Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#201 Post by ybarselah » September 6th, 2019, 7:20 am

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#202 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 8:00 am

Robert M yers wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 12:22 am
John Morris wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 8:44 pm
Robert M yers wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 7:29 pm
If this is the story, why wasn’t the wine moved to an air conditioned location? Needn’t be 55 or anything, someone’s basement or house with ac would have worked. We aren’t talking that many cases here are we? Seems odd for the winemaker to let that happen, most of us here panic at 70 something, but that would have been fine for a season.
Have you ever visited small producers in the Rhone or Burgundy? And there is not a lot of AC in France, at least this far north. Plus, this was a freakishly hot summer.
No, but a winemaker would certainly know the risks of severe heat, which is why I find that explanation hard to believe. If the heat wave was coming wouldn’t they call the importers who had already bought the wine and say “We have a problem coming here, better make arrangements to get this wine to a place that’s safer” I can’t believe they’d let all their hard work be ruined without an effort at least, it’s not as though a winemaker wouldn’t be following the weather or anything.
It's not like, say, Napa, where all wineries are air-conditioned throughout and AC is pretty universal in homes and restaurants. European winemakers have generally had passive cellars, and they have not focused too much on temperatures. (Sometimes they have to heat up cellars to get malolactic fermentation to start.) That's generally been fine -- the cellars were cool enough. (We Americans tend to be neurotic about temperatures.) Also, electricity prices are much, much higher in Europe, so temp control is expensive.

In this case, it seems he had a lot of back inventory, and may well have been stretched for cash as a consequence. I would wonder if there's even any temperature-controlled storage available for rent in Ampuis.

If you've visited small producers in France, it's easy to understand how, in the circumstances, there might have been storage issues.

For context, an estimated 15,000 older people died in France in 2003 during a heat wave because they didn't have AC and became dehydrated.
Last edited by John Morris on September 6th, 2019, 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#203 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 8:03 am

c fu wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 9:28 pm
John Morris wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 8:44 pm
. . . . Plus, this was a freakishly hot summer.
Wines left before the heat wave though
That's good news!
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#204 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 6th, 2019, 9:51 am

FYI, the 2011 Cordeloux was magical last night. Swept a fine field in my blind tasting group.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#205 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 6th, 2019, 10:54 am

John Morris wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 8:03 am
c fu wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 9:28 pm
John Morris wrote:
September 5th, 2019, 8:44 pm
. . . . Plus, this was a freakishly hot summer.
Wines left before the heat wave though
That's good news!
You need to look at the temps before what they considered the heat wave. Heat wave temperatures were routinely above 100F, and sometimes a lot above that. A normal day in June in Cote Rotie could still easily have been in the 80s.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#206 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 6th, 2019, 10:57 am

People seem to be assuming that the winery warms up to outside high temp instantaneously.

I have not been to Benetiere, but I visited un-air-conditioned cellars in France and Germany when it was freakishly hot, and most were still quite cool. None were hot.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#207 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 11:16 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
People seem to be assuming that the winery warms up to outside high temp instantaneously.

I have not been to Benetiere, but I visited un-air-conditioned cellars in France and Germany when it was freakishly hot, and most were still quite cool. None were hot.
I wasn't assuming that. But if he had several vintages of inventory, it's quite possible it didn't all fit in the coolest part of the cellar/building. And, as Jonathan said, even without heatwaves, it can be pretty warm in the Rhone -- even the Northern Rhone -- in the summer.

It's been some years since I was in the Northern Rhone, but apart from Guigal, Jaboulet, Charpoutier and Rostaing, I never saw a modern or deep cellar. Most were just basements at best, and not far below grade. That includes Clape, Verset, Gentaz, Allemand, Jasmin, Champet and others.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#208 Post by c fu » September 6th, 2019, 11:41 am

John Morris wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 11:16 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
People seem to be assuming that the winery warms up to outside high temp instantaneously.

I have not been to Benetiere, but I visited un-air-conditioned cellars in France and Germany when it was freakishly hot, and most were still quite cool. None were hot.
I wasn't assuming that. But if he had several vintages of inventory, it's quite possible it didn't all fit in the coolest part of the cellar/building. And, as Jonathan said, even without heatwaves, it can be pretty warm in the Rhone -- even the Northern Rhone -- in the summer.

