Paris or Lyon

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Andy J
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Paris or Lyon

#1 Post by Andy J » July 7th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Question for those who’ve been to both. I’ll be going back to Paris but am considering stopping in Lyon for a few days. Which is a better city for great wine lists in restaurants and great wine retail shops? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#2 Post by GregT » July 7th, 2019, 4:12 pm

Lyon is often considered the heart of French cooking, many chefs having learned at their mother's side. And it has wonderful old Roman ruins. Highly recommended - I had some friends there and visited a number of times.

But Paris is . . .

Paris.

Seriously.

No comparison.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#3 Post by patrick c albright » July 7th, 2019, 4:19 pm

Both cities can be great, but the best spots are off the beaten path.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#4 Post by Ramon C » July 7th, 2019, 4:48 pm

#nobrainer

PARIS.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#5 Post by Jim F » July 7th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Been to both, love them both, good to experience both. If you have been to Paris before, by all means spend a couple days in Lyon. Not so sure about wine shops in either place. But The Lyonnais love their Cotes du Rhone, so be prepared for that. And do go to the Roman ruins, take the vernicular up the hill, eat at the Bocuse restaurants, walk the rivers.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#6 Post by Mark Thompson » July 7th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Funny, we just booked a trip around Thanksgiving week where we will be spending a few nights in each plus Brussels. (Unfortunately?) we’ll have the 6 and almost 8 year olds which will likely put a damper on our food options—not to mention my desire to go nuts touring Burgundy.

Okay okay—so I’m actually really looking forward to having the boys with me, even if it limits my food and wine options. But maybe I can convince the boss to give me one free day in Burgundy!

Anyway, looking forward to drafting off of any good tips from this thread.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#7 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 7th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Mark Thompson wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Funny, we just booked a trip around Thanksgiving week where we will be spending a few nights in each plus Brussels. (Unfortunately?) we’ll have the 6 and almost 8 year olds which will likely put a damper on our food options—not to mention my desire to go nuts touring Burgundy.

Okay okay—so I’m actually really looking forward to having the boys with me, even if it limits my food and wine options. But maybe I can convince the boss to give me one free day in Burgundy!

Anyway, looking forward to drafting off of any good tips from this thread.
You’re arranging a spa day as a trade?

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#8 Post by Andy J » July 7th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Anyone been to Antic in Lyon? I’ve been to Legrand in Paris and while selection was good I’d love to find some back vintage gems as well as my favorite burgundy, Rhône and champagne producers for a fraction of the price of here in NYC.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#9 Post by Yao C » July 7th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Andy J wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:20 pm
Anyone been to Antic in Lyon? I’ve been to Legrand in Paris and while selection was good I’d love to find some back vintage gems as well as my favorite burgundy, Rhône and champagne producers for a fraction of the price of here in NYC.
I’ve been; selection is not bad but don’t expect it to be cheap

Also I thought Bocuse was overrated when I went in 2017 and that was before he passed away. Check out La Mere Brazier, which is where Bocuse and many other famous chefs learned their trade :)
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#10 Post by Alan Rath » July 7th, 2019, 6:07 pm

Yao C wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:25 pm
Also I thought Bocuse was overrated when I went in 2017 and that was before he passed away.
He's definitely gone downhill since then...
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#11 Post by Ramon C » July 7th, 2019, 6:11 pm

Yao C wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Also I thought Bocuse was overrated when I went in 2017 and that was before he passed away.
Unimpressive since way before then.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#12 Post by Mark Thompson » July 7th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:16 pm



You’re arranging a spa day as a trade?
[/quote]

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#13 Post by Jim F » July 7th, 2019, 7:16 pm

Good updated information on Bocuse. I was there in 2011 and prior, so it has been a while. And fwiw, the brasserie restaurants I was referring to were Le Sud, Le Nord, etc. I enjoyed them.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#14 Post by Greg Malcolm » July 7th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Yao C wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:25 pm
Andy J wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:20 pm
Anyone been to Antic in Lyon? I’ve been to Legrand in Paris and while selection was good I’d love to find some back vintage gems as well as my favorite burgundy, Rhône and champagne producers for a fraction of the price of here in NYC.
I’ve been; selection is not bad but don’t expect it to be cheap
Agreed. The cellar is particularly fun to visit.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#15 Post by Andy Steinman » July 7th, 2019, 8:58 pm

Just returned from a trip including both. I have been to Paris many times but this was a first time in Lyon.

