6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

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Frank Murray III
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6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#1 Post by Frank Murray III » July 11th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Good meal last night with just 6 wines tasted blind. Was a nice balance between the food, conversation and being able to taste everything in small pours at a relaxed pace. The two Hanzell really yanked our chains with the usual dose of painful humility that comes with tasting wines blind. [pwn.gif] Thanks for reading.
  • 1979 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, alongside the 1980, which made for a cool contrast. I preferred the 1980. Around the table, lots of guesses, and of course, all of them wrong. Many thought old era Cab with age. Not one person said Pinot Noir, including me. Shows some aged aroma, yet the fruit is still alive and tangy. Cedar, eucalyptus and powdered cocoa in the finish, with a note of caramel adding as the wine breathed. A few people at the table thought the oak was still making a presence in the wine. Given some of the markers I mention here, it would seem that is accurate. Just doesn't have the balance of the 1980.
  • 1980 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, alongside the 1979, which made for a cool contrast. For the, this 1980 beats the 1979 by a good margin. Around the table, lots of guesses, and of course, all of them wrong. Many thought old era Cab with age. Not one person said Pinot Noir, including me. Darker in color than the 1979, younger in tone too with a plumper fruit quality of plum, along with cedar. With air, some tobacco and mint comes into the finish of the wine, and overall this shows a good balance and concentration that is pretty amazing to me for a CA PN at 40 years old. Great experience drinking this and the 1979, to see how these wines have aged.
  • 2001 Paul Jaboulet Aîné Hermitage La Chapelle - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, the final wine of the six for the meal. Aromas of coffee. Charred juicy cherry, too. A few at the table thought this had some brett impact but I didn't sense that note. Overall, this seemed out of balance for me.
  • 2016 K Vintners The Boy - USA, Washington (7/11/2019)
    Served blind. This wine took some verbal hits when it was first tasted, as a few of people said too lean, etc. It did show a rose/lightly ruby color too. Initially when I took in the aroma, I thought celery stalk. Red cherry with herb, glossy with a glass-like texture. Has a hard cherry candy core. This wine didn't fare well across the palates last night FWIW.
  • 2018 Liquid Farm Mourvedre Rosé Vogelzang Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Happy Canyon of Santa Barbara (7/11/2019)
    Served blind. Lots of guesses at the table but Brig Campbell nailed the wine blind. Lightly peach colored, with some imprint of licorice, good structure, some density (bit oily) and finishing with just a little bitterness to help give the wine some additional definition. Good Rose here.
  • NV Vilmart & Cie Champagne Premier Cru Grand Cellier Brut - France, Champagne, Champagne Premier Cru (7/11/2019)
    Looks like a new disgorgement for me, as first time I have seen 2017. Disgorged June 2017, 70% Chard, 30% PN. Served blind. Flinty with a berry note on initial taste, with the two mixing in a cool contrast. I found the contrast and intensity most apparent when it was served cooler. Saline, pear and tart apple as the wine warms, and it also picked up some dosage presence that was not noticed when cooler. The acidity has the sweeter lime quality when the wine had lost most of its chill. In sum, this wine fooled me blind, seeming to be leaner and more chiseled so if you want that kind of affect, serve cooler in temp, or serve warmer if you want the fleshier, bit more unctuous quality to show.
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My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence Blanc de Blancs Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Occidental Ridge SC PN
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Platt SC PN
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#2 Post by Todd F r e n c h » July 11th, 2019, 3:56 pm

Where'd you get those old Hanzells?? What a treat
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#3 Post by brigcampbell » July 11th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 3:56 pm
Where'd you get those old Hanzells?? What a treat
Sean bought them from my buddy that sold me the DRC for $20 each. I think he paid $25 a piece the Hanzell? Really neat stuff, I'll get my notes up. The only thing tougher than tasting blind is tasting blind with some age. I had 3 guesses and wasn't even close. I thought they were old Ridge Monte Bello because of the oak/dill. Buzzz!!!!

