Went nuts and ...

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Panos Kakaviatos
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Went nuts and ...

#1 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 12th, 2019, 1:52 pm

.. bought two Leoville Las Cases 05s on sale and in bottle for $265. Absurd price for a single bottle of wine, but then again, a great wine. And a competitive price.
I am mainly based in Europe, and thanks for reading wine-chronicles(.)com

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#2 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 12th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:52 pm
.. bought two Leoville Las Cases 05s on sale and in bottle for $265. Absurd price for a single bottle of wine, but then again, a great wine. And a competitive price.
Totally and completely insane. I'll bring a champagne. Where and what time?
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Robert.A.Jr.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#3 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 12th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Call me in 5 years, Panos!

I’m much more entertaining than Neal!

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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J a y H a c k
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#4 Post by J a y H a c k » June 12th, 2019, 2:52 pm

I have the 05 Cos. When do we meet?
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#5 Post by Carlos Delpin » June 12th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Do it in PR and I’ll take care of the details...

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#6 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 12th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Great vintage with fourteen years of bottle age, as opposed to the same estate’s 2018 at a similar price. Smart buy, grasshopper.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#7 Post by Howard Cooper » June 13th, 2019, 4:14 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:52 pm
I have the 05 Cos. When do we meet?
I can bring Montrose
Howard

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Robert.A.Jr.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#8 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 4:17 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:14 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:52 pm
I have the 05 Cos. When do we meet?
I can bring Montrose
Seriously, Howard?! We have LLC and Montrose, and you are including Jay and his milkshake?! [wow.gif]

I like the Puerto Rico angle. Carlos is VIP down there.

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#9 Post by Howard Cooper » June 13th, 2019, 5:20 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:17 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:14 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:52 pm
I have the 05 Cos. When do we meet?
I can bring Montrose
Seriously, Howard?! We have LLC and Montrose, and you are including Jay and his milkshake?! [wow.gif]

I like the Puerto Rico angle. Carlos is VIP down there.
Cos and Montrose are the two historic superstar estates of the Medoc. One has lost its way, the other clearly has not. A comparison between the two would be interesting, esp. since I get to taste Panos' LLC and your Haut Brion also. [winner.gif] And, I figured the tasting would be at your mansion although it also could be at my house.

Of course, there will be two tastings. One night we do this wines. The next night I make you and Jay drink Burgundy!!!!!! [wow.gif] [oops.gif] [help.gif]

I would mention feeling sorry for Panos having to put up with a bunch of lawyers, but Panos has to do this every year when he comes home to DC. I think at our big January tasting this year there were two thirds attorneys or retired attorneys and one of the others is married to a retired attorney. And, it was only Panos who was turned away at the French embassy.
Howard

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#10 Post by crickey » June 13th, 2019, 5:48 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:17 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 4:14 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:52 pm
I have the 05 Cos. When do we meet?
I can bring Montrose
Seriously, Howard?! We have LLC and Montrose, and you are including Jay and his milkshake?! [wow.gif]
I think it's funny you scorned the Cos, even though LLC has long had the reputation for having the most "spoofy" wine-making, although I will leave it to others as to whether cold soaks, temperature-controlled fermentation and gravity pumps are more spoofy than micro-oxygenation or reverse osmosis.

Incidentally, at the 2017 Farr tasting, both Montrose and Cos were described as "nowhere near ready to drink," and in his 2018 article on Cos, Neal Martin said that the 2005 needed 15-20 more years to reach its drinking window. I doubt the LLC is any closer. Have fun drinking tannin bombs. (Now I can hear Joan Jett singing, "ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-tannin bombs!" I'll have that damn song in my head all day.)
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#11 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 5:52 am

I thought my emoticon would have suggested a bit of sarcasm in my post.

And yea, I’m not touching the big boy left banks from 2005 for a very long time.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#12 Post by crickey » June 13th, 2019, 6:03 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 5:52 am
I thought my emoticon would have suggested a bit of sarcasm in my post.

