2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

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Rauno E (NZ)
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#201 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » June 13th, 2019, 10:22 pm

I've bought some Domaine De Chevalier (Rouge and Blanc) because I like them, PLL and Montrose. Decided I will pass on the bulk of offers - can't quite get enthusiastic about shelling out more $$$ for a vintage that I may like less than '14-'16s once I actually get to taste them. No FGs this time, and buying a lot less than I did in '14-'16. I acknowledge it's possible I will regret it, but that would probably be only once the wines are fully mature - and hey, what's a few more regrets when I'm in my late 80s :)!!
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#202 Post by Tom Reddick » June 14th, 2019, 12:42 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 11:07 pm
Tom, remember you can buy 35 cases of Kabi for that. :)
Ha! True that. Any Trier buzz yet? I will dive in again this year, but I am expecting prices will be up strongly again.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#203 Post by Tom Reddick » June 14th, 2019, 12:43 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 7:22 am
Tom Reddick wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:44 pm
Adam Levyn wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 11:14 am
How do folks feel about the pricing of Margaux / Mouton?
I think the pricing is reasonable- and actually a bit lower than what I was expecting given that some chateaux opted to take a strong price hike in 2018 after a few vintages where sales have been pretty solid compared to the late 00s/early10s era.

For my part, depending on how a tasting of 2015 Mouton goes in the next few weeks, I may be in for 2018 Mouton, but I am not going to go after Margaux. The 2012 in particular was disappointing in that what could have been a really classy mid-weight was, in my opinion, pushed too far in order to get a little extra body and weight.

Mouton is a personal favorite, but they also seem to experiment quite a bit more than the other firsts. Sometimes that is good, sometimes not, but right now they are on a real hot streak- and so that is the only 2018 first growth I would personally consider buying by the case, and may well be the only 2018 I purchase. I am a Lafite fan too, but that is not generally as good a choice (for my tastes) in vintages that test the extremes on warmth. I find I like it best in vintages like 1988 that are very classic in presentation.
Lafite has notably low alchol, 13.3%. Might be to your taste.
Thank you- good to know. I will wait and see where that one releases before I make any moves.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#204 Post by Adam Levyn » June 14th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Tom, did you bite on the Lafite?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#205 Post by Tom Reddick » June 14th, 2019, 9:19 pm

Adam Levyn wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 6:33 pm
Tom, did you bite on the Lafite?
Not yet. I am formally launching my new accessories venture to retailers in the next couple of weeks, and so it is a very bad time for me to be spending that kind of money on a couple of cases of wine (Lafite and Mouton.)

I am going to wait a few months before deciding, and hopefully have a chance to pull corks on 15 and 16 Mouton in the interim. The last few vintages, even with the reasonable pricing compared to 09-10 and the high scores, the firsts remained on Total Wine's future sales page right up until the next vintage replaced them, and I see no reason why 2018 would sell out at a faster rate. So I am going to wait after all.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#206 Post by Panos Kakaviatos » June 14th, 2019, 10:42 pm

Jim Hartten wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 1:18 pm
Adam, based on the experts, there are some great candidates to add from 2018 Bordeaux. Calon Segur 2018 is essentially first growth quality at about $109. Several tasting reports provided on the WB 2018 Bordeaux thread by Panos, Jeff Levy, and some Suckling scores posted as well. FarrVintners.com also has tasting notes for the wines they are buying and selling. [stirthepothal.gif]
I’m not quite as bullish on Calon, in 2018. Let’s see from bottle. The really high alcohol and high pH give me some pause. Go for Gruaud or Beychevelle instead, as price point similar or even more interesting.
I am mainly based in Europe, and thanks for reading wine-chronicles(.)com

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#207 Post by Adam Levyn » June 15th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Do 375ml bottles makes sense if you are buying wines like Lafite or is it better to buy in 750ml?

I like the concept of a 375ml in terms of a dinner for two buy if you are looking to age for a while 15+ years curious if the 750ml is the better way to go.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#208 Post by Tom Reddick » June 15th, 2019, 10:11 pm

Adam Levyn wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 9:02 pm
Do 375ml bottles makes sense if you are buying wines like Lafite or is it better to buy in 750ml?