Paris is obviously a "world city" with the best of everything available, at a price and always something new.

That said, I was very impressed with Lyon! Plenty to see. Much less intense vibe. Great food, both at the high end and more modest Bouchons. Among the best meals ever at La Sommeliere. Burgundy Lounge has great food and a cheap wine list.

Antic was a very enjoyable shopping visit and I left with a few well priced rarities.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#16 Post by Rich Salsano » July 8th, 2019, 3:22 am

Andy Steinman wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 8:58 pm
Just returned from a trip including both. I have been to Paris many times but this was a first time in Lyon.

Paris is obviously a "world city" with the best of everything available, at a price and always something new.

That said, I was very impressed with Lyon! Plenty to see. Much less intense vibe. Great food, both at the high end and more modest Bouchons. Among the best meals ever at La Sommeliere. Burgundy Lounge has great food and a cheap wine list.

Antic was a very enjoyable shopping visit and I left with a few well priced rarities.
We loved Lyon when we went a few years ago. And Burgundy Lounge was great too. Lyon sort of felt like a smaller, more intimate, less international version of Paris. Great food, very walkable city. Plenty to do.

But Paris is all that and then more. Like others have said, if you have been to Paris before, then give Lyon a whirl.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#17 Post by Matt Fleming » July 8th, 2019, 3:37 am

Andy J wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 4:03 pm
Question for those who’ve been to both. I’ll be going back to Paris but am considering stopping in Lyon for a few days. Which is a better city for great wine lists in restaurants and great wine retail shops? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Since you mention a side trip, I'll offer advice that I always offer: no matter which you prefer, unless you have 5 days (or so) don't split your time. The time used to get to the second location, check in, etc, while not entirely wasted, is to me time best spent over a very long lunch.

As to the question at hand, I'd pick Paris again and again. One reason: the cooking in many of Lyon's best regional restaurants is quite repetitive.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#18 Post by Matt Fleming » July 8th, 2019, 3:40 am

patrick c albright wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 4:19 pm
Both cities can be great, but the best spots are off the beaten path.
We'd all like this to be true, but really, it isn't. And even if you could string together a great list of off-the-beaten-path places, you'd spend an entire season just getting from one to the other. While that's a great trip in itself, even those who attempt it never succeed.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#19 Post by Andy J » July 8th, 2019, 5:46 am

Matt Fleming wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:37 am
Andy J wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 4:03 pm
Question for those who’ve been to both. I’ll be going back to Paris but am considering stopping in Lyon for a few days. Which is a better city for great wine lists in restaurants and great wine retail shops? Any recommendations would be appreci
Since you mention a side trip, I'll offer advice that I always offer: no matter which you prefer, unless you have 5 days (or so) don't split your time. The time used to get to the second location, check in, etc, while not entirely wasted, is to me time best spent over a very long lunch.

As to the question at hand, I'd pick Paris again and again. One reason: the cooking in many of Lyon's best regional restaurants is quite repetitive.
Good thought. Ive got 3.5 days then down to Avignon for two days. It seems Most everyone agrees with Paris. As a previous poster mentioned. It does come with the Parisian cost. Though Lyon is one of the largest cities in France I figured the retail price of burgundy and Rhône would be a bit more modest with a great selection due to proximity.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#20 Post by G. Shields » July 8th, 2019, 9:30 am

In my opinion, retail is much better in Lyon vs Paris, especially for Rhône and Beaujolais, Burgundy not so much. Cavistes in Paris do have an extra ‘bobo Parisien’ mark-up!
There are some really good cavistes in Lyon: Antic wine mentioned is a fun visit as you can dig away in the cellar, there are older vintages, mags of Foillard etc... nearby on the Presque-Ile of Lyon is Malleval, another very good high-end store, good deep selections in Rhone, Burgundy. I also recommend ‘Euvrard Selections’ which is easy to find on the Saône riverside just north of the centre: again good burgundy and Rhône offerings. If you choose Lyon, you also have the option of doing a day trip to either Cote Rôtie or Beaujolais if you fancy hiring a car! [drinkers.gif]
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#21 Post by Markus S » July 8th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Andy J wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 5:46 am
...As a previous poster mentioned. It does come with the Parisian cost.
What is the multiplier? 3x? 2x?
With all the crowds to deal with at every tourist venue nowadays, is it really worth the hassle? I imagine November would be better though.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#22 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 8th, 2019, 12:45 pm

