Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

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Sh@n A
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Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#1 Post by Sh@n A » June 9th, 2019, 7:19 pm

Just posting it out there, not expecting an organized response as I'm not really sure what I am looking for....

I am closer - but not yet there - to establishing "saccharomyces cerevisiae" as my problem allergen in many white wines and perhaps a trigger for my autoimmune disease. A 2001 Rieussec, which sadly is one of my highest scoring wine of 2019 YTD, wreaked me. Immediate throbbing tooth ache, body ache, back ache etc. I emailed with the estate and "saccharomyces cerevisiae" is the only non-native yeast they add to the wine. I also, per reading, seem to think that this S. Cerevisiae is present in many beers, ciders and white wines, more so than red wines -- hence my allergy to whites and not reds. I also wonder if this means drinking higher end wines tends to be more organic/natural/native fermentation where this not an issue. Two natural whites tried in Paris did not have any reaction. Frankly, I can only think of a single red wine that caused a similar reaction, which was a Catena Zapata (I believe a 2010 malbec/cabernet blend) and I just emailed them to find out if they use this non-native yeast as well. I struggle to think of any other reds over the last 5YRs with similar reaction.

In terms of white wine allergies, it's developed over time. A glass of French Laundry champagne from the restaurant in 2011 had no reaction, but a sip from a bottle purchased the same night tasted a few years ago was fire. Ciders have had the reaction as well. Rieslings often have the reaction. But a handful of Yquem, Suduiraut, Climens, tokaji and a lone mosel have not had the reaction. i will now email these estates to see if they use non-native yeast and specifically this S. Cerevisia.

This is the only other case I have heard of similar to me (a 2017 study of a US man who had to go to the UK to get diagnosed). It describes the fire sensation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371212/

Am thinking of ordering all of these yeast strains and do a blind test, as painful as it may be. Interesting, S. Cerevisiae is used more in whites than reds.
https://winemakermag.com/resource/yeast-strains-chart

If I can narrow it down to S. Cerevisiae, this could part of explanation for increased autoimmune disease over the last 20 years or so, per (but a shot in the dark): http://gaia-health.com/conventional-med ... -diseases/
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#2 Post by Anton D » June 9th, 2019, 8:35 pm

There is an easy test for this. I don’t know where you live. If you are near Chio, CA, we will test you for free.

Otherwise see a local board certified allergist and the discussion can continue!

Seriously, free and we’d make you dinner later and drink wine you can tolerate. (Now I hope you live nearby!)

Have you had labs for your autoimmune disorder?

I don’t mean to pry.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#3 Post by Nate Simon » June 9th, 2019, 9:50 pm

I am neither a winemaker nor an allergist.
However, I am almost completely certain that S. cerevisiae is THE yeast used in winemaking, i.e. it is used in making ALL wines. There are many strains, which are thought to have different subtle effects on the wine, but all wine uses this yeast as the primary means of concerting sugar to ethanol.

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#4 Post by Wes Barton » June 9th, 2019, 11:41 pm

Nate Simon wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 9:50 pm
I am neither a winemaker nor an allergist.
However, I am almost completely certain that S. cerevisiae is THE yeast used in winemaking, i.e. it is used in making ALL wines. There are many strains, which are thought to have different subtle effects on the wine, but all wine uses this yeast as the primary means of concerting sugar to ethanol.
Yep. Other species may start a ferm, or be active early on, but they all die off from ethanol toxicity well before a must is dry. The only exception I know of is, apparently, some strains of brettanomyces (not that you could really protect the must from cerevisiae from getting in).

This could be from something sometimes produced by the wine yeast. The only thing I can think of are biogenic amines, which can be produced by yeast under the right/wrong circumstances, but can also be present in wine via other means.

Anyway, best to follow Anton's advice and get tested, then go from there. If you know what's causing it (instead of guessing), you can them strategize.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#5 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 10th, 2019, 1:24 am

Is OP having an elaborate ruse or being just extremely ignorant in regard to wine?

If one were allergic to the metabolites of saccharomyces cerevisiae, one really should abstain from drinking any alcoholic beverages - since S. cerevisiae is basically the only yeast that is used in making them.

