Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#251 Post by c fu » September 23rd, 2019, 11:02 pm

Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm
c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm
Zachary Ross wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm
Juge for President!
My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
15 allemand reynard and 15 gerard la la are drinking insanely well with 8 hours in a wide based decanter. Shockingly so. Chave, decent but nothing mind blowing with the same amount of air.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#252 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 11:14 pm

c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 11:02 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm
c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm


My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
15 allemand reynard and 15 gerard la la are drinking insanely well with 8 hours in a wide based decanter. Shockingly so. Chave, decent but nothing mind blowing with the same amount of air.
Yeah, I saw your IG post; looked like a great dinner. I should really open one of the Gerard LaLas; have only had the 13 so far. I find his base bottling a touch glossy for me, but really liked the burly nature of the 13 LaLa.
Have been underwhelmed by the 15s I’ve had generally though, including Jamet and Chave, which is the reason I chose to bring the 16 Levet rather than the 15.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#253 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 24th, 2019, 3:37 am

Ok this has become a bummer of a thread. I have not even taken delivery of my 2015 Benetiere and already hate it. [wow.gif]

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#254 Post by Robert M yers » September 24th, 2019, 6:22 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 3:37 am
Ok this has become a bummer of a thread. I have not even taken delivery of my 2015 Benetiere and already hate it. [wow.gif]
I know, I’m hoping the “Panzer bottles” saves us. Fu’s mediocre Note has me clinging to some hope. I was sooooo looking forward to these too. I haven’t popped any 15 lately but it seems maybe the window should be past for early drinking?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#255 Post by ybarselah » September 24th, 2019, 7:47 am

re 2015 juge, for me it's a top wine and a superb and very typical juge. the wines to drink young from 2015 are st joseph, not cote-rotie or cornas, for the most part. that said a gripa recently was bananas good.

happy to hear about the le greal don't see too many notes here on that wine. i had a 2005 recently and it started out great, but the oak took over at the end...was a surprising result.

what i find going through all the notes here on the benetiere (so far) - and i'm including fu's notes as well - is a general lack of cote-rotie-ness; it doesn't seem like the wine is flawed per se (meaning an obvious technical flaw like too much va or brett or whatever) nor does it seem like the wine is cooked or suffering from overt storage issues. anecdotal info in this thread about the cellars and storage, etc., seem typical and reasonable. it just seems that whatever they did, in the cellar, in the winery, or elsewhere, that it's not "correct" for cote-rotie. also, this is a vintage where everyone made really fantastic wines - not average, not good, but fantastic. it may not be your preference for a vintage style, but i think we can all agree that it's considered a fantastic vintage for the northern rhone reds across the board and benetiere is meant to be a top-tier producer. i don't have a conclusion here at all. but what's in the bottle seems to speak for itself, at least so far.

now, when you combine the fact that they printed the original labels and then had to relabel them as VdF, that's where something is amiss for me. if it was indeed a storage issue, there would be no reason to do that - you'd tell folks it was not stored correctly and hope you can still sell it and/or declassify and price accordingly. so the only thing left is so-called paperwork and that brings us eventually to INAO, which is the only body that has the authority to deny AOC status. also, from what i can gather tax and inventory reporting with customs is a monthly exercise, not yearly. so if benetiere wasn't doing this, it seems that customs was just letting them slide for many reporting periods. given the intensity with which customs seems to regulate wine in france and taxing authorities generally, it would seem to be odd for such a laid back response. (for those interested, this is surprisingly easy to navigate: http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a126 ... i-vinicole )

and this is where the trail goes cold - at least for me. we don't know what was submitted for testing nor what the results where. or even if it was submitted for testing at all. further, the timing delay is odd; seems that the cadence of harvest, making wine, aging, submitting, etc., is the same every year but here we are delayed a full year. and again, they labeled the wines cote-rotie which means that at some point the domaine felt they were going to distribute it like that. so, this isn't a declassification example where they felt that it wasn't up to their standards and decided to do this, or that they are generally against the INAO standards and decide to opt out (a la souhaut and others?).

putting all of that aside, we can muster a few hard facts that individually are ... unique to say the least, but collectively cannot be described as anything other than concerning:

1. delayed a year

2. labeled as cote-rotie, then relabeled as VdF

3. one major importer has completely recalled the wines from trade

4. tasting is all over the map
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#256 Post by Nathan V. » September 24th, 2019, 7:54 am

Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
Curious what the cork looked like. A wine that young that has been properly stored and shipped should not have any stain up the sides of the cork at all.