From that cellar, there's a few more treats lurking as Seiber, Sean, and I purchased about 3-4 cases of fun stuff.

So far, only one bad bottle, a late 1990's Mt. Eden Chardonnay that showed obvious signs of stress but purchased anyway on a prayer.

We are all regretting not buying more but who knew...

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#4 Post by c fu » July 11th, 2019, 4:24 pm

I opened a 74 hanzell to blind on the guys and it did not seem Pinot like at all. It was good. Just unexpected
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#5 Post by larry schaffer » July 11th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Really interesting notes - and I agree that blind tasting can be quite humbling . . .

Anyone know if Hanzell was using American Oak back in the day? Or untoasted barrels? That could explain that flavor profile.

And I agree with tasting older wines and trying to figure out things - for instance, I oftentimes find older zins to be more claret like than anything else.

Cheers.
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#6 Post by Roy Piper » July 11th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Dig these notes.
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#7 Post by Chris Seiber » July 11th, 2019, 5:17 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Anyone know if Hanzell was using American Oak back in the day? Or untoasted barrels? That could explain that flavor profile.

And I agree with tasting older wines and trying to figure out things - for instance, I oftentimes find older zins to be more claret like than anything else.

Cheers.
My guess was California cab from the late 70s or early 80s. I was thinking something like Louis Martini. So I got partial credit, anyway.

I think what steered me to cab earlier on was the healthy amount of rustic wood tannin on what were clearly old wines - the wines had kind of a redwood type of finish to them, as well as that cedary nose that reminds me of old cabernets.

They were good wines. I think they suffered a bit from being poured in between courses - they were better after some more air and when the next food course arrived. They were on the pretty ripe side - I think the 1980 was 14.2 or 14.3.

I agree with Larry that picking varieties in totally blind tasting is much tougher the older the wines get. I'd have far higher odds of picking Cali cab versus pinot if we were tasting the 2014 vintage or something.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#8 Post by Chris Seiber » July 11th, 2019, 5:27 pm

That K Vintners wine was a really outlying one. It was around 14% alcohol, but it smelled and especially tasted like it was 12% or less. Severely lacking in ripeness and body, very gamy and lean.

I think it was mostly grenache, and I know it can be more difficult (though not impossible, depending on the site) to get grenache ripe at lower alcohol levels.

I've never had those Charles Smith wines, and I had always rather assumed they were big modern ripe wines. I don't know if this was an outlier, or if my assumptions about Charles Smith wines were incorrect. Also weird that this wine got high critic scores, which you might not expect for a severely underripe wine.

Hell, maybe we just got a weird bottle or something. Though it didn't have any indication of a flaw that any of us could tell.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#9 Post by John Glas » July 11th, 2019, 8:52 pm

[quote2016 K Vintners The Boy - USA, Washington (7/11/2019)
Served blind. This wine took some verbal hits when it was first tasted, as a few of people said too lean, etc. It did show a rose/lightly ruby color too. Initially when I took in the aroma, I thought celery stalk. Red cherry with herb, glossy with a glass-like texture. Has a hard cherry candy core. This wine didn't fare well across the palates last night FWIW.][/quote] Needs a big decant. Would not serve this on a pop and pour.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#10 Post by Warren Taranow » July 11th, 2019, 9:56 pm

I opened an amazing 1962 Hanzell Pinot Noir at a tasting five years ago. I can't find the note, but it was everyone's WOTN.
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#11 Post by brigcampbell » July 13th, 2019, 12:29 pm

Crushed it! [whistle.gif]
  • 2016 K Vintners The Boy - USA, Washington (7/13/2019)
    Guessed Pax Grenache

    Wow, when this hit the glass I said "Beaujolais - got a be Gamay." because of the translucent garnet color and clarity. The palate screamed Grenache to me - the candied cherry with cinnamon. The issue for me was the mid-palate faded. Steve said "it's missing completely". I heard this received strong scores. Good for them but if I put points tasting blind it, maybe 90... After the reveal it was more surprising because I've heard the house style tends to be big walla walla style. This is not that, not by a long shot. ()
  • 1979 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/13/2019)
    Blind: Guessed early '80's Ridge Monte Bello.