Sure, there are tons of yeasts that can produce alcohol, but apart from brettanomyces and a few other rogue yeasts, S. cerevisiae is the only one that is tolerant of alcohol levels higher than ~5% ABV. That means that if you want to make wine, Saccharomyces it is.

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#6 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:48 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:24 am
Is OP having an elaborate ruse or being just extremely ignorant in regard to wine?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#7 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:51 am

Nate Simon wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 9:50 pm
I am neither a winemaker nor an allergist.
However, I am almost completely certain that S. cerevisiae is THE yeast used in winemaking, i.e. it is used in making ALL wines. There are many strains, which are thought to have different subtle effects on the wine, but all wine uses this yeast as the primary means of concerting sugar to ethanol.
It could be species dependent. But if not S Cerevisiae , then it is something else in whites I have yet to work through. Maybe it’s how the fermentation process impacts the yeast.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#8 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:59 am

Anton D wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 8:35 pm
If you are near Chio, CA, we will test you for free
Thanks Anton. I appreciate the sentiment. I assure you I have been tested for a lot of things and in many different ways and if a trip to OH was the answer I’d make it weekly! To give context, I’m going to get an expensive FMT in the UK and am trying to meet the UK doctor who treated the US man (we have minor dialogue but that’s it so far). I have IGE and IGG reactions to many things including Brewers Yeast. The question is what is it about some alcohols, but not all (in the case of many whites/ciders/some beers) that causes instantaneous burning. It may be I am no closer to the answer here. It if it’s species dependent I doubt wineries will share with me their exact purchasing. I should pick up a large swath of SC perhaps to test.. industrial but where is natural SC to be found?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#9 Post by Markus S » June 10th, 2019, 6:18 am

Well the toothache and Rieussec would be from the sugar in it.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#10 Post by John Morris » June 10th, 2019, 6:34 am

I wonder if sulfites might be at least part of the issue. They tend to be higher in white wines, and are often significantly higher in sweet wines, as I understand it. I used to get mild reactions at tastings of German rieslings (stuffed nose), though that's less of an issue now as sulfur levels have been reduced in them.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#11 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 6:42 am

John Morris wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 6:34 am
I wonder if sulfites might be at least part of the issue.
It’s been an idea. Unfortunately, the sulfite levels of whites are higher but not a multiple higher (although sweets can be higher). I haven’t had issues with most botrytized grapes wines I’ve had in the past either. Lastly, using a sulfite wand in an offending white hasn’t cured it. Nor have dried fruit caused such an (acute) reaction.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#12 Post by John Morris » June 10th, 2019, 6:46 am

Yes, sulfites don't seem like a complete explanation. Also, I'm not sure what their levels are in beer.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#13 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 10th, 2019, 7:05 am

John Morris wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 6:46 am
Yes, sulfites don't seem like a complete explanation. Also, I'm not sure what their levels are in beer.
Quite minuscule. Sulfites are never added to beer and the amount that forms during the fermentation is normally in the ballpark of 0-10 ppm.

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#14 Post by Evan Pontoriero » June 10th, 2019, 7:59 am

My bet is on amines, though I did have a rather weird burning reaction to grapes sprayed with Serenade last harvest.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#15 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 8:16 am

Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 7:59 am
My bet is on amines, though I did have a rather weird burning reaction to grapes sprayed with Serenade last harvest.
Thanks Evan.
- Why do you say Amines, and is this something can differ wine-to-wine with any correlation of red to white? Are you thinking histamines generally? Amines is not something I am familiar with.
- What was your reaction to the Serenade on the finished wine in the bottle or earlier in the production process?
- What bummed me about the 2001 Rieussec is that's a 18 year old wine at this point, and the reaction was still there. I had thought perhaps if it was indeed yeast, then the yeast would have broken down over a period of time. E.g., would I have the same reaction to the 2001 50 years from now?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#16 Post by Eric Lundblad » June 10th, 2019, 8:53 am