I like the concept of a 375ml in terms of a dinner for two buy if you are looking to age for a while 15+ years curious if the 750ml is the better way to go.
It makes sense if you have a very specific desire to drink the wine from 375mls- otherwise I would not do it. You pay a small premium usually, and at a certain age even top vintages in half bottle trade at a discount in the secondary market due to a lack of demand. Granted we all buy wine intending to drink it (or most of us anyway), but with what wine is worth today I think it is sensible to always have in the back of your mind that it is a valuable asset you could sell in part should you ever need or want to do so- and make decisions like this one accordingly.

With all the options out there to preserve wine (or just the old fashioned topping off an empty half bottle with almost zero airspace and recorking it) and enjoy it over a couple of nights- I do not ever buy halves.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#209 Post by Dinesh Goyal » June 16th, 2019, 3:50 am

All, one question - so far in 2018 I have bought Calon Segur, Canon, Rauzan Segla, Pontet Canet & LLC.

Any suggestions between La Mission Haut Briton and L’Evangile?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#210 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 17th, 2019, 5:01 am

Yow! VCC at $320 a bottle.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#211 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 17th, 2019, 5:08 am

Tom Reddick wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 10:11 pm
at a certain age even top vintages in half bottle trade at a discount in the secondary market due to a lack of demand.
This has most definitely not been my experience (although I am not often buying the likes of Lafite). If you want to drink half bottles (and I do) buy them as futures. They are devilishly hard to find thereafter and (again in my experience) you pay a premium for them.

I suspect that for the prestige labels, I could see a diminished auction value for truly aged halves. There is no doubt less "prestige" to opening a half bottle. They are "cute" not "impressive." But if you are drinking alone or mid-week or at lunch and just want a glass or two, they are perfect. It also allows you to drink two (or more) different wines over the course of a meal. I love them. I wish very much I had purchased more wine in halves earlier in my obsession.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#212 Post by PCLIN » June 17th, 2019, 5:25 am

Agreed with Neal, I wish I had bought more wine in halves. Now 100% of my Bordeaux EP purchases are in halves. It’s even harder to find Burgundy in halves.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#213 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 17th, 2019, 5:28 am

PCLIN wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:25 am
Agreed with Neal, I wish I had bought more wine in halves. Now 100% of my Bordeaux EP purchases are in halves. It’s even harder to find Burgundy in halves.
Forgive the diversion: Domaine Pavelot offers its various Savigny-lès-Beaune wines in halves every year. Again, not "prestige" wines, but they are inexpensive and delicious. Absolutely fantastic with lunch. I have a lot of them.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#214 Post by Jason L Jones » June 17th, 2019, 7:59 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:01 am
Yow! VCC at $320 a bottle.
I was really hoping to see more restraint on this price, along with Figeac and La Conseillante.

Is a retailer going to put these on the shelf next to 05/09/10 selling for roughly the same price, or the 12/14 selling at ~50% under? It seems some of these 18s are destined to languish in the market.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#215 Post by Kris Patten » June 17th, 2019, 8:12 am

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 7:59 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:01 am
Yow! VCC at $320 a bottle.
I was really hoping to see more restraint on this price, along with Figeac and La Conseillante.

Is a retailer going to put these on the shelf next to 05/09/10 selling for roughly the same price, or the 12/14 selling at ~50% under? It seems some of these 18s are destined to languish in the market.
When it comes to BDX, your logical assertion loses steam, the Bordelais understand that a higher 18 price for the top wines will drive demand to backfill older vintages, of which 1000s of cases remain in warehouses, while driving their price higher due to increased demand.

It's a rather clever strategy that can only exist when you are making 5-25000 cases of a luxury good.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#216 Post by Jeff Leve » June 17th, 2019, 9:12 am

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 7:59 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:01 am
Yow! VCC at $320 a bottle.
I was really hoping to see more restraint on this price, along with Figeac and La Conseillante.

