Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
R M Kriete
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 520
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 8:07 am
Location: Indialantic, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#51 Post by R M Kriete » June 26th, 2019, 4:47 pm

brigcampbell wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Histamines are the culprit.
[
Have a friend who after years of enjoying wine, was on the verge of quitting due to headaches and generally feeling poorly after drinking wine. She starting taking a Claritin 30 min before imbibing and now she can pound the vino like the rest of us with no ill effects.

Philip G
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 183
Joined: January 4th, 2019, 3:04 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#52 Post by Philip G » June 26th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:04 pm
Philip G wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 5:45 pm
Tom - this can be caused by a drop in blood sugar levels. The body's response to alcohol is to produce insulin, which can drop your blood sugar levels a few hours after drinking.

I don't drink during the day because of this effect and try to limit how much I drink in the evening like you.
So you drink at breakfast?
Ha, yes. Like Winston Churchill a glass of whiskey in bed before starting the day ;)

User avatar
Ian S
Posts: 294
Joined: January 29th, 2019, 11:51 am

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#53 Post by Ian S » June 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm

Frank Murray III wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:29 pm

My initial post was my pause button, stopping to think about this topic, and to share. Being older now, as opposed to when I started into this hobby 30 years ago, has become enlightening about how to drink and treat the hobby. Ultimately, I am just trying to convey that things have changed for me and the editing process for me is underway again.
Reevaluation is a good thing. It might catch on, and you'd be the trendsetter. There would be people skipping a few nights per week drinking!
S t 1 g 0 m a n

Alan Eden - Berserker [berserker.gif] and Master Pot Stirrer [stirthepothal.gif] forever!

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2409
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#54 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 26th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 3:56 pm
FWIW, I’m not sure that I can discern the difference between 13% and 14.5% but perhaps it does and effects me anyway.
It does, we just don't tell you.
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2409
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#55 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 26th, 2019, 8:12 pm

Frank, I feel you with the alcohol. I don't like the higher ABV wines either, but it's generally a style thing and not just the alcohol. I think there are plenty of good thought/excuses/explanations for the pain you feel after drinking. I, at 50 now, have been dealing with the same thing. I ain't stoppin' anytime soon though. I drink a ton of water, make sure I eat, pop a few Advil, etc, but sometimes nothing seems to work. My hangovers now are almost migraine-like.

I am with you in terms of Champagne too, and you know it! I bet it is about 50% of my consumption. I LOVE the stuff!
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2409
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#56 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 26th, 2019, 8:18 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:55 am

My concierge physician happens to be in our wine group. All of us are over 50, athletes, and all work too hard, push too hard. For himself, and us, he’s been doing a lot of research on this subject, and has outlined some pretty basic tenets to balance these things. His central point is that deep, quality sleep, is critical to longevity and an active older age. His recommendations are not ground-breaking, they are pretty intuitive really, but I bet most (like me) violate them most days:
You are so right with the sleep thing.

My resting heart rate is around 55-60 when I drink even a little too much. When I have none or a moderate amount, it is generally around 45-47.
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18999
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#57 Post by Alan Rath » June 26th, 2019, 11:47 pm

I too struggle to understand how the absolute alcohol volume isn’t the key factor, regardless of what wine (or spirit) it comes from. But I don’t doubt experience. I wonder if that has something to do with how we consume different types of drinks? I probably down a mixed drink faster than I would a glass of wine, partly because it’s volume is typically less, partly because it’s easier to drink in most cases. I think I also drink champagne more slowly than most still wine, maybe because of the carbonation? Maybe it’s easier to take bigger gulps of a more forward, more alcoholic wine, an smaller sips of a leaner wine?

Just throwing out some ideas that might explain some of the difference in experience. I know for sure that a cocktail will hit me faster than a glass of wine, for example. Almost certainly because it has more alcohol concentration, less total volume, and is usually pretty easy to drink - I’m typically not swirling, smelling, savoring a cocktail the way I would a nice wine.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

Wes Barton
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3629
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 3:54 am

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#58 Post by Wes Barton » June 27th, 2019, 12:42 am

The weird extreme experience I had was with some 190 proof spirits a friend brought. Being at <ahem> work, the best seeming choice to blend it with was Snapple. Being somewhat smart, we carefully measured 1/3 ounce shots to add to our 16 ounce Snapples, put the lids on and shook. After drinking about 3 ounces we were instantly drunk. Maybe Clark Smith would say we didn't give it time to form colloids around the EtOH molecules or something... It certainly hadn't blending in proportionally, so it was drawn right into our tissue and into our bloodstreams. Since the total amount of alcohol was so small and there was no further input, we were completely sober 10 or 15 minutes later. Not particularly enjoyable, so I used the rest of mine to spit fireballs.
ITB - Useless lackey

"I've acquired enough wine to seduce an elephant." - Jennifer Robin

User avatar
Otto Forsberg
Posts: 848
Joined: December 28th, 2017, 4:26 am
Location: Finland

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#59 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 27th, 2019, 1:25 am

The absorption rate of alcohol depends on the alcohol content, so more alcohol is absorbed in a certain duration of time from a wine at 15% compared to a wine at 12,5%. This absorption rate increases up to 20-25%-ish ABV, after which the absorption rate stays pretty much the same. In that aspect it makes sense how even an identical amount of alcohol in grams enjoyed in the form of beer, low-alcohol wine, high-alcohol wine and fortified wine can have different effects on a person.

However, what makes it interesting is that carbonation increases alcohol absorption rate. Alcohol from a 12,5% sparkling wine might be absorbed into the body at the same rate as a still high-alcohol wine.

And of course it should be remembered that drinking alcohol with food retards the absorption rate into the body, making the blood alcohol levels peak much lower, spreading it over a longer period of time.

User avatar
Jeff Vaughan
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1337
Joined: January 22nd, 2013, 9:42 am
Location: Kennett Square, PA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#60 Post by Jeff Vaughan » June 27th, 2019, 5:25 am

I like scotch, but I tend to only have one smallish pour, when I am not drinking anything else. I don't drink enough to really feel it.

When I drink Port, it is usually a very small pour, almost always after a longer night of eating and drinking, where I have already had many glasses of wine. It would be hard to single out the effect of the port versus the quantity of the rest of what I drank.

I notice the difference in wine from 12.5% to 15.5% when I am sharing a bottle of wine with my wife, with food, and I don't want to feel the alcohol.
CT: outplaying

User avatar
Neal.Mollen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 34018
Joined: January 30th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#61 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 27th, 2019, 5:31 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:55 am
- No more than 2 glasses per night
- Last glass 3 hours before bed
- Wine with food
- no coffee past noon
- no working out 2-3 hours before bed
- snack before bed recommended
- hot shower or bath before bed
- no iPhones or laptops in bed - something about the emitted light stimulates the brain
- read before bed
First, great thread Frank. These are topics all of us should be considering as we age.

