Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

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Mark Golodetz
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Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 11th, 2019, 6:31 am

I like 2008 and 2014, but also have enjoyed Right Bank 2001 and a 2004 and 2006.

Have not had enough post 2010s to comment, but the 2012s I have had, have been decent if lacking intensity.
Thoughts?
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#2 Post by Marc Frontario » May 11th, 2019, 7:39 am

Found lots of love with '01 and '04 vintages...still out on '06 but its def. growing on me...not sold on '08 yet

'07 la lagune popped last week was flirtysmile
pure classic goodness....top 5 bordeaux for me this yr.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#3 Post by NoahR » May 11th, 2019, 7:42 am

I think history will continue to be kind to 2014.

And 1986 has surpassed expectations I think, sandwiched between VOTC 82, 89 and 90. Hard to find bad wines from that whole decade outside of 84 and 87
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#4 Post by BobH » May 11th, 2019, 7:43 am

I think that 2010 was considered by most to be a great vintage- and with good reasons such as Pape Clement- so you might want to take it off your list.
But I bought more 2001 and 2014 than most vintages. 2014 reminds me of a modern 1985 and I am in love with it
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#5 Post by Craig G » May 11th, 2019, 7:56 am

1979, 1981 and 1988 are candidates for me. More recently, 2001. I haven’t had that many 2014s but it seems like a good candidate too. I’m quite intrigued by 2017 as well but it needs more time to make prices look attractive. If I pick just one, 1988.

I’m disqualifying 1985 as there was enough hype about it to include it in “many VOTC” conversations.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#6 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 11th, 2019, 7:58 am

Of vintages I purchased on release, 2001 is my favorite. There lots to love from both sides of the river.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#7 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 11th, 2019, 7:59 am

2001, 2004, 2008. Still reserving judgment on 2006 and 2014.

I have to say that the bottle of 2011 Magdelaine we had last week was delicious. It’s a single data point but I suspect there are many good wines from this completely overlooked vintage that are entirely under the radar.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#8 Post by Kris Patten » May 11th, 2019, 8:02 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 6:31 am
I like 2008 and 2014, but also have enjoyed Right Bank 2001 and a 2004 and 2006.

Have not had enough post 2010s to comment, but the 2012s I have had, have been decent if lacking intensity.
Thoughts?
1988 and 2008.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#9 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 11th, 2019, 8:13 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 7:59 am
2001, 2004, 2008. Still reserving judgment on 2006 and 2014.

I have to say that the bottle of 2011 Magdelaine we had last week was delicious. It’s a single data point but I suspect there are many good wines from this completely overlooked vintage that are entirely under the radar.
There are some killer 2011s, including Magdelaine.

What’s your reservation on 2014? I am more enamored with this young vintage than any young vintage that I recall. I bought deeply, going 3x on some wines. I’d put 2004 and 2001 as my follow-ups in this category, post-2000. Before that, I agree with Craig, 1988 has evolved in a very lovely way.

I need to take a re-look at 2008, given all the recent coments from Gillman, Golodetz, you, et al.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#10 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 11th, 2019, 8:24 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 8:13 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 7:59 am
2001, 2004, 2008. Still reserving judgment on 2006 and 2014.

I have to say that the bottle of 2011 Magdelaine we had last week was delicious. It’s a single data point but I suspect there are many good wines from this completely overlooked vintage that are entirely under the radar.
There are some killer 2011s, including Magdelaine.

What’s your reservation on 2014? I am more enamored with this young vintage than any young vintage that I recall. I bought deeply, going 3x on some wines. I’d put 2004 and 2001 as my follow-ups in this category, post-2000. Before that, I agree with Craig, 1988 has evolved in a very lovely way.

I need to take a re-look at 2008, given all the recent coments from Gillman, Golodetz, you, et al.
On 2014 I want to see how the alcohol integrates and taste more widely. I don’t tend to like young Bordeaux and consider 2014s still very young. Also alcohol is modest for this century, but there are 14+% wines in 2014 and I start to notice it poking out around that level. We will see.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#11 Post by Greg K » May 11th, 2019, 8:30 am

1986 and 2004, with the caveat that I primarily drink left bank wines.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#12 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » May 11th, 2019, 8:32 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 6:31 am
I like 2008 and 2014, but also have enjoyed Right Bank 2001 and a 2004 and 2006.

Have not had enough post 2010s to comment, but the 2012s I have had, have been decent if lacking intensity.
Thoughts?
Agree with all of the above and currently favoring 2001 on both sides of the Gironde.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#13 Post by Jay Miller » May 11th, 2019, 9:14 am

Craig G wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 7:56 am
1979, 1981 and 1988 are candidates for me. More recently, 2001. I haven’t had that many 2014s but it seems like a good candidate too. I’m quite intrigued by 2017 as well but it needs more time to make prices look attractive. If I pick just one, 1988.

