Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#101 Post by Robert Panzer » August 12th, 2019, 9:26 am

I, too, thought that the issue had already been clarified, until Yaacov decided that it "didn't add up".
As to why not make a public forum the place to air the laundry, an understandable difference in personal discretion/preference.
Yaacov, I can appreciate your desire to understand the context of a most unusual situation, as well as your poor experience with tasting the wine exacerbating speculative concern.
Wine always has the only word that means anything, and I look forward to your guys pow wow to taste again.
Like I said, I have no doubts, which is why I invited a tasting, knowing full well that zee proof eez een zee poooding.
It is always good to get a Gritty into a thread.....
I also learned about that Dune fear quote....good shtuff.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#102 Post by ybarselah » August 12th, 2019, 11:01 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 7:27 am

It is a matter of staying current first and foremost with your standing/declarations with the douane (customs); if you don't, by default after a period of time, you then lose standing with the AOC.
curious about this and cursory googling didn't turn up anything. do you have any information on what customs paperwork needs to actually be filed? is this an annual thing like tax filings in the States? seems a very harsh result to lose AOC status in such a case. i found a reference that, for example, Pontet-Canet lost AOC status on their second wine but that wasn't because of paperwork, rather a panel tasting?

https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/pont ... atus-5392/
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#103 Post by Robert Panzer » August 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm

I believe it is much more frequently than just annually.
I don't know precisely how many/how often, but from what growers tell me, the amount of compulsory paperwork has only increased, rendering what was already cumbersome plain oppressive.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that every time that you move wine (rack or move to tank), sulfur, treat the vineyards, top off barrels, discard/sell off in bulk, in essence any measurable action needs to be reported in quantitative terms.
I will try to ask about it more formally next time i'm over the pond.
Perhaps some euro growers can chime in?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#104 Post by Robert M yers » August 12th, 2019, 9:29 pm

Well we could ask Ray to chime in...

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#105 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 10:11 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm
I believe it is much more frequently than just annually.
I don't know precisely how many/how often, but from what growers tell me, the amount of compulsory paperwork has only increased, rendering what was already cumbersome plain oppressive.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that every time that you move wine (rack or move to tank), sulfur, treat the vineyards, top off barrels, discard/sell off in bulk, in essence any measurable action needs to be reported in quantitative terms.
I will try to ask about it more formally next time i'm over the pond.
Perhaps some euro growers can chime in?
understood, thanks for the clarification. that does indeed seem onerous. so benetiere failed to do the above and that is the sole reason they were denied AOC status? wow.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#106 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 12:16 pm

It is somewhat like a license to do business, all paperwork current. Once/if that falls away, it is just a matter of time before you lose AOC status, as though you had died/no longer exist. Once you get square with the douane, you apply for and are then reinstated by the INAO, the agency that handles AOC status.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#107 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 1:54 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 12:16 pm
It is somewhat like a license to do business, all paperwork current. Once/if that falls away, it is just a matter of time before you lose AOC status, as though you had died/no longer exist. Once you get square with the douane, you apply for and are then reinstated by the INAO, the agency that handles AOC status.
so if you die/no longer exist, you're still able to sell wine as VdF (which is still obviously regulated)? And if so, how do those sales get accounted for?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#108 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 2:38 pm

If you are able to file regularly with the douane, you exist and aren't dead.
You can then sell wine as VdF (meaning your wine comes from anywhere in France whatsoever), unless you apply to the INAO to use more specific appellation status.
Call the French embassy.
They will get you in touch with someone who can satisfy your needs.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#109 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:38 pm
If you are able to file regularly with the douane, you exist and aren't dead.
You can then sell wine as VdF (meaning your wine comes from anywhere in France whatsoever), unless you apply to the INAO to use more specific appellation status.
Call the French embassy.
They will get you in touch with someone who can satisfy your needs.
so if i have this right, the ability to sell wine comes from douane but the ability to label a wine made in cote-rotie as AOC "cote-rotie" is determined by INAO through their local testers and lab samples (exclusively) - i.e., the actually bottled wine must conform to the standard set by INAO. whether that is allowed by INAO has nothing to do with the paperwork filed with douane - do they even speak with each other? so the de-classification can be done voluntarily by the producer or that decision is mandated by the INAO. this seems like cut-and-dried and part of everyday winemaking in France.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#110 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Perhaps Yaacov, it’s time for you to interrogate Benetiere rather than Robert.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#111 Post by ybarselah » August 13th, 2019, 4:35 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm
Perhaps Yaacov, it’s time for you to interrogate Benetiere rather than Robert.
he's the expert. and i don't speak french!
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#112 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 5:37 pm