    For me, the nose was dominated by "oak" and I use that term loosely because I wasn't sure, could this have been aged in Redwood? There is light plum fruit, cassis, and Dill. It finishes with a Carmel note. Rioja? American oak? What, Pinot Noir!?! Schooled again.
  • 1980 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/13/2019)
    Blind: guessed early 80's Ridge Monte Bello

    This was paired with the '79 and it was much more youthful. You could tell it was old by the light bricking and the mushroom nose. Fruit was more pronounced with a touch of mint, cinnamon and white pepper. A great example that wine is alive and ever evolving in the bottle, nobody got close to guessing PN. Great experience.
  • 2001 Paul Jaboulet Aîné Hermitage La Chapelle - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (7/13/2019)
    Blind: I thought this was French, maybe CNdP but really struggled with the varietal. There's plum aromos and mild cherry flavor. Very good complexity. Hint of barnyard in the glass when it's empty. Now I'm sure it's a GSM blend. Taken to the shed on this one.
  • 2018 Liquid Farm Mourvedre Rosé Vogelzang Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Happy Canyon of Santa Barbara (7/13/2019)
    Blind: Guessed correctly. I could tell this was Mourvedre but the question was which country? It came across as riper than typical Provence Rosé but still had the mineral base, crushed granite, sliced peach flavor and a little dusty finish. Very nice.
  • NV Vilmart & Cie Champagne Premier Cru Grand Cellier Brut - France, Champagne, Champagne Premier Cru (7/13/2019)
    Blind: Thought this was a big house - Steve called Vilmart and sounded good to me. A couple thought grower but the slightly oxidized note with a sweet finish made me think this was in the higher dosage like 8g/l. I think it's actually 7. I thought there was some Pinot Meunier in here, there's a richness and good salinity.
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#12 Post by Wes Barton » July 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if those Hanzels saw 100% stem inclusion. That could explain the tannic structure and various spice and odd green (like dill) notes that can throw you off from thinking it's PN. I had a similarly mature CA PN last week that had some people commenting it didn't seem like PN (it did to me) because of all its glorious spices and structure.

Two of our brown bag wines yesterday turned out to be Burgs with 100% stem inclusion. Only one out of about 14 people called them as Pinot. The people who brought them couldn't guess the other. We were doing one wine at a time, so even after a reveal, no more people guessed Pinot on the second. (Huge contrast between a wonderfully showing Dujac and a good, but rustic Trousseau-like Maranges.)
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#13 Post by brigcampbell » July 14th, 2019, 8:18 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if those Hanzels saw 100% stem inclusion. That could explain the tannic structure and various spice and odd green (like dill) notes that can throw you off from thinking it's PN. I had a similarly mature CA PN last week that had some people commenting it didn't seem like PN (it did to me) because of all its glorious spices and structure.

Two of our brown bag wines yesterday turned out to be Burgs with 100% stem inclusion. Only one out of about 14 people called them as Pinot. The people who brought them couldn't guess the other. We were doing one wine at a time, so even after a reveal, no more people guessed Pinot on the second. (Huge contrast between a wonderfully showing Dujac and a good, but rustic Trousseau-like Maranges.)
Wes, enlightening post.

I don't drink much old Pinot so there's little reference for me when tasting blind. But I'm learning...

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#14 Post by Jason Jardine » July 17th, 2019, 2:44 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:07 pm
Really interesting notes - and I agree that blind tasting can be quite humbling . . .

Anyone know if Hanzell was using American Oak back in the day? Or untoasted barrels? That could explain that flavor profile.

And I agree with tasting older wines and trying to figure out things - for instance, I oftentimes find older zins to be more claret like than anything else.

