Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Brian Thorne
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 160
Joined: May 28th, 2009, 9:37 pm
Location: Delaware Valley

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#51 Post by Brian Thorne » May 13th, 2019, 8:09 am

For my tastes, I've always enjoyed the 1988 vintage; the '88 Pichon Lalande was a wine I purchased at auction whenever I could find it. I love the '86, '96 and '98 vintages too, but those have always been very highly regarded vintages, at least for particular appellations. I don't think anyone would argue that '96 wasn't legendary for much of the northern medoc, or '98 for the right bank and graves...

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5618
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#52 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 13th, 2019, 8:31 am

Brian Thorne wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 8:09 am
For my tastes, I've always enjoyed the 1988 vintage; the '88 Pichon Lalande was a wine I purchased at auction whenever I could find it. I love the '86, '96 and '98 vintages too, but those have always been very highly regarded vintages, at least for particular appellations. I don't think anyone would argue that '96 wasn't legendary for much of the northern medoc, or '98 for the right bank and graves...
The wines of Pessac in 1998 are superb, but the wines of Leognan are good but not outstanding.
ITB

User avatar
David Glasser
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5903
Joined: August 16th, 2009, 6:03 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#53 Post by David Glasser » May 13th, 2019, 9:54 am

This century: 2014. Runner-up: 2008.

Last century: 1988. Runners-up: 1983, 1986. Not enough experience with pre-1980s to list any.

User avatar
Anton D
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 27295
Joined: October 17th, 2013, 11:25 am
Location: Chico, CA

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#54 Post by Anton D » May 13th, 2019, 9:57 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 6:48 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 6:41 pm
Anton D wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm
In my 6/10ths of a century...

1959

1970

1975

1983
I would call 1959 clearly a VOTC. Try the Latour - one of the greatest Bordeauxs I have ever had.
Yes. I would call the conventional 20th Century “VOTCs” starting in the 20s: 1928-29, 1934, 1945, 1947, maybe 1949 and 1953 and 55 (or they could go in the excellent NVOTC tier per this thread), 59, 61, 82, 90, 00.
I never realized 1959 was so well regarded. [cheers.gif]

I saw someone mention 1988, I agree with that, as well.
Anton Dotson

Odd Rydland
Posts: 491
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 12:46 pm
Location: Bergen, Norway

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#55 Post by Odd Rydland » May 13th, 2019, 10:23 am

I certainly have had a very fine Beychevelle 1934 some 15 years ago. The 88s have always pleased me, Cantemerle, Leoville-Barton etc, certainly exceeding the vintages initial reputation as I read it at the time. I've tasted reasonably broadly in 2014 (as in 15 wines) and liked many wines quite a lot. The Merlot dominated wines (eg Conseillante) were pure hedonism, I can live with that. And I guess they will drink well within the coming decade, an important consideration at my age.

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13444
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#56 Post by Jay Miller » May 13th, 2019, 11:53 am

All you people saying 1970 are dead wrong. It was a vintage of the century.

I'll pick one per decade
1979
1986
1995 (1996 is a VOTC on the LB as is 1998 in RB and Graves)
2001
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#57 Post by Howard Cooper » May 14th, 2019, 5:20 am

Jay Miller wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 11:53 am
All you people saying 1970 are dead wrong. It was a vintage of the century.

I'll pick one per decade
1979
1986
1995 (1996 is a VOTC on the LB as is 1998 in RB and Graves)
2001
Jay, you are starting to become a real Bordeaux guy. Everything is a vintage of the century.

I would limit my vintages of the century to 1959 (have not had earlier wines), 1961, 1982, 2005 and maybe 2016. I may be wrong leaving out 1989, not sure.

And, I love wines from 1970.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13444
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#58 Post by Jay Miller » May 14th, 2019, 6:11 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:20 am
Jay Miller wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 11:53 am
All you people saying 1970 are dead wrong. It was a vintage of the century.

I'll pick one per decade
1979
1986
1995 (1996 is a VOTC on the LB as is 1998 in RB and Graves)
2001
Jay, you are starting to become a real Bordeaux guy. Everything is a vintage of the century.

I would limit my vintages of the century to 1959 (have not had earlier wines), 1961, 1982, 2005 and maybe 2016. I may be wrong leaving out 1989, not sure.

And, I love wines from 1970.
Everyone knows you have at least one vintage of the century every decade. Isn't that the definition of the term? newhere
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#59 Post by Howard Cooper » May 14th, 2019, 6:14 am

Jay Miller wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 6:11 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:20 am
Jay Miller wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 11:53 am
All you people saying 1970 are dead wrong. It was a vintage of the century.

I'll pick one per decade
1979
1986
1995 (1996 is a VOTC on the LB as is 1998 in RB and Graves)
2001
Jay, you are starting to become a real Bordeaux guy. Everything is a vintage of the century.

I would limit my vintages of the century to 1959 (have not had earlier wines), 1961, 1982, 2005 and maybe 2016. I may be wrong leaving out 1989, not sure.

And, I love wines from 1970.
Everyone knows you have at least one vintage of the century every decade. Isn't that the definition of the term? newhere
One?????? Aren’t we now up to three or four per decade?
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5618
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#60 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 14th, 2019, 8:22 am

Going back in the last century to 1970.

1975 Right Bank: absolutely killer vintage.
1978 a few goodies, but needed a pretty cool cellar
1979 poster child for underrated esp. Pomerol and Margaux but just beginning to fade
1981 Graves seems pretty good, and L’Evangile is outstanding. Otherwise nothing rocked my boat.
1983 plenty of good wines, and seriously good in Margaux
1988 a lot of people like it, I find the wines gray and dusty, with almost no fruit.
1993 some surprisingly good wines, but never great.
1994 ok, after a run of some pretty dire vintages
1999 again Margaux seemed to thrive in an off vintage.
ITB

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 538
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#61 Post by Greg K » May 14th, 2019, 8:26 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:20 am
Jay Miller wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 11:53 am
All you people saying 1970 are dead wrong. It was a vintage of the century.