To the best of my knowledge, you have the right idea.
It is a fairly straightforward, cut and dry kind of thing, where your first standing is with the French national government in general, then the INAO for a more specific identity.
Like with appellation status in most countries, the producer always has the right to declassify, that is to say call a wine a lesser appellation (you can call declassify a 1er cru to a Bourgogne level or VdF wine or you can call an Auslese a Kabinett or an even lesser gutswein), but you can't bump a wine up the hierarchical ladder.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#113 Post by Robert Panzer » August 13th, 2019, 5:41 pm

In America, any wholesaler must first be licensed by the Federal government with an importer's license, then one applies to the state in question for a state wholesalership. A relatively similar kind of tiered licensing process.
If one lost one's Federal license for whatever reason, one would then lose their state license.
Not apples to apples whatsoever, but an illustration to help you understand, and hopefully sleep at night (so that Gritty can haunt your dreams).
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#114 Post by JG Salazar » August 29th, 2019, 12:35 pm

Turns out, Yaacov was right.

I'm currently in the process of getting any 2015 Benetiere we did sell back for credit/exchange, and have sent remaining inventory back to the local distributor. This isn't an isolated occurrence, as multiple wine professionals in my orbit have voiced similar concerns and either passed on their allocations or sent it back as well. It remains to be seen what's actually going on at the winery, but something ain't right.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#115 Post by ryancurry » August 29th, 2019, 2:08 pm

That is certainly concerning...
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#116 Post by c fu » August 29th, 2019, 2:25 pm

ryancurry wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 2:08 pm
That is certainly concerning...
guess we're gonna have to try one ourselves this weekend. See if it's a Polaner batch issue or a winery wide issue.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#117 Post by Markus S » August 29th, 2019, 2:43 pm

JG Salazar wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 12:35 pm
Turns out, Yaacov was right.
Right in what way: the tasting? the inquisitor?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#118 Post by Robert Panzer » August 29th, 2019, 5:12 pm

I drove through rush hour traffic to my warehouse to get a few bottles to taste, once again, to see if my very nice first experience of the bottles I imported was a fluke.
Not at all....
This bottle is showing even better out the chute than the bottle I tried a month ago.
The cork is pristine.
The color is spot on.
The wine's aromatics are even more expressive on pop and pour than before, whole cluster spice/funk and violet pastille character even more in place than a month ago when it was more reductive/grumpy. In hyper-sensitive connoisseur/pro fashion, I can tell that there is some VA, but quite subtle, and I am quite sensitive to VA and brett.
It is texturally silky, with intense floral violets dominating in flavor, with dark berry/ripe raspberry toned fruit.
It is very elegant and harmonized.
We (my wife and I) are following it over a light dinner of wild rice, sauteed swiss chard w garlic, and sauteed mushrooms.
My wife, who is a welcome relief to my hyper sophisticate sensibilities, can't possibly imagine what problem people have with this wine. When she smelled it, she said it smells nicely fruited with a spice/leather component (the whole cluster...). In the mouth, silky and delicious.
I do not wish to discount the experiences of others.
But based on what I have now tasted twice, this is gorgeous wine, in Pierre's finessed style.
Time will tell what is going on with the Polaner bottles.
But the ones that I have, at least from two different cases that I have tasted, are terrific.
Not knowing the details of the handling for Polaner, my bottles were reefer imported, then driven down from the same facility where Polaner has their stuff arrive in my vehicle in the cool, directly to my cold warehouse.
I have also brought bottles of '13/'14 Dolium home to taste, as well as a '15 Riollement.
I will add those tasting notes when I get there.
Fu will be chiming in sooner than later, I imagine, as he will have the same lineup in his possession tomorrow.
Respect to Pierre.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#119 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Thanks for sharing, Robert

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#120 Post by David_K » August 29th, 2019, 5:39 pm

Narrator: he doubled down.

