If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

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craig v
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If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#1 Post by craig v » May 18th, 2019, 8:34 am

If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT??? Or at least have a reliable spreadsheet of your own???

I organize a local monthly wine group dinner. And pretty much every month, the last few guys to post their wines for an event, are guys with cellars over 1000 btls but with no means to track what they own. And, these are really smart people. Most of them pretty technology savvy to boot. When asked in the past they expressed the perceived challenge of of; tally, organizing and loading their cellars on the front end. One guy expressed concern over needing to contribute the expected annual donation. He's pretty tightfisted. These concerns are not without merit but after you've accumulated 250 btls +, keeping track of what you have so you can drink them within their window, becomes very difficult. Plus how do you avoid not completely forgetting to drink something before it starts to fall off? Especially once you have 500 plus blts? It becomes very difficult and time consuming to rummage though racks and boxes looking for something you think you still own but drank a couple years ago. Plus, you're holding up my event thread :).
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#2 Post by Brian Tuite » May 18th, 2019, 8:50 am

Starting from a small cellar and constantly adding purchases is easy. Starting with a cellar of 500+ bottles and adding is extremely time consuming. Every ear I go through my cellar and do an inventory. I then go into CT and remove/add bottles as necessary. I’m not real good at keeping things up to date on a daily/weekly basis so my numbers skew dramatically. I’m just lazy that way. Went into it with the best of intentions but...

The guy too cheap to spend $25/yr for a service like CT is a headscrath just as is the people who post here day in and day out without becoming supporting members. It’s $25, the wine you are drinking is more expensive than that.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#3 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 18th, 2019, 8:54 am

Haha, I have quite a bit more than that and have no CT, chart, spreadsheet or rationale storage methodology. I was just grabbing more and more lockers. One day....

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#4 Post by michael ottesen » May 18th, 2019, 8:58 am

[cheers.gif] tBecause it's fun to find bottles you dident
Think you had more of.It"d like a free bottle of Wine.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#5 Post by Mark Y » May 18th, 2019, 9:10 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:54 am
Haha, I have quite a bit more than that and have no CT, chart, spreadsheet or rationale storage methodology. I was just grabbing more and more lockers. One day....
Wow. Serious question - how do you remember everything you own? Wouldn’t you have over the hill and forgotten stuff just due to memory lapse?

Separately, If u have excel you can bulk upload with Eric's Help.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#6 Post by B Thorne » May 18th, 2019, 9:18 am

there is no better feeling than finding a few extra surprise dollars in your pocket


now imagine that, but with wine [cheers.gif]
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#7 Post by Eric LeVine » May 18th, 2019, 9:37 am

I have always said that my two biggest competitors are (1) APATHY and (2) MICROSOFT EXCEL.

Craig, thanks for the plug. We are always here to help anyone who wants to get online. I have seen people bang out 1,000 bottles in a short afternoon if they have some friends to do a call and response and help them out.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#8 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 18th, 2019, 9:39 am

Mark Y wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 9:10 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:54 am
Haha, I have quite a bit more than that and have no CT, chart, spreadsheet or rationale storage methodology. I was just grabbing more and more lockers. One day....
Wow. Serious question - how do you remember everything you own? Wouldn’t you have over the hill and forgotten stuff just due to memory lapse?

Separately, If u have excel you can bulk upload with Eric's Help.
My collection had to be started over following the 2004 hurricanes in FL, so the majority of my wines in storage are vintage 2005 to the present. More mature wines that I have backfilled are in more accessible places, like my wine fridges. Now if I had “cellars” like the big ballers - think Doc Glasser - I might pay someone to organize it.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#9 Post by Markus S » May 18th, 2019, 9:43 am

250 bottles are pretty easy to keep track of, I mean it's only 20 cases of wine. Even keeping mental track of 500, 700, 800 is probably easy enough to do. Probably around 1100+ is when it gets tricky.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#10 Post by brigcampbell » May 18th, 2019, 10:15 am

Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 9:37 am
I have always said that my two biggest competitors are (1) APATHY and (2) MICROSOFT EXCEL.

Craig, thanks for the plug. We are always here to help anyone who wants to get online. I have seen people bang out 1,000 bottles in a short afternoon if they have some friends to do a call and response and help them out.
Excel is transitional, IMHO. Anyone that's serious about tracking that uses excel quickly realizes "there must be a better way"

That’s what led me to CT back in the day.