I agree with Evan that amines might be something to consider. But I'm a bit vague on what your allergy symptoms are tho (i.e. separate from what the underlying cause might be)...so suggesting amines is a bit of a stab in the dark. Anyways, a histamine is an amine...and there are other types of amines, which can occur in wine (and elsewhere). Typically, these result from the secondary (malolactic) fermentation (referred to as ML), and usually when the wine hasn't been inoculated for ML (i.e. ML proceeds 'natively', which is more likely to produce amines).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#17 Post by Todd Hamina » June 10th, 2019, 8:55 am

Are you allergic to copper?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#18 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 8:59 am

Todd Hamina wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 8:55 am
Are you allergic to copper?
Not that I am aware of. Oddly, I feel I can taste tin foil more than the average person.. Eg a food wrapped in aluminum foil will taste a little tinny/off off putting to me, but no pain or anything.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#19 Post by PhillipDube » June 10th, 2019, 9:13 am

It's unlikely that Sc is the culprit if the OP has a worse reaction to whites than reds. Whites are much more likely to have been sterile filtered and therefore had any residual Sc cells removed. Many more reds are bottled unfined and unfiltered and could have some Sc cells floating around. But whites and sweet wines do tend to have more sulfur.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#20 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 9:16 am

PhillipDube wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:13 am
It's unlikely that Sc is the culprit if the OP has a worse reaction to whites than reds. Whites are much more likely to have been sterile filtered and therefore had any residual Sc cells removed.
A few cider mfg who I had reactions to did tell me their wines were sterile filtered. I cannot find the emails however.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#21 Post by Greg Hirson » June 10th, 2019, 9:33 am

S. cerevisiae is the yeast responsible for wine and beer fermentation, but also for bread fermentation. Any issues with bread?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#22 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 9:38 am

No issues with bread, although I have non-celiac gluten tolerance / igg response. The issue here is very different, it is like an immediate dermatological reaction as if you are drinking fire / immediate body ache.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#23 Post by David McMillen » June 10th, 2019, 9:42 am

You don’t have trouble with stinging insect reactions do you? There are cases of wine allergic reactions happening because of the wasps/yellow jackets/hornets that get crushed in the wine press...

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#24 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 9:47 am

David McMillen wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:42 am
You don’t have trouble with stinging insect reactions do you? There are cases of wine allergic reactions happening because of the wasps/yellow jackets/hornets that get crushed in the wine press...
As a child I did, reaction to bee stings. Haven’t been stung by a bee since then as I’m now an urban jungle fellow.. get stung by the cost of gluten free pizza now.

That wouldn’t explain white vs red though.

I really appreciate these ideas. Many are things I have not previously thought of.

Anyone have a cheap mass spectrometer? I could put together a dozen wines i react to and a dozen I don’t. And some pattern may pop up. And we can drink the wines. i was quoted by a doctor though it would be $10k a sample but he didn’t know.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#25 Post by Todd Hamina » June 10th, 2019, 9:55 am

Ok, how about sorbic acid?

My follow up q is: what about avocados and bananas?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#26 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 10:01 am

Todd Hamina wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:55 am
Ok, how about sorbic acid?

My follow up q is: what about avocados and bananas?
I don’t have this reaction to anything else. I can drink vodka fine. Avocados and bananas fine. Some fruits can give me a mild itchy sensation under my chin, but nothing like drinking fire/getting body ache/or a tooth ache.

I don’t know about sorbic acid specifically. But no issues with pickles, syrups, olives etc. like this.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#27 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 10:04 am

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:47 am
David McMillen wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:42 am
You don’t have trouble with stinging insect reactions do you? There are cases of wine allergic reactions happening because of the wasps/yellow jackets/hornets that get crushed in the wine press...
As a child I did, reaction to bee stings. Haven’t been stung by a bee since then as I’m now an urban jungle fellow.. get stung by the cost of gluten free pizza now.

That wouldn’t explain white vs red though.

I really appreciate these ideas. Many are things I have not previously thought of.

Anyone have a cheap mass spectrometer? I could put together a dozen wines i react to and a dozen I don’t. And some pattern may pop up. And we can drink the wines. i was quoted by a doctor though it would be $10k a sample but he didn’t know.
Before tossing out all that cash, have a friend put together a group of wines you react to and wines you don't, then do a blind tasting and see what happens.

