What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

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J a y H a c k
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What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#1 Post by J a y H a c k » June 6th, 2019, 10:44 am

If someone wants to try a top of the line red burgundy at a ridiculous price to see what all the fuss is about but doesn't want to pay the DRC ticket, what producer should he look at? Asking for a friend. Really!

Oops, typo fixed.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#2 Post by scamhi » June 6th, 2019, 10:49 am

Rousseau Chambertin or Clos de Beze.
Vogue Musigny
Roumier Bonnes Mares
Mugnier Amoureuses
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#3 Post by Ed Gonzales » June 6th, 2019, 10:59 am

domaine serene out of oregon. it beat out drc multiple times.



what suzanne said along with dujac clos de la roche, roumier amoureuses, grivot richebourg, cathiard malconsorts, mugnier musigny, etc.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#4 Post by Peter Hirsch » June 6th, 2019, 11:04 am

yep. Similar to above suggestions:

Rousseau (Chambertin or Beze)
Roumier (Bonnes Mares or Amoureuses)
Mugnier (Musigny or Amoureuses)
Dujac (CDLR or CSD)
Cathiard RSV
Fourrier 'Griotte'
Rouget 'Parantoux'
Meo 'Richebourg'

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#5 Post by J a y H a c k » June 6th, 2019, 11:16 am

Suzanne - What was that Richebourg you gave me in Chicago?
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#6 Post by Chris Seiber » June 6th, 2019, 11:20 am

Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:59 am
domaine serene out of oregon. it beat out drc multiple times
[rofl.gif]

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#7 Post by B. Buzzini » June 6th, 2019, 11:24 am

You don't "find" Burgundy...it will find you! [tumbleweed.gif]
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#8 Post by Eric Egan » June 6th, 2019, 11:38 am

From what's not yet been mentioned; from recent vintages I would go for La Romanee (Liger-Belair), Cros-Parantoux (Rouget) or maybe Meo-Camuzet's Richebourg. Or Leroy if they're that way inclined.

For older wines there's always Jayer...

Ed. yep - I see that some of these were already mentioned...
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#9 Post by Jay Miller » June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am

Aside from the excellent suggestions above you might try Liger Belair. My experience is limited to their VR Reignots.

edited to add: I see Eric ninja'ed me on the LB suggestion.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#10 Post by Gordon Fitz » June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am

LeRoy

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#11 Post by alan weinberg » June 6th, 2019, 11:43 am

not to be Nathan here, but many of the wines mentioned are as stupidly priced as DRC now is. I got an offer for 99 Roumier Bonnes Mares today for $4000 per bottle. I paid about $110 on release.

If I were buying: Arnoux Suchots. Grand cru quality.

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#12 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 6th, 2019, 11:45 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:44 am
If someone wants to try a top of the line red burgundy at a ridiculous price to see what all the fuss is about but doesn't want to pay the DRC ticket, what producer should he look at? Asking for a friend. Really!
What do you mean by the DRC ticket? Any DRC or just the Romanee Conti?
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#13 Post by scamhi » June 6th, 2019, 11:47 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:16 am
Suzanne - What was that Richebourg you gave me in Chicago?
that was a magnum of 2000 Denis Mugneret Richebourg- he's not a player.

adding the Mugneret Gibourg Ruchottes as a generally great bottle of burgundy
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#14 Post by Ed Gonzales » June 6th, 2019, 11:49 am

i purposely didn't include liger-belair and leroy because they are on par with drc in terms of pricing
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#15 Post by Jay Miller » June 6th, 2019, 11:51 am

Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:49 am
i purposely didn't include liger-belair and leroy because they are on par with drc in terms of pricing
Good point.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#16 Post by J a y H a c k » June 6th, 2019, 11:56 am