The best food in Europe is in Northern Spain at San Sebastián which also boasts a restaurant with a magnificent wine list yet to been picked apart by Berserkers and other wine lovers (Rekondo). Some serious three star Michelins at a fraction of the price of their French counterparts, and some really incredible lesser restaurants. Nice beach, easy drive to Bilbao to the Gehry Guggenheim and another easy ride to the restaurant that has been called by some as the best in the world. Asador Etxbarri is definitely worth a trip on its own.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#23 Post by Blair Ridley » July 8th, 2019, 1:49 pm

As someone who’s been to both in the past week, they are both expensive and rare wines at good prices are tough to find. I was just in Antic in Lyon on Wednesday and their prices are high for most bottlings and just about all of the older vintages. This being said, you may be able to snipe some cool things at $20-30/bottle cheaper than the US (Like Jamet Cote Rotie, for example). I didn’t find it worthwhile to buy to bring home at retail - only at wineries in Burgundy where i am spending most of my time.

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#24 Post by GregT » July 8th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Matt Fleming wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:37 am
Andy J wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 4:03 pm
Question for those who’ve been to both. I’ll be going back to Paris but am considering stopping in Lyon for a few days. Which is a better city for great wine lists in restaurants and great wine retail shops? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Since you mention a side trip, I'll offer advice that I always offer: no matter which you prefer, unless you have 5 days (or so) don't split your time. The time used to get to the second location, check in, etc, while not entirely wasted, is to me time best spent over a very long lunch.

As to the question at hand, I'd pick Paris again and again. One reason: the cooking in many of Lyon's best regional restaurants is quite repetitive.
If you've never been to either, you can easily spend five days in either one of them. But the trip is only like two hours on the train - that's not all bad since you can do some reading, etc.

I can't eat three meals a day, so if I have lunch, that's going to eliminate dinner, and I'd rather do a nice dinner with some wine. Good point about the cooking in Lyon - it may be repetitive. But for me that's also part of the charm. In Paris you can get pretty much anything, but when I go, I really want French cooking, not something international that I could get back home.

But to each his own! [cheers.gif]
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#25 Post by Jonathan H » July 8th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Both cities have their charm, but for me, Paris wins. Food is top notch and I found that the pricing of wine at most restaurants I visited to be "fair". I had great dinners at Semilla, Septime, and Yam'tcha. With that said, Lyon is great too. Good food and a little less busy than Paris which was a nice change. In the end, you can't go wrong with either place.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#26 Post by m. ristev » July 8th, 2019, 3:49 pm

for me paris has been stagnant now on the food front for a couple years and it is increasingly more difficult to find good deals on wine in both shops and on lists. i would go with lyon as it has a great vibe being obviously much less touristy than paris. there are definitely lots of wine shops to explore and still a few deals to be had. that being said antic is the most overpriced shop in lyon in my opinion...
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#27 Post by Kevin Sidders » July 9th, 2019, 7:56 am

Rich Salsano wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 3:22 am
Andy Steinman wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 8:58 pm
Just returned from a trip including both. I have been to Paris many times but this was a first time in Lyon.

Paris is obviously a "world city" with the best of everything available, at a price and always something new.

That said, I was very impressed with Lyon! Plenty to see. Much less intense vibe. Great food, both at the high end and more modest Bouchons. Among the best meals ever at La Sommeliere. Burgundy Lounge has great food and a cheap wine list.

Antic was a very enjoyable shopping visit and I left with a few well priced rarities.
We loved Lyon when we went a few years ago. And Burgundy Lounge was great too. Lyon sort of felt like a smaller, more intimate, less international version of Paris. Great food, very walkable city. Plenty to do.

But Paris is all that and then more. Like others have said, if you have been to Paris before, then give Lyon a whirl.
This would be my vote. I've loved Lyon the few times I've been, and others have provided the same tips I would have regarding retailers there. Paris is indeed Paris, but it always will be. If you have the time and want to broaden your horizons a bit, Lyon would be a very rewarding visit. Plus the fast train ride makes the logistics quite easy...
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#28 Post by J. D'Antonio » July 9th, 2019, 7:48 pm

I had some wonderful meals in Lyon a couple weeks ago. Les Apothicaires, Le Supreme (2016 Gonon St Joseph, 75 Euro on the list!), and the lovely people at Le Bouchon des Filles were great. Enjoyed the food there way, way more than other bouchons in Lyon.