Can you tell us the precise sequence of symptoms you have when you drink an offending wine?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#28 Post by YLee » June 10th, 2019, 10:10 am

Are you reacting to certain wines 100% of the time?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#29 Post by Todd Hamina » June 10th, 2019, 10:16 am

Ok, last one. Although illegal in most countries it is still commonly practiced... silver nitrate?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#30 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 10:04 am
Can you tell us the precise sequence of symptoms you have when you drink an offending wine?
In the throat its an immediate burning sensation. Can't even get it down. To the extents a midly burning sensation I can try to force it down. Thereafter comes what must be a blood-borne response: throbbing muscle pain (whole body, but mainly the back) and if particularly bad in the teeth (from within, like a throbbing sensation). Rapidly peaks and and then fades, and goes away after 20-30 minutes entirely.

The study of the US fellow who traveled to UK is very similar to me. Although I don’t respond to all alcohols that way like he does. Eg I can have vodka and look forward to some reds I have lined up.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#31 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 10:20 am

YLee wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 10:10 am
Are you reacting to certain wines 100% of the time?
Great question. I haven't done a good job here of recording every wine/cider and going for seconds. I do suspect there was some variance in Angry Orchard ciders for creating the reaction versus not (sample set of 2). I have started to record offending wines, but largely eliminated the whites to success, and then the 2001 Riuessec hit me. I have more of the 2001s (such a good wine and I have hope I can drink it in 20 years), I should open one again. But I should buy it from a different retailer I think to have a different lot/batch (is that a thing, or would any other wine of the vintage suffice)?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#32 Post by larry schaffer » June 10th, 2019, 11:08 am

Such an interesting thread - and one that is certainly thought provoking.

It would be most helpful to understand the specific wines that affect you - you mentioned the one red, but which specific whites? I also like the idea of trying them blind to see.

One last thing to try - and this may sound strange - but have someone take one or two of the whites that you react negatively to and put red food coloring in them to make them appear like a 'red wine' and see if the same reactions occur.

A lot of great points made by many here - but one comment about SC and white wines to consider that others haven't (and I personally don't think it's them but . . .) - the attributes of the yeast (whether filtered or not) will be more 'prominent' in most white wines versus reds since whites don't seem to see as much time in barrel . . .

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#33 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 11:16 am

Not meant to be a complete answer, but also review burning mouth syndrome, which can have a wild course...https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20350911

That doesn't fit all your issues, but you also mentioned some sort of autoimmune issue, which may magnify things.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#34 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 11:50 am

larry schaffer wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 11:08 am
It would be most helpful to understand the specific wines that affect you - you mentioned the one red, but which specific whites? I also like the idea of trying them blind to see. One last thing to try - and this may sound strange - but have someone take one or two of the whites that you react negatively to and put red food coloring in them to make them appear like a 'red wine' and see if the same reactions occur.

... the attributes of the yeast (whether filtered or not) will be more 'prominent' in most white wines versus reds since whites don't seem to see as much time in barrel . . .
1) I should have put together a list prior to posting. I have a long list of wines that haven't impacted me, however. Will need to spend some time to put together the list of wines that did impact me.
2) I guarantee this is not a blind vs. blind mental thing. It's not a question of nuance etc. It's a fire in your esophagus or not!
3) That's interesting on the yeast! Perhaps there is a correlation for the wines I have allergies to how they are made, steel vs. barrel and length of time in barrel
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#35 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 12:24 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 11:50 am
larry schaffer wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 11:08 am
It would be most helpful to understand the specific wines that affect you - you mentioned the one red, but which specific whites? I also like the idea of trying them blind to see. One last thing to try - and this may sound strange - but have someone take one or two of the whites that you react negatively to and put red food coloring in them to make them appear like a 'red wine' and see if the same reactions occur.

... the attributes of the yeast (whether filtered or not) will be more 'prominent' in most white wines versus reds since whites don't seem to see as much time in barrel . . .
1) I should have put together a list prior to posting. I have a long list of wines that haven't impacted me, however. Will need to spend some time to put together the list of wines that did impact me.
2) I guarantee this is not a blind vs. blind mental thing. It's not a question of nuance etc. It's a fire in your esophagus or not!
3) That's interesting on the yeast! Perhaps there is a correlation for the wines I have allergies to how they are made, steel vs. barrel and length of time in barrel
It could as complex as whether or not you had been eating, what you ate, fat content in the food...a zillion things.

