2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

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rfelthoven
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2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#1 Post by rfelthoven » May 3rd, 2019, 3:52 pm

I've been reading some pretty concerning notes on CT regarding the 2012 Huet CDB (premox, off flavors). Very consistently poor across several individuals. I opened one last week that was very advanced. For reference, my passive cellar is quite cool, often in the 40s and 50s and never getting past the low 60s in the summer. So I haven't cooked or otherwise ruined the wines myself.

Today I opened a 2012 Le Mont, and while not entirely unpleasant, it is golden, bordering on orange. There are sherry notes. I have like 5 more bottles of the CDB and Le Mont. I've never seen this issue with the older 2010s. This blows.

Has it always been safer to age only the stickies or is this a new trend for Huet?
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#2 Post by Doug Schulman » May 3rd, 2019, 3:55 pm

I don't have any 2012s, but this concerns me.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#3 Post by Frank Murray III » May 3rd, 2019, 3:56 pm

Really? I stopped buying in 2011, but 2012 being in the pooper?
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Occidental Ridge SC
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#4 Post by AAgrawal » May 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm

I have mostly '14s and on, and haven't seen any issue with those yet. I heard the 2002s had some issue, though I'm no expert on the issue, and I didn't think other vintages had a problem. I have had some oxidation on other Loire producers like Chidaine, but not with Huet.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#5 Post by Frank Murray III » May 3rd, 2019, 3:58 pm

Chidaine has not been bad for me, Ashish. I have mostly 2005-2010 now left and aside from a few, the balance have showed good energy and balance.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Occidental Ridge SC
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#6 Post by ryancurry » May 3rd, 2019, 4:04 pm

Awesome. Just found 3 bottles of 2012 LHL sec today :)
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#7 Post by Frank Murray III » May 3rd, 2019, 4:06 pm

ryancurry wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 4:04 pm
Awesome. Just found 3 bottles of 2012 LHL sec today :)
You're demented, Curry. [tease.gif]

Miss seeing you, man.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Occidental Ridge SC
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#8 Post by CJ Beazley » May 3rd, 2019, 4:10 pm

Bookmark this for ‘Best Title’ for the awards season.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#9 Post by mmarcellus » May 3rd, 2019, 4:57 pm

Assuming that there is a problem with 2012, could this be a one year issue due to Pinguet's sudden resignation? What's the consensus on 2013's and later?

I did stop buying after 2011, because that whole episode didn't sit well with me, and there are plenty of other (and cheaper) Vouvray producers that I love. But I still hope the estate has found it's bearings. Losing Huet permanently to the dark side would be tragic.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#10 Post by M Mager » May 3rd, 2019, 5:10 pm

I opened a 2012 Le Mont Sec a couple months ago. I remember thinking that wine was in a really good place when I tasted it, but maybe just a bit more evolved than I would have expected. No where near what you describe in the one you had, and certainly nothing I would have thought of as impending pre-mox. All I thought at that time was that 2012 wouldn't likely not be one of the more age-worthy Huet vintages.

I've got more Le Mont and Le Haut Lieu than CdB in 2012 - guess I should try another one soon...

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#11 Post by John Morris » May 3rd, 2019, 5:21 pm

rfelthoven wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 3:52 pm
Has it always been safer to age only the stickies or is this a new trend for Huet?
There were serious problems with premox on the 02 secs and the 02 petillant (sparkling).
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#12 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 3rd, 2019, 5:33 pm

Skipped 11 and 12. Which was easy because I wasn’t really buying any wine when they were in the market.

No problem aging Petillant, Secs, and DSs for (multiple) decades historically.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#13 Post by Michae1 P0wers » May 3rd, 2019, 5:37 pm

Frank Murray III wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 3:58 pm
Chidaine has not been bad for me, Ashish. I have mostly 2005-2010 now left and aside from a few, the balance have showed good energy and balance.
I feel like something happened there after 2010. 2014s for me were disastrous. Massive oxidation issues.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#14 Post by John Morris » May 3rd, 2019, 5:38 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:33 pm
Skipped 11 and 12. Which was easy because I wasn’t really buying any wine when they were in the market.