As an aside, I often wish that people who take pictures would put the cork in there too. While not the whole story it is a decent indicator of what the bottle may have gone through. (FWIW, I'm not really better about this than anyone else.)
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#257 Post by c fu » September 24th, 2019, 8:00 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 7:54 am
Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
Curious what the cork looked like. A wine that young that has been properly stored and shipped should not have any stain up the sides of the cork at all.

As an aside, I often wish that people who take pictures would put the cork in there too. While not the whole story it is a decent indicator of what the bottle may have gone through. (FWIW, I'm not really better about this than anyone else.)


Pic of cork. It was fine.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#258 Post by Greg K » September 24th, 2019, 8:07 am

FWIW, one of the people to whom I gave it blind the following day identified it as Cote Rotie. So to say it has "no Cote Rotie character" depends on the taster.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#259 Post by DanielP » September 24th, 2019, 8:15 am

Yaacov, you are asserting that Benetiere lost his Cote-Rotie designation because his wines sucked/lacked typicity.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#260 Post by ybarselah » September 24th, 2019, 9:10 am

DanielP wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 8:15 am
Yaacov, you are asserting that Benetiere lost his Cote-Rotie designation because his wines sucked/lacked typicity.
if that's your take from what i wrote, then we strongly disagree. to be clear, i am 100% NOT stating that because there is zero evidence that's the case.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#261 Post by ybarselah » September 24th, 2019, 9:12 am

Greg K wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 8:07 am
FWIW, one of the people to whom I gave it blind the following day identified it as Cote Rotie. So to say it has "no Cote Rotie character" depends on the taster.


fully correct, Greg! hence my comment about tasting all over the map. i had it twice not blind and didn't feel like it screamed CR, but again, each bottle seems different and certainly expectations and tasting matter. also, good luck on cote-rotie typicity consensus.

discount everything else i wrote to zero and you're still left with the 4 facts I listed...
Last edited by ybarselah on September 24th, 2019, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#262 Post by c fu » September 24th, 2019, 9:14 am

Greg K wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 8:07 am
FWIW, one of the people to whom I gave it blind the following day identified it as Cote Rotie. So to say it has "no Cote Rotie character" depends on the taster.
same as the person I tasted it with the following day. I abstained from commenting as it was served blind to him.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#263 Post by c fu » September 24th, 2019, 9:46 am

ybarselah wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 7:47 am
re 2015 juge, for me it's a top wine and a superb and very typical juge. the wines to drink young from 2015 are st joseph, not cote-rotie or cornas, for the most part. that said a gripa recently was bananas good.

happy to hear about the le greal don't see too many notes here on that wine. i had a 2005 recently and it started out great, but the oak took over at the end...was a surprising result.

what i find going through all the notes here on the benetiere (so far) - and i'm including fu's notes as well - is a general lack of cote-rotie-ness; it doesn't seem like the wine is flawed per se (meaning an obvious technical flaw like too much va or brett or whatever) nor does it seem like the wine is cooked or suffering from overt storage issues. anecdotal info in this thread about the cellars and storage, etc., seem typical and reasonable. it just seems that whatever they did, in the cellar, in the winery, or elsewhere, that it's not "correct" for cote-rotie. also, this is a vintage where everyone made really fantastic wines - not average, not good, but fantastic. it may not be your preference for a vintage style, but i think we can all agree that it's considered a fantastic vintage for the northern rhone reds across the board and benetiere is meant to be a top-tier producer. i don't have a conclusion here at all. but what's in the bottle seems to speak for itself, at least so far.

now, when you combine the fact that they printed the original labels and then had to relabel them as VdF, that's where something is amiss for me. if it was indeed a storage issue, there would be no reason to do that - you'd tell folks it was not stored correctly and hope you can still sell it and/or declassify and price accordingly. so the only thing left is so-called paperwork and that brings us eventually to INAO, which is the only body that has the authority to deny AOC status. also, from what i can gather tax and inventory reporting with customs is a monthly exercise, not yearly. so if benetiere wasn't doing this, it seems that customs was just letting them slide for many reporting periods. given the intensity with which customs seems to regulate wine in france and taxing authorities generally, it would seem to be odd for such a laid back response. (for those interested, this is surprisingly easy to navigate: http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a126 ... i-vinicole )

and this is where the trail goes cold - at least for me. we don't know what was submitted for testing nor what the results where. or even if it was submitted for testing at all. further, the timing delay is odd; seems that the cadence of harvest, making wine, aging, submitting, etc., is the same every year but here we are delayed a full year. and again, they labeled the wines cote-rotie which means that at some point the domaine felt they were going to distribute it like that. so, this isn't a declassification example where they felt that it wasn't up to their standards and decided to do this, or that they are generally against the INAO standards and decide to opt out (a la souhaut and others?).