I’m disqualifying 1985 as there was enough hype about it to include it in “many VOTC” conversations.
I think he's talking about this century.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#14 Post by Craig G » May 11th, 2019, 9:24 am

There are so many centuries, I get them mixed up.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#15 Post by Neal.Mollen » May 11th, 2019, 9:26 am

NoahR wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 7:42 am
I think history will continue to be kind to 2014.

And 1986 has surpassed expectations I think, sandwiched between VOTC 82, 89 and 90. Hard to find bad wines from that whole decade outside of 84 and 87
Yeah, and a couple of bottles of 87 Gruaud have been lovely recently
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#16 Post by PCLIN » May 11th, 2019, 9:33 am

2008
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#17 Post by Dave Appel » May 11th, 2019, 9:44 am

It may not be my absolute favorite (and apologies to the extent this posting drifts from the subject line), but I continue to find that the 2002s I have tried consistently outperform at least the more pessimistic views of the vintage. I have had both an 02 Leoville Barton and Talbot recently, and each was excellent (though the LB to my taste had the better showing). In the interests of full disclosure, my preferences regarding Bordeaux trend toward what I understand to be Alfert's, Mollen's and other traditionalists here (I don't post often, but I lurk prolifically), and my views are qualified accordingly.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#18 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 11th, 2019, 10:01 am

I was thinking this century, but there are plenty of really good wines from underrated vintages in the last one available, so let’s include them too.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#19 Post by Yao C » May 11th, 2019, 10:08 am

1983 and 1986 have been great for me. I have fond memories of a bottle of 1983 Mouton from last year. This century I like 2008
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#20 Post by brodie thomson » May 11th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Marc Frontario wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 7:39 am
Found lots of love with '01 and '04 vintages
Another vote for 01 and 04

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#21 Post by Eric Egan » May 11th, 2019, 12:50 pm

2004 from this millennium.

From the past I favour 1994, 1983, 1971, and 1962. Of the outliers I have had great experiences with 1973 (with surprisingly few bad bottles). I guess you could also add 1952, 1948, 1933, and 1923 to that list. Not to forget the lovely 1842s - now all but forgotten!
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#22 Post by Ian A » May 11th, 2019, 1:13 pm

A vote for 2012 because it reminds me so much of the 1985s at a similar age; both vintages have been accessible at a very early age. Prices are reasonable for the 2012s which makes it a very useful vintage.

I accept that 2014 may turn out to be the superior vintage in the fullness of time given the Indian summer in that year but you really can’t go wrong with 2012. I have a great fondness for 2008, based on the limited number of wines I have tried, which I rate above 2001.

In the so-called non-trophy vintages in the noughties my pecking order would be 2008, 2004, 2001, 2006, 2002, 2007, 2003..
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#23 Post by Craig G » May 11th, 2019, 1:13 pm

I had indeed forgotten the 1842s.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#24 Post by Victor Hong » May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm

Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#25 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 11th, 2019, 1:28 pm

Ian A wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:13 pm
A vote for 2012 because it reminds me so much of the 1985s at a similar age; both vintages have been accessible at a very early age. Prices are reasonable for the 2012s which makes it a very useful vintage.

I accept that 2014 may turn out to be the superior vintage in the fullness of time given the Indian summer in that year but you really can’t go wrong with 2012. I have a great fondness for 2008, based on the limited number of wines I have tried, which I rate above 2001.

In the so-called non-trophy vintages in the noughties my pecking order would be 2008, 2004, 2001, 2006, 2002, 2007, 2003..
The 2012s have not really moved me, but I’ve only popped some Crus and lower-tier GCs. I have some Trotanoy, Haut Bailly, Branaire, etc., but have not popped them. What stands out to you? Like 2008, I’m always open to revisit.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#26 Post by Howard Cooper » May 11th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Last century - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1986, 1996

This century - 2001, 2014
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#27 Post by Yao C » May 11th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm
Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
Cheaper and in some cases actually better? Cf 2005, which tastes oddly samey to me, apart from being ridiculously priced
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#28 Post by Lee Barnard » May 11th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Yao C wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 3:41 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm
Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
Cheaper and in some cases actually better? Cf 2005, which tastes oddly samey to me, apart from being ridiculously priced
Agree. Based on this and a few earlier posts, going to put together a 2008 mix case to get a read. I keep picking up more and more 2014. Great value.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#29 Post by brodie thomson » May 11th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm
Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
pick your answer preference!