Cheers.
Hi Larry,

Hanzell exclusivly used Sirugue from 1956-2010. So all French oak.
Hanzell Farm & Vineyards

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#15 Post by Jason Jardine » July 17th, 2019, 2:45 pm

Frank Murray III wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 3:03 pm
Good meal last night with just 6 wines tasted blind. Was a nice balance between the food, conversation and being able to taste everything in small pours at a relaxed pace. The two Hanzell really yanked our chains with the usual dose of painful humility that comes with tasting wines blind. [pwn.gif] Thanks for reading.
  • 1979 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, alongside the 1980, which made for a cool contrast. I preferred the 1980. Around the table, lots of guesses, and of course, all of them wrong. Many thought old era Cab with age. Not one person said Pinot Noir, including me. Shows some aged aroma, yet the fruit is still alive and tangy. Cedar, eucalyptus and powdered cocoa in the finish, with a note of caramel adding as the wine breathed. A few people at the table thought the oak was still making a presence in the wine. Given some of the markers I mention here, it would seem that is accurate. Just doesn't have the balance of the 1980.
  • 1980 Hanzell Pinot Noir - USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Valley (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, alongside the 1979, which made for a cool contrast. For the, this 1980 beats the 1979 by a good margin. Around the table, lots of guesses, and of course, all of them wrong. Many thought old era Cab with age. Not one person said Pinot Noir, including me. Darker in color than the 1979, younger in tone too with a plumper fruit quality of plum, along with cedar. With air, some tobacco and mint comes into the finish of the wine, and overall this shows a good balance and concentration that is pretty amazing to me for a CA PN at 40 years old. Great experience drinking this and the 1979, to see how these wines have aged.
  • 2001 Paul Jaboulet Aîné Hermitage La Chapelle - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (7/11/2019)
    Served blind, the final wine of the six for the meal. Aromas of coffee. Charred juicy cherry, too. A few at the table thought this had some brett impact but I didn't sense that note. Overall, this seemed out of balance for me.
  • 2016 K Vintners The Boy - USA, Washington (7/11/2019)
    Served blind. This wine took some verbal hits when it was first tasted, as a few of people said too lean, etc. It did show a rose/lightly ruby color too. Initially when I took in the aroma, I thought celery stalk. Red cherry with herb, glossy with a glass-like texture. Has a hard cherry candy core. This wine didn't fare well across the palates last night FWIW.
  • 2018 Liquid Farm Mourvedre Rosé Vogelzang Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Happy Canyon of Santa Barbara (7/11/2019)
    Served blind. Lots of guesses at the table but Brig Campbell nailed the wine blind. Lightly peach colored, with some imprint of licorice, good structure, some density (bit oily) and finishing with just a little bitterness to help give the wine some additional definition. Good Rose here.
  • NV Vilmart & Cie Champagne Premier Cru Grand Cellier Brut - France, Champagne, Champagne Premier Cru (7/11/2019)
    Looks like a new disgorgement for me, as first time I have seen 2017. Disgorged June 2017, 70% Chard, 30% PN. Served blind. Flinty with a berry note on initial taste, with the two mixing in a cool contrast. I found the contrast and intensity most apparent when it was served cooler. Saline, pear and tart apple as the wine warms, and it also picked up some dosage presence that was not noticed when cooler. The acidity has the sweeter lime quality when the wine had lost most of its chill. In sum, this wine fooled me blind, seeming to be leaner and more chiseled so if you want that kind of affect, serve cooler in temp, or serve warmer if you want the fleshier, bit more unctuous quality to show.
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Cool notes Frank. Thank you sharing!
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#16 Post by Jason Jardine » July 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if those Hanzels saw 100% stem inclusion. That could explain the tannic structure and various spice and odd green (like dill) notes that can throw you off from thinking it's PN. I had a similarly mature CA PN last week that had some people commenting it didn't seem like PN (it did to me) because of all its glorious spices and structure.