[popcorn.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#121 Post by Robert Panzer » August 29th, 2019, 6:05 pm

Fwiw, a friend and lifelong wine lover who got a few bottles from my load tasted the wine over two days. He knows Yaacov well from his days in the Philadelphia area when they would taste frequently together.
His name is Dave Mosko.
He gave me his blow by blow tasting impressions.
At the end of his summary, in which he seemed a bit underwhelmed by the wine's understated personality, I asked him:
"Do you think the wine is "problematic" as Mr Barselah does?".
His reply:
"I don't see any flaws whatsoever."
Again, just a data point.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#122 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 29th, 2019, 6:06 pm

I know Dave! He’s a pretty good taster.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#123 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » August 29th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Although it had been many many years since our last dinner together, I had dinner with Dave about a year ago. He is a fine taster. Then I stopped by Rob's shop on my way out of town and picked up my then in-stock goodies to take home in my checked luggage. Of course, at that time my 2015 Benetiere was still in France. Small world, and thanks for all the info on this curious situation. [cheers.gif]

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#124 Post by DanielP » August 29th, 2019, 6:14 pm

https://www.lapassionduvin.com/forum/rh ... u?start=60

Posts on the French wine forum are independently consistent with what Robert has stated previously. Unless of course, he's posting there as well neener
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#125 Post by ybarselah » August 30th, 2019, 7:58 am

Dave Mosko!!!!

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#126 Post by Hart G » August 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

edited to save you from my breaking news.
Last edited by Hart G on August 30th, 2019, 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#127 Post by c fu » August 30th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Hart G wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 11:55 am
Polaner, the NY/NJ importer, just recalled all of the 2015 Benetiere Cordeloux from retailers.
Welcome to yesterday Hart. Lol
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#128 Post by Hart G » August 30th, 2019, 12:19 pm

c fu wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 12:06 pm
Hart G wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 11:55 am
Polaner, the NY/NJ importer, just recalled all of the 2015 Benetiere Cordeloux from retailers.
Welcome to yesterday Hart. Lol
[help.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#129 Post by David_K » August 31st, 2019, 8:12 am

God if Polaner's lot is bad and Panzer's sound we'll never hear the end of it. Please let it not be true
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#130 Post by c fu » August 31st, 2019, 9:22 am

David_K wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 8:12 am
God if Polaner's lot is bad and Panzer's sound we'll never hear the end of it. Please let it not be true
Ok.

So this thread obviously had me concerned so I called Panzer and asked for the wine to be shipped priority overnight to me (the most expensive 2015 Benetiere post shipping lol).

Left his possession around 6:30EST and arrived to me at 9am pst. Sat in my storage facility joint area until I went to go grab it around 3pm PST.

I also had Panzer ship me a couple other Benetiere. Really interesting seeing the new labels on top of the old ones for all the wines made in 14 and 15, even the white wines are VDF, same as the Dolium.

I initially wanted to go right when it arrived and decant it for when I was meeting some friends at the local wine bar but Panzer’s most recent note made me think to pop and pour



I’d say pop and pour would be a mistake on this wine. Color was a vibrant purple.

Audience for the tasting: two Benetiere lovers, another two N. Rhone lovers and the wine buyer at the store (level 3 advanced somm).

It was very clunky, disjointed, alcoholic and raisny ripe fruit initially. No one liked it. So I dumped it into the decanter and we moved into our other wines (2014 Hubert lignier morey st Denis 1ers are absolute FIRE right now by the way).

About 2 hours later I tried the wine again. Still a beautiful purple color
007987D0-AF62-4F99-B9F8-944C89FAA827.jpeg

Wine has completely changed. It started to shed that alcoholic presence. White pepper and ripe dark blue fruit start to emerge on the nose. The palate is a very different wine, it still has the vintage profile (shows that over ripe brown sugar edge) but it’s no longer clunker and awkward. Minerality is starting to emerge and the fruit is starting to soften. I put the glass in front of a couple guys and ask them to taste it without telling them what I poured. They all asked what wine this was and I told them it was the Benetiere. Everyone was surprised based on how poorly it showed on the pop and pour. Since I had to leave I poured it all back into the bottle to try later in the night.

Popped it again - half bottle left around 9pm PST

Some va on the nose (as noted by John Livingston when he tasted the bottle back in October) But lots of pretty lilac and purple fruit also. The nose is quite enjoyable now. Palate is way cleaner now. Turned more into that bright blue fruit and a bit of chewy meatiness. Light tannin. Great supple acidity that’s keeps the wine really lively. Some alcohol on the back end. Very 2015, the vintage shows much more than the producer but the wine shows far more as Benetiere on the palate than ever before.



About 7 hours in starts to shut down a bit. It shows some roasted meat and the fruit is still there but the acidity has receded and the alcohol becomes more prominent.