putting all of that aside, we can muster a few hard facts that individually are ... unique to say the least, but collectively cannot be described as anything other than concerning:

1. delayed a year

2. labeled as cote-rotie, then relabeled as VdF

3. one major importer has completely recalled the wines from trade

4. tasting is all over the map
I've stated this multiple times in the thread. Every single wine they released or are releasing in 2014/2015/2016 is labeled VDF. The white wines, the doliums, the cordeloux.

The 2014 Dolium is labeled VDF and it is a freakishly good wine that screams Benetiere Dolium. It had all the hallmarks of the 2013 dolium next to it.

The labeling issue is a non issue to me in regards to the wine itself for the 15 cordeloux.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#264 Post by Markus S » September 24th, 2019, 10:33 am

ybarselah wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 7:47 am
1. delayed a year

2. labeled as cote-rotie, then relabeled as VdF

3. one major importer has completely recalled the wines from trade

4. tasting is all over the map
So? What's your point? Like conspiracy theories?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#265 Post by Nathan V. » September 24th, 2019, 10:41 am

c fu wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 8:00 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 7:54 am
Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
Curious what the cork looked like. A wine that young that has been properly stored and shipped should not have any stain up the sides of the cork at all.

As an aside, I often wish that people who take pictures would put the cork in there too. While not the whole story it is a decent indicator of what the bottle may have gone through. (FWIW, I'm not really better about this than anyone else.)
Pic of cork. It was fine.
Looks peachy keen.

Did the NY cork look like that?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#266 Post by ybarselah » September 24th, 2019, 11:41 am

nathan - yes, my two bottles were pristine as well as the corks. if the implication is that there are 2 or 3 different batches or shipments, that's not something that has been confirmed either. though it seems from this thread that the panzer bottles are from the same shipment as polaner. but again, no clue what happened when or where, or if at all!

charlie - very good point, that i suppose might be relevant in an exploration of a larger issue, tasting aside. i haven't had those wines and other than you i'm not sure i've seen notes. as for the 2016s, i haven't seen those yet either. so not sure i can reasonably conclude anything new or different than what's already in this thread. so they were either not allowed to release aoc wines or they didn't want to release aoc wines, though that analysis doesn't necessarily have to be applied to all or none ... right?

markus - i'm not sure i'll ever have a response that satisfies you but: (1) this is a wine board, welcome! (2) this thread - not started by me - was about the delay on the 15 release, which was clearly interesting to some folks, myself included as i was eagerly awaiting it. everything since has been a discussion and exploration of that delay. we certainly have a lot more information than we did before. it doesn't seem like you care one way or the other. i myself am pretty close to being exhausted by it tbh ....
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#267 Post by Robert M yers » September 24th, 2019, 11:56 am

your so hung up on the labeling issue which has nothing to do with what’s in
The bottle. We could give two shits about the label, I would drop ever mentioning that again, it’s not helping your conspiracy theories. .