There's a lovely lady named Myriam running a small shop called Recoltant Manipulant at 1 Rue Hippolyte Flandrin that has interesting wines - Champagne, obviously, but other wines also. I stopped in a couple times. And if you like empanadas, there's a fantastic place around the corner called Toke. They can call them chaussons all they want, but they are empanadas. Super tasty, especially the chorizo, which was surprisingly spicy for France, but I obviously loved it.

Oh - and I had a nice lunch at L'Encart also.

The only disappointing meal I had (really bad, actually), was at Daniel et Denise. I was quite surprised at how bad it was. Underseasoned, cloying, and just all around poor quality. Perhaps that explains why the restaurant was only 1/3rd full on a Friday night at 8:30-9pm.

Oh, and the meal I had at Les Apothicaires was awesome. I would eat there again and again and again. I loved it. Le Supreme was super tasty also. I would go back just for the super tiny pistachio madeleines that were served warm as a mignardises and some of the best I've ever had. Did I mention the Gonon St Joe at 75 Euro?
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#29 Post by Ethan H » July 9th, 2019, 8:18 pm

Kevin Sidders wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:56 am
Plus the fast train ride makes the logistics quite easy...
... and could be quite fun for the 6 and almost-8 year olds since the TGV on this route reaches speeds of up to 200mph. French train tickets for kids are seriously discounted (also look into getting a Carte Advantage Famille for a 30% discount for the whole family if you can navigate the www.oui.sncf website in French, though this may require a French address and would definitely require a weekend night stayover).

I think your decision should perhaps also depend on how often you travel to France. If your wife and kids won't be back to France for another 5+ years, then perhaps it's better to stick to Paris which has an abundance of non-vinous/gastronomic pleasures, or consider a day trip to another city (e.g. Tours, in proximity to the castles of the Loire Valley, not to mention the wine regions of the Loire, is only 1:10 by TGV and is doable as a day trip).
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#30 Post by Mark Thompson » July 9th, 2019, 8:53 pm

Ethan H wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 8:18 pm
Kevin Sidders wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:56 am
Plus the fast train ride makes the logistics quite easy...
... and could be quite fun for the 6 and almost-8 year olds since the TGV on this route reaches speeds of up to 200mph. French train tickets for kids are seriously discounted (also look into getting a Carte Advantage Famille for a 30% discount for the whole family if you can navigate the www.oui.sncf website in French, though this may require a French address and would definitely require a weekend night stayover).

I think your decision should perhaps also depend on how often you travel to France. If your wife and kids won't be back to France for another 5+ years, then perhaps it's better to stick to Paris which has an abundance of non-vinous/gastronomic pleasures, or consider a day trip to another city (e.g. Tours, in proximity to the castles of the Loire Valley, not to mention the wine regions of the Loire, is only 1:10 by TGV and is doable as a day trip).
They’ve been on the 300 kph trains a couple of times over the last two years. I’m the one that gets excited about the scenery and the speed. They want to play Minecraft. [head-bang.gif]

Great suggestions though!

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Re: Paris or Lyon

#31 Post by patrick c albright » July 9th, 2019, 11:13 pm

I was on the train from Perrache to Gare de Lyon last week.

We were delayed ten minutes at Part Dieu and still arrived on time into Paris.
The TGV was at 300 km/hour for a nice portion of the journey.
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#32 Post by joz€f p1nxten » July 10th, 2019, 1:28 am

Mark Thompson wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Funny, we just booked a trip around Thanksgiving week where we will be spending a few nights in each plus Brussels. (Unfortunately?) we’ll have the 6 and almost 8 year olds which will likely put a damper on our food options—not to mention my desire to go nuts touring Burgundy.
For Brussels, don't hesitate to reach out me by pm - there are some good options, price list wise!
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#33 Post by Jeremy Holmes » July 10th, 2019, 1:36 am

Paris
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Re: Paris or Lyon

#34 Post by Claus Jeppesen » July 10th, 2019, 2:56 am

Jeremy Holmes wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 1:36 am
Paris
Agree
I love the Lyon Bouchons though
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