Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

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Josh Grossman
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#151 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:06 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 1:45 pm

It's really the avarice and conspicuous consumption ...that I hate. Size is just an indicator of that motivation.
Can you explain this, please? I do not understand your point.
Jeff, your knowledge of wine is astounding, and I believe I've read your entire site and almost all of your notes. I really am in reverence of you. We don't have the exact same palate, but in general, I trust you as a critic. So first, thank you and I just donated. I believe you are the only wine critic, at your level, who makes their notes so accessible. Wine and art share much in common, I want to enjoy it because it beautiful, not because it's valuable or an investment. Unfortunately, both of those worlds also have a snooty or haughty side that attracts the worst practitioners of conspicuous consumption. I'm digressing, but the ultimate act of conspicuous consumption might be buying a winery. While I'm glad David Koch is passionate about wine, I believe he is one of my least favorite humans on earth, much because of his greed and politics. His $22 million dollar wine auction makes me sick. In general, I want the world, including the wine world, to be more fair and egalitarian. The French revolution didn't guillotine the heads off of Bordeaux owners, like they did Burgundy, because they saw it as more egalitarian; I kind of wonder if it would have been better if they did. Because of this, I do not want to give my money to people on lists like this:
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2017/ ... y-players/

https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/rich ... ed-271238/

I made a thread about it:
https://wineberserkers.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=159758

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#152 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 1:45 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:01 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 5:28 am


Funny you should mention Mouton. In the late 1980s, the winemaker developed a taste for burnt barrels, and some of the wines tasted of coffee. The 1989 was especially weird

There are wines that can take 100% oak without harm, but Guigal’s lala is not one of them.
Josh apparently would not drink Mouton anyway because it is a big company that makes many, many bottles of Mouton Cadet. So, write off Mouton.
It's really the avarice and conspicuous consumption (and new oak) that I hate. Size is just an indicator of that motivation.
You have a problem with Drouhin overusing new oak?????
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#153 Post by David Glasser » May 6th, 2019, 4:00 pm

Josh, this is another version of label drinking. Or maybe anti-label drinking. You can't taste the label, the wealth of the producer, or the number of bottles produced in blind tasting.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being influenced by the label. It's a concern when making buying decisions for most, But there's also nothing wrong with taking factors other than taste and price into consideration when making purchase decisions if they're important to you. You'll get pushback here because the majority tend to discount those extrinsic factors.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#154 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:49 pm
The French revolution didn't guillotine the heads off of Bordeaux owners, like they did Burgundy, because they saw it as more egalitarian;
[rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] Bordeaux, the bastion of the little guy. [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#155 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:03 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:49 pm
The French revolution didn't guillotine the heads off of Bordeaux owners, like they did Burgundy, because they saw it as more egalitarian;
[rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] Bordeaux, the bastion of the little guy. [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#156 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 4:17 pm

Today, most Bordeaux classified estates are owned by banks and insurance companies. I don't care what things were like during the French revolution.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#157 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 6th, 2019, 4:20 pm

Josh,

Do you also detest large American wineries, or is your distaste reserved for the French?

What is the case production limit for being an acceptable winery in your world view? What oak regimen is socially acceptable?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#158 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 4:34 pm

David Glasser wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:00 pm
Josh, this is another version of label drinking. Or maybe anti-label drinking. You can't taste the label, the wealth of the producer, or the number of bottles produced in blind tasting.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being influenced by the label. It's a concern when making buying decisions for most, But there's also nothing wrong with taking factors other than taste and price into consideration when making purchase decisions if they're important to you. You'll get pushback here because the majority tend to discount those extrinsic factors.
Somewhat you are right but combined with trying to buy organic or biodynamic wines, I look at it as more akin to ethical consumerism. If small biodynamic producers were hard to find or making inferior wine it would be one thing--but it's really pretty easy and they are making awesome wine. Greed is also an indicator of being more likely of chasing fads and fraud.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#159 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 6th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Organic and biodynamic are great. There are also smaller producers who cannot take the risk, as a failed vintage ends them. They still make fantastic wine, just lacking the extra merit badge.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#160 Post by Jeff Leve » May 6th, 2019, 5:06 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Somewhat you are right but combined with trying to buy organic or biodynamic wines, I look at it as more akin to ethical consumerism. If small biodynamic producers were hard to find or making inferior wine it would be one thing--but it's really pretty easy and they are making awesome wine. Greed is also an indicator of being more likely of chasing fads and fraud.
Josh

First, thanks for the nice words and the donation. Both are appreciated. Did you know Chateau Latour, owned by Pinault is biodynamic? Chateau Montrose, owned by the Bouygues, also on that list is one of the most, green, energy efficient estates in the world? They offer incentives, health care, living space and other benefits for their workers. The Wertheimer brothers also on the list own Chateau Canon and Rauzan Segla. Both estates are known for being among the lowest priced wines in their class. The Dassault family do not have a single wine over $40, most are probably less.