Is a retailer going to put these on the shelf next to 05/09/10 selling for roughly the same price, or the 12/14 selling at ~50% under? It seems some of these 18s are destined to languish in the market.
You cannot compare prices on 14 and 12 with 18. 18 is a much better wine. You can compare 18 with 15/16. VCC is a hot brand at the moment, perhaps the hottest wine in Pomerol today. As for quality, VCC is clearly in the top 5 in the appellation. All of that factors into setting a new rate for the wine.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#217 Post by crickey » June 17th, 2019, 9:45 am

The two offers of VCC I've seen today are both under $300, which is still expensive (and higher than the release of the 2016), but at least less than the current market prices for the 2009, 2010, 2015 and 2016. Not all of the recent offers can say the same thing.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#218 Post by Jeff Leve » June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am

Nobody should buy wine they consider overpriced, or too expensive for their ability to easily consume a bottle. But in glancing over numerous posts, the comments solely focused on price do not paint an accurate picture. Quality and style should be front and center as it relates to price.

For example, comparing 2018 to 2014 is silly, they have nothing in common. 2018 V. 2016/2015, while stylistically different, they are all quality vintages. Though there are better wines in 2018 than both previously mentioned vintages. IMO, 2018 is a better wine than previously offered vintages, I do not see the issue of a price hike. If a 2018 wine is less in quality, the price should also reflect that reality.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#219 Post by Jason L Jones » June 17th, 2019, 11:07 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am
Nobody should buy wine they consider overpriced, or too expensive for their ability to easily consume a bottle. But in glancing over numerous posts, the comments solely focused on price do not paint an accurate picture. Quality and style should be front and center as it relates to price.

For example, comparing 2018 to 2014 is silly, they have nothing in common. 2018 V. 2016/2015, while stylistically different, they are all quality vintages. Though there are better wines in 2018 than both previously mentioned vintages. IMO, 2018 is a better wine than previously offered vintages, I do not see the issue of a price hike. If a 2018 wine is less in quality, the price should also reflect that reality.
Jeff, you're a very knowledgeable voice on Bordeaux, but you're only one, and you've made it clear you love the vintage. While I appreciate your tasting notes and your great website, your palate and mine gravitate toward different styles.

Comparing 14 to 18 in VCC is not silly. They're going to be on the shelf at the same time, and other critics have rated them equally or similarly (JR/JH, for example at 18.5 each and AG at 96 v 94-97). I don't have unlimited funds to allocate toward Bordeaux, so I look at these futures offers and make relative value assessments.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#220 Post by Jeff Leve » June 17th, 2019, 11:21 am

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:07 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am
Nobody should buy wine they consider overpriced, or too expensive for their ability to easily consume a bottle. But in glancing over numerous posts, the comments solely focused on price do not paint an accurate picture. Quality and style should be front and center as it relates to price.

For example, comparing 2018 to 2014 is silly, they have nothing in common. 2018 V. 2016/2015, while stylistically different, they are all quality vintages. Though there are better wines in 2018 than both previously mentioned vintages. IMO, 2018 is a better wine than previously offered vintages, I do not see the issue of a price hike. If a 2018 wine is less in quality, the price should also reflect that reality.
Jeff, you're a very knowledgeable voice on Bordeaux, but you're only one, and you've made it clear you love the vintage. While I appreciate your tasting notes and your great website, your palate and mine gravitate toward different styles.

Comparing 14 to 18 in VCC is not silly. They're going to be on the shelf at the same time, and other critics have rated them equally or similarly (JR/JH, for example at 18.5 each and AG at 96 v 94-97). I don't have unlimited funds to allocate toward Bordeaux, so I look at these futures offers and make relative value assessments.
Jason... I am not saying you should like the style of 2018. As I mentioned, character is, should be the main criteria for buying a wine, if it is affordable. And character/style is all personal preference.

I buy less wine and less expensive wines today than I did previously as I age. So I also look to value assessments to a degree. But not over the character and style of a wine, as I plan on drinking that wine after a least a decade of age. 10 years from now, I would rather have the better wine, (To my taste) by that time, I will have forgotten the price difference paid a decade earlier.

2014 in the years to come will not develop as well as 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016 & 2018. You might prefer the cooler vintage style of 2014, and that's just fine.