It's been some years since I was in the Northern Rhone, but apart from Guigal, Jaboulet, Charpoutier and Rostaing, I never saw a modern or deep cellar. Most were just basements at best, and not far below grade. That includes Clape, Verset, Gentaz, Allemand, Jasmin, Champet and others.
I was thinking about this re: extra inventory due to the delays.

So he makes 3 wines - Cordeloux, Dolium, Condreau.

Before the 2015s were shipped out in June of 2019 he conceivably had the below wines in his cellar.

- 2015 Cordeloux, 2015 Condrieu, 2016 Condrieu, 2014 Dolium, 2013 Dolium.

- 2014 Cordeloux and 2014 Condrieu were not made. The 2016 Cordeloux wasn't bottled until August.

The bulk of his production is Cordeloux. He makes roughly 400 bottles of Dolium (maybe less - according to Polaner only 1 barrel is bottled) and 600-700 bottles of Condrieu each year (one 400L barrel - used to be 2000+ bottles but he reduced his holdings in 2013 from 1.0HA to .2 HA). So give or take he was storing an extra 1000-1300 bottles of wine.

Is that enough to necessitate moving wine to auxiliary parts of the cellar? Sounds like only 2-3 extra pallets of wine. But I have no clue how his large his storage area is.

Maybe someone can find out from Polaner what they saw that was so alarming - but at the time of their recent vintage, all the backlog had been cleared out. Did Polaner believe Benetiere's storage conditions in general were poor? If that's the case, wouldn't the impact been felt in prior vintages? Or did they ask "hey where'd you store our purchases" and Pierre showed them some auxiliary area that the wines were stored and it was very unsatisfactory.


Alright. who do i bill this .4 to.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#209 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 12:04 pm

c fu wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 11:41 am
Alright. who do i bill this .4 to.
[rofl.gif]

What do you think the ~28% of Berserkers who are lawyers have collectively charged clients for their time here?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#210 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm

Fu, stop writing off so much time. That feels like a 1.2

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#211 Post by ybarselah » September 6th, 2019, 12:54 pm

fu is finally scratching the itch. good post.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#212 Post by c fu » September 6th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm
Fu, stop writing off so much time. That feels like a 1.2
I’ve always been told I under bill for tasks.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#213 Post by patrick c albright » September 6th, 2019, 1:40 pm

c fu wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm
Fu, stop writing off so much time. That feels like a 1.2
I’ve always been told I under bill for tasks.
An expensive post and you still misspelled pallets.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#214 Post by c fu » September 6th, 2019, 1:45 pm

patrick c albright wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:40 pm
c fu wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm
Fu, stop writing off so much time. That feels like a 1.2
I’ve always been told I under bill for tasks.
An expensive post and you still misspelled pallets.
This is why I underbill.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#215 Post by Robert Panzer » September 6th, 2019, 1:53 pm

A few things.
Firstly, I fear that by giving so much attention to elements of the discussion here, that I am in a certain way validating speculation, like some kind of pandora's box of potential issues/conspiracies.
Secondly, there is no auxiliary storage area. It is the same space in his cuverie as it has always been.
Thirdly, I just got off the phone with Pierre. It seems that his Parisian agent was by earlier this week. They opened and followed the '15 Cordeloux and '13 Dolium both at the winery and then hours later at a restaurant that allowed them to bring their own bottles. The agent very much enjoyed the wines, and placed an order for some 800 bottles. This is the same agent who represents Thierry Allemand, Stéphane Tissot, Freddy Mugnier, Dom de Marcoux, as well as other not-too-shabby growers, principally in gastronomy level restaurants. I take this as another sign of confidence in what is in the bottle, to the day, as this gentleman is no fool.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#216 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 2:33 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:53 pm
Firstly, I fear that by giving so much attention to elements of the discussion here, that I am in a certain way validating speculation, like some kind of pandora's box of potential issues/conspiracies.
Speculate? Berserkers speculate without knowledge? Mais non! [wink.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#217 Post by Markus S » September 6th, 2019, 2:50 pm

This is turning into the PC thread: not-so subtle innuendos of wrong doing, secret cabals hiding the Truth about a wine, importers who stab each other's backs, pontificating by people that do not know, the 'prophets' warning of what is to come, storm clouds gathering, epic, truly epic events will come to pass. We will all find out soon enough.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#218 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 2:52 pm

In other words, your typical Berserkers thread!

