Ken Zinns »

TomHill wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:10 am Tried this last weekend:
2. Bichi Listan Tacate/BajaCalif/MX (12.5%; U; www.JosePastorSelections) Tellez & Luyt/Tecate 2016: Light garnet bit browning rather cloudy/murky color; quite pretty floral/rose petal rather spicy/cinammon light pencilly/old oak some earthy/dusty/OV very fragrant/attractive nose rather soft/underacid/fat some old oak/pencilly very strong floral/rose petal slight natty/coarse/rustic rather earthy/dusty/OV some tangy/mature complex flavor w/ light coarse/tangy tannins; very long floral/rose petal/spicy/cinammon slight natty/mousey/hantavirus finish w/ light tangy tannins; very lovely/attractive floral nose but a bit too natty/hantavirus/unclean on the palate for my taste.
Next day: Bit more browning in color; still some pretty/Mission/rose petal aromatics but the natty/hantavirus character showing in the nose; very light floral/rose petal rather natty/hantavirus flavor w/ a dreadful mousey/natty/hantavirus/stale mouse poop finish that went on & on for several minutes; difficult to extinguish that foul taste left in the mouth even w/ sparkling water; maybe the foulest wine I have ever tasted. $23.00 (KK)
_______________________________
A wee BloodyPulpit:
1. "Bichi" means "naked" in the Sonoran dialect. It reflects that Bichi produces "natural" wines, since 2014. From 100 yo vines. Fermeted in large tinajas. Bttld w/ 10 ppm SO2.
When tasted as a P&P, the aromatics demonstrated what a pretty wine Mission (Listan Prieta) can give, in the right hands. These were not the right hands for this wine.
When I tasted it the naxt day, it was probably the foulest wine I've ever tasted. The hantavirus was not an aftertaste you could get rid of. The wine is definitely headed South at a breakneck pace. I will probably buy another btl and age it for a few yrs just to find out how really bad this wine will become.
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Tom, I happened to have the 2017 Bichi Listan yesterday at lunch at a Broc Cellars bottling. I've had really mixed luck with Bichi wines, very hit or miss. But the bottle we had at lunch was very nice, certainly among the best (and cleanest) Bichi wines I've tried.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#64 Post by Adam Frisch »

For the nerds and Ken:

Just had word via social media that 3 of the Angeleno wineries that take fruit exclusively from Los Angeles County have found a dormant Mission vineyard in northern part of the County and are reviving it. It's apparently planted in 1899, which should make it one of the oldest surviving (after the Mission San Gabriel and Olvera St "mother vine" stem). Anyway, it probably wont yield much initially as it's been seriously neglected, but maybe for 2021 harvest.

It's fun that traditionally much more classically focused wineries are now trying their hands with Mission. Gives it more legitimacy. I can see it filling a little domestic Gamay or Nebbiolo niche in the future, maybe. The more the merrier. [thumbs-up.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#65 Post by Ken Zinns »

Adam Frisch wrote: June 23rd, 2020, 8:29 pm For the nerds and Ken:

Just had word via social media that 3 of the Angeleno wineries that take fruit exclusively from Los Angeles County have found a dormant Mission vineyard in northern part of the County and are reviving it. It's apparently planted in 1899, which should make it one of the oldest surviving (after the Mission San Gabriel and Olvera St "mother vine" stem). Anyway, it probably wont yield much initially as it's been seriously neglected, but maybe for 2021 harvest.

It's fun that traditionally much more classically focused wineries are now trying their hands with Mission. Gives it more legitimacy. I can see it filling a little domestic Gamay or Nebbiolo niche in the future, maybe. The more the merrier. [thumbs-up.gif]
Nice - sounds intriguing! I should have another Mission report in a couple of days.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#66 Post by Ken Zinns »

I wanted to post a brief note on two Mission wines tasted over the past week - Sandlands 2017 and 2018, both sourced from Deaver Ranch in Amador County's Shenandoah Valley. The vines are believed to be the oldest continuously producing commercial winegrape vines in California, possibly dating from 1853 or 1854.