Jay Miller wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am
. . . you might try . . .
Do I look stupid? Don't answer that. I said I was asking for a friend and I really meant it. He's general counsel of a financial institution many of you have heard of. his wife, on the other hand, is more sensible and loves Saxum.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#17 Post by J a y H a c k » June 6th, 2019, 11:59 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:45 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:44 am
If someone wants to try a top of the line red burgundy at a ridiculous price to see what all the fuss is about but doesn't want to pay the DRC ticket, what producer should he look at? Asking for a friend. Really!
What do you mean by the DRC ticket? Any DRC or just the Romanee Conti?
I don't know. He asked me about Domaine Lamarche Grand Rue GC instead of unspecified DRC, which I knew nothing about, so we agreed to ask the question in the form I posed it.
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#18 Post by Ed Gonzales » June 6th, 2019, 12:01 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:56 am
Jay Miller wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am
. . . you might try . . .
Do I look stupid? Don't answer that. I said I was asking for a friend and I really meant it. He's general counsel of a financial institution many of you have heard of. his wife, on the other hand, is more sensible and loves Saxum.
in that case, start him off with fourrier



[wink.gif]
ed s @ n

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#19 Post by mark rudner » June 6th, 2019, 12:04 pm

jay
from all the years on the boards you really need help with this one?
the answers all seem pretty obvious unless you have a significantly different/lower price point in mind in which case maybe give a cap?

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#20 Post by Greg K » June 6th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 12:01 pm
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:56 am
Jay Miller wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am
. . . you might try . . .
Do I look stupid? Don't answer that. I said I was asking for a friend and I really meant it. He's general counsel of a financial institution many of you have heard of. his wife, on the other hand, is more sensible and loves Saxum.
in that case, start him off with fourrier



[wink.gif]
If there's any Fourrier you'd like to give up cheap, let me know [snort.gif]
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#21 Post by Gerhard P. » June 6th, 2019, 1:06 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:59 am

I don't know. He asked me about Domaine Lamarche Grand Rue GC instead of unspecified DRC, which I knew nothing about, so we agreed to ask the question in the form I posed it.
I wouldn´t take La Grande Rue ... it can be quite good, but no match for a lot of other wines ...

I could second:
Rousseau Chambertin or Clos de Beze (but please a vintage close to maturity, maybe 1990 or 1991)
Mugnier Musigny (1999 or 2002)
Dujac (CDLR or CSD) 1990/91 or 1999
Cathiard RSV (2002 !)
Rouget Cros Parantoux (1999, 2001, 2002)
La Romanee (Liger-Belair) 2002 ... or 2007 (great now!), or Vosne "Aux Reignots" 2002/05/07
Leroy - why not Vosne Les Beaux-Monts 1992 !
Hudelot-Noellat Richebourg 1991 (!)
Ponsot Clos de la Roche 2002 (!)
...
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#22 Post by Anton D » June 6th, 2019, 1:27 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:20 am
Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:59 am
domaine serene out of oregon. it beat out drc multiple times
[rofl.gif]
Marcassin pinot noir. It is DRC. Ask Michael Boradbent!
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#23 Post by Howard Cooper » June 6th, 2019, 1:52 pm

Truchot Clos de la Roche
Mugneret-Gibourg Echezeaux
Hudelot-Noellat Richebourg (richer) or Romanee St. Vivant (more seductive)
Ponsot Clos de la Roche
Musigny by Roumier, Mugnier or Drouhin
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#24 Post by Mike Grammer » June 6th, 2019, 2:14 pm

Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 12:01 pm
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:56 am
Jay Miller wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:40 am
. . . you might try . . .
Do I look stupid? Don't answer that. I said I was asking for a friend and I really meant it. He's general counsel of a financial institution many of you have heard of. his wife, on the other hand, is more sensible and loves Saxum.
in that case, start him off with fourrier



[wink.gif]
No, no, get some pricing, have him pay you, THEN get the Fourrier and buy some good stuff with the rest [grin.gif]

Cecile Tremblay's Echezeaux? I thought about mentioning the Ponsot.
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#25 Post by Kelly Walker » June 6th, 2019, 2:30 pm

Does your friend have experience with quality red Burgundy? If not he has no reference point. Maybe better to recommend a really good Burgundy and a great Burgundy. Then maybe he can experience “what all the fuss is about.”
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#26 Post by R. Frankel » June 6th, 2019, 2:33 pm

I think this is a perfectly reasonable question. My only issue is lack of clarity around how much the friend wants to spend. DRC (other than RC) is $1500 (Echezeaux in a lesser vintage) to $5k+ (La Tache in a good vintage) and beyond. Roughly. Most of the suggest here are in the $1500-$3000 range.