Robert, most of your friend's recommendations are pretty routine, but did he tell you why he recommended a snack at bedtime? Or a shower before bed? Are these intended just as relaxation aids? Eating before bedtime sounds like a bad idea to me.

I am pretty good with those recommendations. We don't drink during the week, we share a bottle, meaning I have 3 glasses (she usually has 2) when we do drink, I try and mostly succeed in being done a couple of hours before bed, etc. Like you, I assume, it is just not possible to avoid checking the phone before sleep, clients being what they are. But I try very hard to turn the thing OFF at 10:00 and just read until I fall asleep.
I don't have to speak; she defends me

A drunkard's dream if I ever did see one

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21584
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#62 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 27th, 2019, 6:51 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 5:31 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:55 am
- No more than 2 glasses per night
- Last glass 3 hours before bed
- Wine with food
- no coffee past noon
- no working out 2-3 hours before bed
- snack before bed recommended
- hot shower or bath before bed
- no iPhones or laptops in bed - something about the emitted light stimulates the brain
- read before bed
First, great thread Frank. These are topics all of us should be considering as we age.

Robert, most of your friend's recommendations are pretty routine, but did he tell you why he recommended a snack at bedtime? Or a shower before bed? Are these intended just as relaxation aids? Eating before bedtime sounds like a bad idea to me.

I am pretty good with those recommendations. We don't drink during the week, we share a bottle, meaning I have 3 glasses (she usually has 2) when we do drink, I try and mostly succeed in being done a couple of hours before bed, etc. Like you, I assume, it is just not possible to avoid checking the phone before sleep, clients being what they are. But I try very hard to turn the thing OFF at 10:00 and just read until I fall asleep.
Sun Tzu’s Art of War is brilliant because of its simplicity. As is Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. The funny thing about us so-called intelligent people, we tend to forget the basics and often think little rules don’t apply to us. As I noted, many of the points are intuitive. I think having them all in front of you, looking at them holistically, not in pieces, is important. The hot shower or bath is to relax. I know I’m beat when I climb out of our hot tub. The light snack is to prevent me from my usual, 3-4 AM wake-up to eat. My machine devours calories. And I still wake up ravenous.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21584
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#63 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 27th, 2019, 6:57 am

I circled back with my physician, and I left out a few more things:

1. Try to stay on a routine for sleep time and wake-up (very hard for me)
2. Limit any fluids 2 hours before bed - you know, us aging men and prostates
3. Turn the AC down to 70 - studies show people sleep better when it is cold and you are bundled in a comforter

My biggest sleeping aide, incidentally, are ear plugs. I’m a very light sleeper, so that’s a biggy for me.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

Mike Maguire
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1208
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 4:35 pm
Location: University Place Wa.

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#64 Post by Mike Maguire » June 27th, 2019, 7:19 am

Everything in moderation has worked for me for 70+ years of life , food ,exercise, and alcohol.I have tried to leave a less complicated life since retirement, so far so good. [cheers.gif]

User avatar
Todd Tucker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: May 18th, 2010, 4:49 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#65 Post by Todd Tucker » June 27th, 2019, 7:24 am

R M Kriete wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 1:02 pm
Philip G wrote:
June 25th, 2019, 5:36 pm
I gotta say, I don't understand all this fuss and hoopla on this board over 1-2% ABV in wine.

The difference in alcohol content between 13.5% and 14.5% is 7.4% more alcohol. So taking 14.5% wine in 7.4% smaller sips or drinking a glass of wine over 32 minutes instead of 30 minutes will give the same alcohol effect on the body. This is in the noise.

I don't drink much hard alcohol but when I do I drink it in very small sips so the drink lasts about the same as a glass of wine would. It has a higher alcohol taste but has roughly the same effect on the body as a glass of wine over the same time.
There you go...using science to counter our "feelings" [wink.gif]

Well, not really.

While it may seem that using the above logic is an application of science; in this case it is not. This is more of an example of making an incorrect assumption about science and thinking you are using science. The problem with this logic is that it lacks a fundamental understanding of physiology and alcohol metabolism.

I apologize for being quick and I don't mean to be snarky here. I am running around at work, but I can come back later to hopefully better explain if anyone has a question. better yet try to find the old thread that explains it better.

A couple people above referred to a previous thread in the past with an explanation that I am sure was more eloquent than mine. I am a simple bone doctor and not a pharmacologist or physiologist.

The reason that logic does not equate to real life is that alcohol is metabolized by something called zero order kinetics. This means that we can only metabolize a fixed amount of alcohol per unit time. It is not a relative difference in this is 7.4% more alcohol. It is a case of there being x amount of residual alcohol in your blood that has not yet been metabolized if your liver is working close to it's threshold of ability. So over a few drinks the difference between 13% and 15% is actually pretty significant.

My first likely poor analogy: You liver is a sink. The water on the floor is your alcohol toxicity.

The drain in this sink that can only drain one gallon of water a minute. You are pouring in two ounces less than a gallon per minute. You can do that forever and not overflow. If you start pouring 4 extra ounces per minute into the sink it will overflow once it is filled, even though the incremental change is minimal as a relative percentage of the water you are pouring.

Another poor analogy that I can think of on the fly. For you cyclists out there: If you anaerobic threshold heart rate is 170 BPM and you need to go up to 180 beats for 5 minutes to make it up the hill and stay in the peloton. That's only 6% more heart rate, so no big deal right? While this example is not completely analogous to first order pharmacology mechanism of ETOH consumption, it as an example that direct comparison of two quantities even though they may seem small in relative difference, can be quite large when based on physiologic processes not just mathematic ratios.

I hope this makes sense.

User avatar
Marcu$ Stanley
Posts: 1113
Joined: November 1st, 2010, 3:31 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#66 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » June 27th, 2019, 5:48 pm

Great explanation from Todd, thanks! That description fits how I experience wines in the comfortable range for me, e.g. 12.5-13, I feel like I can drink a fair amount comfortably if I space it out over time.

All the people saying it's a matter of simple linear arithmetic -- come on. How much alcohol you take in is just addition, but the issue is how a human being metabolizes the stuff, which is a fantastically complex system full of nonlinearities. Your body tries to maintain homeostatis and is very sensitive to getting knocked off of it. It is a common observation that drug dose-response curves (note: curves) are not linear, e.g.
This drug, when given as dose x; has a magnitude of effect y. This magnitude of effect is directly proportional to the dose, such that doubling the dose doubles the effect. This is a linear dose-response relationship....There are only very few examples of this sort of relationship in medicine. In general, a linear increase in effect is only seen in situations where the effect is a risk of something happening, eg. the linear relationship between dose in cigarettes and the risk of cancer... In short, the normal dose-response curve is hyperbolic.
(https://derangedphysiology.com/main/cic ... nse-curves)

Someone above asked about cocktails. I very rarely drink hard liquor of any kind any more, when I do, I expect to get drunk, and am done after one or two.