I really enjoyed both of these wines - both were lighter in color and body and had lots of red fruit. The 2017 showed more herbal notes in support and the 2018 had more floral notes, along with an undercurrent of herbs and maybe a touch of orangepeel. Mission is known for not having high acidity, but both of these had pleasant acidity and fairly mild tannins. Both were made from destemmed fruit, and had no additions other than some SO2. Opened both during bottling days at Broc Cellars in Berkeley and in both cases the wines were slightly chilled, which I think is a good way to enjoy them. The 2018 was the consensus favorite of the two, seemed a bit more pure and focused - most Mission wines are not really built for aging so it may be the younger one had a built-in edge there. The Sandlands 2018 Mission was certainly among the best California Mission wines I've tried - nice work from Tegan!

sandlands 2017 mission b.jpg
sandlands 2018 mission.jpg
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#67 Post by Adam Frisch »

Nice! Trying to get my hands on some of the new 2018 Sandlands Mission as I've only had the 2017.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#68 Post by Adam Frisch »

Although reviewed in another thread, though I'd post it here for posterity, too:

2019 Pax Mission: Harvested on the same day I took my 2019 from the same Somers Vineyard in the Mokelumne River AVA. They were around 24 Brix, roughly. Pax and Cappiello took about 20tons between the two of them, which is a pretty respectable amount, considering. Shows that they're confident they can sell it. Wine has the tell-tale sign of Mission: great tannins and smoky, enveloped nature. This wine was probably carbonically fermented, as it seems to retain a bit more fruit than mine in comparison (or maybe fermented at lower temps?). In any case, it's more of a glou-glou approach and a wonderful summer drinker. Straddling that fine line between a serious wine and a summer indulgence. Delicious. 91pts.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#69 Post by larry schaffer »

Rusack has just released their first Mission wine, using grapes from their Ballard Canyon estate from cuttings gathered on Santa Cruz Island from an old island vineyard that was planted at the turn of the 19th Century:

https://www.independent.com/2020/06/30/ ... rape-wine/
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#70 Post by Adam Frisch »

That's so interesting, Larry, because I spoke to Steven Gerbac, the winemaker, last year trying to source some Mission from him. Someone had told me that they had a little growing in their unique vineyard on Catalina island and weren't interested in using it, but it turns out I got that wrong (there is none growing in Catalina). But we did talk about his Mission growing in Ballard Canyon. He said he'd made a few barrels but wasn't sure "he liked it" or it would ever "get released". But I'm glad to see this years vintage did get bottled! Now I need to get my hands on some!
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#71 Post by Ken Zinns »

Bottled today at Broc Cellars in Berkeley. 2018 Mission plus two other wines.

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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#72 Post by Adam Frisch »

Wunderbar! I've had the previous Broc Mission, and it was great. BTW Ken, managed to snatch a Rusack Mission as well (from the winemaker), despite being officially sold out. I have quite a few of various Missions on shelf, by now, be fun to do a little tasting or dinner one time with them. I'm sure only 3 people would turn up (2 being us), but nevertheless... [wink.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#73 Post by Ken Zinns »

Adam Frisch wrote: July 16th, 2020, 11:17 pm Wunderbar! I've had the previous Broc Mission, and it was great. BTW Ken, managed to snatch a Rusack Mission as well (from the winemaker), despite being officially sold out. I have quite a few of various Missions on shelf, by now, be fun to do a little tasting or dinner one time with them. I'm sure only 3 people would turn up (2 being us), but nevertheless... [wink.gif]
[thumbs-up.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#74 Post by Mark Y »

Timely thread. Tried the Raj Parr Pais tonight.

It’s aight... light. Fruity. Bright lively rose like. A little natty funk thrown in. What I didn’t like was a hollow mid palate, a rather abrupt end with bitter finish.

Good for a chilled $15-20 casual drinker. How much is the club prices? I hear it’s $75+ which would be uh... not as appealing...😂.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#75 Post by Geoff F. »

It's $30ish, no club membership needed.

Having tasted it with Mark tonight, I agree. It's a crushable summer red best served chilled. I wouldn't drop $35+ on it again though.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#76 Post by Mark Y »

Geoff F. wrote: July 18th, 2020, 1:19 am It's $30ish, no club membership needed.