So what's the friend's budget?
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#27 Post by Joshua Kates » June 6th, 2019, 2:45 pm

scamhi wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:47 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:16 am
Suzanne - What was that Richebourg you gave me in Chicago?
that was a magnum of 2000 Denis Mugneret Richebourg- he's not a player.

adding the Mugneret Gibourg Ruchottes as a generally great bottle of burgundy
Of course, you're right Suzanne, but I think Denis' Richebourgs are the real deal, though I like them with a bit more age--the '98 was a beauty and I have a few '95's I'm holding. This would be the way I would go for Jay's "friend" (just kidding, Jay). I would score some GC's, preferably from the 90's, 90, 91, 93, but 96 or 98 can work from solid producers, but not the over the top ones here mentioned, running approx $150-350: Jadot, Laurent, G. Lignier, D. Mugneret are all possibilities: Bonnes Mares (had a '98 from Laurent recently that was over the top good), or Clos St Denis (G. Lignier comes to mind); Jadot's Clos St Jacques would also the be in there. None of these are DRC, of which I have only ever had dribs and drabs, or Leroy, but I think the difference a great red Burgundy cru makes really comes through in these wines, if well-stored, ready to go, etc. Not like any other wine I've ever tasted...so, yeah, I've got the bug :)

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#28 Post by alan weinberg » June 6th, 2019, 2:55 pm

M-M makes a less costly excellent Richebourg. Or maybe a Ponsot Clos de la Roche?

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#29 Post by M. Dildine » June 6th, 2019, 3:07 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:43 am
not to be Nathan here, but many of the wines mentioned are as stupidly priced as DRC now is. I got an offer for 99 Roumier Bonnes Mares today for $4000 per bottle. I paid about $110 on release.

If I were buying: Arnoux Suchots. Grand cru quality.
I'd like to see price tags attached to these recommendations. What does top-end GC Burgundy cost these days?
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#30 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 6th, 2019, 3:21 pm

La Grande Rue is around $400; if that is the guide there are plenty of premier crus and a few good grand cru options. I would look at Trapet as a serious overachiever.
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#31 Post by Nathan Smyth » June 6th, 2019, 5:59 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Musigny by Roumier
.
roumier-musigny.png
.

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#32 Post by alan weinberg » June 6th, 2019, 7:08 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 5:59 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Musigny by Roumier
.
roumier-musigny.png
.
there’s an argument to make that Roumier’s Musigny is not his best wine. He makes just one barrel and hence can’t do a rigorous selection like he can with his BM.

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#33 Post by Yao C » June 6th, 2019, 9:21 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 7:08 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 5:59 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Musigny by Roumier
.
roumier-musigny.png
.
there’s an argument to make that Roumier’s Musigny is not his best wine. He makes just one barrel and hence can’t do a rigorous selection like he can with his BM.
My memory might be faulty but I recall an old thread where something similar was said about Mugnier Musigny vs Amoureuses. Any thoughts?
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#34 Post by Eric Lundblad » June 6th, 2019, 11:15 pm

The above arguments, and other thoughts, make me thing that a 95, 96, 99 or 00 Rousseau Clos St Jacques would be an excellent choice for this exercise, despite the fact that is, by definition, doesn't qualify (a 1er cru couldn't be the best top end non-DRC red Burgundy). I'm saying this because, in part, at this level, it's about great bottles, not great wines, and I think Rousseau has a better record on this than most other producers...and Clos St Jacuques is the vineyard that they've done the most to stick their neck out about, and would ensure it shows as it should. And, and the end of the day, tasting a great vineyard, from a vintage that's showing well now, is what I want. There are other interesting examples of this tho.
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#35 Post by Gerhard P. » June 6th, 2019, 11:50 pm