If it's esophageal pain...have you been checked for GERD, esophagitis, etc?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#36 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 12:35 pm

It’s in the wine Anton. Although I don’t want to minimize other variables.. there is something specific in whites/ciders wines that crushes me and is unique to those wines.

I do have eosinophilic esophagitis. But that doesn’t play for the reds I’ve had. And I’ve done many many tests. Doctors don’t even believe in this reaction to wine and the 2017 study I posted was the only datapoint I’ve found for something similar (which the doctor noted as well). Unfortunately this doctor is in Spain when I will be in the UK.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#37 Post by Evan Pontoriero » June 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

AFA Serenade it was during grape sampling. It was pretty severe and scary, kind of like anaphylaxis. I thought I may have ruined the wine for me to drink but I don't seem to have a reaction to the wine as I tried a bottle last night without problem, it was delicious.

There are many different amines that could cause problems. Putracine, Cadavarine, lots of Tyramine in bananas and cheese. It would surprise me if they larger European wines since I believe there is a low amine requirement that we have no law for here other than for export to EU.

Looking closer at the symptoms, they don't look like amine problems per se. I know that tannins can cause temporomandibular pain because of the saliva glands going nuts. I've also had some anecdotal evidence that high, late acid adds can cause somewhat similar effects.

Add another wild datapoint. I had a Russian River Zinfandel about 3 months ago that I reacted to. Was a wine trade in the tasting room. It was a AVA bottling, tasting both green and overripe at the same time making me think it was possibly a recovery effort. I only had wine so it surely was the wine but after the first glass I broke out in hives from my knees to my neck. I've never had hives and have not had them since and I've had a lot of wine. Was inside the whole day so that eliminated bug bites etc.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#38 Post by David McMillen » June 10th, 2019, 1:15 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 12:35 pm
It’s in the wine Anton. Although I don’t want to minimize other variables.. there is something specific in whites/ciders wines that crushes me and is unique to those wines.

I do have eosinophilic esophagitis. But that doesn’t play for the reds I’ve had. And I’ve done many many tests. Doctors don’t even believe in this reaction to wine and the 2017 study I posted was the only datapoint I’ve found for something similar (which the doctor noted as well). Unfortunately this doctor is in Spain when I will be in the UK.
If you have EoE that might be what is causing your trouble. Sulfites usually don’t cause IgE mediated reactions so I don’t think that’s the case. There are allergens in grapes that are also found in grass pollen and sometimes these will cause trouble but usually not in wine. Maybe you should use flovent consistently for at least a few months if you're not already?

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#39 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 1:20 pm

Even without a verified test, the plan of action would be the same...avoidance. I can see where having a specific answer would be comforting, but your drink/not drink list would remain idiosyncratic and arbitray - there's no solid way to predict your tolerance in a situation with wine you haven't encountered.

The tests mentioned in the article could easily be done in your home town, most likely!

Has your eosinophilic esophagitis ever been treated?
Last edited by Anton D on June 10th, 2019, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#40 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm
AFA Serenade it was during grape sampling. It was pretty severe and scary, kind of like anaphylaxis. I thought I may have ruined the wine for me to drink but I don't seem to have a reaction to the wine as I tried a bottle last night without problem, it was delicious.

There are many different amines that could cause problems. Putracine, Cadavarine, lots of Tyramine in bananas and cheese. It would surprise me if they larger European wines since I believe there is a low amine requirement that we have no law for here other than for export to EU.

Looking closer at the symptoms, they don't look like amine problems per se. I know that tannins can cause temporomandibular pain because of the saliva glands going nuts. I've also had some anecdotal evidence that high, late acid adds can cause somewhat similar effects.