Of course, in the case of Premier Cru, all the rumors turned out to be true. I doubt that's the case here.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#219 Post by ybarselah » September 6th, 2019, 4:18 pm

John Morris wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 2:52 pm
In other words, your typical Berserkers thread!

Of course, in the case of Premier Cru, all the rumors turned out to be true. I doubt that's the case here.
except in the PC thread, the only rumor was it was a ponzi scheme.

what's the rumor here? all we have here are two facts... "something is wrong" (one of the importers) vs "nothing is wrong" (one of the importers)
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#220 Post by Scott G r u n e r » September 6th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Polaner is recalling to then resell at higher margins
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#221 Post by John Morris » September 6th, 2019, 4:58 pm

ybarselah wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 4:18 pm
John Morris wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 2:52 pm
In other words, your typical Berserkers thread!

Of course, in the case of Premier Cru, all the rumors turned out to be true. I doubt that's the case here.
except in the PC thread, the only rumor was it was a ponzi scheme.

what's the rumor here? all we have here are two facts... "something is wrong" (one of the importers) vs "nothing is wrong" (one of the importers)
Back during the PC thread, a friend in California told me that an accountant who claimed some knowledge told my friend that PC was a money-laundering front. I laughed, because money launderers' problem is an excess of cash.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#222 Post by J e s s e C » September 6th, 2019, 8:56 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm
Fu, stop writing off so much time. That feels like a 1.2
I respectfully disagree. With his name, he should be converting to square or cubic footage of additional storage, and doing it in .3.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#223 Post by ybarselah » September 7th, 2019, 10:25 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:53 pm
A few things.
Firstly, I fear that by giving so much attention to elements of the discussion here, that I am in a certain way validating speculation, like some kind of pandora's box of potential issues/conspiracies.
i think that's correct. but it was easily avoidable. you were attempting to explain at the same time as information was coming out, and it's unclear even now when you had some of this information and when you didn't. and to be as clear as possible, i'm not blaming you.

it was way back in late may that we first heard of the labeling issues that would start to explain the delay. that information came from polaner and you seemed to have it as well as you responded right after i posted it. here we are several months later and no one has laid out exactly what happened to the wine. what's ultimately frustrating - and which of course feeds all of the speculations - is that this should all be very easily verifiable.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#224 Post by c fu » September 7th, 2019, 9:50 pm

Drinking the 13 & 14 Dolium right now with Ryan Curry and Gaurav. These wines came over the same time as the 2015 Cordeloux through Panzer.

Wines are great. Pure fruit on both. 13 has more structure and weight. 14 has a spicy stem and great acid.

Drank a 2008 allemand Reynard that seemed almost clunky next to their purity.

Both had 8 hours in the decanter then a hour in bottle. Re opened with the guys and drinking over the last 3 hours. Opening up more and more through the night.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#225 Post by Travis Fantz » September 8th, 2019, 9:10 am

I just love the fact that you were able to buy so many of those you opened it just for science.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#226 Post by J. Galang » September 9th, 2019, 7:15 am

c fu wrote:
September 7th, 2019, 9:50 pm
Drinking the 13 & 14 Dolium right now with Ryan Curry and Gaurav. These wines came over the same time as the 2015 Cordeloux through Panzer.

Wines are great. Pure fruit on both. 13 has more structure and weight. 14 has a spicy stem and great acid.

Drank a 2008 allemand Reynard that seemed almost clunky next to their purity.

Both had 8 hours in the decanter then a hour in bottle. Re opened with the guys and drinking over the last 3 hours. Opening up more and more through the night.

1D6FBAA0-85F6-46D4-990B-F4AA3D7EC4D5.jpeg
Good to know these showed well.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#227 Post by c fu » September 9th, 2019, 11:17 am

Travis Fantz wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 9:10 am
I just love the fact that you were able to buy so many of those you opened it just for science.
Lol.