No problem aging Petillant, Secs, and DSs for (multiple) decades historically.
You didn't buy the 02s, I take it.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#15 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 3rd, 2019, 5:50 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:38 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:33 pm
Skipped 11 and 12. Which was easy because I wasn’t really buying any wine when they were in the market.

No problem aging Petillant, Secs, and DSs for (multiple) decades historically.
You didn't buy the 02s, I take it.
I did!! And a few years ago I got rid of it all.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#16 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 3rd, 2019, 6:06 pm

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:37 pm
Frank Murray III wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 3:58 pm
Chidaine has not been bad for me, Ashish. I have mostly 2005-2010 now left and aside from a few, the balance have showed good energy and balance.
I feel like something happened there after 2010. 2014s for me were disastrous. Massive oxidation issues.
I bought a bunch of the 2014s, and they turned to crap in only a couple of years.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#17 Post by Chris Blum » May 3rd, 2019, 6:16 pm

I mostly have older ones but I do have a few ‘14s that I got as swaps when Premier Cru couldn’t source some wines I’d bought.

I’ll have to pull a couple.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#18 Post by rfelthoven » May 3rd, 2019, 6:31 pm

I’m only talking 12s. Hopefully others aren’t screwed.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#19 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 3rd, 2019, 6:59 pm

Don’t forget Huets historically shut down and have an awkward adolescence in which they can seem oxidized and funky, only to snap back after a couple more years in the cellar. Even if ‘11-‘12 weren’t such difficult vintages, I wouldn’t be touching them now. Other than ‘16-‘17, the youngest Huet wines I’d think about touching now are ‘09s, maybe ‘10s. And then going back in time ....

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#20 Post by David_K » May 3rd, 2019, 7:08 pm

Yes, the Chidaine '14s went to hell *really* fast. A shame because they were amazing on release.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#21 Post by AAgrawal » May 3rd, 2019, 7:48 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 6:59 pm
Don’t forget Huets historically shut down and have an awkward adolescence in which they can seem oxidized and funky, only to snap back after a couple more years in the cellar. Even if ‘11-‘12 weren’t such difficult vintages, I wouldn’t be touching them now. Other than ‘16-‘17, the youngest Huet wines I’d think about touching now are ‘09s, maybe ‘10s. And then going back in time ....
Good to know. I don't have a lot of experience with Huet, but I bought some '14-'17s based on tasting them young and haven't made my way back to them. I was going to circle back soon, but now I may give them a few more years. Still, it's rare that I've had a Huet that has just been disappointing.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#22 Post by Brad Kane » May 3rd, 2019, 9:45 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 6:59 pm
Don’t forget Huets historically shut down and have an awkward adolescence in which they can seem oxidized and funky, only to snap back after a couple more years in the cellar. Even if ‘11-‘12 weren’t such difficult vintages, I wouldn’t be touching them now. Other than ‘16-‘17, the youngest Huet wines I’d think about touching now are ‘09s, maybe ‘10s. And then going back in time ....
I'm not convinced this rule holds true anymore in the age of global warming and less sulfur, Jayson. I think things have changed with regard to the non-sweet wines.

Now, that said, before folks start the premox hysteria, let's all remember that '11-'13 were tough vintages for Loire Chenin. Like Jayson, I found them an easy pass.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#23 Post by Steve Brickley » May 4th, 2019, 1:04 am

Stepped over that pile by jumping from 2009 to 2014.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#24 Post by Eric Sch » May 4th, 2019, 7:57 am

David_K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Yes, the Chidaine '14s went to hell *really* fast. A shame because they were amazing on release.
I had a 14 Les Choisilles this week and it was very good over 2 nights. I've had a couple that were more advanced than they should be but that's not been the case for all.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#25 Post by Claus Jeppesen » May 4th, 2019, 8:04 am

Steve Brickley wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 1:04 am
Stepped over that pile by jumping from 2009 to 2014.
2010 was great almost for all Loire Chenin
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#26 Post by Rich Brown » May 4th, 2019, 8:09 am

Damn, I hope the 12's arent done for- Daughters birth year so continue to buy them with the plan to hold longer term.