Add another wild datapoint. I had a Russian River Zinfandel about 3 months ago that I reacted to. Was a wine trade in the tasting room. It was a AVA bottling, tasting both green and overripe at the same time making me think it was possibly a recovery effort. I only had wine so it surely was the wine but after the first glass I broke out in hives from my knees to my neck. I've never had hives and have not had them since and I've had a lot of wine. Was inside the whole day so that eliminated bug bites etc.
The world can be so capricious! Dang!

Side note: do you take antacids?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#41 Post by John Morris » June 10th, 2019, 1:28 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 7:19 pm
This is the only other case I have heard of similar to me (a 2017 study of a US man who had to go to the UK to get diagnosed). It describes the fire sensation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371212/
Why do you say he had to go to the UK to be diagnosed?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#42 Post by Wes Barton » June 10th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 4:59 am
I should pick up a large swath of SC perhaps to test.. industrial but where is natural SC to be found?
SC lives on everyone's skin (and internals) and all over the place. It's virtually impossible to keep various strains from making it into a ferment. The different strains have strengths and weaknesses, so you can find sea changes of what yeast is dominant at what phase of a ferment, and it can easily vary by fermenter of the same wine, and year-to-year. If you start wild, something will take over. (SC population on the grapes ranges from zero to about one in a million of the yeast cells.) If you nuke the must with SO2 to kill everything, then inoculate, you'll still most likely have another strain take over when the ever changing conditions get to a point it has the competitive advantage, then another may take over later, and so on.

Natural/wild/ambient SC that's capable of finishing a ferm (ethanol is a toxin to all of them, and tolerance varies greatly) is most likely an escaped commercial strain. Commercial strains are just ones that have been isolated for specific sets of advantages.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#43 Post by Wes Barton » June 10th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 9:38 am
The issue here is very different, it is like an immediate dermatological reaction as if you are drinking fire / immediate body ache.
I have an occasional reaction to some wine, beer, etc. It's enough that I feel it on the first sip. Being aware of the warning sign is key, so I know to spit it out and not revisit or I'll have a migraine.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#44 Post by Wes Barton » June 10th, 2019, 2:32 pm

What about aldehydes? Another complicated subject with a family of compounds highly involved in wine. "Aldehydes are known sensitizers for small populations of humans and serve to cause chemically induced allergic reactions. The effects of these reactions can be dramatic at rather low concentrations."
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#45 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 3:31 pm

John Morris wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:28 pm
Sh@n A wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 7:19 pm
This is the only other case I have heard of similar to me (a 2017 study of a US man who had to go to the UK to get diagnosed). It describes the fire sensation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371212/
Why do you say he had to go to the UK to be diagnosed?
There was an another article that I found that said the patient was from the U.S. (I recall Minnesota) and the lead doctor is in the UK. I myself have told many doctors of this reaction in the past and none believe me, so its reasonable to me he had to find a doctor to diagnose him -- didn't need to be in the UK but this doctor is in the UK. I had googled for hours pre-2017 prior to this study coming out, and found nothing.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#46 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:20 pm
Has your eosinophilic esophagitis ever been treated?
Doctors split on it being GERD or autoimmune (I suspect they are related). Antacids can reduce it 99%. I have been able to control it by going on elimination diets. My bloodwork did not get worse when I consumed vodka and red wine while on the elimination diet, but I am thinking of doing a more extended version of the elimination diet post the FMT I plan to do in July.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#47 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 2:32 pm
What about aldehydes? Another complicated subject with a family of compounds highly involved in wine. "Aldehydes are known sensitizers for small populations of humans and serve to cause chemically induced allergic reactions. The effects of these reactions can be dramatic at rather low concentrations."
Are they more prominent in white vs red?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#48 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 3:32 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:20 pm
Has your eosinophilic esophagitis ever been treated?
Doctors split on it being GERD or autoimmune (I suspect they are related). Antacids can reduce it 99%. I have been able to control it by going on elimination diets. My bloodwork did not get worse when I consumed vodka and red wine while on the elimination diet, but I am thinking of doing a more extended version of the elimination diet post the FMT I plan to do in July.
How did you determine what to avoid?

Did you ever spend time on an antacid?

Doctors may seem to be split because some people get if from plain old GERD and others have an allergic/immunologic component to it.