Seems so typical of the 2015 n rhones. They need 8+ hours of air right now to shrug their shoulders of the weight of the vintage

The wine actually reminds me a lot of the 2015 chave Hermitage I opened two months ago. It screams 2015 and the producer signature gets lost in the vintage in its youth. The chave showed alcohol and ripeness after 8 hours of air but good weight and acid.

Have a quarter of the bottle left and will update in a bit.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#131 Post by c fu » August 31st, 2019, 10:07 am

Update. 9:30am. Pulled the bottle from the fridge and met up with a friend at my wine storage facility to exchange some wine.

Poured him a glass (still a rich purple hue) without telling him what it was. Sniffed it. Soaring deep dark blue/black fruit, white flowers and pepper. Just kept sniffing. Then my friend asks me if I ever got the 15 Benetiere overnighted to me. I pull the bottle out of the bag and show it to him. The palate is still a bit cold but lots of clean fruit and elegance. Getting more and more of the producer signature now after 16 odd hours of air.

We gulped down the quarter bottle real quick, ate some Taiwanese breakfast on the hood of my car and went on our merry way.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#132 Post by Robert M yers » August 31st, 2019, 11:14 am

Oh boy this is going to be a “fun” one to follow over the years. Thanks for taking the initiative to get one into your hands. I wonder what Polaner’s reason for recall is going to be, Producer issue or something else?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#133 Post by scott c » August 31st, 2019, 3:54 pm

David_K wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 8:12 am
God if Polaner's lot is bad and Panzer's sound we'll never hear the end of it. Please let it not be true
WTT: my Polaner bottles for Panzer bottles
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#134 Post by Robert M yers » August 31st, 2019, 4:25 pm

Robert,

Are there two (or more) different bottling times/lots? I know you said your shipping storage is impeccable but I’d think Polaner takes that seriously as well.

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#135 Post by Robert M yers » August 31st, 2019, 4:27 pm

scott c wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 3:54 pm
David_K wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 8:12 am
God if Polaner's lot is bad and Panzer's sound we'll never hear the end of it. Please let it not be true
WTT: my Polaner bottles for Panzer bottles
Sounds like you can get a refund and probably buy from Panzer when he offers 16?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#136 Post by ybarselah » September 1st, 2019, 8:35 am

good updates. few thoughts:

1. fu's note(s) don't sound super promising, not great, not bad, perhaps not inherently flawed...just ... what? though overnighting a wine that's meant to be enjoyed over multiple days may be less than ideal to make a final determination. i wasn't aware that the other wines are vdf as well.

2. if (huge if) the polaner bottles are affected uniquely AND panzer's weren't, that should/could come out and absolutely needs some explanation. we don't have any evidence yet that this may be the case, but it could explain the potentially divergent experiences. panzer mentioned a LOT1 on his bottles and my two bottles had that as well. not sure if fu's bottle had that?

3. the delays, labeling/VDF, and potential storage issues are still not explained by the previous paperwork story. i've verified from a few sources that the INAO/AOC approval process is separate from Douane/paperwork/taxes issues, but given that we don't yet have a clear understanding of what actually happened (i.e., there are significant discrepancies between panzer's explanations here and what i've heard from those at polaner - and others), this picture is still incomplete to come to useful conclusion. as just one example, we don't know whether the bottles were submitted for tasting or not and whether they were approved or not.

edit: i've reached out to the local office in Valance, but I doubt that will be fruitful. If someone in France reading this has a good in there, that may clear up some of these questions.

to be continued...
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#137 Post by Ramon C » September 1st, 2019, 10:42 am

A lot of fuzz here.

Cool way to settle this is a Polaner vs Panzer taste-off. [popcorn.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#138 Post by Yao C » September 1st, 2019, 10:46 am

FWIW I spoke with one of the folks that tasted with Charlie; he liked it enough to recommend I buy some (I've got a couple coming from Panzer)
ybarselah wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 8:35 am
there are significant discrepancies between panzer's explanations here and what i've heard from those at polaner - and others
Could you describe the discrepancies please?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#139 Post by John Morris » September 1st, 2019, 10:48 am

I'm unclear -- is this being sold at Cote Rotie prices but with the VdF label? I would guess that if Polaner catalogued this as CR and it arrives labeled as VdF, there could be some squawking from retailers.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#140 Post by Robert M yers » September 1st, 2019, 11:00 am

John Morris wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 10:48 am
I'm unclear -- is this being sold at Cote Rotie prices but with the VdF label? I would guess that if Polaner catalogued this as CR and it arrives labeled as VdF, there could be some squawking from retailers.
Good point, it’s going to be a tough sale and explanation over and over again by retailers if it’s on the shelf somewhere. Casual buyers aren’t going to bite, while those that know probably don’t care. What is the price if one finds it from Polaner distribution? Seems like it’s a bit more?