Ironic you were involved in the development of both...

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#11 Post by GregT » May 18th, 2019, 10:17 am

Exactly. You can easily keep track of it at those levels, esp if you have a cellar. If they're all in boxes, it's different.

Moreover, some people don't obsess about looking at and admiring their collections. If you have them in a cellar, it's pretty easy to keep a mental picture of what you tend to put where.

What I can't understand is the people who mark every slot for every bottle and track what they take out of where. I wonder if those folks keep track of the age of their underwear and socks.

Also - the perfect should not be the enemy of the good enough. I write shopping lists on a little sticky pad and put notes or dates to myself on the fridge if there's something I'm supposed to do that I might forget. Some people live in their phones and store everything there. But that doesn't mean it's better to do so. If you're comfortable with something and it works for you, unless there's a compelling reason to change, why change? And remember that your idea of compelling may not be someone else's.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#12 Post by Neal.Mollen » May 18th, 2019, 10:21 am

craig v wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:34 am
If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT??? Or at least have a reliable spreadsheet of your own???

I organize a local monthly wine group dinner. And pretty much every month, the last few guys to post their wines for an event, are guys with cellars over 1000 btls but with no means to track what they own. And, these are really smart people. Most of them pretty technology savvy to boot. When asked in the past they expressed the perceived challenge of of; tally, organizing and loading their cellars on the front end. One guy expressed concern over needing to contribute the expected annual donation. He's pretty tightfisted. These concerns are not without merit but after you've accumulated 250 btls +, keeping track of what you have so you can drink them within their window, becomes very difficult. Plus how do you avoid not completely forgetting to drink something before it starts to fall off? Especially once you have 500 plus blts? It becomes very difficult and time consuming to rummage though racks and boxes looking for something you think you still own but drank a couple years ago. Plus, you're holding up my event thread :).
I have a cellartracker account and use it (sort of) to track purchases and deliveries, but I think the answer to your question is "because it is a hobby." I know for certain that I have the wines I have. I go down to the cellar to find something and poke around until I do. Sometimes I find things I have forgotten I had, which is a bonus. Rarely, I can't find something I "know" is there, but it will turn up eventually.

If I cellared wines that have short drinking windows it might be a bigger issue, but nearly everything I own is going to be fine if I don't get to it now. So . . . I don't really care to "track" my cellar.

I should add that I am a huge fan of CT. The fact that I don't use it as others do doesn't diminish its value to me
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#13 Post by W. Leonard » May 18th, 2019, 10:30 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:54 am
Haha, I have quite a bit more than that and have no CT, chart, spreadsheet or rationale storage methodology. I was just grabbing more and more lockers. One day....
great minds think alike. It is a perpetual treasure hunt!!
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#14 Post by Ron Erickson » May 18th, 2019, 10:37 am

As I'm not a dedicated scribe, Excel works fine for me, and I make it a point to keep current. Generally I organize by region and producer, so finding something isn't too difficult.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#15 Post by GregT » May 18th, 2019, 10:40 am

I think the answer to your question is "because it is a hobby."
Neal answered it more eloquently than I.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#16 Post by CJ Beazley » May 18th, 2019, 10:45 am

Anyone willing to cop to a spiral notebook?
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#17 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 18th, 2019, 11:25 am

Because I'm too lazy to spend time keeping it up to date and I have a good memory and it keeps decent track of my cellar. This may be the shorter version of what Neal said.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#18 Post by Frank Murray III » May 18th, 2019, 12:16 pm

I enjoy knowing where everything is, and the power of the TNs I can track over time, etc. All in, without CT, I wouldn't enjoy the hobby as I do.

However, many folks I know enjoy the hobby just as much by experiencing the surprise of losing line of sight of certain wines, yet finding them later. They feed off and love the spontaneity of kind of knowing the wines are there, but not really knowing where they are. And, the organization and structure of using CT feels confining, suffocating and foreign to think of using it.

