Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

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Ashley K.
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Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#1 Post by Ashley K. » July 8th, 2019, 4:54 am

Hi everyone,

I am part of a team of college students with a solution to preventing wine fraud. We attend WashU in St. Louis and are part of a study abroad entrepreneurship program to create a venture.
We decided to begin a venture for wine fraud prevention using AI technologies.

This is part of our market research so we can better address the needs of our consumer.

Please fill out this SHORT survey that takes only a minute to help us with our venture.
[https://forms.gle/rUpdvhHNAd7fjEYY7]
Thank you in advance!
Last edited by Ashley K. on July 9th, 2019, 1:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Jason T
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#2 Post by Jason T » July 8th, 2019, 5:02 am

Hi Ashley - I clicked on the link but it says I need permission....
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#3 Post by Ashley K. » July 8th, 2019, 5:05 am

It should be accessible now. Sorry!
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Markus S
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#4 Post by Markus S » July 8th, 2019, 5:11 am

Is this spam? Very vague with your information...
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Jim Brennan
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#5 Post by Jim Brennan » July 8th, 2019, 5:16 am

Per Markus' comment, it would be helpful to provide a little info about your project, what institution you're at or working on behalf of, etc.

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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#6 Post by Ashley K. » July 8th, 2019, 5:16 am

Hi Markus, this is not spam. We are a group of college students working on creating a venture that has uses AI technologies to prevent wine collectors from experiencing wine fraud. Any and all feedback is appreciated as we are trying to do market research.
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Jim Brennan
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#7 Post by Jim Brennan » July 8th, 2019, 5:47 am

Thanks for the updated background Ashley.

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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#8 Post by Doug Schulman » July 9th, 2019, 9:58 am

What would be the benefit of using this service instead of hiring an authenticator? Lower cost? It seems like the eyes of a highly trained human would be more effective, or at the very least have more perceived value to the customer.
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#9 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 9th, 2019, 10:31 am

When answering the pricing questions, are we to assume the services provided get the answer right w/r/t authenticity? It's hard to know how to answer those questions without more information.
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#10 Post by Ashley K. » July 9th, 2019, 11:42 am

This solution would be lower cost, but we can only test to see if there any signs that it is fake on the outside such as label discoloration, vintage inconsistencies, and so on.
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#11 Post by John Morris » July 9th, 2019, 12:17 pm

In addition to external signs, you might factor in is radioactive isotopes (if I'm recalling the physics correctly). All wines produced from 1945 on have at least minute amounts of radioactivity from Hiroshima and Nagasaki and later tests. That's one of the ways it was possible to confirm that Hardy Rodenstock's supposedly pre-1900 wines were fakes. I'm not sure whether you can test for that without opening the bottle, but I would think so.
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#12 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » July 9th, 2019, 12:52 pm

Ashley, a simpler version of my questions re: pricing is, How well does your product/service work?
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#13 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » July 9th, 2019, 1:20 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:17 pm
In addition to external signs, you might factor in is radioactive isotopes (if I'm recalling the physics correctly). All wines produced from 1945 on have at least minute amounts of radioactivity from Hiroshima and Nagasaki and later tests. That's one of the ways it was possible to confirm that Hardy Rodenstock's supposedly pre-1900 wines were fakes. I'm not sure whether you can test for that without opening the bottle, but I would think so.
Not only the wine, but the glass and cork would also have fission products (I think).
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#14 Post by John Morris » July 9th, 2019, 2:39 pm

Yes, that's what I was assuming.
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#15 Post by William Gladstone » July 9th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Ashley
quick thought, my sense is you are doing an academic approach and I think that will miss some very important factors, that are more organic.
Such, there are many millions of dollars of fraudulent Bordeaux and Burgundy in the market right now.
Those bottles are not owned by fraudsters, rather they are owned by collectors, distributors and commercial accounts such a 5 star hotels who do not want to simply eat such a huge loss.
All of these entities are waiting for an opportunity to unload the huge collection of fraudulent bottles to some other unsuspecting party.
Your questions and approach do not seem to address that phenomena.
I wonder if you have read in detail the past 20 - 30 years major wine fraud cases and see what you can learn?
Rudy K. and the chap from Europe whose name escapes me for the moment - are copy cat schemes... seducing and selling to insiders , will you be there for those folks?

China is a huge market for fraud - you can purchase a bottle of Lafite at a fine restaurant for 3 prices, with the seal on, with the cork not removed and with the seal and cork removed, will you address all of the fraud in China?

How about the fraud within the wine producing industry? Fine Burgundy is made by including Gamay or other less expensive grapes in bottles that sell for $20 - $50/bt.

I do not know what your group is planning as you have provided no details, i just wonder if you are aware and going to cover all of these situations?

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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#16 Post by Jason T » July 10th, 2019, 1:37 am

William Gladstone wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 10:18 pm
Ashley
quick thought, my sense is you are doing an academic approach and I think that will miss some very important factors, that are more organic.
Such, there are many millions of dollars of fraudulent Bordeaux and Burgundy in the market right now.
Those bottles are not owned by fraudsters, rather they are owned by collectors, distributors and commercial accounts such a 5 star hotels who do not want to simply eat such a huge loss.
All of these entities are waiting for an opportunity to unload the huge collection of fraudulent bottles to some other unsuspecting party.
Your questions and approach do not seem to address that phenomena.
I wonder if you have read in detail the past 20 - 30 years major wine fraud cases and see what you can learn?
Rudy K. and the chap from Europe whose name escapes me for the moment - are copy cat schemes... seducing and selling to insiders , will you be there for those folks?
What is the difference between a fake bottle 'owned by a fraudster' vs 'owned by collectors, distributors and commercial accounts'? How would the proposed approach not address this phenomena?
William Gladstone wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 10:18 pm

China is a huge market for fraud - you can purchase a bottle of Lafite at a fine restaurant for 3 prices, with the seal on, with the cork not removed and with the seal and cork removed, will you address all of the fraud in China?
Not speaking for Ashley as it's her project, but it strikes me that 'addressing all of the fraud in China', especially the '3 prices' scenario you describe above, may be beyond the bounds of possibility within a single app....
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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#17 Post by David Glasser » July 10th, 2019, 7:01 am

I agree with Jason. An innocent victim who purchased a counterfeit bottle and then tries to pass it off as genuine after discovering they’ve been duped becomes just as guilty as the original perpetrator. And clearly "all the fraud in China" or anywhere else is beyond the scope of this project.

I am wondering about the scenario implied in the question about confirmation by sending the bottle for comprehensive testing. Is this an intact bottle or one that’s already been opened and partially or completely consumed? If intact, would the comprehensive testing involve opening the bottle or sampling the wine (e.g. Coravin)?

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Re: Wine Fraud Prevention Survey

#18 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » July 10th, 2019, 9:53 pm

Ashley - perhaps you weren't expecting the level of engagement from people on this board and were simply hoping for informed wine enthusiasts (and buyers/sellers) to help with your market research. But the questions above highlight a real concern: that this is a complex issue and that people are skeptical that some college students playing entrepreneurs think they can come along and solve it with a bit of tech. Or just sell a product that doesn't really work but puts people's minds at ease.

Maybe you really can contribute to this area, but your brief responses to people's questions aren't particularly convincing either way. You are more likely to get thoughtful responses from the people on this board if you are able to contextualize your questions and indicate that you have thought about this issue in some detail.
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