FWIW, I've had a smattering of 05 demis, 10 petillants, 11 secs, and 14 demis, and I dont think I've had an advanced bottle yet. Maybe I've been #lucky.....but heres to hoping that trend keeps up

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#27 Post by ATaylor » May 4th, 2019, 8:46 pm

Just popped....color definitely a deep yellow/pale orange. No oxidation on the nose; letting it sit for a while.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#28 Post by ATaylor » May 4th, 2019, 10:03 pm

I pulled this after seieing the thread and have 3 LM in the cellar. Sat in the glass for 15 mins. Nose has not moved much and nothing oxidative. Palate is dried apricot, jellied quince and an acacia honey; acidity is still present. A very pleasant bottle and the Beaufort cheese was a nice match. Good enough to let the other two sit for a few more years before checking in on the next one.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#29 Post by Rich Brown » May 4th, 2019, 10:22 pm

ATaylor wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 10:03 pm
I pulled this after seieing the thread and have 3 LM in the cellar. Sat in the glass for 15 mins. Nose has not moved much and nothing oxidative. Palate is dried apricot, jellied quince and an acacia honey; acidity is still present. A very pleasant bottle and the Beaufort cheese was a nice match. Good enough to let the other two sit for a few more years before checking in on the next one.
Niiiice. Love the note/hearing that - thanks for popping/posting!

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#30 Post by J.Vizuete » May 4th, 2019, 10:59 pm

Rich Brown wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 10:22 pm
ATaylor wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 10:03 pm
I pulled this after seieing the thread and have 3 LM in the cellar. Sat in the glass for 15 mins. Nose has not moved much and nothing oxidative. Palate is dried apricot, jellied quince and an acacia honey; acidity is still present. A very pleasant bottle and the Beaufort cheese was a nice match. Good enough to let the other two sit for a few more years before checking in on the next one.
Niiiice. Love the note/hearing that - thanks for popping/posting!
Second that! This is a very high yeild thread for me. As someone holding birth wines for the long haul, I had a 2014 Le Mont sec a couple months ago that made me wish I’d bought a case. Although in fairness that may have been from showing some early advancement...
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#31 Post by Mel Knox » May 5th, 2019, 11:37 am

My 2005s went south relatively quickly. Premox?
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#32 Post by Brad Kane » May 5th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 11:37 am
My 2005s went south relatively quickly. Premox?
I just had an '05 Le Mont Demi-Sec last night that was lovely, if a bit plump due to the vintage.

We really need to get off this premox hysteria, people. There's only been one known vintage where the domaine had widespread issues with it and that was 2002. Some things to remember are that 1) Chenin tends to showy oxy with some age on it, 2) the main culprit behind bottles that show advanced is poor storage somewhere in the chain, 3) Premox in whites pretty much show up consistently in the 7-9 year age mark after vintage, be it White Burgs, Alsatian Riesling, Loire Chenin, etc. and then you have to look at global reports, not specific markets so you can get a more accurate take on if a problem exists, 4) Vintages matter.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#33 Post by Rich Brown » May 5th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Brad Kane wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 11:37 am
My 2005s went south relatively quickly. Premox?
I just had an '05 Le Mont Demi-Sec last night that was lovely, if a bit plump due to the vintage.

We really need to get off this premox hysteria, people. There's only been one known vintage where the domaine had widespread issues with it and that was 2002. Some things to remember are that 1) Chenin tends to showy oxy with some age on it, 2) the main culprit behind bottles that show advanced is poor storage somewhere in the chain, 3) Premox in whites pretty much show up consistently in the 7-9 year age mark after vintage, be it White Burgs, Alsatian Riesling, Loire Chenin, etc. and then you have to look at global reports, not specific markets so you can get a more accurate take on if a problem exists, 4) Vintages matter.
That's the same wine I've had a few times recently and each one has been fantastic. Have a handful left that I'm in no rush to drink based on these last bottles, but they're definitely in a great spot right now for my palate.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#34 Post by Mel Knox » May 5th, 2019, 2:48 pm

I went to school in Tours in the '60s. We routinely drank wines that were 30 years old. The 2005 Secs I had were going south rapidly.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#35 Post by Brad Kane » May 5th, 2019, 2:50 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 2:48 pm
I went to school in Tours in the '60s. We routinely drank wines that were 30 years old. The 2005 Secs I had were going south rapidly.
Then I'd blame shipping/storage and/or the fact that it's a fat vintage and better for the sweetstuff, than dry.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#36 Post by Mel Knox » May 5th, 2019, 4:14 pm

I ll accept that I won't buy any more.