These people are known as Perceivers, or "P", in the MBTI parlance. I LOVE my "P" friends. I'm going to a Champagne event today for my wife's business partner, and he must own 400 bottles? He doesn't know where anything is in his cellar, he enjoys opening whatever he grabs and he's a gas to drink with but he'd never use CT. Another one of my "P" friends who is a joy.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#19 Post by John O' » May 18th, 2019, 12:48 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 9:37 am
I have always said that my two biggest competitors are (1) APATHY and (2) MICROSOFT EXCEL.

Craig, thanks for the plug. We are always here to help anyone who wants to get online. I have seen people bang out 1,000 bottles in a short afternoon if they have some friends to do a call and response and help them out.
I formerly used Excel. Back in 2012 I emailed the S/S to you guys and you uploaded it into CT. Made it as easy as falling off a log.
Love your invention, Eric. It gives you so much more than tracking. Tasting notes can tell you if a wine is ready or may need a long decant. Average price paid tells you if that unfamiliar wine offered at a deep discount is really a good deal compare to what most paid for it. Link to wine searcher helps you find that wine you newly fell in love with.
Last edited by John O' on May 18th, 2019, 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#20 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » May 18th, 2019, 12:55 pm

CJ Beazley wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 10:45 am
Anyone willing to cop to a spiral notebook?
No, but that would be an improvement over multiple legal pads.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#21 Post by Yao C » May 18th, 2019, 1:25 pm

The tools we use shape us. I don’t want to use any more software than I absolutely need

So I use a Google spreadsheet. I can access my list from anywhere and make updates to it from anywhere. I’ve built the reporting that I need. It’s easy and fast for me to use. I understand everything I’ve built and can maintain it. I don’t need the vast majority of CT’s features.

I guess I’m option 3: antipathy neener

I’m grateful that I can read the notes that people publish though [cheers.gif]
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#22 Post by Joel Singer » May 18th, 2019, 1:33 pm

I have a several thousand bottles split between my home cellar and a storage facility, which are located thousands of miles apart. I manage them with two spreadsheets. Over the past decade, my experience is that the spreadsheets are wrong less than 5% of the time. Most of these errors are insignificant (a bottle is in an adjacent column or row). A few months ago I signed up for Cellartracker, but when I saw what was involved in the conversion, I really couldn't justify it. So let me turn the question around, if I have spreadsheets that are working for me, why do I need Cellartracker?
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#23 Post by Merrill Lindquist » May 18th, 2019, 1:34 pm

Frank Murray III wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 12:16 pm
I enjoy knowing where everything is, and the power of the TNs I can track over time, etc. All in, without CT, I wouldn't enjoy the hobby as I do.

However, many folks I know enjoy the hobby just as much by experiencing the surprise of losing line of sight of certain wines, yet finding them later. They feed off and love the spontaneity of kind of knowing the wines are there, but not really knowing where they are. And, the organization and structure of using CT feels confining, suffocating and foreign to think of using it.

These people are known as Perceivers, or "P", in the MBTI parlance. I LOVE my "P" friends. I'm going to a Champagne event today for my wife's business partner, and he must own 400 bottles? He doesn't know where anything is in his cellar, he enjoys opening whatever he grabs and he's a gas to drink with but he'd never use CT. Another one of my "P" friends who is a joy.
I agree with everything you say about "many folks" - I am in that category. Entering and removing info is too much like work. I do like the surprises and I do have a general sense of what is in there and where.

However, Frank, I am a definite high "J" - hardly a bit of "P" in my MBTI profile.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#24 Post by KyleC » May 18th, 2019, 1:35 pm

I'm at about 300ish bottles and I use CT, but the input process (even with barcode scanner/photo image recognition) is slow and not optimized for bulk options, and I'm considering dropping it. I still maintain a Google spreadsheet just because it's so much faster.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#25 Post by Eric LeVine » May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm

KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:35 pm
I'm at about 300ish bottles and I use CT, but the input process (even with barcode scanner/photo image recognition) is slow and not optimized for bulk options, and I'm considering dropping it. I still maintain a Google spreadsheet just because it's so much faster.
Are you using the mobile app for input? Or the desktop site and the shopping cart as shown here (about halfway through): https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... e-overview
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#26 Post by Eric LeVine » May 18th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Joel Singer wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:33 pm
I have a several thousand bottles split between my home cellar and a storage facility, which are located thousands of miles apart. I manage them with two spreadsheets. Over the past decade, my experience is that the spreadsheets are wrong less than 5% of the time. Most of these errors are insignificant (a bottle is in an adjacent column or row). A few months ago I signed up for Cellartracker, but when I saw what was involved in the conversion, I really couldn't justify it. So let me turn the question around, if I have spreadsheets that are working for me, why do I need Cellartracker?
1) You won't need to enter the details about the wines, since we have 3 million of them.
2) You benefit from the wisdom of the community: millions of images, tasting notes, drinking windows
3) We partner with 25 different professional wine publications, perhaps some of which you subscribe to. The content is automatically integrated for co-subscribers.
4) You already store in the cloud, a key benefit of CT.
5) You can get an automatic appraisal for insurance.
6) You can barcode bottles. You can do a million other things.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#27 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 18th, 2019, 1:50 pm

I was on Cellar Tracker for a year, and I think it is utterly brilliant. However, I transferred almost all my wine to a professional warehouse who keep inventory. It’s up to date and I do not have to plug in any numbers.

I love the warehouse, the owners are friends. They are efficient and helpful, kind and laugh at my jokes. BUT they have the worst inventory control system I have ever come across. Too many annoying characteristics to list. I long for the days of easy access CT, but unfortunately they are stuck with the system. I totally agree with OP, if you have a lot of wine, CT is an amazing tool.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#28 Post by KyleC » May 18th, 2019, 1:55 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm
KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:35 pm
I'm at about 300ish bottles and I use CT, but the input process (even with barcode scanner/photo image recognition) is slow and not optimized for bulk options, and I'm considering dropping it. I still maintain a Google spreadsheet just because it's so much faster.
Are you using the mobile app for input? Or the desktop site and the shopping cart as shown here (about halfway through): https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... e-overview
I primarily input on the mobile app, e.g. I'm receiving deliveries and inputting them at a remote storage site. I make some bulk updates on desktop via the site, e.g. I'm at home and prepping to move a bunch of stuff into storage, but that's a minority. The 'shopping cart' functionality helps, but it's desktop only.

Overall it seems like your domain model is well structured, but the UX of your app is suboptimal, especially for bulk operations. Even if you just made the hierarchy under wine definition or just the vintage or producer name clickable, that would go a long way towards improving the multi-input experience.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#29 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » May 18th, 2019, 1:59 pm

I couldn’t manage without CT. As to those who don’t use any tracking tools, maybe they don’t want to know how much they’ve spent on wine.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#30 Post by Lee Short » May 18th, 2019, 2:02 pm

I don't, for the reasons others have said. I've got a substantial number of bottles, and entering them all would be a nontrivial task. I've made an uneasy truce with the amount of paperwork I already have in my life, and adding in the everyday chore of entering new purchases and bottles consumed isn't something I'm willing to sign up for.

Having the information at my fingertips would be nice, I admit. I've even signed up for CT with the intention of using it to track my inventory. Maybe I'll do that some day, but the work of getting there has kept me from doing it so far.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#31 Post by Mark Y » May 18th, 2019, 2:10 pm

KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:55 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm
KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:35 pm
I'm at about 300ish bottles and I use CT, but the input process (even with barcode scanner/photo image recognition) is slow and not optimized for bulk options, and I'm considering dropping it. I still maintain a Google spreadsheet just because it's so much faster.
Are you using the mobile app for input? Or the desktop site and the shopping cart as shown here (about halfway through): https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... e-overview
I primarily input on the mobile app, e.g. I'm receiving deliveries and inputting them at a remote storage site. I make some bulk updates on desktop via the site, e.g. I'm at home and prepping to move a bunch of stuff into storage, but that's a minority. The 'shopping cart' functionality helps, but it's desktop only.

Overall it seems like your domain model is well structured, but the UX of your app is suboptimal, especially for bulk operations. Even if you just made the hierarchy under wine definition or just the vintage or producer name clickable, that would go a long way towards improving the multi-input experience.
The mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, it is not meant for bulk manipulation and operation you are correct.