FWIW, in the Northern Medoc, 2014 are just great! They also will not equal the previously mentioned vintages, (yet they are close) and the value, character and style make those wines worth taking a serious look at.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#221 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:07 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am
Nobody should buy wine they consider overpriced, or too expensive for their ability to easily consume a bottle. But in glancing over numerous posts, the comments solely focused on price do not paint an accurate picture. Quality and style should be front and center as it relates to price.

For example, comparing 2018 to 2014 is silly, they have nothing in common. 2018 V. 2016/2015, while stylistically different, they are all quality vintages. Though there are better wines in 2018 than both previously mentioned vintages. IMO, 2018 is a better wine than previously offered vintages, I do not see the issue of a price hike. If a 2018 wine is less in quality, the price should also reflect that reality.
Jeff, you're a very knowledgeable voice on Bordeaux, but you're only one, and you've made it clear you love the vintage. While I appreciate your tasting notes and your great website, your palate and mine gravitate toward different styles.

Comparing 14 to 18 in VCC is not silly. They're going to be on the shelf at the same time, and other critics have rated them equally or similarly (JR/JH, for example at 18.5 each and AG at 96 v 94-97). I don't have unlimited funds to allocate toward Bordeaux, so I look at these futures offers and make relative value assessments.
I think that is the point. With few exceptions, none of us have unlimited funds, and therefore we are forced to choose. I have tasted 2014, and if it wasn’t the wine of the vintage, I cannot think of one I preferred. It was also made in a style that I like, and if I did not already own some, at 60% of the price of 2018, I would buy it over the 2018s.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#222 Post by Adam Levyn » June 17th, 2019, 7:04 pm

Now that the releases are almost done - what do folks think about the end pricing for the vintage?

Any wines jump out as a good value or anything that was surprising in the end?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#223 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 17th, 2019, 7:32 pm

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:07 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am
Nobody should buy wine they consider overpriced, or too expensive for their ability to easily consume a bottle. But in glancing over numerous posts, the comments solely focused on price do not paint an accurate picture. Quality and style should be front and center as it relates to price.

For example, comparing 2018 to 2014 is silly, they have nothing in common. 2018 V. 2016/2015, while stylistically different, they are all quality vintages. Though there are better wines in 2018 than both previously mentioned vintages. IMO, 2018 is a better wine than previously offered vintages, I do not see the issue of a price hike. If a 2018 wine is less in quality, the price should also reflect that reality.
Jeff, you're a very knowledgeable voice on Bordeaux, but you're only one, and you've made it clear you love the vintage. While I appreciate your tasting notes and your great website, your palate and mine gravitate toward different styles.

Comparing 14 to 18 in VCC is not silly. They're going to be on the shelf at the same time, and other critics have rated them equally or similarly (JR/JH, for example at 18.5 each and AG at 96 v 94-97). I don't have unlimited funds to allocate toward Bordeaux, so I look at these futures offers and make relative value assessments.
Some of us agree with you, Jason. I, for one, love 2014. I went deep. And if you like VCC, backfill on 2001 and 2004. Excellent, maturing vintages of this killer wine, at prices well below these new releases. I’d take those two vintages over new releases all day long. And don’t forget 2011.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#224 Post by Tom Reddick » June 17th, 2019, 11:22 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:08 am
Tom Reddick wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 10:11 pm
at a certain age even top vintages in half bottle trade at a discount in the secondary market due to a lack of demand.
This has most definitely not been my experience (although I am not often buying the likes of Lafite). If you want to drink half bottles (and I do) buy them as futures. They are devilishly hard to find thereafter and (again in my experience) you pay a premium for them.

I suspect that for the prestige labels, I could see a diminished auction value for truly aged halves. There is no doubt less "prestige" to opening a half bottle. They are "cute" not "impressive." But if you are drinking alone or mid-week or at lunch and just want a glass or two, they are perfect. It also allows you to drink two (or more) different wines over the course of a meal. I love them. I wish very much I had purchased more wine in halves earlier in my obsession.
I cannot speak to the wider range of most Bordeaux in the secondary market, but half bottles of the first growths- even in top vintages- have a tendency to trade at a discount. That is not always the case- but it is the norm. Hence my advice with regards to Lafite- but with the caveat that if the poster knows he will want halves for drinking, then now is the best time to get them since they will be far easier to find than later.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#225 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 18th, 2019, 6:22 am

Tom Reddick wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:22 pm
Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 5:08 am
Tom Reddick wrote:
June 15th, 2019, 10:11 pm
at a certain age even top vintages in half bottle trade at a discount in the secondary market due to a lack of demand.
This has most definitely not been my experience (although I am not often buying the likes of Lafite). If you want to drink half bottles (and I do) buy them as futures. They are devilishly hard to find thereafter and (again in my experience) you pay a premium for them.

