It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

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Dan Kravitz
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#51 Post by Dan Kravitz » June 11th, 2019, 6:09 pm

Greg Piatagorski,

I am calling you out.

IIRC, you were a semi-regular on the old Parker board and were eventually banned for your intemperate rants. I note that among them was incessant complaints that Domaine Pegau Chateauneuf-du-Pape (which I import) was fraudulently labeling their wines as having 14% alcohol, when in fact the alcohol level was higher. That may well be true, but who wants to read about it dozens of times, and (in the context of wine board members), who cares? I have communicated with several thousand people about Pegau since I started importing it 30 years ago. Perhaps a few dozen have asked about alcohol levels. Nobody complained about them, or about the labeling, except you.

We are both apparently wine professionals. I take notes on most (not all) of the wines I taste, especially if they are new to me. I am not well-organized enough to easily dig out the specific notes I have on the Georgian wines I’ve tasted, especially as they mostly go back more than 10 years.

Your posts are almost always marked by rage, sarcasm, belittling of other posters, and assumed superiority. You have made repeated posts about the inferiority of Georgian wines on this thread that I started.

I hate censorship, so I won’t ask you to ‘put up or shut up’. I admit I was relieved when you were banned from the Parker board, but if I had been a moderator, it would not have happened.

I’m just asking you to put up:
Post your detailed notes on all of the Georgian wines you have tasted in the past ten years. Include your scores, as well as your scores for the Bogle wines you compare them to.

If you can’t do this, please have the decency and courtesy to reply that your comments were not based on actual knowledge.

Dan Kravitz
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Russell Faulkner
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#52 Post by Russell Faulkner » June 11th, 2019, 7:03 pm

Greg’s views on the current state of the quality wines produced in Georgia are invalid or irrelevant.

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Otto Forsberg
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#53 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 11th, 2019, 9:22 pm

GregP wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 4:01 pm
What does fermentation vessel have to do with only resulting in dry wines? Unreal.
If you really don't know and understand the basics of vinification even that much, and your reaction is at the level of a 10-year old besserwisser, I guess we don't need to push the argument any further. Thanks for the rant.

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Chris Seiber
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#54 Post by Chris Seiber » June 11th, 2019, 11:46 pm

Who would have thought the most acrimonious thread of the year would be about Georgian wine? I’m amazed you could get five replies to a thread on this topic.

Carry on.

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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#55 Post by GregP » June 12th, 2019, 12:29 am

Dan, you are beyond pity. You, of all people, have been openly lying to TTB, IRS and consumers. For decades. Just read through the thread again. Responses start with "No, no way", then quickly switch to "well, yes, most are RS driven", to then quickly leading to a best of excuse of "but they are only sold to Russia". Right... What else is there left to discuss. How's that 13.9% label, have you finally run out of it by now, I recall you pre-printed millions worth for the next few decades, as you claimed in your excuse?

As for your really foggy, and non-factual, recollection of why Parker wanted to get rid of me, go back and read the threads in which he decided to pick on me (brett, filtration, etc) for whatever reason in his drunken mind (Sokolin put it to good use at the time), last one over a particular Pinot Noir newcomer where Parker was caught with his pants down (again). I can easily rehash it, from memory, but you being your usual self can't help it, but spit lies out. Same way you have been to TTB and IRS and consumers. I told you before, keep playing with that fire, there is no statute of limitations on financial graft, with heavy penalties as well as loss of license involved, and one of these days you will seriously piss off someone you really don't want to with your on-going lies and misdirections.

Re-read Parker's threads of those days and at least try to learn facts. Make an effort, its all good. And yes, I usually post in a very direct style, never liked PC and waste of time it leads to, but IMO its way better than openly lying to people, as you do.

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As for donkey piss, as the wines are called sometimes in Russia... Like I said, your money and your choice. You guys have entire market to yourself, you should be happy. Oh, and I do not keep detailed notes, though can recall tastings from years back, entire lineups at times (when they do not extend into 20-30) and their winning order at the end. No scores, ever, those who know me and taste with me will tell you I never assign scores to any wine, scores are extremely arbitrary and someone's 82 is another man's 94. CT has plenty of reviews with "brett, some off notes on the nose, not enough acidity/complexity/flavor, too much oak, short finish. 92 POINTS".