The desktop version is a monster.. 99.9999% of the time when someone says "CT can't", on a desktop version, it's user error / lack of know how.
the mobile app has a long way to go to catch up to desktop functionality, but like i said, i use it mainly to consume a bottle, check a note, and look at inventory here and there.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#32 Post by Mark Y » May 18th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Joel Singer wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:33 pm
I have a several thousand bottles split between my home cellar and a storage facility, which are located thousands of miles apart. I manage them with two spreadsheets. Over the past decade, my experience is that the spreadsheets are wrong less than 5% of the time. Most of these errors are insignificant (a bottle is in an adjacent column or row). A few months ago I signed up for Cellartracker, but when I saw what was involved in the conversion, I really couldn't justify it. So let me turn the question around, if I have spreadsheets that are working for me, why do I need Cellartracker?
If you put the time into managing with CT, as you do with your excel spreadsheet, CT is wrong 0% of the time. And you don't ever risk 'losing' your file b/c a harddrive went bust..

And if you have a list of wine on excel, the conversion process I THINK (never done it since i started organically), is to just email Eric's team your excel.. and they'll import/convert for you.
i could be wrong tho.

Edit to add: based on excel, can you tell what your collection is by region? by varietal?
consumption by month? by quarter?
largest holding by producer? purchase trend over time?
I guess data geekiness is only interesting to a handful of people tho ;)
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#33 Post by Eric LeVine » May 18th, 2019, 2:14 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:10 pm
KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:55 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Are you using the mobile app for input? Or the desktop site and the shopping cart as shown here (about halfway through): https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... e-overview
I primarily input on the mobile app, e.g. I'm receiving deliveries and inputting them at a remote storage site. I make some bulk updates on desktop via the site, e.g. I'm at home and prepping to move a bunch of stuff into storage, but that's a minority. The 'shopping cart' functionality helps, but it's desktop only.

Overall it seems like your domain model is well structured, but the UX of your app is suboptimal, especially for bulk operations. Even if you just made the hierarchy under wine definition or just the vintage or producer name clickable, that would go a long way towards improving the multi-input experience.
The mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, it is not meant for bulk manipulation and operation you are correct.

The desktop version is a monster.. 99.9999% of the time when someone says "CT can't", on a desktop version, it's user error / lack of know how.
the mobile app has a long way to go to catch up to desktop functionality, but like i said, i use it mainly to consume a bottle, check a note, and look at inventory here and there.
The criticism here is totally fair. There are still way too many things one can only do in desktop, and the mobile app design predated bigger screens and needs to scale better across a wider range of form factors. We are just lining up a designer to kick off a mobile refresh. As Mark notes, right now the mobile app is better as a companion, but in a world of many mobile-first and mobile-only users we need to do way better.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#34 Post by KyleC » May 18th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:10 pm
The mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, it is not meant for bulk manipulation and operation you are correct.

The desktop version is a monster.. 99.9999% of the time when someone says "CT can't", on a desktop version, it's user error / lack of know how.
the mobile app has a long way to go to catch up to desktop functionality, but like i said, i use it mainly to consume a bottle, check a note, and look at inventory here and there.
I get that, but for you too say "the mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, is not meant for..." is the wrong mentality entirely and a bit presumptuous. Sure most of this forum is full of older folks on desktop, but if you want to capture a younger audience who's just starting out, and will grow with CT over time, you gotta be mobile first.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#35 Post by KyleC » May 18th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:14 pm
The criticism here is totally fair. There are still way too many things one can only do in desktop, and the mobile app design predated bigger screens and needs to scale better across a wider range of form factors. We are just lining up a designer to kick off a mobile refresh. As Mark notes, right now the mobile app is better as a companion, but in a world of many mobile-first and mobile-only users we need to do way better.
Glad to hear it. Good luck, if you do a few user studies with a proper UX researcher, for a few hours, you should have more than enough feedback to do a proper redesign (and hopefully standardize interaction paradigms between desktop and mobile so there's not a huge amount of dissonance when you go back and forth which is my experience thus far).
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#36 Post by Eric LeVine » May 18th, 2019, 2:32 pm

KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:24 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:14 pm
The criticism here is totally fair. There are still way too many things one can only do in desktop, and the mobile app design predated bigger screens and needs to scale better across a wider range of form factors. We are just lining up a designer to kick off a mobile refresh. As Mark notes, right now the mobile app is better as a companion, but in a world of many mobile-first and mobile-only users we need to do way better.
Glad to hear it. Good luck, if you do a few user studies with a proper UX researcher, for a few hours, you should have more than enough feedback to do a proper redesign (and hopefully standardize interaction paradigms between desktop and mobile so there's not a huge amount of dissonance when you go back and forth which is my experience thus far).
That is the plan.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#37 Post by Joel Singer » May 18th, 2019, 3:10 pm

If you put the time into managing with CT, as you do with your excel spreadsheet, CT is wrong 0% of the time. And you don't ever risk 'losing' your file b/c a harddrive went bust..