User avatar
Bob Hoelting
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 126
Joined: January 25th, 2012, 4:18 pm
Location: Santa Ana

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#67 Post by Bob Hoelting » June 27th, 2019, 7:00 pm

As several here have eluded to, age plays a big part in it.

“It takes all night what to do what I used to do all night” is right

User avatar
NoahR
Posts: 2407
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 1:07 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#68 Post by NoahR » June 27th, 2019, 7:40 pm

Frank, I’ve been a migraineur for 30 years. Began in grade school. I took NSAIDs then with minimal effect, eventually started taking Imitrex back when it was only available as an injection. It’s awful and has plagued my life in many ways, but my chief triggers seem to remain sleep deprivation, anxiety, alcohol and stress. So basically my life.

In a way, I thank my migraines for their chilling effect on how much I drink. But I go through periods where I fight through migraines for 7-10 days in a row before things let up. Don’t wish that on anyone.
Noah Raizman
Washington, DC

User avatar
Anton D
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 30634
Joined: October 17th, 2013, 11:25 am
Location: Chico, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#69 Post by Anton D » June 27th, 2019, 10:16 pm

https://sites.tufts.edu/alcoholmetaboli ... he-answer/

Great review of how we metabolize alcohol.

Add a twist....

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1385/FSMP:1:1:027

A recap of Todd’s great post...

https://sites.google.com/site/pharmacol ... r-kinetics

So, with age, we may see changes in both the kinetics of absorption and in rates of metabolism.

Fascinating topic!

We should have a thread asking people if they’d want to drink wine that was free of alcohol yet produced the same taste experience!
Anton Dotson

What is man, when you come to think upon him, but a minutely set, ingenious machine for turning, with infinite artfulness, the fine red wine of Shiraz into urine?

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9961
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#70 Post by dcornutt » June 28th, 2019, 5:52 am

Snack before bed = tryptophan rich food which promote sleep like milk or banana. This is why people used to do warm milk.
If you do high protein here it won't help see below. Salmon, Chicken and Turkey are high in tryptophan but take a long time to digest.

Digestion takes several hours with proteins. 3 hours is pretty standard to get to a point where
your GI tract is actually resting after a meal with proteins. It can take as many as 8 to 10.

Hot baths promote a feeling of well being. Like meditation.

As Todd T says, alcohol is a zero order (fixed weight of alcohol per unit time) metabolic process. You can saturate this quickly leading to VERY long metabolic times.
This is why higher % alcohol wines can lead to markedly longer times to recover despite what you feel like are not excessive amounts.

Just my take.

D

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 5:31 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 4:55 am
- No more than 2 glasses per night
- Last glass 3 hours before bed
- Wine with food
- no coffee past noon
- no working out 2-3 hours before bed
- snack before bed recommended
- hot shower or bath before bed
- no iPhones or laptops in bed - something about the emitted light stimulates the brain
- read before bed
First, great thread Frank. These are topics all of us should be considering as we age.

Robert, most of your friend's recommendations are pretty routine, but did he tell you why he recommended a snack at bedtime? Or a shower before bed? Are these intended just as relaxation aids? Eating before bedtime sounds like a bad idea to me.

I am pretty good with those recommendations. We don't drink during the week, we share a bottle, meaning I have 3 glasses (she usually has 2) when we do drink, I try and mostly succeed in being done a couple of hours before bed, etc. Like you, I assume, it is just not possible to avoid checking the phone before sleep, clients being what they are. But I try very hard to turn the thing OFF at 10:00 and just read until I fall asleep.
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

Philip G
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 183
Joined: January 4th, 2019, 3:04 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#71 Post by Philip G » June 28th, 2019, 6:10 am

Todd Tucker wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 7:24 am

My first likely poor analogy: You liver is a sink. The water on the floor is your alcohol toxicity.
Todd, this is actually a pretty good analogy and what I was referring to in another post: it's the rate of consumption of alcohol and the total amount of consumed alcohol. You need to add a filter to your sink which filters the alcohol from the wine into the slow running alcohol sink.

I don't have an issue with higher alcohol wines. I'm still enjoying exploring different styles of wine and don't want to exclude a large portion of what's available. If it's a higher alcohol wine I drink less and drink it slower. Same effect. The other night I poured a second glass of Napa Cab after dinner while watching the debates. Part way through I noticed it was catching up with me so I stopped and poured it out rather than possibly feeling crappy the next day. A bit of a waste of wine but I'd rather follow what my body is telling me.

That's what I'm getting at when I say I wonder why people make such a fuss about the alcohol content. Wine has alcohol. If we know how to drink 13.5% alcohol moderately it's not a big change in drinking style to drink 14.5% or 15% alcohol moderately. Listen to your body.

User avatar
Chris Seiber
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8709
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 3:22 pm
Location: Newport Beach, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#72 Post by Chris Seiber » June 28th, 2019, 11:14 am

Todd Tucker wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 7:24 am

My first likely poor analogy: You liver is a sink. The water on the floor is your alcohol toxicity.

The drain in this sink that can only drain one gallon of water a minute. You are pouring in two ounces less than a gallon per minute. You can do that forever and not overflow. If you start pouring 4 extra ounces per minute into the sink it will overflow once it is filled, even though the incremental change is minimal as a relative percentage of the water you are pouring.
It's an interesting explanation. But it would need to be that the overflow point is right in between 13.5% and 15% or something, which would be quite a coincidence in the world of wine and the context of these stylistic discussions. Why isn't it that the alcohol effect only starts to really multiply between 15% and 17%, or between 11% and 13%?

Another possibility is that there is some placebo effect and confirmation bias involved. Someone knows he was just drinking Kutch one night, and knows he was drinking Harlan the next night, and knowing the alcohol content and styles of wines, he perceives that he was far more impaired or felt much worse on night 2.

Add to that the fact that, in all of these discussions we've had, every one of the people who are insistent about the difference in impairment being large between 13.5% wine and 15% wine are people who greatly prefer the former to the latter, and often have strong positive feelings about the people and wineries and regions that produce the former, and strong negative feelings about everything associated with the latter.