Two of our brown bag wines yesterday turned out to be Burgs with 100% stem inclusion. Only one out of about 14 people called them as Pinot. The people who brought them couldn't guess the other. We were doing one wine at a time, so even after a reveal, no more people guessed Pinot on the second. (Huge contrast between a wonderfully showing Dujac and a good, but rustic Trousseau-like Maranges.)
Hi Wes,

No whole cluster back in the day. Bob did start experimenting with Whole Cluster in the mid 80's to combat some of the tannins but he never made it a significant % of the program. All the Pinot went through what I call today the grape grinder. It was one of the first "destemmers" ever made. Super tight stainless steel rollers that must have totally macerated the stems, seeds, etc. I believe the volcanic soils, dry farming, bay trees, fermentation temps, and grape grinder which extracted A LOT of seed/stem tannin all contributed to the tannin and unique profile of those older vintages. But, the structure is also what partly drove the slow aging curve of those wines. With all that said, the 1969 Hanzell Pinot is probably my favorite PN ever tasted new or old. And that's with tasting a lot of wines and no bias:)
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#17 Post by brigcampbell » July 17th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Jason Jardine wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if those Hanzels saw 100% stem inclusion. That could explain the tannic structure and various spice and odd green (like dill) notes that can throw you off from thinking it's PN. I had a similarly mature CA PN last week that had some people commenting it didn't seem like PN (it did to me) because of all its glorious spices and structure.

Two of our brown bag wines yesterday turned out to be Burgs with 100% stem inclusion. Only one out of about 14 people called them as Pinot. The people who brought them couldn't guess the other. We were doing one wine at a time, so even after a reveal, no more people guessed Pinot on the second. (Huge contrast between a wonderfully showing Dujac and a good, but rustic Trousseau-like Maranges.)
Hi Wes,

No whole cluster back in the day. Bob did start experimenting with Whole Cluster in the mid 80's to combat some of the tannins but he never made it a significant % of the program. All the Pinot went through what I call today the grape grinder. It was one of the first "destemmers" ever made. Super tight stainless steel rollers that must have totally macerated the stems, seeds, etc. I believe the volcanic soils, dry farming, bay trees, fermentation temps, and grape grinder which extracted A LOT of seed/stem tannin all contributed to the tannin and unique profile of those older vintages. But, the structure is also what partly drove the slow aging curve of those wines. With all that said, the 1969 Hanzell Pinot is probably my favorite PN ever tasted new or old. And that's with tasting a lot of wines and no bias:)
Hey, Jason.

Have you tasted the 79/80? Your thoughts as to so many people being stumped? Do other older vintages taste similar?

And I'm not knocking it, nice wine, just didn't scream "california pinot" and with some age, I have very limited experience.

Also, what was behind the switch from Sirugue?

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#18 Post by larry schaffer » July 17th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:27 pm
That K Vintners wine was a really outlying one. It was around 14% alcohol, but it smelled and especially tasted like it was 12% or less. Severely lacking in ripeness and body, very gamy and lean.

I think it was mostly grenache, and I know it can be more difficult (though not impossible, depending on the site) to get grenache ripe at lower alcohol levels.

I've never had those Charles Smith wines, and I had always rather assumed they were big modern ripe wines. I don't know if this was an outlier, or if my assumptions about Charles Smith wines were incorrect. Also weird that this wine got high critic scores, which you might not expect for a severely underripe wine.

Hell, maybe we just got a weird bottle or something. Though it didn't have any indication of a flaw that any of us could tell.
Were all the bottles PnP?

I would be curious to see if this wine picked up structure or how it changed on Day 2 - or later in the evening if you had a chance to compare and contrast.

I find oftentimes that my grenaches can change radically given air time . . .

Cheers
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#19 Post by larry schaffer » July 17th, 2019, 4:02 pm

Jason Jardine wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 2:44 pm
larry schaffer wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:07 pm
Really interesting notes - and I agree that blind tasting can be quite humbling . . .

Anyone know if Hanzell was using American Oak back in the day? Or untoasted barrels? That could explain that flavor profile.

And I agree with tasting older wines and trying to figure out things - for instance, I oftentimes find older zins to be more claret like than anything else.

Cheers.
Hi Larry,

Hanzell exclusivly used Sirugue from 1956-2010. So all French oak.
Bam! Thanks for the info, my friend.