And if you have a list of wine on excel, the conversion process I THINK (never done it since i started organically), is to just email Eric's team your excel.. and they'll import/convert for you.
i could be wrong tho.

Edit to add: based on excel, can you tell what your collection is by region? by varietal?
consumption by month? by quarter?
largest holding by producer? purchase trend over time?
I guess data geekiness is only interesting to a handful of people tho ;)
Some good points here, though I don't understand the first one about 0 errors. My errors are mostly data input. For example, I type the wine into the wrong cell or forget to move a bottle in the spreadsheet when I physically move it. How does Cellartracker avoid that? As for my hard drive going bust, I have multiple copies of the spreadsheet on the cloud.

When I signed up, I didn't get the sense that I could just mail my spreadsheets for conversion. I had to match the columns to fields and probably elaborate some of my abbreviations and shorthand.

Eric, you also made some good points, particularly about information access. When I retire at the end of next year. I'll look into moving over again.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#38 Post by Mark Y » May 18th, 2019, 3:20 pm

KyleC wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:21 pm
Mark Y wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:10 pm
The mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, it is not meant for bulk manipulation and operation you are correct.

The desktop version is a monster.. 99.9999% of the time when someone says "CT can't", on a desktop version, it's user error / lack of know how.
the mobile app has a long way to go to catch up to desktop functionality, but like i said, i use it mainly to consume a bottle, check a note, and look at inventory here and there.
I get that, but for you too say "the mobile app is for pulling a bottle, checking a note, is not meant for..." is the wrong mentality entirely and a bit presumptuous. Sure most of this forum is full of older folks on desktop, but if you want to capture a younger audience who's just starting out, and will grow with CT over time, you gotta be mobile first.
haha i'm not quite that old ;) but yah i agree and just as Eric said, there's plenty of mobile-first/only users, and future growth of CT is with mobile :)
I wasn't saying that's acceptable or good, or presuming anything.. i was more saying that's what it is mainly for RIGHT NOW, not the end state vision. I look forward to the day the mobile is even close to the desktop in functionality.
I don't know if feature parity is possible, or even really necessary, but certainly lots of desired features to add which clearly Eric's got the right mentality for and actioning towards.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#39 Post by Victor Hong » May 18th, 2019, 3:22 pm

craig v wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:34 am
If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT??? Or at least have a reliable spreadsheet of your own???

I organize a local monthly wine group dinner. And pretty much every month, the last few guys to post their wines for an event, are guys with cellars over 1000 btls but with no means to track what they own. And, these are really smart people. Most of them pretty technology savvy to boot. When asked in the past they expressed the perceived challenge of of; tally, organizing and loading their cellars on the front end. One guy expressed concern over needing to contribute the expected annual donation. He's pretty tightfisted. These concerns are not without merit but after you've accumulated 250 btls +, keeping track of what you have so you can drink them within their window, becomes very difficult. Plus how do you avoid not completely forgetting to drink something before it starts to fall off? Especially once you have 500 plus blts? It becomes very difficult and time consuming to rummage though racks and boxes looking for something you think you still own but drank a couple years ago. Plus, you're holding up my event thread :).
Too busy with my Applebee's night job to upload my Capital Grille Steakhouse wannabee cellar. pileon
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#40 Post by Mark Y » May 18th, 2019, 3:23 pm

Joel Singer wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 3:10 pm
If you put the time into managing with CT, as you do with your excel spreadsheet, CT is wrong 0% of the time. And you don't ever risk 'losing' your file b/c a harddrive went bust..

And if you have a list of wine on excel, the conversion process I THINK (never done it since i started organically), is to just email Eric's team your excel.. and they'll import/convert for you.
i could be wrong tho.

