Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#101 Post by Robert Panzer » August 12th, 2019, 9:26 am

I, too, thought that the issue had already been clarified, until Yaacov decided that it "didn't add up".
As to why not make a public forum the place to air the laundry, an understandable difference in personal discretion/preference.
Yaacov, I can appreciate your desire to understand the context of a most unusual situation, as well as your poor experience with tasting the wine exacerbating speculative concern.
Wine always has the only word that means anything, and I look forward to your guys pow wow to taste again.
Like I said, I have no doubts, which is why I invited a tasting, knowing full well that zee proof eez een zee poooding.
It is always good to get a Gritty into a thread.....
I also learned about that Dune fear quote....good shtuff.
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ybarselah
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#102 Post by ybarselah » August 12th, 2019, 11:01 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 7:27 am

It is a matter of staying current first and foremost with your standing/declarations with the douane (customs); if you don't, by default after a period of time, you then lose standing with the AOC.
curious about this and cursory googling didn't turn up anything. do you have any information on what customs paperwork needs to actually be filed? is this an annual thing like tax filings in the States? seems a very harsh result to lose AOC status in such a case. i found a reference that, for example, Pontet-Canet lost AOC status on their second wine but that wasn't because of paperwork, rather a panel tasting?

https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/pont ... atus-5392/
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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#103 Post by Robert Panzer » August 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm

I believe it is much more frequently than just annually.
I don't know precisely how many/how often, but from what growers tell me, the amount of compulsory paperwork has only increased, rendering what was already cumbersome plain oppressive.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that every time that you move wine (rack or move to tank), sulfur, treat the vineyards, top off barrels, discard/sell off in bulk, in essence any measurable action needs to be reported in quantitative terms.
I will try to ask about it more formally next time i'm over the pond.
Perhaps some euro growers can chime in?
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Robert M yers
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#104 Post by Robert M yers » August 12th, 2019, 9:29 pm

Well we could ask Ray to chime in...

ybarselah
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#105 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 10:11 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm
I believe it is much more frequently than just annually.
I don't know precisely how many/how often, but from what growers tell me, the amount of compulsory paperwork has only increased, rendering what was already cumbersome plain oppressive.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that every time that you move wine (rack or move to tank), sulfur, treat the vineyards, top off barrels, discard/sell off in bulk, in essence any measurable action needs to be reported in quantitative terms.
I will try to ask about it more formally next time i'm over the pond.
Perhaps some euro growers can chime in?
understood, thanks for the clarification. that does indeed seem onerous. so benetiere failed to do the above and that is the sole reason they were denied AOC status? wow.
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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#106 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 12:16 pm

It is somewhat like a license to do business, all paperwork current. Once/if that falls away, it is just a matter of time before you lose AOC status, as though you had died/no longer exist. Once you get square with the douane, you apply for and are then reinstated by the INAO, the agency that handles AOC status.
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ybarselah
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#107 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 1:54 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 12:16 pm
It is somewhat like a license to do business, all paperwork current. Once/if that falls away, it is just a matter of time before you lose AOC status, as though you had died/no longer exist. Once you get square with the douane, you apply for and are then reinstated by the INAO, the agency that handles AOC status.
so if you die/no longer exist, you're still able to sell wine as VdF (which is still obviously regulated)? And if so, how do those sales get accounted for?
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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#108 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 2:38 pm

If you are able to file regularly with the douane, you exist and aren't dead.
You can then sell wine as VdF (meaning your wine comes from anywhere in France whatsoever), unless you apply to the INAO to use more specific appellation status.
Call the French embassy.
They will get you in touch with someone who can satisfy your needs.
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ybarselah
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#109 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:38 pm
If you are able to file regularly with the douane, you exist and aren't dead.
You can then sell wine as VdF (meaning your wine comes from anywhere in France whatsoever), unless you apply to the INAO to use more specific appellation status.
Call the French embassy.
They will get you in touch with someone who can satisfy your needs.
so if i have this right, the ability to sell wine comes from douane but the ability to label a wine made in cote-rotie as AOC "cote-rotie" is determined by INAO through their local testers and lab samples (exclusively) - i.e., the actually bottled wine must conform to the standard set by INAO. whether that is allowed by INAO has nothing to do with the paperwork filed with douane - do they even speak with each other? so the de-classification can be done voluntarily by the producer or that decision is mandated by the INAO. this seems like cut-and-dried and part of everyday winemaking in France.
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D@vid Bu3ker
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#110 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Perhaps Yaacov, it’s time for you to interrogate Benetiere rather than Robert.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

ybarselah
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#111 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 4:35 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm
Perhaps Yaacov, it’s time for you to interrogate Benetiere rather than Robert.
he's the expert. and i don't speak french!
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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#112 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 5:37 pm

To the best of my knowledge, you have the right idea.
It is a fairly straightforward, cut and dry kind of thing, where your first standing is with the French national government in general, then the INAO for a more specific identity.
Like with appellation status in most countries, the producer always has the right to declassify, that is to say call a wine a lesser appellation (you can call declassify a 1er cru to a Bourgogne level or VdF wine or you can call an Auslese a Kabinett or an even lesser gutswein), but you can't bump a wine up the hierarchical ladder.
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Robert Panzer
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#113 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 5:41 pm

In America, any wholesaler must first be licensed by the Federal government with an importer's license, then one applies to the state in question for a state wholesalership. A relatively similar kind of tiered licensing process.
If one lost one's Federal license for whatever reason, one would then lose their state license.
Not apples to apples whatsoever, but an illustration to help you understand, and hopefully sleep at night (so that Gritty can haunt your dreams).
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