Having tasted it with Mark tonight, I agree. It's a crushable summer red best served chilled. I wouldn't drop $35+ on it again though.
Ahh ok $30ish makes sense... overpriced, but at least not obscene. ;)
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#77 Post by Andrew Hall »

Is Harrington Mission still a thing? I had it a couple years ago at Augustine in LA and loved it. Not seen an entry in CT past the 2017, so wasn't sure if it was still made.

Loved the Pax the other night and the Bichi (when on) is absolutely amazing.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#78 Post by Ken Zinns »

Andrew Hall wrote: July 18th, 2020, 2:18 pm Is Harrington Mission still a thing? I had it a couple years ago at Augustine in LA and loved it. Not seen an entry in CT past the 2017, so wasn't sure if it was still made.

Loved the Pax the other night and the Bichi (when on) is absolutely amazing.
Bryan Harrington closed down his winery prior to last year’s harvest and he didn’t release a Mission from 2018, so 2017 was the last vintage of Harrington Mission. Glad you enjoyed it!

Haven’t tried the Pax, and I agree about the Bichi - really nice when you get a good bottle, but my experience has been hit and miss.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#79 Post by Ken Zinns »

Tasted the Sabelli-Frisch Mission today, thanks to Sean Smith. It was a bagged mystery wine, and I think most people guessed it was a Pinot Noir. Noticeably different from other California Mission wines I’ve tried, but quite good. Nice work, Adam! [cheers.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#80 Post by Adam Frisch »

Thanks Ken! And interesting that Sean blinded it - would have loved to be fly on the wall for that. Had another wine tasting group down here do the same with and they also came to the Pinot conclusion, which is interesting. I can kind of see it and not. Maybe it's the lightness that gets people there. [cheers.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#81 Post by Andrew Hall »

Ken Zinns wrote: July 18th, 2020, 6:34 pm
Andrew Hall wrote: July 18th, 2020, 2:18 pm Is Harrington Mission still a thing? I had it a couple years ago at Augustine in LA and loved it. Not seen an entry in CT past the 2017, so wasn't sure if it was still made.

Loved the Pax the other night and the Bichi (when on) is absolutely amazing.
Bryan Harrington closed down his winery prior to last year’s harvest and he didn’t release a Mission from 2018, so 2017 was the last vintage of Harrington Mission. Glad you enjoyed it!

Haven’t tried the Pax, and I agree about the Bichi - really nice when you get a good bottle, but my experience has been hit and miss.
Thanks. I thought that but I saw a thread here 'down but not out' on Harrington, so I was confused.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#82 Post by Ken Zinns »

Andrew Hall wrote: July 20th, 2020, 3:06 pm
Ken Zinns wrote: July 18th, 2020, 6:34 pm
Andrew Hall wrote: July 18th, 2020, 2:18 pm Is Harrington Mission still a thing? I had it a couple years ago at Augustine in LA and loved it. Not seen an entry in CT past the 2017, so wasn't sure if it was still made.

Loved the Pax the other night and the Bichi (when on) is absolutely amazing.
Bryan Harrington closed down his winery prior to last year’s harvest and he didn’t release a Mission from 2018, so 2017 was the last vintage of Harrington Mission. Glad you enjoyed it!

Haven’t tried the Pax, and I agree about the Bichi - really nice when you get a good bottle, but my experience has been hit and miss.
Thanks. I thought that but I saw a thread here 'down but not out' on Harrington, so I was confused.
Bryan has indeed closed his winery but he still has some wine left to sell! He put together a few 6-pack options on that "down but not out" offering but he's open to working with people if they're interested in specific wines that he still has in stock. I do think he's sold out of all the dry Mission wines but I think he still has some of the Mission Angelica sweet wines available.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#83 Post by Tom G l a s g o w »

A1175AC9-4768-4EC5-8D04-40EBC06658E8.jpeg
Adam Frisch wrote: July 1st, 2020, 4:53 am Although reviewed in another thread, though I'd post it here for posterity, too:

2019 Pax Mission: Harvested on the same day I took my 2019 from the same Somers Vineyard in the Mokelumne River AVA. They were around 24 Brix, roughly. Pax and Cappiello took about 20tons between the two of them, which is a pretty respectable amount, considering. Shows that they're confident they can sell it. Wine has the tell-tale sign of Mission: great tannins and smoky, enveloped nature. This wine was probably carbonically fermented, as it seems to retain a bit more fruit than mine in comparison (or maybe fermented at lower temps?). In any case, it's more of a glou-glou approach and a wonderful summer drinker. Straddling that fine line between a serious wine and a summer indulgence. Delicious. 91pts.
Pax is Definitely more glou glou, a light red my wife mistook for a rose. Served at 60F indoors.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#84 Post by Adam Frisch »

Tried the 2019 Russack Mission in this thread. Loved it.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172375
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#85 Post by Drew Goin »

Okay, I typed up a response to a conversation about the use of "Rose of Peru" vs "Mission" on the "Saving Old Vineyards - Economics versus Heritage" thread, but decided that it best fit this thread instead.

Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:56 pm
Ken Zinns wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:02 pm
Adam Frisch wrote: March 8th, 2020, 3:22 pm I saw some of the photos of those Mission vines on his Insta - it's amazing anything could be harvested from them. I also though Rosa de Peru and Mission are the same, but Abe refers to them as separate.
From everything I've read, they are the same variety - perhaps a clonal variation such as with Zinfandel and Primitivo?
He talks about the genetic diversity of the variety in the Lone Wolf notes. I looked into that a bit when researching the Argentine Torrontes varieties. Iirc, all three have Mission (Criola Chica in Argentina) as a parent, and the best one and another are Mission x Muscat of Alexandria crosses. This was over a decade ago, so I'm sure a lot more info is available, but it sounded like skin thickness varies quite a bit by location. Some of that would be due to mutation and some site adaptation. Anyway, maybe he has some historic (site specific?) basis. I'm sure it would be fair to assume those two are distinct. I know Rose of Peru was a common name for the grape. There's a romanticism to it. We've seen the name Mission from the 1860s. Maybe it's a case of newer nurserymen appealing to the sentiments of the American immigrants into the new state. It does seem Mission is more of a northern California name, while commercial Angelica production started in the L.A. basin, where you see historic Rose of Peru name usage.

I thought Rosa de Peru = Mission as well. Wes' statement has me intrigued, however. While I have not read much on the regional names for the Mission variety, it sounds logical.

If you want to rely on the Vitis International Variety Catalogue (VIVC), there are 45 alternative names for the winegrape variety known as Listan Prieto - including "Rose of Peru". However, "Rose of Peru" also serves as a synonym for Black Prince, a different variety.



Just a random note: Sunce currently offers a 2017 "Rosa del Peru" from the "Sandy Lane Vineyard" in Contra Costa County.

Screen-Shot-2020-05-13-at-10.32.48-PM.png

I am 99% certain that the usage of the name "Rosa del Peru" in this instance is poetic creativity on the part of the winery. In all of my previous experiences, references of this variety have read "Mission" (with regard to Contra Costa).


Sunce Winery website:
https://suncewinery.com
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#86 Post by Wes Barton »

It's my understanding Rose of Peru is the Anglicized historic California name, from the Spanish Rosa de Peru, since the grape came to the missions from Peru. Seems like a more romantic, more marketable name. I'd guess Mission came naturally from people describing it as "the mission grape" rather than an intentional renaming.

Interesting Black Price is another Mission x Muscat of Alexandria, like (two of the white) "Torontes" varieties. It'd be interesting to try one, to contrast with Black Muscat and Bracchetto.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#87 Post by Adam Frisch »

Drew Goin wrote: November 28th, 2020, 3:30 pm Okay, I typed up a response to a conversation about the use of "Rose of Peru" vs "Mission" on the "Saving Old Vineyards - Economics versus Heritage" thread, but decided that it best fit this thread instead.