I've been reluctant to suggest this, since I don't wish to offend anyone with the observation, and I certainly don't mean to call anyone a liar, but isn't it at least possible that those strong feelings contribute to a perception that the former wines make you feel okay and the latter make you drunk and hung over? We all drink wines blind at times, knowing that our perceptions are going to be affected by knowing what's on the label. Couldn't that be the case here as well?

One last idea in this realm - do there tend to be different contexts in which someone with an AFWE palate is drinking high ABV wines? Is he usually having those only in larger events and tastings where he is drinking a lot more wine, whereas when he has half a bottle on a quiet Tuesday night, it's always or usually a low ABV wine? Could that tend to make someone think that they feel okay drinking Burg, but feel drunk and lousy drinking Zin?

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18999
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#73 Post by Alan Rath » June 28th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Excellent post, Chris. One more point: while elimination of alcohol may be a zero-order kinetic process (i.e., it's a fixed rate, regardless of how much is in your system), absorption is not. Numerous factors may affect the rate of absorption into your bloodstream, such as what you've eaten, how hydrated you are, carbonation, etc.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
GregT
Posts: 8043
Joined: April 15th, 2009, 3:12 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#74 Post by GregT » June 28th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Great info and lots of good points. So for my limited cranial capacity - the effect of alcohol on a particular individual may vary depending on the day and on the individual, and on the physical/emotional state of that individual at that particular time. Also, as a rule of thumb, particularly as the alcohol level of the wine increases, drinking more slowly is better than drinking more quickly.

Is that about right?

I've definitely noticed that certain things affect me differently today than they did 20 years ago. That won't make me drink Champagne but I no longer eat things like ice cream, which I once loved, and don't enjoy big slabs of beef, which I once could devour with ease. But I've never selected a wine based on the stated ABV since I have no idea how accurate those are and we only drink wine during and after dinner over the course of several hours.

As for the OP, when tasting through a number of wines in a day - I didn't quite understand but do people not spit if they know they'll be tasting more than one or two wines? That's not a complete solution because after going through three or four dozen, even spitting doesn't mean you won't feel the effect of alcohol, but who would taste a lineup of wines without spitting?

This however, was a bit surprising:
- No more than 2 glasses per night
- Last glass 3 hours before bed
- Wine with food
- no coffee past noon
- no working out 2-3 hours before bed
- snack before bed recommended
- hot shower or bath before bed
- no iPhones or laptops in bed - something about the emitted light stimulates the brain
- read before bed
Robert -

Who works out before going to bed?

Snack before bed seems counterintuitive. Especially a protein type snack. And you have to floss and brush your teeth anyway, so what's the point?

And who would ever take a phone or laptop to bed? That would be so offensive it would be grounds for divorce if you were married, or commitment to an institution if you were single. I think it's incredibly rude when people pull them out at dinner where it would certainly affect my metabolism of alcohol, but bed??
G . T a t a r

[i]"the incorrect overuse of apostrophes is staggering these days. I wonder if half the adults these days have any idea what they are for." Chris Seiber, 5/14/19[/i]

User avatar
Bryan Price
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 421
Joined: April 9th, 2017, 2:10 pm
Location: Coto de Caza, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#75 Post by Bryan Price » June 28th, 2019, 8:15 pm

This is interesting to me especially, considering champagne usually does not agree with me, but the heavy reds do!
Life's too short to drink bad wine.

User avatar
Anton D
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 30634
Joined: October 17th, 2013, 11:25 am
Location: Chico, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#76 Post by Anton D » June 28th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Over the years, I have been told by winemakers that the ABV percentage on wine labels can be a bit ‘flexible’ in its reporting, as there are taxes associated with certain ABV points.

There is some ‘variable fidelity’ built into that label data, which adds some extra noise to the precision of our discussion.

Also, we shouldn’t lose our grip on the fact that the OP notices the negative effect of higher ABV wines with his first glass. That’s a real twister to the chat!

Even with zero order kinetics, we are looking at a difference of only 0.1cc of alcohol 13% vs 15% and a 5 ounce glass) into a (randomly chose weight) 150 pound man.

It’s confounding!
Anton Dotson

What is man, when you come to think upon him, but a minutely set, ingenious machine for turning, with infinite artfulness, the fine red wine of Shiraz into urine?

User avatar
Andrew Christiansen
Posts: 1101
Joined: April 2nd, 2009, 6:29 pm
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#77 Post by Andrew Christiansen » June 28th, 2019, 10:05 pm

Late to this thread, but it seems that two things are apparent: Frank is getting old and he was probably drunk when he posted.

I am very clearly joking...FMIII is a friend and we are almost the same age, so I get where he is coming from with respect to how our bodies start reacting differently as we age. But, regardless of tangents/details/studies/theories about alc%/hydration/sleep, the important part for me is that it’s up to Frank how he enjoys this hobby.

He is not afraid to change and more importantly evolve, even if it deviates from styles or tastes. He owns his passion and can enjoy it however he pleases. Fortunately, he articulates and shares it with us, and this community is better for it, regardless of the path he chooses.

Vive la difference!

BTW...I am really enjoying a Mikkeller Beer Geek Breakfast Stout at only 7.5%!

User avatar
Todd Tucker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: May 18th, 2010, 4:49 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#78 Post by Todd Tucker » June 28th, 2019, 10:09 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
June 28th, 2019, 11:14 am
Todd Tucker wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 7:24 am

My first likely poor analogy: You liver is a sink. The water on the floor is your alcohol toxicity.

The drain in this sink that can only drain one gallon of water a minute. You are pouring in two ounces less than a gallon per minute. You can do that forever and not overflow. If you start pouring 4 extra ounces per minute into the sink it will overflow once it is filled, even though the incremental change is minimal as a relative percentage of the water you are pouring.
It's an interesting explanation. But it would need to be that the overflow point is right in between 13.5% and 15% or something, which would be quite a coincidence in the world of wine and the context of these stylistic discussions. Why isn't it that the alcohol effect only starts to really multiply between 15% and 17%, or between 11% and 13%?

Another possibility is that there is some placebo effect and confirmation bias involved. Someone knows he was just drinking Kutch one night, and knows he was drinking Harlan the next night, and knowing the alcohol content and styles of wines, he perceives that he was far more impaired or felt much worse on night 2.

Add to that the fact that, in all of these discussions we've had, every one of the people who are insistent about the difference in impairment being large between 13.5% wine and 15% wine are people who greatly prefer the former to the latter, and often have strong positive feelings about the people and wineries and regions that produce the former, and strong negative feelings about everything associated with the latter.

I've been reluctant to suggest this, since I don't wish to offend anyone with the observation, and I certainly don't mean to call anyone a liar, but isn't it at least possible that those strong feelings contribute to a perception that the former wines make you feel okay and the latter make you drunk and hung over? We all drink wines blind at times, knowing that our perceptions are going to be affected by knowing what's on the label. Couldn't that be the case here as well?