Edit to add: based on excel, can you tell what your collection is by region? by varietal?
consumption by month? by quarter?
largest holding by producer? purchase trend over time?
I guess data geekiness is only interesting to a handful of people tho ;)
Some good points here, though I don't understand the first one about 0 errors. My errors are mostly data input. For example, I type the wine into the wrong cell or forget to move a bottle in the spreadsheet when I physically move it. How does Cellartracker avoid that? As for my hard drive going bust, I have multiple copies of the spreadsheet on the cloud.

When I signed up, I didn't get the sense that I could just mail my spreadsheets for conversion. I had to match the columns to fields and probably elaborate some of my abbreviations and shorthand.

Eric, you also made some good points, particularly about information access. When I retire at the end of next year. I'll look into moving over again.
Ah. if you mean you forget to remove a bottle after you consumed it, that's user error in both cases and not avoidable.. you are right. :)
Many other input errors are reduced/eliminated through standardization through the CX.. give it a shot. And yah, email them the list, i'm guessing they can do the 'bulk' of the work.. not to say it's completely hands off, but it's definitely not manual input each bottle. [cheers.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#41 Post by Anton D » May 18th, 2019, 3:42 pm

I approach my cellar in the same way one chooses which peyote button to consume: make a pilgrimage along the sacred route from the dining/social area to the cellar. Ask the wine God (I use Bacchus) for a good experience, and for the enjoyment of my guests and their good health (and for their animals and plants.) When I reach the cellar I perform a ritual bath along with prayers and dancing before going in to hunt wine. I follow the Tao and wait for the bottle to present itself. Then, consume it overnight while performing spiritual ceremonies and dances.

Over-organizing my cellar would alter the harmony and balance of what I have collected and placed in my cellar in accordance with the Tao of Wine.

Eventually, the correct bottles will be consumed at the correct time.

Plus, I would rather give up on an enjoyable hobby before I would want to organize it. My motto is: "A place for everything, and everything all over the place."

Organized or not organized. Yes, there are two paths you can go by. But, in the long run there's still time to change the road we're on, either way.

Lastly, pay attention when you put your damn wine away and you'll know where things are! [cheers.gif]
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#42 Post by Jon Drummond » May 18th, 2019, 3:48 pm

CT is brilliant.

People who state that "Excel works, why change?" are like people staying with typewriters ("still types") when there are modern computers around, or those old fogies that still have early 2000s Nokia 8250/3310 cell phones ("still makes calls and sms") when there are smartphones around.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#43 Post by Eric Egan » May 18th, 2019, 3:57 pm

I'm well into four figures and don't use cellartracker, or any other form of cataloguing system because I find it tedious - both to update and to keep a running tally. I find cellartracker's design about as compelling as a toad biscuit. Also, I keep having to enter in new wines and vintages (I guess I buy a lot of obscure stuff), which takes ages. Generally, I've not taken great pleasure in looking at lists - I prefer to just look at the bottles. I know what I've got, apart from the odd little surprise here and there, which I find pleasing rather than annoying.

I've tried to keep things updated on CT before but just can't be bothered in the long run - each to their own I guess.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#44 Post by PaulMills » May 18th, 2019, 4:22 pm

I started using CT with a little over 100 bottles I think. I was using Excel before. Entering data in CT was easy and I did it over a few days. I now have about 800 bottles and would be willing to enter the bottles in CT now if I had too. I think it is a valuable tool for this hobby. It is nice to be able to find TNs and values on my wines, and so many others.

The only bad thing about CT is that Eric is an enabler in helping us find this data so easy and buy more wine. Bad, Eric. Bad.

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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#45 Post by Matthew King » May 18th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:42 pm
Joel Singer wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:33 pm
I have a several thousand bottles split between my home cellar and a storage facility, which are located thousands of miles apart. I manage them with two spreadsheets. Over the past decade, my experience is that the spreadsheets are wrong less than 5% of the time. Most of these errors are insignificant (a bottle is in an adjacent column or row). A few months ago I signed up for Cellartracker, but when I saw what was involved in the conversion, I really couldn't justify it. So let me turn the question around, if I have spreadsheets that are working for me, why do I need Cellartracker?
1) You won't need to enter the details about the wines, since we have 3 million of them.
2) You benefit from the wisdom of the community: millions of images, tasting notes, drinking windows
3) We partner with 25 different professional wine publications, perhaps some of which you subscribe to. The content is automatically integrated for co-subscribers.
4) You already store in the cloud, a key benefit of CT.
5) You can get an automatic appraisal for insurance.
6) You can barcode bottles. You can do a million other things.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#46 Post by Kris Patten » May 18th, 2019, 4:28 pm