Cheers
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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#20 Post by John Glas » July 17th, 2019, 4:07 pm

NV Vilmart & Cie Champagne Premier Cru Grand Cellier Brut - France, Champagne, Champagne Premier Cru (7/11/2019)
Looks like a new disgorgement for me, as first time I have seen 2017. Disgorged June 2017, 70% Chard, 30% PN. Served blind. Flinty with a berry note on initial taste, with the two mixing in a cool contrast. I found the contrast and intensity most apparent when it was served cooler. Saline, pear and tart apple as the wine warms, and it also picked up some dosage presence that was not noticed when cooler. The acidity has the sweeter lime quality when the wine had lost most of its chill. In sum, this wine fooled me blind, seeming to be leaner and more chiseled so if you want that kind of affect, serve cooler in temp, or serve warmer if you want the fleshier, bit more unctuous quality to show.
Vilmart at room temp works for me! champagne.gif

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#21 Post by John Glas » July 17th, 2019, 4:08 pm

[quoteTodd F r e n c h wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:56 pm
Where'd you get those old Hanzells?? What a treat
Sean bought them from my buddy that sold me the DRC for $20 each. I think he paid $25 a piece the Hanzell? Really neat stuff, I'll get my notes up. The only thing tougher than tasting blind is tasting blind with some age. I had 3 guesses and wasn't even close. I thought they were old Ridge Monte Bello because of the oak/dill. Buzzz!!!!

From that cellar, there's a few more treats lurking as Seiber, Sean, and I purchased about 3-4 cases of fun stuff.

So far, only one bad bottle, a late 1990's Mt. Eden Chardonnay that showed obvious signs of stress but purchased anyway on a prayer.

We are all regretting not buying more but who knew...][/quote]
Brig what is the ruling on the avatar?

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#22 Post by Richard Albert » July 17th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Not clear on whether Fu's 1974 Hanzell was part of this tasting or not, no tasting notes.
Was it like the other Hanzell PNs, or ?
I am sitting on a perfect one also from the Davis Cellar as is Dr Glenn, curious regarding traits and longevity.
ITB

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#23 Post by Chris Seiber » July 17th, 2019, 8:15 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 4:01 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:27 pm
That K Vintners wine was a really outlying one. It was around 14% alcohol, but it smelled and especially tasted like it was 12% or less. Severely lacking in ripeness and body, very gamy and lean.

I think it was mostly grenache, and I know it can be more difficult (though not impossible, depending on the site) to get grenache ripe at lower alcohol levels.

I've never had those Charles Smith wines, and I had always rather assumed they were big modern ripe wines. I don't know if this was an outlier, or if my assumptions about Charles Smith wines were incorrect. Also weird that this wine got high critic scores, which you might not expect for a severely underripe wine.

Hell, maybe we just got a weird bottle or something. Though it didn't have any indication of a flaw that any of us could tell.
Were all the bottles PnP?

I would be curious to see if this wine picked up structure or how it changed on Day 2 - or later in the evening if you had a chance to compare and contrast.

I find oftentimes that my grenaches can change radically given air time . . .

Cheers
It's possible. Sean Kennedy could answer the question better, but I think he at least opened it early afternoon to check on it, not sure if he double decanted or anything.

I think it was a little better at the end of the dinner than it was when first poured, but still not good.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#24 Post by brigcampbell » July 17th, 2019, 8:21 pm

John Glas wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Brig what is the ruling on the avatar?
That, my friend, you will have to Google.

Personally, it's in the cup.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#25 Post by Jason Jardine » July 18th, 2019, 9:55 am

brigcampbell wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:27 pm
Jason Jardine wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 2:58 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if those Hanzels saw 100% stem inclusion. That could explain the tannic structure and various spice and odd green (like dill) notes that can throw you off from thinking it's PN. I had a similarly mature CA PN last week that had some people commenting it didn't seem like PN (it did to me) because of all its glorious spices and structure.