I wish. Very meager. But still doing it for science

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#228 Post by ybarselah » September 23rd, 2019, 9:22 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:53 pm
A few things.
Firstly, I fear that by giving so much attention to elements of the discussion here, that I am in a certain way validating speculation, like some kind of pandora's box of potential issues/conspiracies.
Secondly, there is no auxiliary storage area. It is the same space in his cuverie as it has always been.
Thirdly, I just got off the phone with Pierre. It seems that his Parisian agent was by earlier this week. They opened and followed the '15 Cordeloux and '13 Dolium both at the winery and then hours later at a restaurant that allowed them to bring their own bottles. The agent very much enjoyed the wines, and placed an order for some 800 bottles. This is the same agent who represents Thierry Allemand, Stéphane Tissot, Freddy Mugnier, Dom de Marcoux, as well as other not-too-shabby growers, principally in gastronomy level restaurants. I take this as another sign of confidence in what is in the bottle, to the day, as this gentleman is no fool.
curious if you have any updates here, Robert? especially on the storage issue (or non-issue as it may be?)

anyone else try the wines on either coast?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#229 Post by c fu » September 23rd, 2019, 10:07 am

ybarselah wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 9:22 am
Robert Panzer wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 1:53 pm
A few things.
Firstly, I fear that by giving so much attention to elements of the discussion here, that I am in a certain way validating speculation, like some kind of pandora's box of potential issues/conspiracies.
Secondly, there is no auxiliary storage area. It is the same space in his cuverie as it has always been.
Thirdly, I just got off the phone with Pierre. It seems that his Parisian agent was by earlier this week. They opened and followed the '15 Cordeloux and '13 Dolium both at the winery and then hours later at a restaurant that allowed them to bring their own bottles. The agent very much enjoyed the wines, and placed an order for some 800 bottles. This is the same agent who represents Thierry Allemand, Stéphane Tissot, Freddy Mugnier, Dom de Marcoux, as well as other not-too-shabby growers, principally in gastronomy level restaurants. I take this as another sign of confidence in what is in the bottle, to the day, as this gentleman is no fool.
curious if you have any updates here, Robert? especially on the storage issue (or non-issue as it may be?)

anyone else try the wines on either coast?
Talked to someone last week at dinner that has visited the domaine fairly recently and sells the wine.

He said the domaine is pretty standard. You open up a basement door and go below grade into the cellar.

When I asked if he thought it was sub optimal storage conditions. He said it’s just like any other small domaine in France. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Seems if you want someone to prove a positive that it is sub optimal storage, might have to rely on Polaner to elaborate on their claim.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#230 Post by ybarselah » September 23rd, 2019, 10:10 am

c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:07 am


Seems if you want someone to prove a positive that it is sub optimal storage, might have to rely on Polaner to elaborate on their claim.
trying to just that. and to be clear, i don't think there's any good evidence that storage is the issue here at all. i've never been to the domaine, but your friend's take seems totally reasonable.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#231 Post by Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am

Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#232 Post by Markus S » September 23rd, 2019, 12:28 pm

Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
Most 15's I've had have been goopy-soups. They all share this characteristic.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#233 Post by Ramon C » September 23rd, 2019, 1:07 pm

Adding on the Faryan’s note above, the ’15 Benetiere Syrah (Polaner) we had in this dinner is unlike other Benetiere Cordeloux vintages I’ve had. While, it’s a wine that I would not mind revisiting in the future, but it definitely was not cut in the same mold as, nor at par with, the ’12 Benetiere that we also had.

First, the texture – the ‘15 lacked the smooth texture that I’ve experienced with the ’12 and with other Cordeloux vintages. Secondly, elegance – even young Cordeloux exhibit syrah elegance, which the ’15 didn’t show. Thirdly, the ‘15s bouquet didn’t have the soulful nose of the ’12 that reminds you that this is a Northern Rhone syrah in the traditional mode.

As for the rest of the wines, my preferred wines that night were the ’04 Sorrel “Le Greal”, the ’12 Benetiere Cordeloux, the ’14 Gonon SJ, and the ‘91 Guigal B-et-B. Also enjoyed the ’14 Juge, not as much as the earlier-mentione 4 wines. I’ve not had a lot of experiences with Levet, but the ’16 “Journaries” seemed to show relatively more glossiness and pronounced oakiness. Needs time?