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#268 Post by Robert Panzer » September 24th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Briefly getting sucked back into this shitshow of a thread because I can't stand to keep silent....
Yaacov, you need to let your conspiracy nonsense go. Not that you will because I told you to do so, but.....You can choose not to trust me if that is your choice, but I am a straight shooter, and you have already been given all of the answers to your questions. You just won't stop.
The wines were relabeled because the orders had been prepared well in advance, with the expectation that once things got ironed out with the Douane the orders would depart. Then a wrench got thrown in the works when the INAO wouldn't allow them to retroactively make their declarations four years in the rearview mirror. They didn't want to make a new standard reaching that far back, so they used the measuring stick of two years retroactive which had already been done a number of times. So rather than spend hours scraping off the labels, they just put the new ones on top.
You are wrong about the functioning of customs. One makes one's declarations after harvest first to the Douane, and then you "revindiquer" (make a follow up claim) with the AOC, after which point your harvest is officially sanctioned as part of the appellation of origin.
Yes, one would report monthly to customs if you are selling wine each month. But as nothing is allowed to leave the estate during the "blackout" period, there was nothing to report.
Polaner did NOT completely recall the wine. In an attempt to satisfy an outcry from select circles in the NY scene they offered the possibility to return the wines for credit, or keep the wines for a reduced price. Many accounts have chosen each option.
You may have good intentions in wishing to understand, but your actions to that end have been shitty, shallow, and speculative in spite of having recourse to any questions you have had.
I have been too generous with you out of a sense of duty to be forthright and to explain a most unusual circumstance.
You seem to be ok to continue to point the finger at any whisper of a possibility that you are shadow boxing.
You need to take a look in the mirror as well.
Last edited by Robert Panzer on September 24th, 2019, 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#269 Post by A. So » September 24th, 2019, 12:25 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Yaacov, you need to let your conspiracy nonsense go.
And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#270 Post by J.Vizuete » September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Well would you look at that from Envoyer....
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#271 Post by RyanC » September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Wow. Envoyer offering '15 Benetiere for $160/btl. I've never paid more than $75 for Cordeloux and I purchased '11 Dolium on release for $150.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#272 Post by Josh Grossman » September 24th, 2019, 1:33 pm

J.Vizuete wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Well would you look at that from Envoyer....
Haha. Came here to say that too. I might have bought some if not for this thread. 160 bones.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#273 Post by Nathan V. » September 24th, 2019, 1:51 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Briefly getting sucked back into this shitshow of a thread because I can't stand to keep silent....
Yaacov, you need to let your conspiracy nonsense go. Not that you will because I told you to do so, but.....You can choose not to trust me if that is your choice, but I am a straight shooter, and you have already been given all of the answers to your questions. You just won't stop.
The wines were relabeled because the orders had been prepared well in advance, with the expectation that once things got ironed out with the Douane the orders would depart. Then a wrench got thrown in the works when the INAO wouldn't allow them to retroactively make their declarations four years in the rearview mirror. They didn't want to make a new standard reaching that far back, so they used the measuring stick of two years retroactive which had already been done a number of times. So rather than spend hours scraping off the labels, they just put the new ones on top.
You are wrong about the functioning of customs. One makes one's declarations after harvest first to the Douane, and then you "revindiquer" (make a follow up claim) with the AOC, after which point your harvest is officially sanctioned as part of the appellation of origin.
Yes, one would report monthly to customs if you are selling wine each month. But as nothing is allowed to leave the estate during the "blackout" period, there was nothing to report.
Polaner did NOT completely recall the wine. In an attempt to satisfy an outcry from select circles in the NY scene they offered the possibility to return the wines for credit, or keep the wines for a reduced price. Many accounts have chosen each option.
You may have good intentions in wishing to understand, but your actions to that end have been shitty, shallow, and speculative in spite of having recourse to any questions you have had.
I have been too generous with you out of a sense of duty to be forthright and to explain a most unusual circumstance.
You seem to be ok to continue to point the finger at any whisper of a possibility that you are shadow boxing.
You need to take a look in the mirror as well.
I don't really have a dog in this fight other than liking the wines. But given the rarity, price and stature of the wine this is a really weird circumstance. In fact, I'm having a hard time remembering anything similar. Sure, natural wines in the Lorie and other spots (Angeli, Gramenon, etc.) may not get the AOC but that's usually because the wines don't fit the mold.

I've read this thread, but cannot find the why of missing tax payments. From what you wrote, it was from 2014 - 2019. That's kind of crazy, especially for a producer of this stature. If this was going on with one of my vigneron friends I'd be sick with worry. It would be one thing if folks were taking a flier on a $20 Touraine made by a naturalista but this is substantially different. To me, the why of it all is what is being danced around.

viewtopic.php?p=2801953#p2801953
...
After the '14 harvest, Pierre didn't file any paperwork.
Then things snowballed, with no paperwork filed whatsoever until Marie dug them out in the late winter/early spring of '19!
...
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#274 Post by ybarselah » September 24th, 2019, 2:19 pm