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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#141 Post by Nathan V. » September 1st, 2019, 11:01 am

Ramon C wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 10:42 am
A lot of fuzz here.

Cool way to settle this is a Polaner vs Panzer taste-off. [popcorn.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#142 Post by Robert Panzer » September 1st, 2019, 12:42 pm

Yaacov,
After clarifying exactly what the douane/AOC protocol is with Marie, here it is, once again, for you to continue to discredit and disbelieve.
After harvest, sometime before the new year, one declares one's harvest totals with the douane, and pays tax.
After they have received that paperwork and payment, you then file your douane declared totals and proof of payment to the AOC, "revendiquer" is the french word, meaning "to claim". Once they have received and processed that, boom, green light, your wine is approved for AOC status.
If you don't file the douane paperwork, you can't file with the AOC. Order of operations.
Prior to '14, one would send samples in for analysis as part of the declaration. That changed (along with a few other new requirement wrinkles, which is part of what exacerbated Pierre's falling behind with paperwork) starting with the 2014 harvest. Samples are no longer required, but a particular wine can be "audited" at any time, randomly.
After the '14 harvest, Pierre didn't file any paperwork.
Then things snowballed, with no paperwork filed whatsoever until Marie dug them out in the late winter/early spring of '19!
As it had been such a long delay, the AOC was uncomfortable setting a precedent of retro-approving (after the fact) such a long delay.
There was a precedent for two years, but never further.
Thus, the AOC said ok to '17 and '18 being included, but didn't want to include '14-16.
There has never been any governmental question/issue about proper winemaking, vineyard management, or wine in the bottle at the estate.
Pierre never lost his "status" as a Condrieu/Côte Rôtie grower; that was my error in presenting it that way earlier.
The lack of AOC status only applies to the '14-16 harvests that the AOC declined to grant AOC status to due to the lengthy delay in properly filing their declarations and paying tax.

Next, Fu's bottles are the same as mine. He got them from me. All of my Cordeloux bottles say "lot 1", but I have the feeling that every single bottle will say that (not sure about that one though, have to ask Pierre).

Next, i've already been in touch with Polaner's handler of Benetiere, and plan on bringing what I have up to their place to open bottles, and compare/taste for ourselves. She returns from travels Sept 6th. She gave me props and told me that she avoids forums like this like the plague, I imagine for exactly the kind of reasons that your attitude brings to table.

Next, broadly speaking, your attitude about this all has pretty much sucked. I feel like i'm dealing with a petulant sibling more than an adult, as you have continually just tossed shade, selectively responded to communications, as well as ignored clarifications that i've already made. I'm all for transparent communication and getting to the heart of things, but I think your style of attempting to do so, or at least feigning to do so, stinks.

Again, may gritty haunt your dreams. (being both playful and serious here).
Last edited by Robert Panzer on September 1st, 2019, 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#143 Post by Greg K » September 1st, 2019, 3:33 pm

Ramon C wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 10:42 am
A lot of fuzz here.

Cool way to settle this is a Polaner vs Panzer taste-off. [popcorn.gif]
I have a Polaner bottle or 3 - who’s around the week of the 9th? [stirthepothal.gif]
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#144 Post by ybarselah » September 2nd, 2019, 7:53 am

a few more thoughts:

1. this thread is periodically archived at archive.org, including any deletions, edits, etc.

2. you've now personally attacked me several times. i'm not sure why, but it's in clear violation of the terms of the site.

3. i want to put a pin in this one as it has come up several times in various and somewhat shifting terms, and the implication is significant:

The lack of AOC status only applies to the '14-16 harvests that the AOC declined to grant AOC status to due to the lengthy delay in properly filing their declarations and paying tax.

You are stating that Benetiere failed to file and pay taxes for a "lengthy" time. It seems from your several posts that this "lengthy time" was up to several years (your post #142 seems to indicate 4-5 years depending on how you calculate the time referenced). The implication here is that, in spite of not filing and paying taxes for several years, they were able to stay open and continue making and selling wine. Do I have that correct?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#145 Post by Ramon C » September 2nd, 2019, 7:58 am

Greg K wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 3:33 pm
Ramon C wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 10:42 am
A lot of fuzz here.