And yea, I’m not touching the big boy left banks from 2005 for a very long time.
I thought the emoticon was about bringing Cos, specifically.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#13 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 6:04 am

It was

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#14 Post by Howard Cooper » June 13th, 2019, 6:09 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:04 am
It was
I seem to recall from prior discussions that you also are not a huge LLC fan.
Howard

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#15 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 6:15 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:09 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:04 am
It was
I seem to recall from prior discussions that you also are not a huge LLC fan.
You guys are killing me. I was being sarcastic. However, I do not think LLC is spoofed like Cos. And I don’t think anyone says Montrose is spoofed!

I’m out, gotta go bill some sick fees. :)

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#16 Post by K John Joseph » June 13th, 2019, 6:25 am

I've had 9 bottles of 2005 Cos because I have no problem killing em young. It's sensational. Ignore this "spoof" bullshit. That wine is big, I'll readily admit, but it's Bordeaux, it is not syrupy, and it is super complex and aromatic. I'll bring a 2005 Le Dome if you guys want to do this.

KIDDING! (Not about the Cos).
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#17 Post by Howard Cooper » June 13th, 2019, 6:51 am

K John Joseph wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:25 am
I've had 9 bottles of 2005 Cos because I have no problem killing em young. It's sensational. Ignore this "spoof" bullshit. That wine is big, I'll readily admit, but it's Bordeaux, it is not syrupy, and it is super complex and aromatic. I'll bring a 2005 Le Dome if you guys want to do this.

KIDDING! (Not about the Cos).
Robert would like it better if you bring Ducru. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160420&p=2724351&hi ... r#p2724351
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#18 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 13th, 2019, 7:18 am

My favorite super second from the Medoc was the Pichon Baron. But the really great wine, the one you want for the tasting, is from the Right Bank, the VCC. I think Panos is also a major fan.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#19 Post by R. Frankel » June 13th, 2019, 7:50 am

Panos you couldn’t have posted in a more sympathetic place. To be a Berserker is to passionately pursue the great wine under $50 before others discover it. And at the same time to crack and pay up for the great wine we all know about.

I would love to attend this 2005 Bordeaux event in 5 or 10 years. I’ll bring Palmer :).
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#20 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 10:26 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:51 am
K John Joseph wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:25 am
I've had 9 bottles of 2005 Cos because I have no problem killing em young. It's sensational. Ignore this "spoof" bullshit. That wine is big, I'll readily admit, but it's Bordeaux, it is not syrupy, and it is super complex and aromatic. I'll bring a 2005 Le Dome if you guys want to do this.

KIDDING! (Not about the Cos).
Robert would like it better if you bring Ducru. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160420&p=2724351&hi ... r#p2724351
LOL. #stillbitter

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#21 Post by Greg K » June 13th, 2019, 10:59 am

I haven't touched by cases of 2005 Pichon Baron and Pontet Canet, but would be curious to see what the LLC is like. I had a 2006 Montrose in a blind tasting vs a 2001 Montelena last week, and while I immediately identified the Montrose as the Bordeaux*, I also didn't want to drink it. It's massive and showing some oak that, while I'm sure will round out with time - that time hasn't arrived.

*At the same tasting I whiffed on Rhys vs. a Caroline Morey Chassagne, so this was a sad saving grace.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#22 Post by Mike Grammer » June 13th, 2019, 12:38 pm

I get first dibs--Panos is still holding my bottle of 2009 Mugneret-Gibourg Chambolle Feusselottes hostage---this would be a lovely wine to pair with that one [grin.gif]

Great work, amigo!
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#23 Post by Howard Cooper » June 13th, 2019, 2:42 pm

Mike Grammer wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 12:38 pm
I get first dibs--Panos is still holding my bottle of 2009 Mugneret-Gibourg Chambolle Feusselottes hostage---this would be a lovely wine to pair with that one [grin.gif]

Great work, amigo!
We could do a Feusselottes tasting instead.
Howard

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#24 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 13th, 2019, 2:45 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 2:42 pm
Mike Grammer wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 12:38 pm
I get first dibs--Panos is still holding my bottle of 2009 Mugneret-Gibourg Chambolle Feusselottes hostage---this would be a lovely wine to pair with that one [grin.gif]

Great work, amigo!
We could do a Feusselottes tasting instead.
I wouldn’t know how to pronounce that, so would need to bail out. In my country accent, it would sound like “fuselage”, Hope it don’t taste like that, or the Cos.