We started with a refreshingly-good Godme “Sabine” Blanc-de-Noirs. Then we were poured blind a white that nobody guessed. It was the 2004 Chateau Brown from Pessac-Leognan. I quite enjoyed this wine, but was very surprised as I thought it looked and tasted older than 2004.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#234 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 1:10 pm

Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
I was also at the dinner and agree with Faryan's notes. When I opened the Benetiere, I got what I thought was a solid whiff of VA, but I didn't drink it (partially because I don't like to drink at work!) to avoid having a data point the rest of the people at the table did not. The VA certainly subsided by the time we had it for dinner, and I do not think it is a "flawed wine". While I did not particularly enjoy it, if I ordered it at a restaurant and got it I wouldn't send it back based on this bottle. I'm also the one that followed it the next day (and also took it to a large tasting and shared it with a few people). I don't think it got any better - it felt older and the VA got maybe a touch more pronounced.
All that said, it's a 15, and I find this a tough vintage to evaluate young (and have slight concerns it's a bit too solar for my palate generally). I was at a dinner where we opened a 15 Chavaroche, and a professional reviewer thought it was a grapey wine that just wasn't very good. I'm not selling my 15 Levet.

As for the other wines - I loved the 04 Sorrel Le Greal and thought the 12 Benetiere (so different from the 15!) and the 14 Gonon were also really good. The Juge and Guigal were just below those for me, though also very good (I remain slightly less a fan of Juge than others, which continues to do serous harm to my hipster cred).
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#235 Post by c fu » September 23rd, 2019, 2:26 pm

Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#236 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 2:33 pm

c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:26 pm
Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#237 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 23rd, 2019, 2:49 pm

At this dinner we were all varied as to which red wines we liked best—most putting Sorrel near top, Zak and I Juge-nerds putting that at the top too unlike the rest of the group—but we all thought the ‘15 Benetiere was the weakest red wine on the table or at least was showing the weakest. And Greg gave it the benefit of the doubt by giving a day of air. Last time I gave a Benetiere CR a day to open, the ‘13 Cordeloux, it was stunning on day 2.

Granted, it’s one bottle, but we were/are all in unity. And we all wanted it to be awesome because it’s Benetiere.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#238 Post by ybarselah » September 23rd, 2019, 4:10 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:49 pm
And we all wanted it to be awesome because it’s Benetiere.
that's the money quote right there. same same same.

given JLL's note mentioned VA, this seems like a ... thing.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#239 Post by Zachary Ross » September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm

Juge for President!
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#240 Post by Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » September 23rd, 2019, 5:25 pm

c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:26 pm
Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:42 am
Against my better judgment given how contentious this post seems to have been, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion.

A few NYers gathered last week to try the 15 Cordeloux. We consumed over a dinner alongside some peers ('12 Cordeloux, '14 Juge, '14 Gonon St Joe, a blind '16 Levet Journaries, an '04 Sorrel Greal, and a '91 Guigal BeB). The '15 Cordeloux was double decanted around 2-230pm and opened for consumption ~8pm. It was followed by one of the diners the following day as well. The wine was a Polaner bottle.

Now that the table has been set, the results were disappointing to my palate. The wine was monolithic purple and the flavor profile was one-note plummy. I've had young/blind Benetiere in the past and noted more of the expression that Robert highlights in his posts, namely red fruits like rasberry and hints at the cluster-funk. This wine, if served blind, would be hard to pin down as Rhone as it really lacked typicity to me. Mind you, we had the '16 Levet which was also very purple (albeit more fecal), but I've never had a young Levet that I've liked and am amazed at the wonderful transformation they make with age. Benetiere's wines, to my palate, demonstrate more of what makes them so special, in their youth. As a comparison, the '12 was singing with all of the good stuff. Maybe not the best vintage in terms of depth/tenor/ageability, but in such a sweet spot. Could this be a function of vintage? I haven't had enough '15 N Rhone to say. I won't speculate beyond that.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#241 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 23rd, 2019, 5:30 pm

Wish you’d post more, Faryan! Miss your input around these here parts, always insightful.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#242 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 23rd, 2019, 5:32 pm

Zachary Ross wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm
Juge for President!
I’d prop him up like Bernie Lomax if that could get us another vintage, but reputedly, that was 2015.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#243 Post by Markus S » September 23rd, 2019, 5:40 pm

ybarselah wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 4:10 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:49 pm
And we all wanted it to be awesome because it’s Benetiere.
that's the money quote right there. same same same.

given JLL's note mentioned VA, this seems like a ... thing.
So the New Yorkers have spoken...complete crap then.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#244 Post by Zachary Ross » September 23rd, 2019, 6:10 pm

Markus S wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:40 pm
ybarselah wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 4:10 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:49 pm
And we all wanted it to be awesome because it’s Benetiere.
that's the money quote right there. same same same.

given JLL's note mentioned VA, this seems like a ... thing.
So the New Yorkers have spoken...complete crap then.