Cool way to settle this is a Polaner vs Panzer taste-off. [popcorn.gif]
I have a Polaner bottle or 3 - who’s around the week of the 9th? [stirthepothal.gif]
I have a Panzer - 2011. At least I think that's where Faryan got the bottles that he shared.

Edited: Can't do week of the 9th.
Last edited by Ramon C on September 2nd, 2019, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#146 Post by Robert Panzer » September 2nd, 2019, 8:25 am

They were able to grow and vinify wine all of that time.
They were able to sell wine when in good standing with their tax liabilities.
When not in good standing, they could not sell a single bottle, that is to say have a single bottle leave the estate. (as best I understand). I am not sure how much leeway one is given by the douane in terms of what kind of delay is allowed before being in lockdown mode.
Hence the delay in shipping the bottled '15 Cordeloux/'13 Dolium.
Once back in good standing with the douane for their declarations (late winter/early spring '19), they could have shipped/sold everything under Vin de France. They waited whilst the retroactive appeal for AOC validation was being considered, which took a long time. Once the AOC decision was made, they had my order/Polaner's order depart, in mid June '19.
As to me personally attacking you, I think that your definition of an "attack" is different than mine.
I also think that you play far too innocent, which is in line with the sense of selective acknowledgement you have exhibited.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#147 Post by ybarselah » September 2nd, 2019, 8:58 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 8:25 am

When not in good standing, they could not sell a single bottle, that is to say have a single bottle leave the estate. (as best I understand). I am not sure how much leeway one is given by the douane in terms of what kind of delay is allowed before being in lockdown mode.
and this:
After the '14 harvest, Pierre didn't file any paperwork.
this is very interesting thanks for this additional info. given the fact they sold off 2014 in bulk (sometime in 2015?), are you saying that this period of "not good standing" allows wine to be sold, but just not under the label of the domaine. this seems like a massive loophole that would allow growers to sell wine without paying taxes...?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#148 Post by jleedionne » September 2nd, 2019, 9:04 am

NoahR wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 5:22 am
Robert Panzer wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 8:25 am
They were able to grow and vinify wine all of that time.
They were able to sell wine when in good standing with their tax liabilities.
When not in good standing, they could not sell a single bottle, that is to say have a single bottle leave the estate. (as best I understand). I am not sure how much leeway one is given by the douane in terms of what kind of delay is allowed before being in lockdown mode.
Hence the delay in shipping the bottled '15 Cordeloux/'13 Dolium.
Once back in good standing with the douane for their declarations (late winter/early spring '19), they could have shipped/sold everything under Vin de France. They waited whilst the retroactive appeal for AOC validation was being considered, which took a long time. Once the AOC decision was made, they had my order/Polaner's order depart, in mid June '19.
As to me personally attacking you, I think that your definition of an "attack" is different than mine.
I also think that you play far too innocent, which is in line with the sense of selective acknowledgement you have exhibited.
Any reason to believe the wine will suffer either the same fate as 2014 or excesses of 2015 heat?
So you offered the wines in January 2018, but they legally could not sell them to you?
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#149 Post by Robert Panzer » September 2nd, 2019, 9:25 am

Wine can be allocated and sold any time, but the wines cannot leave the estate whilst in tax arrears.
When you sell off in bulk to the distillery or sell in bulk to other growers, it is a different consideration than selling estate produced/bottled wine. The idea of a tax loophole is not appropriate here, as it is apples and oranges, a bit.
This is to the best of my knowledge (and I'm pretty darn sure I am correct).
One of the things that bugs me is a seeming one way expectation that I answer questions, which I have done without exception, yet no such responsibility in return.
This is why I refer to a selective acknowledgement/communication, which everyone in this public forum cannot see how many private email exchanges you have selectively ignored, Mr Yaacov, in addition to the unanswered questions in this public thread.
It is not a question of what one wishes to discuss, but how. This is why I think your attitude stinks. It is a flaunting of the golden rule, which makes the Philly raised common decency in me get indignant.
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Re: Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

#150 Post by DanielP » September 2nd, 2019, 9:31 am

Yaacov just doesn't want to drink the water you've led him to, nor will he elaborate why. Though he's happy to point out that the site is on archive.org and whine about personal "attacks" from the guy who he's peppering with questions.

Thank you Robert for taking the time to post in depth about the situation.
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