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#25 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » June 13th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Out of interest, when do people think Cos "lost its way"? I think the youngest I've had were 2002 and 2003 - the former surprisingly good, and the latter also given I expected it to be pruney and awful from the vintage.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#26 Post by Alan Eden » June 13th, 2019, 3:04 pm

Recently had 05 Montrose, not even close to being ready
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#27 Post by crickey » June 13th, 2019, 3:47 pm

Rauno E (NZ) wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Out of interest, when do people think Cos "lost its way"? I think the youngest I've had were 2002 and 2003 - the former surprisingly good, and the latter also given I expected it to be pruney and awful from the vintage.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "lost its way." In the sense that Howard meant it, around the mid 90's, according to Neal Martin's article on Cos. In another sense, again from NM's article, after 1961. Interestingly, or ironically, the mid-90's way is undoubtedly a reaction to the problems of the post-61 way, a business decision to not be so dependent on the whims of nature to deliver a fine vintage.

If you liked the 2002 and 2003, it sounds like you could follow Parker's scores and be content (he rated both among the best wines of the vintage). The possible exception is 2009, where nature and wine-making combined exponentially to produce an extreme wine. Parker could be right, that in 25-50 years it will yield a superb wine, or it could be a mess forever and always, as many others think. I will find out in 15-25 years or so, when I open the bottles I purchased as part of a mixed lot at auction.

On 2003, St. Estephe managed to produce some good wines despite the vintage, Cos and Montrose foremost among them.

To keep on thread, the 2005 Cos has been highly praised from different points on the critical spectrum.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#28 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 7:18 am
My favorite super second from the Medoc was the Pichon Baron. But the really great wine, the one you want for the tasting, is from the Right Bank, the VCC. I think Panos is also a major fan.
Oh yes! I got two of those as well, VCC is fabulous in 2005! :-)
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#29 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:15 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:09 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:04 am
It was
I seem to recall from prior discussions that you also are not a huge LLC fan.
You guys are killing me. I was being sarcastic. However, I do not think LLC is spoofed like Cos. And I don’t think anyone says Montrose is spoofed!

I’m out, gotta go bill some sick fees. :)
Ever since Aymeric de Gironde had arrived on the scene, for the super difficult vintage of 2013, Cos became more classical, and even sometimes understated (for “modern” palates). He set the tone for the change, maintained since he left to make a similar fine alteration for Troplong Mondot :-).
I am mainly based in Europe, and thanks for reading wine-chronicles(.)com

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#30 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 12:11 pm

Mike Grammer wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 12:38 pm
I get first dibs--Panos is still holding my bottle of 2009 Mugneret-Gibourg Chambolle Feusselottes hostage---this would be a lovely wine to pair with that one [grin.gif]

Great work, amigo!
Mike ! We must find a date :-)
I am mainly based in Europe, and thanks for reading wine-chronicles(.)com

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#31 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Great vintage with fourteen years of bottle age, as opposed to the same estate’s 2018 at a similar price. Smart buy, grasshopper.
Thanks for the reassurance ;-)
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#32 Post by lleichtman » June 14th, 2019, 1:54 pm

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:52 pm
.. bought two Leoville Las Cases 05s on sale and in bottle for $265. Absurd price for a single bottle of wine, but then again, a great wine. And a competitive price.
Where did you buy. I would buy at $265.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#33 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 14th, 2019, 2:37 pm

Rauno E (NZ) wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Out of interest, when do people think Cos "lost its way"? I think the youngest I've had were 2002 and 2003 - the former surprisingly good, and the latter also given I expected it to be pruney and awful from the vintage.
Of all the super seconds, my last favorite is Cos. I never find it be particularly distinctive, and when Jean Guillaume was screwing around with it, there was never enough terroir there to make it interesting. The 2003 was pretty nasty, but it the 2009 was seriously problematic, causing John Gilman to call it a train wreck. I wouldn’t go quite that far, maybe a couple of Mercedes scraping each other in a parking lot. I retasted it last year, and it was every bit as anonymous and overly friendly as it was in barrel. Hard to say it was a Bordeaux, let alone from Saint Estephe. Interestingly the 2010 was a much better wine, a low 90 point effort.