Answer 1: cos we are AFWE and we prefer the lighter less ripe flavours in the NVOTC wines
Answer 2: cos the VOTC wines take forever to come around and the NVOTC wines are ready earlier
Answer 3: NVOTC are not harder to find - question is based on a false premise
Answer 4: they are cheaper
Answer 5: VOTC and NVOTC are bullshit labels that mean nothing

Hah!

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#30 Post by Arv R » May 11th, 2019, 5:00 pm

I'm sure an outlier on this, but I really liked the 1999's. The dollar was strong and the Bordelais were weak, so I ended up with lots of wines purchased indent, for cheap. They were quaffed with little concern (or even understanding) that I would chuckle at now. There was an easy drinking, early generosity to the 1999s.

I might have less than 3 btls of the 10+ cases purcased EP left at this point, and at age 20, they will make their appointment in corkscrew Samarra this year.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#31 Post by Mark Thompson » May 11th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Arv R wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 5:00 pm
I'm sure an outlier on this, but I really liked the 1999's. The dollar was strong and the Bordelais were weak, so I ended up with lots of wines purchased indent, for cheap. They were quaffed with little concern (or even understanding) that I would chuckle at now. There was an easy drinking, early generosity to the 1999s.

I might have less than 3 btls of the 10+ cases purcased EP left at this point, and at age 20, they will make their appointment in corkscrew Samarra this year.
I’ve had some awesome (mostly Right Bank) 99’s. VCC and Canon la Gaffeliere are a couple examples.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#32 Post by Dan Kravitz » May 11th, 2019, 5:38 pm

Left Bank - '86
Right Bank - '01

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#33 Post by Victor Hong » May 11th, 2019, 8:01 pm

Sarcasm is typically obvious.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#34 Post by Greg K » May 11th, 2019, 8:16 pm

Yao C wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 3:41 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm
Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
Cheaper and in some cases actually better? Cf 2005, which tastes oddly samey to me, apart from being ridiculously priced
While acknowledging that Victor was being tongue in cheek, I have a good amount of faith in the 2005s coming good over the long term. But I have no plans to drink any of mine now.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#35 Post by Pat Martin » May 11th, 2019, 11:08 pm

If price is a factor, my two favorite under the radar vintages are 83 and 02. Both were/are so inexpensive for so long. I recall buying the 02 Pontet Canet off the shelf in shops for $22, the 02 Leoville Barton for $28, 02 Branaire Ducru for $18, etc.

83 is still my value proposition from the 80’s, just had an 83 Cantemerle tonight that was singing. Plus it was strong on both banks.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#36 Post by Tom Reddick » May 12th, 2019, 12:01 am

Kris Patten wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 8:02 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 6:31 am
I like 2008 and 2014, but also have enjoyed Right Bank 2001 and a 2004 and 2006.

Have not had enough post 2010s to comment, but the 2012s I have had, have been decent if lacking intensity.
Thoughts?
1988 and 2008.
Agreed- huge 88 and 08 fan here.

I am also keeping an eye on 2006 these days- Magdelaine in particular is putting on weight and looking far more serious than it did at release.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#37 Post by Eric Egan » May 12th, 2019, 1:19 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 2:06 pm
Last century - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1986, 1996
I agree - these are excellent vintages. Perhaps even vintages of the century;-)

I was going for less heralded vintages but you're right of course, I don't think any of these were touted as VOTC at the time. Though if any of these seasons had taken place since 2000 they would undoubtedly have been heralded as vintage of this century...
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#38 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » May 12th, 2019, 3:55 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 2:06 pm
Last century - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1986, 1996

This century - 2001, 2014
Good stuff Howard!
1996 may well be a good vintage of the century "imposter" [wow.gif] : love that vintage especially from many a Médoc estate.
Totally agree with 2001, across the region. Recently had a 2001 Rauzan-Ségla that was utterly gorgeous, proving the point that 2001 is not just about the Right Bank and Graves, even if those latter regions/appellations excelled more in 2001 on average. And let's not forget how fine the whites dry and sweet were in 2001. :-)
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#39 Post by Greg Mitrakas » May 12th, 2019, 5:23 am

Big fan of the 01's, both banks. Typically they have great balance and elegance. I prefer many 01's to their Vintage of the Century counterparts.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#40 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2019, 5:57 am

Victor Hong wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:14 pm
Why bother to drink non-vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux, when harder to find than vintage-of-the-century Bordeaux?
Of course, vintages of the century are much easier to find because there are so many more of them.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#41 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2019, 5:59 am

Panos Kakaviatos wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 3:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 2:06 pm
Last century - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1986, 1996

This century - 2001, 2014
Good stuff Howard!
1996 may well be a good vintage of the century "imposter" [wow.gif] : love that vintage especially from many a Médoc estate.
Totally agree with 2001, across the region. Recently had a 2001 Rauzan-Ségla that was utterly gorgeous, proving the point that 2001 is not just about the Right Bank and Graves, even if those latter regions/appellations excelled more in 2001 on average. And let's not forget how fine the whites dry and sweet were in 2001. :-)
Oh. Did d'Yquem and Climens make decent wine in 2001? [winner.gif]
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#42 Post by J Dove » May 12th, 2019, 7:31 am

Greg K wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 8:30 am
1986 and 2004, with the caveat that I primarily drink left bank wines.