I suspect that for the prestige labels, I could see a diminished auction value for truly aged halves. There is no doubt less "prestige" to opening a half bottle. They are "cute" not "impressive." But if you are drinking alone or mid-week or at lunch and just want a glass or two, they are perfect. It also allows you to drink two (or more) different wines over the course of a meal. I love them. I wish very much I had purchased more wine in halves earlier in my obsession.
I cannot speak to the wider range of most Bordeaux in the secondary market, but half bottles of the first growths- even in top vintages- have a tendency to trade at a discount. That is not always the case- but it is the norm. Hence my advice with regards to Lafite- but with the caveat that if the poster knows he will want halves for drinking, then now is the best time to get them since they will be far easier to find than later.
Can't disagree with this at all. I know little about the 1st growth 375 market (I own one such bottle, 2006 Latour, and I bought it because it was, in fact, cheaper than one would expect). Outside of the top 10 wines or so, though, I would not expect 375 bargains beyond the futures market
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#226 Post by ChristopherSK » June 18th, 2019, 7:42 am

Let me start with where I am buying. As John Fox is currently still in federal custody at FCI Sheridan in Oregon, I no longer am able to obtain his wonderful deals. The Fraudster Fox taught all of us that the entities from whom we buy wine futures are businesses, which certainly can go under, (especially if they are fully or partially based on fraud) possibly putting us in the realm of bankruptcy court or needing to contact our credit card company to (try) to request a refund. I have bought futures over the years from Millesima's NYC store which has an easy to manage web site. Their prices are often the lowest you can find for a particular wine, most of the time. The company is financially sound, the selection is huge and includes many very reasonably priced under $20 buck wines that one can order in magnums without any upcharge (shocking) or in half bottles for a $25 buck upcharge. Last thing to note about Millesima; you do not have to buy the wine in case lots, but to buy multiple bottles you will have to call the store.

I have to date only ordered two very affordable wines, the 2018 Chateau Lanessan and the Chateau Capbern. Once case each of 375's and 750's. Why? Both of these Chateaus are tremendous QPR wines. My experiences have shown me that Lanessan can aged quite well, and I expect Capbern to be very ageable. (I had a bottle of 2000 Lanessan over the weekend, and it still had years to go if I wanted to wait.) I will order some less than case lots of 2018 half bottles within a few weeks. Langoa Barton, Sociando Mallet, Meyney, Duhart Milon, Gloria, and a yet to be named Pessac. Frankly, now that the first tranche 2018 prices are set, it allows me to put in proper perspective the pricing and possible purchase of back vintages.
Last edited by ChristopherSK on June 18th, 2019, 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#227 Post by Jason L Jones » June 18th, 2019, 8:39 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 10:08 am

Jason... I am not saying you should like the style of 2018. As I mentioned, character is, should be the main criteria for buying a wine, if it is affordable. And character/style is all personal preference.

I buy less wine and less expensive wines today than I did previously as I age. So I also look to value assessments to a degree. But not over the character and style of a wine, as I plan on drinking that wine after a least a decade of age. 10 years from now, I would rather have the better wine, (To my taste) by that time, I will have forgotten the price difference paid a decade earlier.

2014 in the years to come will not develop as well as 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016 & 2018. You might prefer the cooler vintage style of 2014, and that's just fine.