It is only fair to mention that I never buy Cos, so my impressions are based on a small sample; when tasted in barrel, one vertical I attended, and when someone else brings a bottle.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#34 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » June 14th, 2019, 3:21 pm

Interesting Mark - my sampling of Cos has been pretty small too, but IIRC I picked out the 2002 and 2003 blind - i.e. they reminded me enough of Cos for me to guess that in a line up. Of course, it could be that I associated anonymity with Cos from previous tasting ;). Last time I had it was a glass of the 2003 in a NYC restaurant - very good, and much less "2003" character than I would have thought, without being "great" in any way. Given I actively dislike many other wines from 2003, I think of the Cos as a relative success.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#35 Post by Mike Grammer » June 14th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 12:11 pm
Mike Grammer wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 12:38 pm
I get first dibs--Panos is still holding my bottle of 2009 Mugneret-Gibourg Chambolle Feusselottes hostage---this would be a lovely wine to pair with that one [grin.gif]

Great work, amigo!
Mike ! We must find a date :-)
and a place. And Jurgen. It wouldn't be right without Jurgen! :)
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#36 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 14th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:15 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 6:09 am


I seem to recall from prior discussions that you also are not a huge LLC fan.
You guys are killing me. I was being sarcastic. However, I do not think LLC is spoofed like Cos. And I don’t think anyone says Montrose is spoofed!

I’m out, gotta go bill some sick fees. :)
Ever since Aymeric de Gironde had arrived on the scene, for the super difficult vintage of 2013, Cos became more classical, and even sometimes understated (for “modern” palates). He set the tone for the change, maintained since he left to make a similar fine alteration for Troplong Mondot :-).
Aha, a winery without soul. More like a luxury fashion product. One day the long skirt is in. For centuries. The house gets accolades on the big 1855 dance floor. Then the short short skirt is in. Paparazzi loves it. Then Jacki Kennedy reputedly is back in style, so the skirt goes long again, but above the knee for style points. And another Paparazzi set loves it. Hard to keep track. I’ll stick with the classic, predictable estates. Classic never goes out of style. Cos is not that. :)

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#37 Post by Pat Martin » June 14th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Data point: I got 4 bottles of the 2002 Cos quite cheaply in 2016 (for $32, long story why so cheap). Tried one shortly thereafter and found it more like a licorice-infused Cali Cab than a St Estephe. Even at $32, I decided to sell the remaining 3 bottles.
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#38 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 9:39 pm

lleichtman wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 1:54 pm
Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:52 pm
.. bought two Leoville Las Cases 05s on sale and in bottle for $265. Absurd price for a single bottle of wine, but then again, a great wine. And a competitive price.
Where did you buy. I would buy at $265.
Belmont Exchange
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Re: Went nuts and ...

#39 Post by Howard Cooper » June 15th, 2019, 4:57 am

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:52 pm
.. bought two Leoville Las Cases 05s on sale and in bottle for $265. Absurd price for a single bottle of wine, but then again, a great wine. And a competitive price.
Getting back to the original post, Panos, LLC is one of my very favorite Bordeaux estates and has been as long as I can remember. Of the various producers that you have brought to DC, my favorite tasting was the LLC tasting (I was away on vacation and missed the Palmer tasting). If this wine is close to wonderful vintages like 1975, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, and 1996, you will have a real treat on your hands. And, if you don't know what to do with the wine, you can always bring it to one of our January tastings!!!!!!!

In any case, you have now paid for the wine, so just enjoy it and don't worry anymore about what it is worth.
Howard

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Re: Went nuts and ...

#40 Post by BobH » June 15th, 2019, 7:17 am

Rauno E (NZ) wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Out of interest, when do people think Cos "lost its way"? I think the youngest I've had were 2002 and 2003 - the former surprisingly good, and the latter also given I expected it to be pruney and awful from the vintage.
Cos was always my favorite Bordeaux because of its distinctive character and spice notes, not to mention affordability. I barrel tasted the 2000 in June 2001 at the Chateau and lined it quite a bit. However, they were quite upset and ashamed (their words) of their relatively low rating from Bob Parker compared to that of their neighboring properties. They strongly implied they were going to change things up. There wasn’t time to do much for the 2001, and I think the 2002 may be a transition wine. Starting in 2003 things clearly changed
hud@k

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