I did come across some Mukuzanis that were just OK, being dry, as I already posted above, but cannot recall any Kindzmarauli, Saperavi or any other varietal/region that were not dreadful, so taking and recollecting notes in such a case is actually very easy. Yes, I'll take Bogle all day long. But scores, to me, mean nothing. You assign scores, good for you. Sounds like you guys are trying your best to validate your palates. No RS => 60% RS driven => many/most are RS => but sold only to Russia. And I am the one tasked with validating my POV. Irony, thick and heavy, by the truck load.

Way back in late '70s (and through early '90s) there was a restaurant on Brighton Beach, Kavkaz. As one can imagine, Georgian cuisine. One of my good friends was "family" to owners. I spent way too much time at the place, some great memories of course, so my familiarity with Georgian wines goes way back, back to the days when quality control in Soviet Union used to mean something and people went to prison for ignoring it (these days domestic cheese there often carries stickers with "contains 50% milk products" for example, hmmm, OK, let's call it cheese).

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Those TNs above, and scores attached, why would anyone include a Russian made wine, and with the highest score to boot? While questioning why I dislike Georgian wines. Well, you yourself provided proof that even Russian made wines are better than Georgian in attached tasting notes. How original of you.

As for Georgian food not being spicy, there is spicy and there is hot. Pepperoni is spicy, full on Korean/Thai/Szechwan dishes are hot. Turkish food is more similar to Armenian in its use of spices, Georgian uses way more fresh garlic, and cayenne in spice mixes, big difference. Their national sauce, adjika, which goes with all meat dishes including chicken, cayenne. Their national soup, kharcho, well, that same cayenne again. Lobio? Cayenne. Hope you get the drift. I cook Georgian food at home, as much as I dislike their wines I do love their cuisine. Though cook it less frequently these days with more of Korean/Thai/Chinese in the mix.

Ебалом щелкать может каждый, но ты все равно еблан.
G r e g P i a t i g o r s k i
I T B - i s k a r a n u w i n e

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Otto Forsberg
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#56 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 12th, 2019, 1:18 am

GregP wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 12:29 am
I did come across some Mukuzanis that were just OK, being dry, as I already posted above, but cannot recall any Kindzmarauli, Saperavi or any other varietal/region that were not dreadful
What are you going on about? Mukuzani IS Saperavi.

And traditional Georgian wines are dry. There are tons of village appellation wines, especially in Kakheti (Khvanchakara, Kindzmarauli, Ojaleshi, etc.) that are made in semi-dry and semi-sweet styles, and while those still represent a somewhat significant amount of the total production, the amounts are diminishing and they are (and have been) mainly exported to Russia and to (former) Eastern bloc countries with large Russian population. Furthermore, basically all of these sweeter styles of wines were invented in the 20th century and they really don't represent the local traditional style - they are just wines that became popular under the communist rule.

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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#57 Post by Mikko R » June 12th, 2019, 4:06 am

Georgian wines are dead at retail.
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#58 Post by Wes Barton » June 12th, 2019, 2:48 pm

Greg, if you want to actually try a modern, clean, dry Georgian wine, don't go looking at a frigging Russian deli! Those are bought to appeal to Russian emigres for their comfort and familiarity. In other words, exactly what you already know you won't like.

We have several reputable Bay Area merchants who carry good ones. They've tasted before buying. Yes, a lot of that will be hipster/natural/orange. You can use your own common sense and avoid those.

You're quite familiar with the workday brownbag tastings. All sorts of wines make it into those and people tend to steer clear of the too easy to guess. Most and probably all of the other winemakers in the facility you work out of have had Georgian wine they thought was good or better.
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Dan Kravitz
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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#59 Post by Dan Kravitz » June 12th, 2019, 4:39 pm

This is the last time I respond to a post by Greg Piatigorski.

You say that I am beyond pity. I feel the same for you.

FWIW: I have never printed any labels for any wines from Pegau or Laurence Feraud. I do not discuss alcohol levels with her. You accuse me of lying and cheating. Do you think I would jeopardize my business of 35 years save additional tax of about two bucks a case on one thousand cases a year??? I repeat, I have never printed any labels with alcohol levels I know to be wrong. The wines from my own vineyard are usually about 15% and are labeled as such. For those wines, I see the lab reports and then order the labels. They always correspond (for simplicity, I usually just use 15% even if they are 14.7 or 15.2... as you know, this is legal.