Two of our brown bag wines yesterday turned out to be Burgs with 100% stem inclusion. Only one out of about 14 people called them as Pinot. The people who brought them couldn't guess the other. We were doing one wine at a time, so even after a reveal, no more people guessed Pinot on the second. (Huge contrast between a wonderfully showing Dujac and a good, but rustic Trousseau-like Maranges.)
Hi Wes,

No whole cluster back in the day. Bob did start experimenting with Whole Cluster in the mid 80's to combat some of the tannins but he never made it a significant % of the program. All the Pinot went through what I call today the grape grinder. It was one of the first "destemmers" ever made. Super tight stainless steel rollers that must have totally macerated the stems, seeds, etc. I believe the volcanic soils, dry farming, bay trees, fermentation temps, and grape grinder which extracted A LOT of seed/stem tannin all contributed to the tannin and unique profile of those older vintages. But, the structure is also what partly drove the slow aging curve of those wines. With all that said, the 1969 Hanzell Pinot is probably my favorite PN ever tasted new or old. And that's with tasting a lot of wines and no bias:)
Hey, Jason.

Have you tasted the 79/80? Your thoughts as to so many people being stumped? Do other older vintages taste similar?

And I'm not knocking it, nice wine, just didn't scream "california pinot" and with some age, I have very limited experience.

Also, what was behind the switch from Sirugue?

I don't have any personal notes on '79/'80. Unfortunately, Hanzell has a very small library of back vintages so I haven't tasted many vintages. Most of the pre '90's wines have been shared with me by our collectors from their cellars. But, in general, a lot of the pre '90's have reminded me more of older Barolo than CA Pinot. Hanzell wines actually get darker with age which is oddly unique too. The structure is more reminiscent of Italy than CA also.

In 2010, Hanzell asked Sirugue to test our barrel lot staves for TCA prior to shipping from France. They refused to do the additional tested so we had to break from an incredibly long relationship and tradition. We now use 5 different cooperages who all follow our TCA testing guidelines. DAMY being my favorite all around cooper and now Taransaud for our Cab program.
Hanzell Farm & Vineyards

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#26 Post by John Glas » July 18th, 2019, 3:23 pm

John Glas wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:08 pm

Brig what is the ruling on the avatar?
That, my friend, you will have to Google.

Personally, it's in the cup.
I would count it!

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#27 Post by Sean Kennedy » July 21st, 2019, 9:37 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:15 pm
larry schaffer wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 4:01 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:27 pm
That K Vintners wine was a really outlying one. It was around 14% alcohol, but it smelled and especially tasted like it was 12% or less. Severely lacking in ripeness and body, very gamy and lean.

I think it was mostly grenache, and I know it can be more difficult (though not impossible, depending on the site) to get grenache ripe at lower alcohol levels.

I've never had those Charles Smith wines, and I had always rather assumed they were big modern ripe wines. I don't know if this was an outlier, or if my assumptions about Charles Smith wines were incorrect. Also weird that this wine got high critic scores, which you might not expect for a severely underripe wine.

Hell, maybe we just got a weird bottle or something. Though it didn't have any indication of a flaw that any of us could tell.
Were all the bottles PnP?

I would be curious to see if this wine picked up structure or how it changed on Day 2 - or later in the evening if you had a chance to compare and contrast.

I find oftentimes that my grenaches can change radically given air time . . .

Cheers
It's possible. Sean Kennedy could answer the question better, but I think he at least opened it early afternoon to check on it, not sure if he double decanted or anything.

I think it was a little better at the end of the dinner than it was when first poured, but still not good.
All the still wines were opened at 3:00 and dinner started at 6:00. And Larry nailed it. I had a bottle of K Vintners a week earlier and on the second day it was showing better, for sure. Didn't seem as lean. Maybe I'll sneak it in blind again with more air time.

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Re: 6 TNs from last night: OLD Hanzell Pinot Noir, Vilmart and a few others

#28 Post by Mark Thompson » July 21st, 2019, 9:51 am

I picked up a ‘76 Hanzell Pinot in a mixed lot from this weekend’s HDH auction. Looking forward to trying it after reading these notes.

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