RyanC wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Wow. Envoyer offering '15 Benetiere for $160/btl. I've never paid more than $75 for Cordeloux and I purchased '11 Dolium on release for $150.
local wholesale was around $70 for the 2015 cord, so i don't think that price has been true for a while??
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#275 Post by scott c » September 24th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Man I wish I had been able to make that NYC dinner. Anyway, I'm on my way to return my bottles to the retailer from whence they came right at this very moment.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#276 Post by jleedionne » September 24th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Briefly getting sucked back into this shitshow of a thread because I can't stand to keep silent....
Yaacov, you need to let your conspiracy nonsense go. Not that you will because I told you to do so, but.....You can choose not to trust me if that is your choice, but I am a straight shooter, and you have already been given all of the answers to your questions. You just won't stop.
The wines were relabeled because the orders had been prepared well in advance, with the expectation that once things got ironed out with the Douane the orders would depart. Then a wrench got thrown in the works when the INAO wouldn't allow them to retroactively make their declarations four years in the rearview mirror. They didn't want to make a new standard reaching that far back, so they used the measuring stick of two years retroactive which had already been done a number of times. So rather than spend hours scraping off the labels, they just put the new ones on top.
You are wrong about the functioning of customs. One makes one's declarations after harvest first to the Douane, and then you "revindiquer" (make a follow up claim) with the AOC, after which point your harvest is officially sanctioned as part of the appellation of origin.
Yes, one would report monthly to customs if you are selling wine each month. But as nothing is allowed to leave the estate during the "blackout" period, there was nothing to report.
Polaner did NOT completely recall the wine. In an attempt to satisfy an outcry from select circles in the NY scene they offered the possibility to return the wines for credit, or keep the wines for a reduced price. Many accounts have chosen each option.
You may have good intentions in wishing to understand, but your actions to that end have been shitty, shallow, and speculative in spite of having recourse to any questions you have had.
I have been too generous with you out of a sense of duty to be forthright and to explain a most unusual circumstance.
You seem to be ok to continue to point the finger at any whisper of a possibility that you are shadow boxing.
You need to take a look in the mirror as well.
Maybe you should have paid his tax bill.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#277 Post by Robert M yers » September 24th, 2019, 6:42 pm

If the wines eventually check out this whole thing will do nothing but increase the demand. Hipsters love a rogue hermit story and this thing has legend all over it.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#278 Post by Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » September 24th, 2019, 6:45 pm

I don’t understand the vitriol directed towards Robert. He’s been a champion of Benetiere and other artisanal producers, and I salute his passion and dedication to the niche.

I wouldn’t have been able to enjoy the wines without his efforts let alone his exceptional pricing. The antagonism is only going to drive people like him away from the community. I get that as consumers some people are worried over their purchases, but you as a consumer have recourse with your merchants.

Let’s keep it civil, and let’s retain the benefit of the doubt for the vigneron.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#279 Post by Robert M yers » September 24th, 2019, 6:50 pm

Faryan,
I can’t figure out who your talking about?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#280 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 24th, 2019, 7:12 pm

Well said, Faryan

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#281 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 24th, 2019, 8:05 pm

Conspiracy theories bring out the worst in the theorists.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#282 Post by Jeremy C » September 24th, 2019, 8:13 pm

RyanC wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Wow. Envoyer offering '15 Benetiere for $160/btl. I've never paid more than $75 for Cordeloux and I purchased '11 Dolium on release for $150.
Greg told me that his wines being offered are coming directly from the domaine.

Interesting that he claimed that they are the only ones currently available in the U. S. Robert, are you sold out?
Last edited by Jeremy C on September 25th, 2019, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#283 Post by jleedionne » September 25th, 2019, 4:34 am

Jeremy C wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 8:13 pm
RyanC wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Wow. Envoyer offering '15 Benetiere for $160/btl. I've never paid more than $75 for Cordeloux and I purchased '11 Dolium on release for $150.
Greg told me that his wines being offered are ex-domaine FWIW. Which would make sense, of course.

Interesting that he claimed that they are the only ones currently available in the U. S. Robert, are you sold out?
The above can mean a lot of things.
Pierre is known for being extremely unresponsive and difficult to deal with, so take anything you hear not too seriously.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#284 Post by Jeremy C » September 25th, 2019, 6:50 am

Hi Justin. I'm sorry, I'm not really following your point. What part of "the above" are you referencing?

