Is Brut champagne dying out?

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Troy Stark
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#51 Post by Troy Stark » July 12th, 2019, 6:26 am

Might be the carbonation + sugar + alcohol combination causing the headache? I'm pretty sure the CO2 acts in some fashion to increase the effect of alcohol on the brain.
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Brian G r a f s t r o m
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#52 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 12th, 2019, 10:04 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 4:35 am
If he can handle Riesling then it's not sulfur.

Brian is the first person I have ever heard of (in 25+ years of serious wine drinking) cite Brut Champagne as a headache problem, except annually the morning of January 1!
[rofl.gif]
Seriously though, I am a bit surprised to hear that. I have, anecdotally, heard from at least a few people that Champagne gives them instant headache. At least one of them additionally commented that they did not experience a headache while we were sharing a low dosage bottle.
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D@vid Bu3ker
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#53 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 12th, 2019, 10:05 am

I am seriously willing to bet it's coincidence, not a physical reaction. And now that you have it in your head...
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#54 Post by Doug Schulman » July 12th, 2019, 10:09 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 4:35 am
Brian is the first person I have ever heard of (in 25+ years of serious wine drinking) cite Brut Champagne as a headache problem, except annually the morning of January 1!
Same here (except the 25 years part).
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#55 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 12th, 2019, 10:13 am

That's a possibility, David, but that would be an odd, unfortunate and undesirable thing for me to Psyche myself into. I'd really rather not have this problem.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#56 Post by Doug Schulman » July 12th, 2019, 10:17 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:04 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 4:35 am
If he can handle Riesling then it's not sulfur.

Brian is the first person I have ever heard of (in 25+ years of serious wine drinking) cite Brut Champagne as a headache problem, except annually the morning of January 1!
[rofl.gif]
Seriously though, I am a bit surprised to hear that. I have, anecdotally, heard from at least a few people that Champagne gives them instant headache. At least one of them additionally commented that they did not experience a headache while we were sharing a low dosage bottle.
I just can't imagine what would be causing that. It certainly isn't the tiny amount of sugar in a brut Champagne, and there's nothing else different about low dosage wines. I can't even think of a plausible explanation.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#57 Post by Blake Brown » July 12th, 2019, 10:37 am

Doug Schulman wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:17 am
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:04 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 4:35 am
If he can handle Riesling then it's not sulfur.

Brian is the first person I have ever heard of (in 25+ years of serious wine drinking) cite Brut Champagne as a headache problem, except annually the morning of January 1!
[rofl.gif]
Seriously though, I am a bit surprised to hear that. I have, anecdotally, heard from at least a few people that Champagne gives them instant headache. At least one of them additionally commented that they did not experience a headache while we were sharing a low dosage bottle.
I just can't imagine what would be causing that. It certainly isn't the tiny amount of sugar in a brut Champagne, and there's nothing else different about low dosage wines. I can't even think of a plausible explanation.
Placebo effect?
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#58 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » July 12th, 2019, 10:43 am

Doug Schulman wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:17 am
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:04 am

Seriously though, I am a bit surprised to hear that. I have, anecdotally, heard from at least a few people that Champagne gives them instant headache. At least one of them additionally commented that they did not experience a headache while we were sharing a low dosage bottle.
I just can't imagine what would be causing that. It certainly isn't the tiny amount of sugar in a brut Champagne, and there's nothing else different about low dosage wines. I can't even think of a plausible explanation.
Half a bottle of Champagne with a dosage of 8g/l has about a total of 1/10th of an ounce of sugar. Not sure how someone will not have a reaction to 1/20th of an ounce of sugar but will have an instant headache from 1/10th of an ounce unless it is as Blake suggested.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#59 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 12th, 2019, 11:01 am

That's my take.

Perhaps a childhood scare from someone named Brutus.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#60 Post by Jay Miller » July 12th, 2019, 11:40 am

Could sugar act similarly to bubbles in speeding alcohol intake?

I've never read anything like that but it seems like the only mechanism that could explain it.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#61 Post by Mike Grammer » July 12th, 2019, 11:50 am

Blake Brown wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:37 am
Doug Schulman wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:17 am
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 10:04 am

[rofl.gif]
Seriously though, I am a bit surprised to hear that. I have, anecdotally, heard from at least a few people that Champagne gives them instant headache. At least one of them additionally commented that they did not experience a headache while we were sharing a low dosage bottle.
I just can't imagine what would be causing that. It certainly isn't the tiny amount of sugar in a brut Champagne, and there's nothing else different about low dosage wines. I can't even think of a plausible explanation.
Placebo effect?
Likelier paired with a bad round of golf [grin.gif]

Seriously....sorry that it has that effect on you, Brian.

For me, I draw a little bit of an analogy between 0 dosage and 100% cocoa chocolate. I can appreciate quality but can't bring myself to love it, for the most part. 85% or so in chocolate is my "sweet spot" and correlate that to about 4-5% in Champagne and I'm usually there.