One last idea in this realm - do there tend to be different contexts in which someone with an AFWE palate is drinking high ABV wines? Is he usually having those only in larger events and tastings where he is drinking a lot more wine, whereas when he has half a bottle on a quiet Tuesday night, it's always or usually a low ABV wine? Could that tend to make someone think that they feel okay drinking Burg, but feel drunk and lousy drinking Zin?
Chris, I appreciate your thoughts but I think you are not getting my point. It is quite possible I did not explain it well. For instance someone’s threshold is at a glass of 11% alcohol per hour. They drink one glass per hour. Drinking a 15% would get you twice the overage of a 13%. If your threshold is is a 12% glass per hour the difference btw 13% and 15% would be threefold. There does not need to be a convenient amount btw 13.5 and 15%. There just needs to be more etoh than your metabolic threshold In your bloodstream to manifest the increase in BAL. this is the crux of the reason for feeling the difference in ABV in wine’s after a couple glasses.

To complicate things, alcohol dehydrogenase is an inductive enzyme, meaning more “training” can increase your “performance”, so different people will have different ability to metabolize ETOH. Separately, people can have wildly different tolerance to BAL. In training when in the ER we had patients in the “500 club” meaning a BAL of over .500. The highest I saw was a man with a BAL of .650 and the guy was talking to me. That level would kill most of the people on this board. So that in addition to the quantitative difference in overflow (the leftover ETOH in your bloodstream. Aka BAL) your BAL will be tolerated differently person to person. Add in difference in rate of absorption based on the alcohol level, the presence of bubbles or more specifically CO2 in the bubbles, presence or absence of food and what kind, you have a more complex situation.

I bet in my 30s when I was pre kids and drinking more regularly and quantitatively now, that my threshold was in the glass of 15% per hour range-easily, or at a minimum I tolerated a higher BAL better.I could drink several glasses of higher ABV wines over an evening, not really get buzzed, and be shockingly resilient the next day. I’m hitting 50 next month and I bet my threshold is in the glass of 11-12% range per hour. I am surprised regularly as I drink at night that I can feel the difference btw 12 and 15 easily at two glasses (having no idea of the wine’s etoh content when I open the Bottle)

Not sure if that makes sense, but that’s my best attempt at trying to explain the physiology involved.
Last edited by Todd Tucker on June 29th, 2019, 8:18 am, edited 4 times in total.

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4865
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#79 Post by Gerhard P. » June 29th, 2019, 7:51 am

Alcohol is and ever was a poison ... too much of it is not good for the health - period.

Help:
1. drink a lot of water in between your sips of wine - A LOT !
2. learn to spit ... it´s almost no loss of taste and pleasure (almost), but will minimize the alc consumed
3. drink less wine generally

I don´t want to go so far as to put water into your wine [head-bang.gif] but water in between and spitting will dfinitely help.

I always spit at tastings with many bottles - even at home. One can get used to it.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
R M Kriete
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 520
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 8:07 am
Location: Indialantic, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#80 Post by R M Kriete » June 29th, 2019, 8:17 am

Todd Tucker wrote:
June 28th, 2019, 10:09 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
June 28th, 2019, 11:14 am
Todd Tucker wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 7:24 am

My first likely poor analogy: You liver is a sink. The water on the floor is your alcohol toxicity.

The drain in this sink that can only drain one gallon of water a minute. You are pouring in two ounces less than a gallon per minute. You can do that forever and not overflow. If you start pouring 4 extra ounces per minute into the sink it will overflow once it is filled, even though the incremental change is minimal as a relative percentage of the water you are pouring.
It's an interesting explanation. But it would need to be that the overflow point is right in between 13.5% and 15% or something, which would be quite a coincidence in the world of wine and the context of these stylistic discussions. Why isn't it that the alcohol effect only starts to really multiply between 15% and 17%, or between 11% and 13%?

Another possibility is that there is some placebo effect and confirmation bias involved. Someone knows he was just drinking Kutch one night, and knows he was drinking Harlan the next night, and knowing the alcohol content and styles of wines, he perceives that he was far more impaired or felt much worse on night 2.

Add to that the fact that, in all of these discussions we've had, every one of the people who are insistent about the difference in impairment being large between 13.5% wine and 15% wine are people who greatly prefer the former to the latter, and often have strong positive feelings about the people and wineries and regions that produce the former, and strong negative feelings about everything associated with the latter.

I've been reluctant to suggest this, since I don't wish to offend anyone with the observation, and I certainly don't mean to call anyone a liar, but isn't it at least possible that those strong feelings contribute to a perception that the former wines make you feel okay and the latter make you drunk and hung over? We all drink wines blind at times, knowing that our perceptions are going to be affected by knowing what's on the label. Couldn't that be the case here as well?

One last idea in this realm - do there tend to be different contexts in which someone with an AFWE palate is drinking high ABV wines? Is he usually having those only in larger events and tastings where he is drinking a lot more wine, whereas when he has half a bottle on a quiet Tuesday night, it's always or usually a low ABV wine? Could that tend to make someone think that they feel okay drinking Burg, but feel drunk and lousy drinking Zin?
Chris, I appreciate your thoughts but I think you are not getting my point. It is quite possible I did not explain it well. Let’s say for instance someone’s threshold is at a glass of 11% alcohol per hour. Drinking a 15% would get you twice the overage of a 13%. If your threshold is is a 12% glass per hour the difference btw 13% and 15% would be threefold. There does not need to be a convenient amount btw 13.5 and 15%. There just needs to be more etoh than your metabolic threshold In your bloodstream to manifest the symptoms

I bet in my 30s when I was more fit, pre kids and drinking more that my threshold was in the glass of 15-6% per hour range-easily. I could drink several glasses of higher ABV wines over an evening, not really get buzzed, and be shockingly resilient the next day. I’m hitting 50 next month and I bet my threshold is in the glass of 11-12% range per hour. I am surprised regularly as I drink at night that I can feel the difference btw 12 and 15 easily at two glasses (having no idea of the wine’s etoh content when I open the Bottle)

Not sure if that makes sense, but that’s my best attempt at trying to explain the physiology involved.
Again, OP said the difference was apparent with one glass. Hard to understand how his liver’s ability to metabolize alcohol would be saturated if he just filled his glass with a mere 7.2% less of a 15% wine?

User avatar
Todd Tucker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: May 18th, 2010, 4:49 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#81 Post by Todd Tucker » June 29th, 2019, 8:38 am

I can see what you say about pour less volume. But if he doesn’t or if the higher absorption rate with higher ABV is a factor, that could be it. The first drink will have Less to do with your liver’s ability to process alcohol. It got in your bloodstream, maybe faster with higher ABV? Then your body starts working on it. The “feel” is your reaction to BAL. maybe he doesn’t tolerate higher BAL as well as before?