We are the arbiters of utter and complete crap.

Actually no one is saying that, just that the wine didn't really impress and suffered in comparison to its peers. To me it seemed hollow, damn tannic, and roasted. Not entirely unlike crankier Northern Rhone wines from 2015, though for most of those that I have tried (a lot) there at least has been a swathe of rich fruit glossing over the whole package, which this did not exhibit. Then again, the '16 Levet Journaries wasn't so great either - simple, spherical, grapey, like an average (St.) Joe and nothing more - and I feel pretty confident that this will turn out just fine with age.

For the evening I'd rank the wines: 14 Juge, 04 Sorrel Gréal (v. close), 12 Benetiere, 14 Gonon, 91 Guigal BeB, [happy zone ends], 16 Levet Journaries, 15 Benetiere.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#245 Post by c fu » September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm

Zachary Ross wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm
Juge for President!
My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#246 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 7:35 pm

Markus S wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:40 pm
ybarselah wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 4:10 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 2:49 pm
And we all wanted it to be awesome because it’s Benetiere.
that's the money quote right there. same same same.

given JLL's note mentioned VA, this seems like a ... thing.
So the New Yorkers have spoken...complete crap then.
As Zach said, that’s not the case. I wasn’t thrilled with it on day 2, but it was also by no means terrible either. People to whom I poured the benetiere and the Levet likes the Levet more on day 2, but they weren’t the same vintage.

Given the pedigree of the producer, I think the conclusion to make is - make your own decision :)
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#247 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm

c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm
Zachary Ross wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm
Juge for President!
My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#248 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 23rd, 2019, 9:47 pm

Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm
c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm
Zachary Ross wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm
Juge for President!
My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
Agree with everything after “In retrospect not the worst idea.” Been underwhelmed by or just didn’t care for almost every ‘15 I’ve tried except Gilles Cornas. But the profiles even of the ones that I didn’t like so much were very different than the Benetiere we had last week.

Good ‘14s though have been drinking well since release, and the Juge and Gonon we had were happy dinner companions. Much rather be drinking ‘14s today than ‘15s. A couple ‘14 Texiers yesterday were delicious - straight St-Julien-En-St-Alban and Pergaud Brezeme. The latter is such a sweet spot wine for my palate: old vines Serine planted on limestone.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#249 Post by Greg K » September 23rd, 2019, 10:26 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 9:47 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm
c fu wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 6:51 pm


My friend tasted 15 juge on release and hated it so much he sold all the bottles he bought. The 15 Juge was so "un juge" like on release that rumors started to swirl he didn't make the wine.

Interesting you guys didn't slot in any other 2015s.
In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
Agree with everything after “In retrospect not the worst idea.” Been underwhelmed by or just didn’t care for almost every ‘15 I’ve tried except Gilles Cornas. But the profiles even of the ones that I didn’t like so much were very different than the Benetiere we had last week.

Good ‘14s though have been drinking well since release, and the Juge and Gonon we had were happy dinner companions. Much rather be drinking ‘14s today than ‘15s. A couple ‘14 Texiers yesterday were delicious - straight St-Julien-En-St-Alban and Pergaud Brezeme. The latter is such a sweet spot wine for my palate: old vines Serine planted on limestone.
I meant from a research perspective, not from an entertainment perspective. It might have placed the Benetiere in a better overall context.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#250 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 23rd, 2019, 10:55 pm

Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 10:26 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 9:47 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 7:37 pm


In retrospect not the worst idea, but to be perfectly honest, would have made for a considerably less enjoyable dinner. I don’t think young 15s are drinking well, which includes some heavyweights like Jamet and Chave.
Agree with everything after “In retrospect not the worst idea.” Been underwhelmed by or just didn’t care for almost every ‘15 I’ve tried except Gilles Cornas. But the profiles even of the ones that I didn’t like so much were very different than the Benetiere we had last week.

Good ‘14s though have been drinking well since release, and the Juge and Gonon we had were happy dinner companions. Much rather be drinking ‘14s today than ‘15s. A couple ‘14 Texiers yesterday were delicious - straight St-Julien-En-St-Alban and Pergaud Brezeme. The latter is such a sweet spot wine for my palate: old vines Serine planted on limestone.
I meant from a research perspective, not from an entertainment perspective. It might have placed the Benetiere in a better overall context.
I understood.

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