What do we have here?? Complaints about 2002, 2005, 2012?? Not a good record.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#37 Post by Mel Knox » May 5th, 2019, 4:16 pm

By the way, the headline refers --at least in my mind--to deGaulle's chie-en-lit speech.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#38 Post by Brad Kane » May 5th, 2019, 8:51 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 4:14 pm
I ll accept that I won't buy any more.

What do we have here?? Complaints about 2002, 2005, 2012?? Not a good record.
Mel, a couple of people complaining about a few off bottles, a la 2005, does not a problem make. With 2002, the problems started at the proper time established for premox in lots of other bottlings and there were numerous reports from bottles consumed all over the world. That's how you establish if an issue is legitimate, or not. As far as 2012 goes, hey, it wasn't a strong vintage and there was a transition in the winemaking team. Funny enough, their wines returned to form and have been strong once good vintages returned '14-'17.

Now, all that said, Vouvray, like so many other regions, is not the same as it was. There's global warming, there's less sulfur use, there's wineries not pressing grapes as hard as they did before, so they no longer have all the phenolics they once had. The jury is out for how long long sec and demi-secs, in particular, will last. I'm not concerned about the sweeties ageability at this point.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#39 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 5th, 2019, 9:14 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 4:14 pm
I ll accept that I won't buy any more.

What do we have here?? Complaints about 2002, 2005, 2012?? Not a good record.
I think you need to go back to 1919 (still drinking) to fully assess the “record” here. And, what Brad said.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#40 Post by rfelthoven » May 6th, 2019, 8:00 am

I hope I didn't get anyone worried unnecessarily. As always, YMMV. After reading the recent, pretty consistent CT notes below on the Le Mont and CDB, I got concerned. I opened both and found them to be in poor shape. For reference, I've been watching the evolution of the 2010s and they come off as much more youthful and enjoyable. I guess the best advice I can give you is to not sleep on these; open one up and if you like it, leave the rest alone. But you might find the opposite. Just trying to help. Cheers all.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#41 Post by Mel Knox » May 6th, 2019, 8:08 am

We see reports of people drinking their mid 80s white Burgundies and these folks are happy as clams. Not that we really know if clams are happy.
But somewhere around 1996 things changed in the Cote d Or and there should be no surprise if things changed elsewhere.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#42 Post by R. Frankel » May 6th, 2019, 8:17 am

I have some of these (been buying mostly Le Mont sec since 2010) and will be sad if some bottles are bad. I’ll pop a ‘12 and ‘13 soon to see.

I have opened a ‘12 as recently as last year and it was fine, as expected. Any my stash of ‘02s (last one consumed in 2016) were all good.

I’m not saying there’s no problem. But it’s not clear there’s a universal one. At least the prices on these are nothing like Grand Cru White Burg!
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#43 Post by Viet Ly » May 6th, 2019, 9:35 am

Brad Kane wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Mel Knox wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 11:37 am
My 2005s went south relatively quickly. Premox?
We really need to get off this premox hysteria, people. There's only been one known vintage where the domaine had widespread issues with it and that was 2002. Some things to remember are that 1) Chenin tends to showy oxy with some age on it, 2) the main culprit behind bottles that show advanced is poor storage somewhere in the chain, 3) Premox in whites pretty much show up consistently in the 7-9 year age mark after vintage, be it White Burgs, Alsatian Riesling, Loire Chenin, etc. and then you have to look at global reports, not specific markets so you can get a more accurate take on if a problem exists, 4) Vintages matter.
Thanks for your post Brad. I found it very helpful due to my inexperience with these wines.