I thinkFM just clarified the first glass comment. For me I feel it in the second glass. Feeling it may mean different things to different people. I’m not sure.

To reiterate, and I am not trying to be snarky here, people need to drop the concept of 7.2% less in their reasoning when talking about zero order kinetics. It displays a fundamental lack of understanding in how this aspect of physiology works.

I’m not sure I can convey my thoughts on this better. Maybe someone else can.

Science begins with observation. We try to figure out the world. Many times people come up with weird logic to explain the observations that feeds their existing beliefs. Maybe blaming a wine style they don’t like for their effects could be one. Maybe not. Misusing science or logic can be another way of finding the wrong answer. I love the Monty Python witch trial I the Holy Grail. “A duck!”

Physiology is non linear. I’m going to pass the torch to hopefully a physiologist or hepatologist here who can hopefully shed some more light, correct anything I or others have said.

I think there are preconceived beliefs here that people are reluctant to abandon. I’ve looked into this in the past to better understand alcohol toxicity, and this is the data I have learned. I went i with open eyes trying to understand it better and this is the best information I could learn. I am not a physiologist, but have a pretty good understanding of the basic science and physiology and am pretty good at telling bullshit from real science when reading scientific articles, and when I didn’t understand, I had really smart friends who helped understand or told me when I was wrong. This is my best effort to share what I have learned and to try to put some understanding behind people’s observations. I could be wrong or only partly right. People can choose to believe what I think is the explanation. Your choice.
Last edited by Todd Tucker on June 29th, 2019, 9:00 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Frank Murray III
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7833
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 5:51 pm
Location: South OC

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#82 Post by Frank Murray III » June 29th, 2019, 8:44 am

Todd, the link that Anton provided in his earlier post makes zero-order pretty easy to understand, at least to me.

RM, I don't believe I said that it was apparent with one glass. What I said, or instead let me clarify what I am meaning. Often times, if you pour me something at 14-16% and I have a glass of it, I start to feel it. Do the same with a glass of Champagne, the same feeling/perception is not present.

We can argue about the math here and semantics about what is, but I am telling you guys that my body is not taking to the bigger ABV wines anymore. Whether that is a function of zero-order mechanics, or age, or both, my view into how I have to treat the way I enjoy the hobby now has to change. Today will be a good test for my approach. There will probably be 15-20 wines in my backyard today. I know there will be Champagne, which I will probably stick to and drink. For any larger ABV reds, I will probably taste and spit. Along with my usual of lots of water and food, but with some better pace now.

For some of you who don't seem to have challenge with higher ABV wines, I'd like to see you post your age. If we're going to have some fair context here, then it would be helpful to see how young some of you are that enjoy these higher ABV wines. Again, I am 53.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

User avatar
Todd Tucker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: May 18th, 2010, 4:49 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#83 Post by Todd Tucker » June 29th, 2019, 9:03 am

Frank.

Middle age is upon us. I’m just lucky that I act immaturely to make up for my body’s failings.
Hope you have a great afternoon!

User avatar
R M Kriete
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 520
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 8:07 am
Location: Indialantic, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#84 Post by R M Kriete » June 29th, 2019, 9:40 am

Frank Murray III wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 8:44 am
Todd, the link that Anton provided in his earlier post makes zero-order pretty easy to understand, at least to me.

RM, I don't believe I said that it was apparent with one glass. What I said, or instead let me clarify what I am meaning. Often times, if you pour me something at 14-16% and I have a glass of it, I start to feel it. Do the same with a glass of Champagne, the same feeling/perception is not present.

We can argue about the math here and semantics about what is, but I am telling you guys that my body is not taking to the bigger ABV wines anymore. Whether that is a function of zero-order mechanics, or age, or both, my view into how I have to treat the way I enjoy the hobby now has to change. Today will be a good test for my approach. There will probably be 15-20 wines in my backyard today. I know there will be Champagne, which I will probably stick to and drink. For any larger ABV reds, I will probably taste and spit. Along with my usual of lots of water and food, but with some better pace now.

For some of you who don't seem to have challenge with higher ABV wines, I'd like to see you post your age. If we're going to have some fair context here, then it would be helpful to see how young some of you are that enjoy these higher ABV wines. Again, I am 53.
Frank, I’m 55 and I have a solution. Give me all your non-Champagne wines. I will save you from their ill effects and I will promise to drink them all as part of controlled scientific investigations [wink.gif]

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18999
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#85 Post by Alan Rath » June 29th, 2019, 9:45 am

Frank, do you not spit champagne? I spit everything, otherwise I would be toast going through 20 wines if I drank even small glasses of just a few.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Anton D
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 30634
Joined: October 17th, 2013, 11:25 am
Location: Chico, CA

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#86 Post by Anton D » June 29th, 2019, 10:32 am

Alan Rath wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 9:45 am
Frank, do you not spit champagne? I spit everything, otherwise I would be toast going through 20 wines if I drank even small glasses of just a few.
When there’s no spit bucket, Alan just pretends that whatever people say to him is either over the top hilarious or shocking. [cheers.gif]
Anton Dotson

What is man, when you come to think upon him, but a minutely set, ingenious machine for turning, with infinite artfulness, the fine red wine of Shiraz into urine?

User avatar
Frank Murray III
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7833
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 5:51 pm
Location: South OC

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#87 Post by Frank Murray III » June 29th, 2019, 11:05 am

Todd, enjoy the heat out there. Maybe you can open a big Napa Cab (make sure it has lots of alcohol, of course) and enjoy the afternoon with it. [swoon.gif]

Anton, I have to say that I enjoy your sense of humor. You seem to have a way of mixing opinion, logic and humor across the forum. I appreciate that and your posts.

RM, I'd like to preserve your presence here on the Board so I will have to decline your request. I do though recommend you drink some Champagne today and remember it was me that bestowed that wisdom upon you.

Alan, usually not, as lots of times it is just a bottle or two with my wife, or Brig, etc. And when I am drinking Champagne, it is often dominating the setting these days. For every bottle on non-Champagne, there usually is at least a 1 to 1.5-2 ratio of Champagne next to them. So, if I am going to survive to RM's age, I will have to manage some spitting in settings with lots of wine, like what will be happening here today.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2409
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#88 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 29th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Frank, I have learned a couple of things from this thread, thanks for starting it.
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18999
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#89 Post by Alan Rath » June 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 10:32 am
Alan Rath wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 9:45 am
Frank, do you not spit champagne? I spit everything, otherwise I would be toast going through 20 wines if I drank even small glasses of just a few.
When there’s no spit bucket, Alan just pretends that whatever people say to him is either over the top hilarious or shocking. [cheers.gif]
I do a lot of spit takes!