1986, on the Left Bank, is a great vintage, IMO.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#43 Post by Ian A » May 12th, 2019, 1:16 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:28 pm
Ian A wrote:
May 11th, 2019, 1:13 pm
A vote for 2012 because it reminds me so much of the 1985s at a similar age; both vintages have been accessible at a very early age. Prices are reasonable for the 2012s which makes it a very useful vintage.

I accept that 2014 may turn out to be the superior vintage in the fullness of time given the Indian summer in that year but you really can’t go wrong with 2012. I have a great fondness for 2008, based on the limited number of wines I have tried, which I rate above 2001.

In the so-called non-trophy vintages in the noughties my pecking order would be 2008, 2004, 2001, 2006, 2002, 2007, 2003..
The 2012s have not really moved me, but I’ve only popped some Crus and lower-tier GCs. I have some Trotanoy, Haut Bailly, Branaire, etc., but have not popped them. What stands out to you? Like 2008, I’m always open to revisit.
Robert there are quite a few that have really impressed me by their quality and accessibility.

Outstanding wines would include

Pichon Baron
Leoville Lascases (BWE woty in 2015)
Rauzan Segla
D’Issan
Haut-Bailly (Graves/Pessac was strong generally in 2012)
Canon
La Conseillante (just outstanding)

The 2012 vintage is strong and consistent across the board for reds.

Quality-wise I would put it close to 2008, my favourite non-trophy vintage of the noughties.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#44 Post by Anton D » May 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm

In my 6/10ths of a century...

1959

1970

1975

1983
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#45 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 12th, 2019, 1:27 pm

20th Century, with caveat I don’t know ‘50s and earlier well enough to comment: 1970 and 1971. Then 1983 and 1985.

Others I love: 75, 79, 81, 86 (just now coming into its prime plateau expected to last decades).

For the future: 95 (to heck with the naysayers).

Absolute sleeper: 1978.

Edit: forgot 64 and 66. I find 64 underrated on the Left Bank.
Last edited by Jayson Cohen on May 12th, 2019, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Brian G r a f s t r o m
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#46 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 12th, 2019, 2:21 pm

I love 2014 ... moreso than some of the purported VsOTC.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#47 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 12th, 2019, 3:59 pm

it's early yet, but 2014 might end up being the non-VOTC VOTC at least for the 21st century. Per Cellartracker people are loving it out of bottle, plus it was a relative bargain if you bought in early.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#48 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2019, 6:41 pm

Anton D wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm
In my 6/10ths of a century...

1959

1970

1975

1983
I would call 1959 clearly a VOTC. Try the Latour - one of the greatest Bordeauxs I have ever had.
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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#49 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 12th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 6:41 pm
Anton D wrote:
May 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm
In my 6/10ths of a century...

1959

1970

1975

1983
I would call 1959 clearly a VOTC. Try the Latour - one of the greatest Bordeauxs I have ever had.
Yes. I would call the conventional 20th Century “VOTCs” starting in the 20s: 1928-29, 1934, 1945, 1947, maybe 1949 and 1953 and 55 (or they could go in the excellent NVOTC tier per this thread), 59, 61, 82, 90, 00.

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Re: Favorite Bordeaux non vintage of the century

#50 Post by Scott E. Wade » May 13th, 2019, 5:58 am

A very general gestalt of these vintages. I have always found the 2001s to be a bit angular and the other nit is a little too green.

The 2006s I've had have underwhelmed me. From 30,000 foot view, the CT scores for my wines are similar to the 2002s I bought.

The 2008s I've had are obviously young and I've only tried wines on the lower end.

The very easy answer for me is 2004. Just a bunch of pleasant surprises and every one has been good. Due to the pricing I was able to buy a lot of top labels and I suppose that helps. I bought a lot too as cellar defenders for my 2000s and and 2005s and so that is working out too.

My longer term great hope is the 2014s. I'll get to those in about 10 years. I remember when I didn't touch most of Bordeaux until 10 years and now it is more often I start at 15.

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