FWIW, in the Northern Medoc, 2014 are just great! They also will not equal the previously mentioned vintages, (yet they are close) and the value, character and style make those wines worth taking a serious look at.
Thanks Jeff, I'll take a look at the Northern Medoc 14s with some of the money I'm not spending on these 18s. [stirthepothal.gif]

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#228 Post by Jason L Jones » June 18th, 2019, 8:47 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 7:32 pm
Some of us agree with you, Jason. I, for one, love 2014. I went deep. And if you like VCC, backfill on 2001 and 2004. Excellent, maturing vintages of this killer wine, at prices well below these new releases. I’d take those two vintages over new releases all day long. And don’t forget 2011.
Thanks Robert. I recently picked up some 11 on the advice on this board, (probably yours) since I think our palates probably line up pretty well (I own more Sociando than just about anything). I'll keep an eye out for the 01 and 04s. Last holiday season I opened a mag of 88 and it was spectacular.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#229 Post by Adam Levyn » June 18th, 2019, 5:01 pm

Magnums of Ausone are sold out at Total Wine and some other locations...seems like folks like that this year. Thanks for the recommendation Crickey!

Curious, what did you end up buying (if anything) this year once it is all said and done?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#230 Post by Alan Rath » June 18th, 2019, 5:37 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:21 am
2014 in the years to come will not develop as well as 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016 & 2018. You might prefer the cooler vintage style of 2014, and that's just fine.
That is a bold prediction. I would say that 2014 will develop and last *much* better than 2015, at least. Not sure about 2009 and 2010, but my own experience tells me that wines from slightly cooler "off" vintages often do outlast and develop more interest than the bigger "acclaimed" vintages. I love 2016, and think it will ultimately trump 2014 in the long term, and have zero experience yet with 2018.

I'll relate something apropos from a dinner I did recently: several older Chave Hermitage bottles. 99 is THE acclaimed vintage, no? Among others, we had 97 and 2000, bracketing the 99. Give me the 97 and 2000 every day over that 99, far better and more interesting wines.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#231 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 18th, 2019, 5:52 pm

2014 will mature just fine. Jeffois just likes his vintages OTT! Look back at slightly leaner vintages over the last 30 or so years. They continue to evolve quite nicely, and some might posit, even better than overly-solar vintages. All a matter of taste. Don’t confuse opinion with fact. All we have in this subjective universe of wine is opinion. And your palate is right 100% of the time. Not everyone shares Jeff’s palate, or his conviction of certitude.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#232 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 5:52 pm
2014 will mature just fine. Jeffois just likes his vintages OTT! Look back at slightly leaner vintages over the last 30 or so years. They continue to evolve quite nicely, and some might posit, even better than overly-solar vintages. All a matter of taste. Don’t confuse opinion with fact. All we have in this subjective universe of wine is opinion. And your palate is right 100% of the time. Not everyone shares Jeff’s palate, or his conviction of certitude.
Or to put it another way, 2014 is a classic Bordeaux vintage. It will age very nicely, and the best wines will make for interesting comparisons with fuller more opulent vintages favored by Jeff. Beware of Jeff ‘s pronouncements of absolute quality, which as Robert pointed out, may differ from that of the God chosen, supremely intelligent and correct palates of the rest of us.🇬🇧🇬🇧
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#233 Post by Craig G » June 18th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Are you saying Jeff has a Welsh palate?
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#234 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 18th, 2019, 7:48 pm

Craig G wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 7:26 pm
Are you saying Jeff has a Welch’s palate?
FIFY

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#235 Post by Jeff Leve » June 19th, 2019, 8:24 am

Alan Rath wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 5:37 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 11:21 am
2014 in the years to come will not develop as well as 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016 & 2018. You might prefer the cooler vintage style of 2014, and that's just fine.
That is a bold prediction. I would say that 2014 will develop and last *much* better than 2015, at least. Not sure about 2009 and 2010, but my own experience tells me that wines from slightly cooler "off" vintages often do outlast and develop more interest than the bigger "acclaimed" vintages. I love 2016, and think it will ultimately trump 2014 in the long term, and have zero experience yet with 2018.
Alan... It is not a bold prediction. I have over 18,00 tasting notes on my site to back up why I feel that way. Personally, I cannot think of any cooler vintage that has aged better than a warm, sunny, dry year in Bordeaux.