I have discussed with the relevant people the reason that you were banned from the Parker board. It was the ranting, incessant arrogance and negativity, the hate you spewed, and had nothing to do with your wine knowledge, which apparently (except for Georgian wine) is substantial. What a pity it isn't directed towards writing positive comments about wines you admire. Again, you say I am "beyond pity". I feel very sorry for you, having left Ukraine for California and being filled with so much hate. Telling me to read "real news" when I state that Russia is not a socialist country... I stand by the statement. It is an autocratic capitalist kleptocracy, which has nothing to do with socialism.

I deeply regret that you posted on this thread, but it is a free country and this board is admirably open. I am very happy to be a member and except for extremely rare circumstances like this, I enjoy the time spent here. Last but not least, you say that scores mean nothing. OK, how about posting on the specific Georgian wines you have tried with your tasting notes and no numbers? Or even on other wines that you have enjoyed, but are not part of your business. Or even wines that you enjoy in which you have a commercial interest, as long as that interest is disclosed.

Thank you.

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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#60 Post by Steve Slatcher » June 13th, 2019, 8:05 am

I was at a tasting of around 50 Georgian wines yesterday. Mixed quality in the wines - some very good, down to a couple that reeked of brett.

Very few semi-sweet red wines, but one of them was particularly attractive. It was a Georgian Royal Wine Kindzmaruli (2018) with lots of good fruit and, critically, plenty of acidity to offset the sweetness, in the way you often get with sweet Kabinett and Spätlese German wines. It also had a fair amount of tannin which also helped balance some of the sweetness. The overall impression was of a wine that was slightly off dry.

Incidentally Georgian sweet red wines are not necessarily the result of fermentations stopped very early - there are also higher quality versions from late-harvested grapes. I had a taster of one last time I was in Georgia. It did not impress me, but then I am usually very fussy about sweet wines.

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Re: It's in Georgia (nation not state) - what is it?

#61 Post by Ethan H » June 14th, 2019, 5:06 am

GregP wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 12:29 am
Those TNs above, and scores attached, why would anyone include a Russian made wine, and with the highest score to boot? While questioning why I dislike Georgian wines. Well, you yourself provided proof that even Russian made wines are better than Georgian in attached tasting notes. How original of you.
For the record, I posted tasting notes on Russian wines in reply to your apparent slander of the entire Krasnodar wine region as a sea of vines whose wines are adulterated by Moldovan plonk. I never suggested they are better or worse than Georgian wines (it's a real apples-and-oranges comparison). For good measure, I include below a tasting note on a Georgian wine I had a few days ago.
  • 2016 Shilda Winery Tsinandali - Georgia, Kakheti, Tsinandali (6/12/2019)
    Pale straw. Attractive nose of lemon & grapefruit, fresh quince, and a slight floral note (lavender soap?). Medium body, medium acidity but a pronounced sense of stoniness & minerality together with citrus and herbal notes on the midpalate and finish. According to the label, this is a blend of rkatseteli and mtsvane. Reminds me of a Chignin, and indeed the wine is what the Georgians currently seem to call "European" in style. Very refreshing and would be good alone or with lighter fare including shellfish. (88 pts.)
GregP wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 12:29 am
As for Georgian food not being spicy, there is spicy and there is hot. Pepperoni is spicy, full on Korean/Thai/Szechwan dishes are hot. Turkish food is more similar to Armenian in its use of spices, Georgian uses way more fresh garlic, and cayenne in spice mixes, big difference. Their national sauce, adjika, which goes with all meat dishes including chicken, cayenne. Their national soup, kharcho, well, that same cayenne again. Lobio? Cayenne. Hope you get the drift. I cook Georgian food at home, as much as I dislike their wines I do love their cuisine. Though cook it less frequently these days with more of Korean/Thai/Chinese in the mix.
Adjika is no spicier/hotter than arrabiata or puttanesca sauce (and is less so than diavolo) so perhaps you also consider southern Italian cuisine to be "spicy", not to mention Spanish cuisine which also has its share of garlic and chili peppers. That's fine, but I don't. Also as you must know, adjika is not the national Georgian sauce, it is a national Georgian sauce, along with satsebeli and tkemali (which are both less "spicy").
GregP wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 12:29 am
Ебалом щелкать может каждый, но ты все равно еблан.
Very classy to call me, in effect, a sh!thead. As my six-year old would say, от еблана слышал!
H*e*I*n*Z (like the catsup)

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