For many dinners and tastings we bring our own glassware, I keep a stack of paper cups in my case to use for spitting. And if I’m in a restaurant that is supplying stems, I’ll ask for a coffee mug to use as a spit cup. Where I live I’m usually driving, so it’s imperative to minimize alcohol consumption, even without thinking about how it affects me the next day.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Craig G
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14778
Joined: March 6th, 2011, 10:57 am
Location: Town of Cats

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#90 Post by Craig G » June 29th, 2019, 11:31 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 10:32 am
Alan Rath wrote:
June 29th, 2019, 9:45 am
Frank, do you not spit champagne? I spit everything, otherwise I would be toast going through 20 wines if I drank even small glasses of just a few.
When there’s no spit bucket, Alan just pretends that whatever people say to him is either over the top hilarious or shocking. [cheers.gif]
I do a lot of spit takes!
For the love of God, don’t explain the joke.
“You need to look down to the bottom shelf where they keep the Fighting Cock” — Corey N.

C. Gle@son

User avatar
Sh@n A
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1077
Joined: July 9th, 2018, 8:21 am

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#91 Post by Sh@n A » June 30th, 2019, 3:25 am

NoahR wrote:
June 27th, 2019, 7:40 pm
In a way, I thank my migraines for their chilling effect on how much I drink. But I go through periods where I fight through migraines for 7-10 days in a row before things let up. Don’t wish that on anyone.
Im sure you are aware of anti-CGRPs that hit the market a year ago? And if so Alder had an IV anti-CGRP that will hit the market in Jan? Perhaps worth a look... been a game changer for many... but I am no doctor
/ @ g r @ \

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9961
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#92 Post by dcornutt » June 30th, 2019, 4:58 am

I have an interesting study that was recently published that stated that most of the alcohol absorbed is from the stomach not the duodenum. If you give a beer, wine and whisky the duodenal concentration of all three is exactly the same. The only thing that seemed to make a little difference was the presence of a fasting state which increased the absorption of the alcohol. The non fasting concentrations in the stomach were higher. I have posted the pubmed abstract here. The interesting thing about this is that concerning absorption, the small % of alcohol we are discussing here has little effect probably on what we are discussing. The stomach is VERY efficient at absorbing liquids.

The induction of hepatic enzymes, sensitivity to ethanol (tolerence level) and function of alcohol dehydrogenase (genetic) probably have more effect. Thus the way Todd described the issue is accurate to me. It has to do with clearance from the body primarily not absorption.


Mol Pharm. 2017 Dec 4;14(12):4202-4208. doi: 10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.7b00252. Epub 2017 Aug 11.
Gastric and Duodenal Ethanol Concentrations after Intake of Alcoholic Beverages in Postprandial Conditions.

Rubbens J1, Riethorst D1, Brouwers J1, Wolfs K2, Adams E2, Tack J3, Augustijns P1.
Author information
Abstract

This study determined intraluminal ethanol concentrations (stomach and duodenum) in fed healthy volunteers after the consumption of common alcoholic beverages (beer, wine, and whisky). The results of this study were compared with a previous study in fasted volunteers. Five healthy volunteers were recruited in a crossover study. The fed state was simulated by ingestion of 250 mL of Nutridrink Compact Neutral. Volunteers subsequently consumed two standard units of beer (Stella Artois, 500 mL, 5.2% ethanol), wine (Blanc du Blanc, 200 mL, 11% ethanol), or whisky (Gallantry Whisky, 80 mL, 40% ethanol). Gastric and duodenal fluids were aspirated through two catheters over time and analyzed for ethanol content by head space gas chromatography. The capability of ethanol to permeate gastric and duodenal rat mucosa was examined in an Ussing chambers setup. A similar average gastric Cmax was observed in the beer and the wine conditions: 3.3% and 3.7% ethanol, respectively. The gastric Cmax in the whisky condition amounted to 8.5% ethanol. Lower ethanol concentrations were observed in the duodenum compared to the stomach. The duodenal Cmax was similar in all three conditions: 1.3%, 1.2%, and 1.6% ethanol for beer, wine, and whisky, respectively. Compared to the fasted state (reported in a previous study), higher gastric ethanol concentrations were observed during a longer time period. In the beer and wine conditions, similar concentrations were observed in the intestine regardless of the prandial state. After intake of whisky, however, the ethanol concentration was lower in the fed intestine. Alcohol was observed to permeate both gastric and duodenal rat mucosa. Higher intragastric ethanol concentrations were maintained for a longer period of time in fed compared to fasted state conditions. However, the observed concentration profiles were not in line with current FDA guidelines for alcohol resistance testing of formulations, stating that in vitro tests should investigate the impact of up to 40% ethanol for 2 h. The presented intraluminal ethanol concentrations may serve as reference data for the further development of relevant in vitro models to assess ethanol effects on formulation performance.
KEYWORDS:
alcohol; alcoholic beverages; clinical study; intestine; intraluminal ethanol concentrations; stomach
PMID: 28731350 DOI: 10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.7b00252
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9961
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#93 Post by dcornutt » June 30th, 2019, 5:11 am

This is from a forensic group on metabolism. Fasting state is everything. The elimination rate is half the fed state. The saturation of the system happens much quicker. You can also see that people who drink all the time have double to triple the elimination rate. I have one more paper. It discusses carbonation.


Forensic Sci Int. 2010 Jul 15;200(1-3):1-20. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2010.02.021. Epub 2010 Mar 20.
Evidence-based survey of the elimination rates of ethanol from blood with applications in forensic casework.