Yao C wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 9:21 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 7:08 pm
there’s an argument to make that Roumier’s Musigny is not his best wine. He makes just one barrel and hence can’t do a rigorous selection like he can with his BM.
My memory might be faulty but I recall an old thread where something similar was said about Mugnier Musigny vs Amoureuses. Any thoughts?
Mugnier´s Musigny is always above his Amoureuses, the latter is definitely lighter and less intense, although beautifully perfumed, the M. has the extra stuffings for a real great GC.
One can discuss if Mugnier´s Bonnes-Mares is better than his Fuées ... in BM there is a less than ideal clone ...
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » June 7th, 2019, 4:20 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:59 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:45 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:44 am
If someone wants to try a top of the line red burgundy at a ridiculous price to see what all the fuss is about but doesn't want to pay the DRC ticket, what producer should he look at? Asking for a friend. Really!
What do you mean by the DRC ticket? Any DRC or just the Romanee Conti?
I don't know. He asked me about Domaine Lamarche Grand Rue GC instead of unspecified DRC, which I knew nothing about, so we agreed to ask the question in the form I posed it.
Jay, without price parameters, we are all guessing at what is wanted. I would not think of Grand Rue as a "top of the line" red Burgundy as my guess is one could find better Burgundies for less money. If he wants something from VR that is less expensive than Romanee Conti or la Tache, I first choice would be a Romanee St. Vivant, which has some of the great perfume that makes VR wines so special. If those are too expensive, you might have him look for one of the better Vosne Romanee Premier Crus like Malconsort, Suchots, Beau Monts or Petits Monts. If that is still too much, Hudelot-Noellat makes a beautiful villages level VR at about $60-70 depending on vintage.

But, if he wants great wine that is rare at a very inflated price, try anything by Truchot. Thankfully I bought these way before prices started going up.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#37 Post by JC J o u a s » June 7th, 2019, 5:16 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:59 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:45 am
J a y H a c k wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:44 am
If someone wants to try a top of the line red burgundy at a ridiculous price to see what all the fuss is about but doesn't want to pay the DRC ticket, what producer should he look at? Asking for a friend. Really!
What do you mean by the DRC ticket? Any DRC or just the Romanee Conti?
I don't know. He asked me about Domaine Lamarche Grand Rue GC instead of unspecified DRC, which I knew nothing about, so we agreed to ask the question in the form I posed it.
I think that when it comes to Posner offerings, you or rather your friend should buy blindly neener
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#38 Post by Gerhard P. » June 7th, 2019, 8:26 am

alan weinberg wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 2:55 pm
M-M makes a less costly excellent Richebourg. Or maybe a Ponsot Clos de la Roche?
When considering Mongeard-Mugneret (I think that´s M-M) I would rather buy the Grands-Echezeaux ...
often the better wine - and less expensive than the Rb.
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#39 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 7th, 2019, 10:38 am

There can be only one: Rousseau Chambertin.

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#40 Post by Kirk.Grant » June 7th, 2019, 11:31 am

You're all fools...

Carlo Rossi Burgundy is unlike any other.

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#41 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 7th, 2019, 11:41 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 10:38 am
There can be only one: Rousseau Chambertin.
Yes but hard to find at the same price as Lamarche
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#42 Post by Gerhard P. » June 7th, 2019, 1:56 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 10:38 am
There can be only one: Rousseau Chambertin.
A Rousseau Chambertin (incl. Clos de Beze) doesn´t help ... when opened at the wrong time.
2008 Ch CdB ´08 three months ago was simply a waste ... (not my bottle).
Personally I would keep anything younger than 2000 at the moment ... (maybe except 2007)
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#43 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 7th, 2019, 3:03 pm

I wasn’t suggesting infanticide.