Are there any wines that produce the negative result when you drink them again? I.e. is this a 'repeatable' finding?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#49 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:44 pm

I have done a bad job of documenting the incidents over the years (half built excel spread sheets, changing phones/computers, and fatigue). Below are incidents I have some notes on.

7/4/15 Sunny Republic Beach Blond Pacific Pale Ale 4.4% Hoppy Beer off draft
Email correspondence with MFG said no additives used
They suggested dirty pub lines

7/2/16 Schramsberg champagne, French Laundry cuvee
Purchased from French Laundry in 2011-12 when I did not have a reaction
Straight fire this one
Email inquiry with the Domaine stated:
The amount of yeast does not differ between bottles. The majority of whites and ciders are sterile filtered which removes the all of yeast used for fermentation. The charmant processed sparkling wines are also sterile filtered and carbonated with CO2 which are usually in the lower price points. In regards to methode champenoise sparkling wines, the yeast is removed through riddling. The yeast along with a riddling aid (sand) is removed from the bottle at the time of disgorging. This process removes all of the visual yeast. The remaining yeast are so few or fermentation would occur after the dosage was added. We use one strain for all of our secondary fermentations.
(I just asked what the strain was June 2019)

Thanksgiving 2016 - Higher End Spatlese (cannot find receive or photo)
50/50 retailer may have record in store (not on their online account)

Sometime in 2017 - Angry Orchard Pear Cider
I had Angry Orchard in 2016 without a reaction, though it was Pear Cider
This second one crushed me with the body ache

Sometime in 2017 - Alteni di Brassica Langhe 2014
burning sensation throughout my esophagus to the stomach, and a subsequent body ache
(on less than half a glass)

8/8/17 Docs Draft Original Hard Apple Cider: significant reaction
8/8/17 South Hill Cider Bluegrass: Stronger than Docs Cider

5/29/18 Catena Zapata (2010 Malbec Cabernet Blend?)
The only red I can recall that gave me a similar feeling

2019 - Assorted Riesling/champagne sips = reaction
2019 - 2 natural whites in Paris = no reaction

May 2019 - 2001 Rieussec Sauternes
Strong reaction. Body ache, etc.
Winery informs the only non-native yeast they use is S. Cervisea

No reactions to other white sweet wines: Suduirat (various vintages), Yquem (two vintages), Climens (one vintage), Royal Tokaji (multiple vintages), 2-3 other Tokaji.



The hit rate on Champagnes (< 5 sample set) seems to be 50%+
The hit rate on whites (< 10 sample set) seems to be 50%+
The day I went and got 6 ciders (thinking Gluten maybe the issue?) the hit rate was 50%+
No reactions to 250+ reds tasted in the past year or so.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#50 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:51 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 3:43 pm
How did you determine what to avoid?
Did you ever spend time on an antacid?
Doctors may seem to be split because some people get if from plain old GERD and others have an allergic/immunologic component to it.
Are there any wines that produce the negative result when you drink them again? I.e. is this a 'repeatable' finding?
1. I ate a hypoallergenic diet (white rice, chicken/lamb, salt pepper, and lemon juice) for 60 days and then reintroduced foods. Another time I did the GAPS intro diet for about 60 days. Both times the symptoms go away, but these are very restrictive diets. I guess what could be interesting, is taking a repeat offender wine that creates burning throat sensation, and then try it after the elimination diet (tie the reaction to an overall level of inflammation).
2. Only when Doctors (Weill Cornell) were trying to determine the cause of the esophagitis. As they outlined it, if you take antacid and the esophagitis goes away, then you GERD caused esophagitis. As my esophagitis went away 99% but not 100%, they were split as to the cause. Given I see a lot of esophagitis in younger folks whose immediate relatives have autoimmune disease, I suspect the espophagitis is auto-immune related (the view is allergy is different than autoimmune). The doctors disagree with this causal observation (but cannot disprove it).
3. On the repeat effect, I need to do this. I need to work with the Rieussec since that's the most recent wine, available in varied vintages, and I have more of the 2001 (same stock). And I'm sure I can find folks to indulge in a vertical of Rieussec truly in the name of science. In fact, I may try to do this a week from now, ahead of the FMT.
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