Wes Barton wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:56 pm
Ken Zinns wrote: March 8th, 2020, 4:02 pm
From everything I've read, they are the same variety - perhaps a clonal variation such as with Zinfandel and Primitivo?
He talks about the genetic diversity of the variety in the Lone Wolf notes. I looked into that a bit when researching the Argentine Torrontes varieties. Iirc, all three have Mission (Criola Chica in Argentina) as a parent, and the best one and another are Mission x Muscat of Alexandria crosses. This was over a decade ago, so I'm sure a lot more info is available, but it sounded like skin thickness varies quite a bit by location. Some of that would be due to mutation and some site adaptation. Anyway, maybe he has some historic (site specific?) basis. I'm sure it would be fair to assume those two are distinct. I know Rose of Peru was a common name for the grape. There's a romanticism to it. We've seen the name Mission from the 1860s. Maybe it's a case of newer nurserymen appealing to the sentiments of the American immigrants into the new state. It does seem Mission is more of a northern California name, while commercial Angelica production started in the L.A. basin, where you see historic Rose of Peru name usage.

I thought Rosa de Peru = Mission as well. Wes' statement has me intrigued, however. While I have not read much on the regional names for the Mission variety, it sounds logical.

If you want to rely on the Vitis International Variety Catalogue (VIVC), there are 45 alternative names for the winegrape variety known as Listan Prieto - including "Rose of Peru". However, "Rose of Peru" also serves as a synonym for Black Prince, a different variety.



Just a random note: Sunce currently offers a 2017 "Rosa del Peru" from the "Sandy Lane Vineyard" in Contra Costa County.


Screen-Shot-2020-05-13-at-10.32.48-PM.png


I am 99% certain that the usage of the name "Rosa del Peru" in this instance is poetic creativity on the part of the winery. In all of my previous experiences, references of this variety have read "Mission" (with regard to Contra Costa).


Sunce Winery website:
https://suncewinery.com
Drew, I know for a fact that the Sandy Lane Vineyards grow Mission, so like you say, this must be poetic creativity.

Funnily enough, I myself toyed with the idea in the early days to refer to it as "Listan Prieto", to get away from the slightly mundane sounding Mission and the bad connotations the grape has here. But then I thought that would just ring false - better to own its name and try to improve it.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#88 Post by Drew Goin »

Adam Frisch wrote: November 29th, 2020, 7:22 am Drew, I know for a fact that the Sandy Lane Vineyards grow Mission, so like you say, this must be poetic creativity.

Funnily enough, I myself toyed with the idea in the early days to refer to it as "Listan Prieto", to get away from the slightly mundane sounding Mission and the bad connotations the grape has here. But then I thought that would just ring false - better to own its name and try to improve it.

Adam, I believe that it's still early days in establishing Mission in the public eye as a modern, legitimate variety. Now is not the time to confuse potential clients. Just my unsolicited opinion.


Having said that, the press has made a few minor efforts to revitalize interest in the grape:



San Francisco Chronicle
"Mission Revival: State's First Wine Grape, Circa 1760, Rides Again"

by Esther Mobley
March 23, 2017


"...What makes Mission a risky planting decision? Simple. It doesn’t produce a very good wine. Though that, of course, is up for debate.

"...Others advocated the preservation of Mission. Julius Dresel, whose brother Emil planted the Sonoma Valley property where Scribe Winery now stands, wrote to the editors of the Daily Alta California in 1872 that the Mission wine from his brother’s estate was 'pure of taste, ripe and unctuous' and 'of a marked Burgundy flavor', praising its 'sweetness and high percentage of genuine alcohol.'

"California Gov. John Downey took a strong stand, too. 'We may and do want other varieties of vines, but be slow in your changes,' Downey cautioned, as quoted in the Los Angeles Times in 1883. 'Stick to your so-called Mission. We have not yet found its substitute, its equal, or peer. It is an old friend; cling to it with affection, and let our friends at the north follow that vagary of jumping from one thing to another.'

"Suffice it to say, Downey’s team lost. And that 'vagary' resulted in the California wine industry as we know it today, capable of producing long-lived Pinot Noirs, Chardonnays and Syrahs that rival the best in the world. Which is more than could be said for Mission, whose wines are light in color, low in acid and — it must be said — short on complexity.

rawImage.jpg

"Yet a number of wineries have started making Mission again in recent years, whether from ancient vineyards survived from the 19th century (sites like Deaver and Story in Amador County and Somers in Lodi) or — as at Rusack and Scribe — planting it anew.