I'll relate something apropos from a dinner I did recently: several older Chave Hermitage bottles. 99 is THE acclaimed vintage, no? Among others, we had 97 and 2000, bracketing the 99. Give me the 97 and 2000 every day over that 99, far better and more interesting wines.

I like all those vintages of Chave, but for me, 99 has more depth.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#236 Post by Jeff Leve » June 19th, 2019, 8:29 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 5:52 pm
2014 will mature just fine. Jeffois just likes his vintages OTT! Look back at slightly leaner vintages over the last 30 or so years. They continue to evolve quite nicely, and some might posit, even better than overly-solar vintages. All a matter of taste. Don’t confuse opinion with fact. All we have in this subjective universe of wine is opinion. And your palate is right 100% of the time. Not everyone shares Jeff’s palate, or his conviction of certitude.
Robert is right. I am expressing my opinion. Of course I am right, but that's a different story neener

My taste does not lean to the lean vintages, true.

2014 in the Northern Medoc should develop quite well for decades. I am not so sure about other appellations.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#237 Post by Alan Rath » June 19th, 2019, 9:12 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 8:24 am
I like all those vintages of Chave, but for me, 99 has more depth.
Which is precisely why I gave this example. 99 Chave is an inferior wine, despite all its acclaim. Warmer vintages that show well young often aren't the best with age. Obviously this is opinion and personal preference, but it holds true for someone with my tastes, regardless of how many tasting notes I have ;)
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#238 Post by Jeff Leve » June 19th, 2019, 9:20 am

Alan Rath wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:12 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 8:24 am
I like all those vintages of Chave, but for me, 99 has more depth.
Which is precisely why I gave this example. 99 Chave is an inferior wine,
99 Chave is inferior to what?

FWIW, IMO, 99 Chave is very good, although I prefer, 89, 90, 03, 09, 10 and 15, which I find mind-blowing!

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#239 Post by Alan Rath » June 19th, 2019, 9:55 am

I just had 89, 97, 99, 00, 02, 07, 08. 89 is beautiful. I've had 99 a few times in last couple years, it has always been lacking. 03 is a terrible wine. You love warm, ripe vintages, I much prefer "off" vintages, like 02, 04, 07, 11, even 14. They will develop and be much more interesting than anything divisible by 3 ;)
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#240 Post by Greg K » June 19th, 2019, 11:13 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:20 am
Alan Rath wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:12 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 8:24 am
I like all those vintages of Chave, but for me, 99 has more depth.
Which is precisely why I gave this example. 99 Chave is an inferior wine,
99 Chave is inferior to what?

FWIW, IMO, 99 Chave is very good, although I prefer, 89, 90, 03, 09, 10 and 15, which I find mind-blowing!
Jeff, this is why many of us disagree with you regarding the quality of wine and its ageworthiness, especially when you say that you think the wine being made now is OBJECTIVELY better. You rate the 03 Sorrel Le Greal extremely highly; we opened a bottle a couple months ago and we left most of it sitting on the table because it was almost undrinkable, and not because of any inherent fault in the wine. I've not had the 03 Chave, but I strongly suspect it's similar to the 03 Le Greal, and I expect that it's not a good wine at all.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#241 Post by Jeff Leve » June 19th, 2019, 11:29 am

Greg K wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:13 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:20 am
Alan Rath wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:12 am

Which is precisely why I gave this example. 99 Chave is an inferior wine,
99 Chave is inferior to what?

FWIW, IMO, 99 Chave is very good, although I prefer, 89, 90, 03, 09, 10 and 15, which I find mind-blowing!
Jeff, this is why many of us disagree with you regarding the quality of wine and its ageworthiness, especially when you say that you think the wine being made now is OBJECTIVELY better. You rate the 03 Sorrel Le Greal extremely highly; we opened a bottle a couple months ago and we left most of it sitting on the table because it was almost undrinkable, and not because of any inherent fault in the wine. I've not had the 03 Chave, but I strongly suspect it's similar to the 03 Le Greal, and I expect that it's not a good wine at all.
Greg... I have not had the Le Greal for close to 5 years. But I have had 03 Chave several times. It is the uniqueness of the character that grabs me. The wine is incredibly concentrated and intense. I suspect it will take at least another decade for the wine to come around and become civilized. Cleary, it is not a text-book character. And I suspect some will not find it to their liking. Especially in its youth. But my bet is, the wine will offer unparalleled drinking for decades to come.