Here are my notes from two recent bottles of 2014 Domaine Huet Vouvray Sec Clos du Bourg:

8/2/2018 - I LIKE THIS WINE: (Edit)
Lemon curd highlighted with some stone/mineral then comes a touch of honey/waxiness. High acid. I preferred this on the cooler side. As the temp came up the alcohol started to peek out. I really enjoyed this wine for my first Huet. Good wine for food. Purchased a few more to see how things change with age.

5/2/2019 - I WROTE: (Edit)
Second bottle a let down from my first due to the hint of oxidation. Initially served too cold, as the wine warmed the fruit opened up and the wine was much better but the bit of oxidation in the background was still there (but not noticed by others at the dinner). I was reminded that sometimes when we get too analytical it can take away from the enjoyment of the wine. In any case, I hope my other bottles fare better. Will probably pop those sooner than later based on this experience.

Maybe based on this thread I won't jump the gun so quickly for my other bottles.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#44 Post by Mel Knox » May 6th, 2019, 11:57 am

ITB

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#45 Post by Peter Valiquette » May 6th, 2019, 6:29 pm

Any issues with the demi-sec or moelleux?

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#46 Post by John Morris » May 6th, 2019, 9:40 pm

Brad Kane wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 12:03 pm
Premox in whites pretty much show up consistently in the 7-9 year age mark after vintage, be it White Burgs, Alsatian Riesling, Loire Chenin, etc.
[scratch.gif]

I've never heard that view before. Whether something is prematurely oxidized has to be a function of when you would normally expect it to show oxidation, and that varies a lot. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a California chardonnay that was oxidized at seven years. There are certainly wines that have cracked up sooner than 7-9 years that were not expected to.
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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#47 Post by Chris Seiber » May 6th, 2019, 10:24 pm

I’ve had several premoxed Huets from 2010 on in recent years. I’d definitely put it in the medium-high risk category. Same for Chidaine.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#48 Post by Mel Knox » May 6th, 2019, 10:49 pm

For those of you who fear ruining your eyesight by reading the article I posted, I apologize.

Let me recap things:
Viet Ly said his 2014 Huet smelled like honey and wax.

Dubourdieu and Lavigne say that the odours of premoxed wines resembles those of honey and beeswax.

Viet tastes the wine a second time and notices the oxidation, but says he tried not to let his analytic side overwhelm his enjoyment side.

Hmmm...what could be happening to the wine??
ITB

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#49 Post by Brad Kane » May 7th, 2019, 1:51 am

Mel Knox wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 10:49 pm
For those of you who fear ruining your eyesight by reading the article I posted, I apologize.

Let me recap things:
Viet Ly said his 2014 Huet smelled like honey and wax.

Dubourdieu and Lavigne say that the odours of premoxed wines resembles those of honey and beeswax.

Viet tastes the wine a second time and notices the oxidation, but says he tried not to let his analytic side overwhelm his enjoyment side.

Hmmm...what could be happening to the wine??
Except that Chenin usually smells like honey and bees wax. That's its normal profile. As I said, Chenin tends to run oxy, which is different from premoxy.
itb.

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Re: 2012 Huet secs have shit the bed

#50 Post by Viet Ly » May 7th, 2019, 8:14 am

To clarify my post: the first bottle had a honey and waxy note which I associated with the varietal/Chenin but tasted very fresh and I did not associate it with premox. The second bottle had a very faint nose/taste like a white wine that sat in a fridge for a few days. I equated that with very slight pre-mox (very slight sherry vinegar note). Both wines had similar bright straw/yellow color (no obvious dark yellow hue or any hint or orange). Some people are more sensitive than the average to brett/tca. I feel like I may be more sensitive/averse to oxidization in white wine or just don't drink a lot of "aged" white wine. From the top of my head last year's bottle of 2008 Stony Hill Chard was delicious and I've had delicious aged Champagne (2002 Vilmart couple of months ago was great), so I've had a handful of good experiences with white wine with a bit of age on them. Even young white wines recorked and sitting in the fridge for a few days don't taste as "fresh" to me (have not done double blind trials though [snort.gif]).

John: Your post makes sense. I should not be noting "pre-mox" with my level of experience. Maybe more like bottle variation from bottle 1 vs 2? Or perception variation from different days?

Thanks for posting that link Mel, enjoyed reading it and learned a lot from it [cheers.gif]

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