“'In the past five years, the interest in our Mission vines has skyrocketed,' says Rob Campbell, whose Story Vineyard in Plymouth contains 1 acre of Mission planted in 1894. 'Right around harvest I will get 10 to 20 calls from people saying, ‘hey, got any Mission to sell?' Fifteen years ago, Campbell felt lucky if he could charge $500 per ton for his Mission fruit. Now the Amador County average is $2,300 — more than Zinfandel.

"As hardy as the settlers who brought it, the grape has obvious appeal for a less-advanced era of viticulture. 'When you look at a vine, you see why the Spaniards brought it,' says Brian Maloney, winemaker for Buena Vista, which — despite its founder’s anti-Mission position — has just released its first angelica. High-yielding and impervious to mold and mildew, as Maloney puts it, these are 'big vigorous vines, with thick skins, big tannins, which I assume would make it resistant to bugs. It was able to thrive.'

"...Bizarrely, Mission’s thick skins do not translate to a darkly colored wine, as you’d expect. It’s so light and translucent that you might mistake it for rosé. Yet the wine is intensely bitter, as if from tannins, with a pithy orange-peel flavor and an oily, viscous texture.

"Some winemakers, like Bryan Harrington and Chris Brockway, like it for that light-bodied quaffability, and even emphasize that quality by fermenting it carbonically. Harrington, whose translucent, dry 2016 Somers Vineyard Mission tastes like raspberry candy and grapefruit, is drawn to Mission for the same reason he’s drawn to other earthy, light-bodied grapes like Trousseau, Corvina and Poulsard.

“'It’s meant to be enjoyed young and with relish,' Harrington says.

Other contemporary Mission makers dismiss its virtues as a dry wine, however, opting instead to focus on fortified angelica. 'As a table wine, it’s pretty simple, I think,' says Bill Wathen, who produces angelica at his Foxen Winery in Santa Maria (Santa Barbara County).

"...It all makes a good story, maybe too good of a story. The ur-vine, the parent of California viticulture — the history of the Mission grape calls irresistibly to our nostalgia. As a storyteller, I love imagining these bizarre, contorted frontier vines, stalwart counterparts to the California newcomers.

"But as a wine drinker, I fear that Mission wine, whether dry or fortified, delivers more pleasure from novelty than from taste. I can enjoy the treacle of an angelica or the arrestingly pithy bite of a Mission table wine. But there’s a limit to how much I’m willing to pay for nostalgic value...".
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#89 Post by Drew Goin »

Los Angeles has a strange commitment to embracing its historical connections with the Mission grape. On one hand, efforts have been made to create new plantings in vacant parcels of land in parts of the city. On the other, wines produced by the variety have received a lukewarm reception by the press.



LA Times
"The Mission Grape is Cool in LA Again, Thanks to the Natural Wine Movement"

by Richard Parks III
May 9, 2019


"...The Mission grape first came to the city from Spain, where it is known as listán prieto, with Father Junípero Serra, whose priests planted vines from New Mexico down to Baja; it is also grown in Peru and Chile, where it is known as criolla and pais. By 1850, the year California became a state, L.A. County was home to 100 vineyards and wineries.

"During Prohibition, the Tecate vineyards that Tellez farms today produced wine that was smuggled into America. As California became famous for wine, and Tecate became a beer town, the Mission grape all but disappeared from the region. The Mission’s ancestral relation, listán prieto, also nearly died out in Spain, and now is mostly grown in the Canary Islands.

"According to the Department of Agriculture, there are about 400 acres of Mission grapes statewide, compared with the 10,000 acres estimated in Santa Ana alone in the 1850s.

"Many vines are left uncultivated, or their grapes are blended for jug wine. Rarely, they are made into Angelica — a sweet fortified wine the mission priests made — notably by Santa Barbara’s Gypsy Canyon and San Francisco’s Harrington Wines, which also bottles a dry version. A Los Angeles city archivist named Michael Holland tends to two hybrid Mission grape plants growing behind the Avila Adobe, L.A.’s oldest structure, on Olvera Street, and makes wine from them.

"In the land of Cabernet, the Mission grape has its critics. A winemaker I spoke to called it 'flabby, spineless'. It doesn’t age well; it isn’t a wine for the cellar. But even detractors see its value.