I pay for CT each time I go on, which isnt very often, because I like to support Eric. I don't keep up with it or use it because I have an organized cellar by region and I like to "shop" in there when we have wine from it.....and with a kid, kid on way, wife, one round of golf per week, I like to spend time with my family, play my 1 round and sleep vs. input bottles.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#47 Post by Paul McCourt » May 18th, 2019, 4:45 pm

I have an account. However, I am WAY too lazy to keep track of my wine. Off site keeps track of what’s there but I don’t think I’ve even looked at the inventory they send in over a year.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#48 Post by GregT » May 18th, 2019, 5:17 pm

1) You won't need to enter the details about the wines, since we have 3 million of them.
2) You benefit from the wisdom of the community: millions of images, tasting notes, drinking windows
3) We partner with 25 different professional wine publications, perhaps some of which you subscribe to. The content is automatically integrated for co-subscribers.
4) You already store in the cloud, a key benefit of CT.
5) You can get an automatic appraisal for insurance.
6) You can barcode bottles. You can do a million other things.
5, and 6 are interesting. I can't imagine why I would barcode a bottle personally, but I can see that being quite useful for someone who is using CT for business.

As far as the others, I can also see them being more or less useful for some folks, but it's not too hard to enter the detail you want - say producer and vintage, and if you care, the composition and price. As for drinking windows, if you put them in yourself, what good does it do to put them in at all? You know when you want to drink it. And frankly, at some point you become confident enough in your own assessment not to care about someone else's suggested drinking window or TN. If I have the wine, I'll eventually drink it and find out what it tastes like for myself.

The integration with other publications is also an interesting feature, but the only one I subscribe to that reviews wine is the free WS I get through those free magazine offers from unrelated purchases. And remember, MS Excel is in the cloud these days.

This is no criticism or argument, CT is fine and were I just starting to collect enough wine to want to write it down, I'd probably log in and put things in CT and pay more attention to the opinions of others. But it hasn't been too difficult keeping track the way I've been doing it.
Edit to add: based on excel, can you tell what your collection is by region? by varietal?
consumption by month? by quarter?
largest holding by producer? purchase trend over time?
I guess data geekiness is only interesting to a handful of people tho
Why would you not be able to tell every one of those things? Regularly poring over that kind of data would be of absolutely no interest to me, but but there is a sort function in Excel.

More to the point - if you like Cote Rotie and you've been buying more Cote Rotie lately, don't you think you'd know that without resort to some historical data? If not, maybe look at the number of bottles consumed nightly and cut back!
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#49 Post by Scott Brunson » May 18th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 9:39 am
Mark Y wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 9:10 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 8:54 am
Haha, I have quite a bit more than that and have no CT, chart, spreadsheet or rationale storage methodology. I was just grabbing more and more lockers. One day....
Wow. Serious question - how do you remember everything you own? Wouldn’t you have over the hill and forgotten stuff just due to memory lapse?

Separately, If u have excel you can bulk upload with Eric's Help.
My collection had to be started over following the 2004 hurricanes in FL, so the majority of my wines in storage are vintage 2005 to the present. More mature wines that I have backfilled are in more accessible places, like my wine fridges. Now if I had “cellars” like the big ballers - think Doc Glasser - I might pay someone to organize it.
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Re: If you have 250 or more btls in your cellar, why are u not on CT?

#50 Post by jon leifer » May 18th, 2019, 5:25 pm

CJ: I will cop to having used a spiral notebook..got to about 600 or so bottles then noticed a significant palate change and found myself crossing off more bottles than I was adding as I was drinking down certain sections of my cellar....After a while I just stopped entering or crossing off bottles, I guess I entered/exited the apathy phase re inventorying the cellar and have now accelerated the drinking down my cellar phase as I am well beyond my sunset years. Will be spending some time wine tasting in Oregon and Washington in June, two areas I am not familiar with winewise, hence the trip..wife and I will also run a few races while we are out there..No clue re how this might impact my cellar but clearly it won't reduce it.
Jon

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