I'll pick one per decade
1979
1986
1995 (1996 is a VOTC on the LB as is 1998 in RB and Graves)
2001
Jay, you are starting to become a real Bordeaux guy. Everything is a vintage of the century.

I would limit my vintages of the century to 1959 (have not had earlier wines), 1961, 1982, 2005 and maybe 2016. I may be wrong leaving out 1989, not sure.

And, I love wines from 1970.
I would have thought either of 2009 or 2010, if not both, would be listed in the VOTC category given the hype both vintages got.
Greg Kahn

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#62 Post by Howard Cooper » May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm

I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 538
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#63 Post by Greg K » May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
Greg Kahn

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#64 Post by Howard Cooper » May 14th, 2019, 6:04 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
I don't understand your references to critical consensus, whatever that means - e.g., ask John Gilman what he thinks. I pretty specifically called the vintages "my vintages of the century" - MY vintages, not that of one or one thousand critics. Why would MY vintages of the century have anything to do with critical consensus. We can all look up what critics say. Isn't the point of this board to provide personal views - not mimic critics.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

Karl K
Posts: 1068
Joined: October 29th, 2016, 10:01 pm

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#65 Post by Karl K » May 14th, 2019, 6:38 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
I don't understand your references to critical consensus, whatever that means - e.g., ask John Gilman what he thinks. I pretty specifically called th4e vintages "my vintages of the century" - MY vintages, not that of one or one thousand critics. Why would MY vintages of the century have anything to do with critical consensus. We can all look up what critics say. Isn't the point of this board to provide personal views - not mimic critics.
I agree with what Howard said.
K a z a k s

User avatar
Craig G
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13808
Joined: March 6th, 2011, 10:57 am
Location: Town of Cats

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#66 Post by Craig G » May 14th, 2019, 8:49 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
Were you drinking 2009s on release or more recently? In my experience, around 5-10 years from the vintage is about the most difficult time to drink Bordeaux from strong vintages. I didn’t taste a lot of them but the 2009s I had on release were quite good.
“You need to look down to the bottom shelf where they keep the Fighting Cock” — Corey N.

C. Gle@son

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 538
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#67 Post by Greg K » May 14th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
I don't understand your references to critical consensus, whatever that means - e.g., ask John Gilman what he thinks. I pretty specifically called the vintages "my vintages of the century" - MY vintages, not that of one or one thousand critics. Why would MY vintages of the century have anything to do with critical consensus. We can all look up what critics say. Isn't the point of this board to provide personal views - not mimic critics.
I’m not suggesting you’re not allowed to offer your personal views, and I’m quite confused by implication that I am. To me, “vintage of the century” means a hyped vintage that’s highly rated by critics and which is also typically reflected in the pricing. Otherwise, if one likes a vintage, ant vintage is a vintage of the century, making that descriptor utterly meaningless. And yes, I fully realize that the term has a pejorative connotation in this context as well. And in the context of this thread, which reflects favorite non vintages of the century, I take that to mean of the less critically lauded years. Otherwise it makes even less sense - if I think 04 is a personal vintage of the century, I wouldn’t list it here. Or if I thought 82 was ok but not great, I would. Which would be quite odd!

Of course, as always on the internet, ymmv.
Greg Kahn

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 538
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#68 Post by Greg K » May 14th, 2019, 10:37 pm

Craig G wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 8:49 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
I'm not arguing as to what your palate is, but what's critical consensus. I've had very few 09s/10s, but what I've had from the 09s has been generally disappointing. Other people's mileage may vary. I remember the 09s/10s being hyped a great deal (and prices rising commensurately).
Were you drinking 2009s on release or more recently? In my experience, around 5-10 years from the vintage is about the most difficult time to drink Bordeaux from strong vintages. I didn’t taste a lot of them but the 2009s I had on release were quite good.
More recently. They may evolve beautifully, but while I’ve like some of the 10s, I haven’t the 09s.
Greg Kahn

User avatar
Marc Frontario
Posts: 2377
Joined: May 6th, 2010, 4:00 am

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#69 Post by Marc Frontario » May 15th, 2019, 9:33 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:38 pm
I have found very few 2009s that I like and the 2010s I have had just don’t measure up to 1982s and 2005s I have had or frankly even 1996s. Big fruit isn’t everything. The best Bordeauxs combine richness with freshness and elegance.
What impressed me most about the 2010's was the structure...the top growths feel like 50 plus yr. wines.
Find something you love....and let it kill u

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2471
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm

Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#70 Post by Pat Martin » May 16th, 2019, 11:33 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 8:22 am
1983 plenty of good wines, and seriously good in Margaux
1988 a lot of people like it, I find the wines gray and dusty, with almost no fruit.
There are some very fine 1988s, but overall 1983 mops the floor with 1988. Chateau that were making good wines in both vintages (so this would exclude Pichon Baron, Lagrange, and some others) mostly made better wines in 83: Pichon Lalande (better in 83), Lynch Bages (tied), all of the 1st Growths (tied or better in 83), Gruaud and Talbot (much better in 83), Beychevelle (better in 83), Leoville Las Cases and Leoville Poyferre (better in 83), Cantemerle and Lagune (better in 83), etc.

And course the Right Bank was much stronger in 83 and the Margaux appellation had one of its finest vintages ever in 83. Sauternes was great in both 83 and 88, I think I prefer 83 stickies but most probably give the edge to 88

I am hard pressed to think of any 88 that I prefer to the 83. Lynch might be the only one, maybe Cos?
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”