"Despite saying Mission grape wine tastes like 'a wet hamster going down,' local wine historian Ned Teitelbaum plans to plant Mission grapes in public spaces around the city. He hopes that the grape, which has survived across cultures and time periods and borders, can have a more permanent place in L.A., where once it was so prominent but now exists only as an import.

“'The story behind the wine,' he says, 'has become more important than the wine.'


LA Times
"What to Do with Grapes from 150-Year-Old Vines at Olvera Street? Make Wine, of Course"

September 18, 2015


Okay, so the article below discusses the harvesting of grapes from an old Mission-hybrid vine ("Mother Vine") at San Gabriel's Mission. Nevertheless, the individuals involved are part of the effort to promote awareness of the Mission variety and its historic ties to California winemaking:

download.jpeg

LA Times
"Wine from the ‘Mother Vine’: A Trio of L.A. Winemakers are Harvesting Historic Grapes at San Gabriel Mission"

by Garrett Snyder
October 9, 2020


"...A direct descendant of plantings made by Father Junipero Serra, the vines at San Gabriel Mission are something of an anomaly, viticulturally speaking.

"A DNA test performed by UC Davis researchers in 2014 found that they were a cross between Vitis girdiana, a wild grape native to Southern California, and Vitis vinifera, otherwise known as the Mission grape, a prolific varietal that was carried from Spain and planted across the Americas...".
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#90 Post by Adam Frisch »

It feels to me that these articles are mostly regurgitating the old self-referential nonsense that has prevailed in book after book on American viticulture - and that is that Mission is not worthy of making wine from. That it's a garbage grape. It's in every book ever written here, but I doubt the writers came to that conclusion empirically - they just copied endlessly what previous books have said. I guess Bryan Harrington, Rajat Parr, Pax Mahle, Patrick Cappiello, Broc, Rusack, Envinante etc and numerous others are so clueless that someone must really save them from themselves? I mean, has nobody told them? [wink.gif]

Here's a few year old Decanter article on 5 Chilean Pais renditions. Not one below 90pts. Not one above $16 in price. Would we find as readily a Chard, Pinot or Cab in that price point that would even hit 90pts? I very much doubt it. So, objectively, and definitely, it's not a garbage grape. And nor are any other grapes, conversely.

https://www.decanter.com/wine-reviews-t ... 0y%20Toro.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#91 Post by Drew Goin »

I was looking for some information on another topic when I rediscovered this archived article. Gentlemen like Harry Parducci, Joel Peterson, Sean Thackery, Gordon Binz, and Kent Rosenblum contributed their thoughts on historical wine grape farming practices and the importance of utilizing old plantings in modern winemaking. Below is an excerpt related to the Mission variety.


Metroactive Archives
Sonoma Independent
"Old-Vine Wines: In Praise of Reds: Savoring the Taste of Tradition Among Sonoma County's Time-Honored Wines"

by Steve Bjerklie
February 29, 1996


"The first vineyard planted in the county was the planting of Mission grapes the Spanish friars at Mission San Francisco Solano de Sonoma put into the ground in the 1820s, and which later came under the ownership of Vallejo when Mexico secularized the mission properties in 1834. Across the street from the Sebastiani parking lot is a large Mission vine pruned into a huge canopy; this vine is a direct descendant of the original Sonoma mission's grapes. A few old Mission grape vines may also exist in Bennett Valley."


I wonder if, almost 25 years later, any of the Mission vines mentioned in the article remain. One would think a terribly vague statement like, "A few old Mission grape vines may also exist in Bennett Valley," would not be merited unless there was some truth to it. The author's piece focuses on viticultural survivors: vineyards that evaded the hazards of nature and mankind; vineyards that provide insight into the cultivation practices of times past.

An off-the-cuff inclusion of the supposed location of several Mission vines is most unusual, IMHO.

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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#92 Post by Adam Frisch »

Some of us are still harvesting! [wink.gif]

Took these last Missions from the Somers vineyard day before yesterday for an experimental wine I'm trying. See if it works.

I was surprised at how good of a shape they were in after hanging so long and experiencing first frost (harvest stopped about 1.5 month ago). Stems are fully lignified, but the clusters carry almost no raisins whatsoever - I had expected a lot more. I didn't test the sugar levels when we picked them, but they were sticky as hell and the skins were slipping off. After crush it came in at 30.2 Brix, or a theoretical potential of 19.3% ABV!