Jones AW1.
Author information
Abstract
Reliable information about the elimination rate of alcohol (ethanol) from blood is often needed in forensic science and legal medicine when alcohol-related crimes, such as drunken driving or drug-related sexual assault are investigated. A blood sample for forensic analysis might not be taken until several hours after an offence was committed. The courts usually want to know the suspect's blood-alcohol concentration (BAC) at some earlier time, such as the time of driving. Making these back calculations or retrograde extrapolations of BAC in criminal cases has many proponents and critics. Ethanol is eliminated from the body mainly by oxidative metabolism in the liver by Class I isoenzymes of alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH). Ethanol is an example of a drug for which the Michaelis-Menten pharmacokinetic model applies and the Michaelis constant (k(m)) for Class I ADH is at a BAC of 2-10mg/100mL. This means that the enzyme is saturated with substrate after the first few drinks and that zero-order kinetics is adequate to describe the declining phase of the BAC profile in most forensic situations (BAC>20mg/100mL). After drinking on an empty stomach, the elimination rate of ethanol from blood falls within the range 10-15 mg/100mL/h. In non-fasted subjects the rate of elimination tends to be in the range 15-20mg/100mL/h. In alcoholics during detoxification, because activity of microsomal enzyme (CYP2E1) is boosted, the ethanol elimination rate might be 25-35 mg/100mL/h. The slope of the BAC declining phase is slightly steeper in women compared with men, which seems to be related to gender differences in liver weight in relation to lean body mass. The present evidence-based review suggests that the physiological range of ethanol elimination rates from blood is from 10 to 35 mg/100mL/h. In moderate drinkers 15 mg/100mL/h remains a good average value for the population, whereas in apprehended drivers 19 mg/100mL/h is more appropriate, since many of these individuals are binge drinkers or alcoholics. In preparing this article, a large number of peer-reviewed publications were scrutinized. Only those meeting certain standards in experimental design, dose of alcohol and blood-sampling protocol were used. The results presented can hopefully serve as best-practice guidelines when questions arise in criminal and civil litigation about the elimination rate of ethanol from blood in humans.
(c) 2010 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9961
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#94 Post by dcornutt » June 30th, 2019, 5:19 am

Again from the forensic guys. They really have an interest here. This shows that carbonation has a variable effect on absorption. About 2/3 of the people had some increase in absorption. Some didn't change and some actually showed a slowing. The hypothesis is a little flawed here because diluted drinks tend to be consumed faster than high % ones. FWIW.

RE: OP I don't doubt FMIIIs observation. To me this is something that is more likely due to reaching a threshold for metabolism. It is easy to dismiss someones observation as biased but I would hate to do that and miss something important. That to me is that we all have these thresholds for saturation of our system. Unless you are willing to drink heavily to induce your enzymes or some other manuever, you need to heed these and follow your best instincts. My opinion only.


J Forensic Leg Med. 2007 Oct;14(7):398-405. Epub 2007 May 16.
Alcohol concentration and carbonation of drinks: the effect on blood alcohol levels.

Roberts C1, Robinson SP.
Author information
Abstract
Alcohol absorption and elimination vary considerably amongst individuals, and are subject to influences from a variety of factors. The effects of alcohol concentration and beverage mixer type on the rate of alcohol absorption, in a controlled environment was studied. 21 subjects (12 male, 9 female) consumed a solution containing alcohol, on three separate occasions. The three solutions were, A: Neat vodka (37.5 vol%), B: Vodka mixed with still water (18.75 vol%), C: Vodka mixed with carbonated water (18.75 vol%). The volume of alcohol each subject consumed was determined by Widmark's equation. The alcohol was drunk in a 5 min period following an overnight fast and breath alcohol concentrations were measured over a 4h period using a breathalyser. 20/21 subjects absorbed the dilute alcohol at a faster rate than the concentrated alcohol. The difference between the absorption rates was found to be significant (p<0.001). The use of a carbonated mixer had varying effects on the alcohol absorption rate. 14/21 subjects absorbed the alcohol with the carbonated mixer at a faster rate, with 7 subjects showing either no change or a decrease in rate. The mean absorption rate for solution C was 4.39+/-0.45 (mg/100ml/min), and the difference between this absorption rate and that with the still mixer (1.08+0.36) was significant (p=0.006).
PMID: 17720590 DOI: 10.1016/j.jflm.2006.12.010
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9961
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#95 Post by dcornutt » June 30th, 2019, 5:29 am

Just to clarify my point on absorption, it doesn't seem to matter. It will be complete in the stomach and very rapid. What DOES matter is fed status, hydration and hepatic status as concerns hepatic clearance. As you can see hepatic clearance is affected more by fed status and prior alcohol intake than absorption. That is why these things matter. It is a clearance problem not absorption. They affect your hepatic clearance and saturation point for toxicity. Hope this clarifies.
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 14043
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#96 Post by Jay Miller » July 1st, 2019, 1:12 pm

Just another anecdotal observation.


Arnold has Asian Flush Syndrome so I tend to serve lower alcohol wines (most often Spatlese or Auslese) with dinner. One night when I tried im with a 9% Kabinett as opposed to a 7% Spatlese he reacted after the first sip saying, "Wow, this wine is much higher in alcohol than the one you served last week."
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
David Glasser
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6622
Joined: August 16th, 2009, 6:03 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#97 Post by David Glasser » July 1st, 2019, 1:24 pm

Todd and Don have done an excellent job explaining the science of alcohol absorption, metabolism/clearance, and their effect on what we feel.

Frank, I'm 63 and noticed a couple of changes in my ability to handle alcohol over the years. Some time in my late 30s I noticed a decrease in the amount needed to produce a poor night’s sleep and a crappy morning after. I adjusted with smaller pours and/or spitting at large tastings.

Similar to you, in my late 50s I noticed a decrease in the amount needed to feel a little buzz after ~30 minutes and then fatigue an hour later. This seemed correlated to higher ABV wines whether white or red, still or bubbly. I think that fits with the science as Todd and Don have explained it, even though the amount of ethanol in a 16% wine isn’t that much more than a 14% wine.

I’m fortunate to enjoy German Riesling, much of which is 10% ABV or less. I still drink big reds with high ABVs, but more slowly and only a glass or two over the course of an evening. And I’ve reduced my consumption at tastings even further.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16909
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#98 Post by Howard Cooper » July 1st, 2019, 5:21 pm

Greg K wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 11:58 am
Like a recent visit to Burgundy, where one producer we visited also spat every barrel pour other than his Clos de la Roche, stating "this one I do not spit" [snort.gif].) Also makes visiting wine country easier
Another benefit to spitting when visiting wineries is that they take people who spit more seriously. It shows them you are interested in the wine and not just in getting a buzz.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16909
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#99 Post by Howard Cooper » July 1st, 2019, 5:22 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 26th, 2019, 3:54 pm


My friend’s advice is practical as well, as people like their coffee, and some of us that burn too many candles, perhaps like it more than we should. I love a cup at the 5-6 PM time, but know it’s not the smartest thing. Then I need an additional glass of wine to bring it back down. And so starts the cycle, lol.
Your problem likely is that you work too many hours in a high stress job. Other impacts are derivative of that.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21584
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: Some random thoughts, mainly about alcohol...

#100 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 1st, 2019, 5:26 pm

Ironic that you should post this just now. I fell back into my cycle. Took the associates downstairs for coffee at 4:30. Home at 7. Still have about an hour of work in prep for an 8:30 public hearing. And really really enjoying that fine Bordeaux, glass three, right now. Tomorrow, some butt must be kicked. The goal is not mine.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”