Nevertheless, I submit myself to FMIII for further "testing" :)

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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#62 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 12th, 2019, 1:27 pm

Anything paired with a round of my golf has been paired with a bad round of golf. [pwn.gif]
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#63 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 12th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 6:19 pm
Low dosage Champagne is *the* reason I'm currently interested in Champagne. I've found many higher dosage Champagnes are too sweet for my preferences, and also give me an immediate headache. Low dosage examples, however, have a way of disappearing *real quick*, and sans-headache, ta boot.
what Brut Champagnes are you drinking that makes you take this line of thought? I mean, I may not enjoy even something like Veuve yellow label, but I'd be utterly miffed if you said that that was too sweet (much less something like Bereche or even Henri Billiot (which is almost near extra-dry levels)). I say all of this as someone who drinks a fair amount of lower dosage champagne

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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#64 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 12th, 2019, 6:56 pm

Keith,
I really haven't paid much attention to which ones, as I would drink them extremely rarely (usually on somebody else's dime because I wasn't buying them). Bottom line is, I frequently get instant headache when drinking Champagne --- not always, but more often than not --- but it's never happened with a low dosage example. There certainly could be other factors at play, but I do find it curious that I've not experienced the insta-headache with any low dosage or no dosage examples.

... now just watch --- next time I have a low dose or no dose bottle I'll get an immediate headache! [pwn.gif]

Last weekend, had a Jose Michel Pere Houdart and a Henri Goutorbe Rose. I'm pretty sure the Goutorbe is fairly low-dosage, and the Michel struck me as being "normal" or on the higher end. Both were enjoyable, but I did get the quick headache with the Michel (and it was a bit of a struggle to drink multiple pours, despite me enjoying it quite a bit). The Goutorbe gave no headache, and disappeared all too quickly.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#65 Post by David Glasser » July 12th, 2019, 9:46 pm

So maybe not dying out but, relatively speaking, drying out.

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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#66 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 12th, 2019, 9:59 pm

David Glasser wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 9:46 pm
So maybe not dying out but, relatively speaking, drying out.
That is the thread title I keep seeing.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#67 Post by Hao Lu » July 13th, 2019, 7:57 am

I like the first touch of higher dosage champagne, but not as much the finish.

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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#68 Post by Brad Baker » July 13th, 2019, 8:05 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 6:56 pm
Keith,
I really haven't paid much attention to which ones, as I would drink them extremely rarely (usually on somebody else's dime because I wasn't buying them). Bottom line is, I frequently get instant headache when drinking Champagne --- not always, but more often than not --- but it's never happened with a low dosage example. There certainly could be other factors at play, but I do find it curious that I've not experienced the insta-headache with any low dosage or no dosage examples.

... now just watch --- next time I have a low dose or no dose bottle I'll get an immediate headache! [pwn.gif]

Last weekend, had a Jose Michel Pere Houdart and a Henri Goutorbe Rose. I'm pretty sure the Goutorbe is fairly low-dosage, and the Michel struck me as being "normal" or on the higher end. Both were enjoyable, but I did get the quick headache with the Michel (and it was a bit of a struggle to drink multiple pours, despite me enjoying it quite a bit). The Goutorbe gave no headache, and disappeared all too quickly.
Brian,

Actually the Jose Michel Pere Houdart is normally around 4 g/L and the Goutorbe Rose around 9-10 g/L. There is a difference in the dosage origins as the Pere Houdart uses traditional cane sugar and the Goutorbe uses MCR.

I would bet that it isn't the sweetness in Champagne that is giving you a headache, but something else. Maybe it is the origin of the sweetener in the dosage and at a certain threshold, it gets to you? Most dosage in Champagne (especially from larger producers) is based on traditional cane sugar, but there are lots of different ways to make it.

On a tangential note, I almost always got a headache when drinking Gruet's wines (when they were pure New Mexico). Never figured out why, but thought it must have had something to do with the terroir as there was nothing in the production process that stood out to me as different. I should probably try a bottle now that it comes from all over the US and not just New Mexico.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#69 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 13th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Wow .... thanks, Brad! If exceptions continue to add up then I'll have to go back to the drawing board about the causes behind my situation.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#70 Post by Blake Brown » July 13th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

If I can get accurate dosage info on enough producers, I'm putting together a blind tasting with an emphasis on sugar detection/ effects. Should be interesting especially if it includes some folks who claim to be very sensitive to "high dosage" and there are a few that come to mind locally.
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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#71 Post by Mike Maguire » July 13th, 2019, 5:31 pm

As for me I have been a longtime Vilmart fan, long before they became a WB darling,I don’t perceive overt sweetness across their whole portfolio of wines.

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Re: Is Brut champagne dying out?

#72 Post by Nick Christie » July 17th, 2019, 1:10 pm

Yes, glad to see some good observations in this thread. A good one to have started, Blake. Your champagne threads are always gold-star worth.

I am always for mouthful, balance, and richness of flavors (and shudder at losing them in spirit of 'dryness' particularly in Germany), so these dryness/technique debates and trends are always interesting for me to keep an eye on... Glad to see the Cristal '08/09 dosages listed, too.

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