But it once again convinces me that the Conquistadors and our old ancestors, knew how sturdy Mission was. And that it was probably the perfect candidate to bring across seas and into unknown lands. It's almost perfectly designed for survival - it has loose clusters that don't suffer bunch rot, it's very vigorous and highly impervious to disease and viruses. It can't just have been a fluke they chose this one. They also chose Muscat of Alexandria and Pedro Ximenez to make that journey and be planted in certain areas - and from what I hear, they're also equally sturdy.

As for experiment: High sugar ferments are always a little risky, so this one I will use a commercial engineered yeast strand, rather than the native strain. These commercial yeasts can better deal with the high potential alcohol. It won't manage to go to 19.3%, but maybe to 17%? And leave some RS in there - which is the plan for this style. Anyway, if I had lived closer by I'd love to go have a look at them on Jan 1 - I have a feeling they'd still have some juice in them and not be all dried up. So potentially, you could harvest 2021 vintage almost a year ahead of the real harvest!
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#93 Post by Matt Wood »

That's awesome Adam, best of luck with the experiment.

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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#94 Post by Wes Barton »

Someone should make a Mission Ice Wine.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#95 Post by Adam Frisch »

Wes Barton wrote: December 7th, 2020, 12:31 pm Someone should make a Mission Ice Wine.
Give me to January! [wink.gif]
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#96 Post by Ken Zinns »

Matt Kettmann of Wine Enthusiast reviewed the Harrington 2017 Mission Angelica and I believe it’s just recently been added to the WE website.

Harrington 2017 Mission Angelica review
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#97 Post by Andrew Hall »

The 2019 Bichi "Listan" is really great. Super crunchy, but clean. A bit of funk. More acids than usual and really balanced. All the current release of Bichi are really good.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#98 Post by Ken Zinns »

Andrew Hall wrote: December 12th, 2020, 3:56 pm The 2019 Bichi "Listan" is really great. Super crunchy, but clean. A bit of funk. More acids than usual and really balanced. All the current release of Bichi are really good.
Good to hear - I’ll keep an eye out for it. I’ve had such mixed experience with Bichi wines in the past - they’ve ranged from very good to undrinkable Brett bombs. Don’t mind a “bit of funk” but it can go too far. Thanks for posting the note.
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#99 Post by Andrew Hall »

I forgot to add this back at the time. The Children's Atlas of Wine (James Sligh) did an online session on Pais at the end of September. Wines from Chambers St. I was a lot of fun and he did a great job with some back story on the grape. I highly recommend his Zoom tastings both for the wines selected and for the value add James brings.
  • 2019 Cara Sur Criolla Chica - Argentina, San Juan, Calingasta Valley (9/29/2020)
    Beautiful glowy light red color. Cinnamon nose. Good texture. Amarena. Nano tannin + all fruit and acid structure. Compact and precise. Really bright and leading to floral. Slight bitters, more Amarena to finish. Lovely and lively.

  • 2019 Cacique Maravilla Pipeño Pais - Chile, Bío-Bío Valley (9/29/2020)
    Ethereal musty nose in a really sexy way - ghost bride. Light texture with light and lifting pippy tannins and hot grapes. Nice acids that then drop beat. Good balance and persistence. Lots of grape sweet tarts. Really nice.

  • 2019 Envinate Benje - Spain, Canary Islands, Tenerife, Ycoden Daute Isora (9/29/2020)
    Yukky. Has smoke/yeast death nose. Reductive matchstick and vent hole stink. (lol, volcano be cool now.) Saline and umami. Palate is far better with red currants and thyme. Good balance and fruit savory elements. A bit of paitan Has merits, but tough.
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(NB - I find this yeast death flaw in pretty all the Envinate wines from the Canary Islands. It has been argued this is 'volcanic terroir' but I think is house style/poor hygiene. )
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Re: The big Mission/Pais/Listan Prieto thread.

#100 Post by Adam Frisch »

Thanks Andrew. I was also really loving the Cara Sur. What a great little wine. Think I have a bottle left.
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Owner, proprietor and winemaker at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

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