But I see the Lamarche reference now. With this at $300-600 in the US, if the question is what’s the best red Burg even taking the high end of the range, in my view when you go below Rousseau Chambertin (now priced much higher), it becomes entirely subjective.

If you also want mature or in the zone, ....

I might look for 1993 Mugneret-Gibourg Clos Vougeot at a good price—drinking spectacularly now. From a good bottle, one of my top Burgs ever.

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#44 Post by Nick Gangas » June 7th, 2019, 3:25 pm

scamhi wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:49 am
Rousseau Chambertin or Clos de Beze.
Vogue Musigny
Roumier Bonnes Mares
Mugnier Amoureuses
This. If you are looking for 1 bottle to drink young my vote would be the CDB.

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#45 Post by Eric Lundblad » June 7th, 2019, 5:45 pm

Nick Gangas wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 3:25 pm
scamhi wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:49 am
Rousseau Chambertin or Clos de Beze.
Vogue Musigny
Roumier Bonnes Mares
Mugnier Amoureuses
This. If you are looking for 1 bottle to drink young my vote would be the CDB.
But what vintages?

To "see what all the fuss is about", the wine needs to be near maturity imo. I think it's going to be hard to find one of the above in a vintage that's showing some maturity. Personally, I think taking a step down in vineyard in exchange for a step up+ in maturity (e.g. what I suggested above) is the best strategy, esp for someone looking for the fuss.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#46 Post by brodie thomson » June 7th, 2019, 6:23 pm

Eric Lundblad wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 5:45 pm
Nick Gangas wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 3:25 pm
scamhi wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:49 am
Rousseau Chambertin or Clos de Beze.
Vogue Musigny
Roumier Bonnes Mares
Mugnier Amoureuses
This. If you are looking for 1 bottle to drink young my vote would be the CDB.
But what vintages?

To "see what all the fuss is about", the wine needs to be near maturity imo. I think it's going to be hard to find one of the above in a vintage that's showing some maturity. Personally, I think taking a step down in vineyard in exchange for a step up+ in maturity (e.g. what I suggested above) is the best strategy, esp for someone looking for the fuss.
For me an easy answer: 2007. Wide open and ready to go and beautiful right now. Have had 3 of the 4 listed from 2007 in the last year or so and all were wonderful

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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#47 Post by Scot H. » June 8th, 2019, 8:17 am

Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:59 am
domaine serene out of oregon. it beat out drc multiple times.



what suzanne said along with dujac clos de la roche, roumier amoureuses, grivot richebourg, cathiard malconsorts, mugnier musigny, etc.
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Re: What's the nest top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#48 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 8th, 2019, 9:07 am

Scot H. wrote:
June 8th, 2019, 8:17 am
Ed Gonzales wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:59 am
domaine serene out of oregon. it beat out drc multiple times.



what suzanne said along with dujac clos de la roche, roumier amoureuses, grivot richebourg, cathiard malconsorts, mugnier musigny, etc.
Awesome.

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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#49 Post by edwardmilstein » June 8th, 2019, 10:24 am

Eric's suggestion of 2000 CSJ Rousseau is great. Beautiful wine.1000-1600 ( cheaper availability in Europe ) To be fair, lots of good DRC Echezeaux and Grands Echezeaux available in a similar price range.
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Re: What's the Best top end non-DRC red Burgundy?

#50 Post by Joshua Kates » June 8th, 2019, 11:29 am

edwardmilstein wrote:
June 8th, 2019, 10:24 am
Eric's suggestion of 2000 CSJ Rousseau is great. Beautiful wine.1000-1600 ( cheaper availability in Europe ) To be fair, lots of good DRC Echezeaux and Grands Echezeaux available in a similar price range.
Well, that's the problem with many of the responses, IMHO; the wines suggested cost nearly as much or the same as DRC, so why not just purchase it? Surprised Jay has not weighed in to disambiguate, but I guess the idea is something more in the $350-500 zone, at which some of these wines can be had in some vintages, '07, for example, but not many and not usually with much age.

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