Cheers,

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#285 Post by Robert Panzer » September 25th, 2019, 8:38 am

Fwiw, Envoyer has never bought wine from the Benetières, nor the CA importer la Grenouille/the Source.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#286 Post by Michael Lewis » September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm

This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#287 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm

Regarding the rule of 15, the 2011 Benetiere was crazy good three weeks ago.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#288 Post by RyanC » September 25th, 2019, 8:06 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm
Regarding the rule of 15, the 2011 Benetiere was crazy good three weeks ago.
The '11 Benetiere has always been crazy good. It was the first bottle of Benetiere I ever opened, and before I finished my first glass I had emailed Panzer asking for more of the '11 and '12 (the current vintages then).
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#289 Post by Markus S » September 26th, 2019, 4:36 am

Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
... 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way.
Under the present thread, sick is not the word you want to use. [cry.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#290 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 26th, 2019, 4:49 am

RyanC wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:06 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:04 pm
Regarding the rule of 15, the 2011 Benetiere was crazy good three weeks ago.
The '11 Benetiere has always been crazy good. It was the first bottle of Benetiere I ever opened, and before I finished my first glass I had emailed Panzer asking for more of the '11 and '12 (the current vintages then).
This.

But you can say this about many Northern Rhones. I have loved this vintage.

Levet. Gonon. Juge. Chave. Benetiere. All so excellent in this vintage.

I feel this way about 2011 Beaujolais as well.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#291 Post by Nathan V. » September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am

Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#292 Post by Markus S » September 26th, 2019, 6:40 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
It's always said that rules were meant to be broken. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received uany 2015 Benetiere yet?

#293 Post by M.Kaplan » September 26th, 2019, 7:28 am

While the so-called rule of 15 may have been a reasonable guide to aging Rhône reds in general (and Cornas, in particular) in the previous millennium, it hasn’t held true in this one.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received uany 2015 Benetiere yet?

#294 Post by Zachary Ross » September 26th, 2019, 7:59 am

M.Kaplan wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 7:28 am
While the so-called rule of 15 may have been a reasonable guide to aging Rhône reds in general (and Cornas, in particular) in the previous millennium, it hasn’t held true in this one.

Any thoughts as to why this may be the case?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#295 Post by Michael Lewis » September 26th, 2019, 10:26 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
I haven't had 2005 recently, but 2004 Reynard was on fire earlier this year. Hard to imagine that the 2005 could be drinking better at the moment, but if so then we are both in for a treat next weekend!
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received uany 2015 Benetiere yet?

#296 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 26th, 2019, 8:35 pm

Zachary Ross wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 7:59 am
M.Kaplan wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 7:28 am
While the so-called rule of 15 may have been a reasonable guide to aging Rhône reds in general (and Cornas, in particular) in the previous millennium, it hasn’t held true in this one.

Any thoughts as to why this may be the case?
Climate change. The wines are different from the start.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#297 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 26th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Michael Lewis wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 10:26 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
I haven't had 2005 recently, but 2004 Reynard was on fire earlier this year. Hard to imagine that the 2005 could be drinking better at the moment, but if so then we are both in for a treat next weekend!
2004 Chaillot also over a couple years. Probably had it three times from different cellars. Fantastic.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#298 Post by Nathan V. » September 27th, 2019, 6:15 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 10:58 pm
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 10:26 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am


It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
I haven't had 2005 recently, but 2004 Reynard was on fire earlier this year. Hard to imagine that the 2005 could be drinking better at the moment, but if so then we are both in for a treat next weekend!
2004 Chaillot also over a couple years. Probably had it three times from different cellars. Fantastic.
I had the 2004 and 2005 Chaillot on back-to-back nights several months back and the 2005 was clearly superior but the 2004 was still Allemand, ya know.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#299 Post by Alan Rath » September 27th, 2019, 4:11 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
And both are way too young
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#300 Post by Nathan V. » September 28th, 2019, 9:14 am

Alan Rath wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 4:11 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Michael Lewis wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:01 pm
This thread is fascinating. I will never understand why so many people are ignoring the Rule of 15 and drinking any Northern Rhone wines younger than 2004. 2004 Benetiere is sick these days, by the way. I hope to crack my first bottle of the 2015 sometime in 2030.
It never ceases to amaze me that the "rule of 15" has migrated from a NW wine lover on a small, niche wine BB to an international law of wine drinking. 2005 Allemand is much better than 2004 right now. I wish I had started drinking 2004s sooner.
And both are way too young
Not to my way of thinking.
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