2003 Northern Rhone is for me, much better than 2003 Chateauneuf. I sold off, or drank almost every bottle of Southern Rhone 03. But I am hanging on to all my 2003 Hermitage/Cote Rotie.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#242 Post by Greg K » June 19th, 2019, 11:43 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:29 am
Greg K wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:13 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 9:20 am


99 Chave is inferior to what?

FWIW, IMO, 99 Chave is very good, although I prefer, 89, 90, 03, 09, 10 and 15, which I find mind-blowing!
Jeff, this is why many of us disagree with you regarding the quality of wine and its ageworthiness, especially when you say that you think the wine being made now is OBJECTIVELY better. You rate the 03 Sorrel Le Greal extremely highly; we opened a bottle a couple months ago and we left most of it sitting on the table because it was almost undrinkable, and not because of any inherent fault in the wine. I've not had the 03 Chave, but I strongly suspect it's similar to the 03 Le Greal, and I expect that it's not a good wine at all.
Greg... I have not had the Le Greal for close to 5 years. But I have had 03 Chave several times. It is the uniqueness of the character that grabs me. The wine is incredibly concentrated and intense. I suspect it will take at least another decade for the wine to come around and become civilized. Cleary, it is not a text-book character. And I suspect some will not find it to their liking. Especially in its youth. But my bet is, the wine will offer unparalleled drinking for decades to come.

2003 Northern Rhone is for me, much better than 2003 Chateauneuf. I sold off, or drank almost every bottle of Southern Rhone 03. But I am hanging on to all my 2003 Hermitage/Cote Rotie.
Jeff, I understand your opinion. And I don't think you're wrong for your palate. But I think 03 Northern Rhone is the worst Northern Rhone vintage in my lifetime, and it's not close. I've gotten rid of every single 03 Northern Rhone I own. Neither opinion is objective, which is also why I think comments about objectively better wines being made strike some of us as dubious.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#243 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 19th, 2019, 12:22 pm

I have had the Chave 2003 twice. Nasty stuff. Can’t argue with Jeff’s description except that he failed to mention its pruney sweetness. Reminded me of the Bonneau cuvée reserve 1990, which has not evolved well.

It was interesting how much I dislike most of the wines made by Jean Louis. Chave was one of the few wines I bought every year; but the only vintage I have bought recently was 2010.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#244 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 19th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Yea 2003 really showcases our divergences. I think it’s a terrible vintage in the Rhône. About 1/3 of my “cellar” is Rhône, mostly Northern Rhône, and not a single bottle is from 2003. None.

Buyer beware on that vintage.

Heck, I barely own any 2003 Bordeaux, and those that I do, are Northern Medoc, mostly St Estephe, plus Sociando.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#245 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 19th, 2019, 1:52 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 1:38 pm
Yea 2003 really showcases our divergences. I think it’s a terrible vintage in the Rhône. About 1/3 of my “cellar” is Rhône, mostly Northern Rhône, and not a single bottle is from 2003. None.

Buyer beware on that vintage.

Heck, I barely own any 2003 Bordeaux, and those that I do, are Northern Medoc, mostly St Estephe, plus Sociando.
2003 is the only vintage since 1993 with no representation in my cellar. From anywhere. (Drank all 1992s at this point so there is a “gap” or it would go back further.) Never bought a single bottle. Never back-filled.

2003 Chave I’ve only tried once. I will try not to repeat that.

There was clear break for me between the 1998 and 1999 Chave although I know other people think the break occurred earlier and others say the quality has never been better. 1997 Chave is nice wine although for my taste not quite at the interest level as 95, 96, and 98.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux - What are you buying (and why)?

#246 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » June 19th, 2019, 2:10 pm

Alan - 2004 and 2007 are divisible by 3 ;)

I've tried quite a few '03 Northern Rhones, including highly regarded and rated labels, but not had an encounter with the Chave. They were uniformly awful. If anyone salvaged a half-way decent wine from that vintage it could have been Chave. But I wouldn't be hopeful.
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