Some of these people are self-made. That's an accomplishment in my book and it should be celebrated.

If that's your choice, that's your choice. that's fine. But I care about what's in the bottle and in my glass, not how much money people own.

Frankly, if French tax laws were not so odious, making it impossible for many families to inherit their family vineyards, more families would own wineries.

FWIW, Bordeaux chateau owners were beheaded during the revolution. Others fled.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#161 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 5:11 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:20 pm
Josh,

Do you also detest large American wineries, or is your distaste reserved for the French?

What is the case production limit for being an acceptable winery in your world view? What oak regimen is socially acceptable?
Detest is a bit harsh, and it's hard to keep track of who owns and invest in what, but I don't think I own any American wines from 'large' wineries. My cellar is very Eurocentric much because I shy away from the dominant American styles and farming practices though. There is no hard definition, but I did skip Outpost this year because of the sale and stopped buying Roserock when it sold. I guess if you are large enough that a few people can't do sustainable land management or you have a marketing department that isn't also in the vineyards, it's not for me.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#162 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 6th, 2019, 5:17 pm

OK. It’s a narrow view, but your loss.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#163 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 5:36 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Somewhat you are right but combined with trying to buy organic or biodynamic wines, I look at it as more akin to ethical consumerism. If small biodynamic producers were hard to find or making inferior wine it would be one thing--but it's really pretty easy and they are making awesome wine. Greed is also an indicator of being more likely of chasing fads and fraud.
Josh

First, thanks for the nice words and the donation. Both are appreciated. Did you know Chateau Latour, owned by Pinault is biodynamic? Chateau Montrose, owned by the Bouygues, also on that list is one of the most, green, energy efficient estates in the world? They offer incentives, health care, living space and other benefits for their workers. The Wertheimer brothers also on the list own Chateau Canon and Rauzan Segla. Both estates are known for being among the lowest priced wines in their class. The Dassault family do not have a single wine over $40, most are probably less.

Some of these people are self-made. That's an accomplishment in my book and it should be celebrated.

If that's your choice, that's your choice. that's fine. But I care about what's in the bottle and in my glass, not how much money people own.

Frankly, if French tax laws were not so odious, making it impossible for many families to inherit their family vineyards, more families would own wineries.

FWIW, Bordeaux chateau owners were beheaded during the revolution. Others fled.
One of my favorite excerpts was from Louis Bromfield's book, Pleasant Valley. Bromfield was a Pulitzer Prize winning author, who like many, was an expatriate in France after WW1. When WW2 was breaking out, he moved back to Ohio, became a gentleman farmer, and was dedicated to permaculture. He wrote this about coming back to the US:

"I was aware too, quite suddenly, of what it was that attracted me to Europe, and most of all to France; it was the sense of continuity and permanence of small but eternal things, of the incredible resistance and resiliency of the small people. I had found there a continuity which had always been oddly lacking in American life, save in remote corners of the country like parts of New England and the South which were afflicted by decadence, where permanence and continuity of life existed through inertia and defeat. In the true sense, they were the least American of any of the parts of America. They had stood still while the endless pattern of change repeated itself elsewhere in factories, in automobiles, in radio, in the restlessness of the rich and the nomadic quality of the poor. The permanence of the continuity of France was not born of weariness and economic defeat, but was a living thing, anchored to the soil, to the very earth itself. Any French peasant, any French workingman with his little plot of ground and his modest home and wages, which by American standards were small, had more permanence, more solidity, more security, than the American workingman or white-collar worker received...sitting there it occurred to that the high standard of living in America was an illusion, based upon credit and installment plan, which threw a man and his family into the street and on public relief the moment his factory closed and he lost his job. It seemed to me that real continuity, real love of one's country, real permanence had to do not with mechanical inventions and high wage but with the earth a man's love of the soil upon which he lived."

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#164 Post by Mel Knox » May 6th, 2019, 6:03 pm

Talk about thread drift. We started out talking about Marcel Guigal, whose great triumph was buying the negociant firm where his father was maitre de chai and now we are talking about the PC aspects of winery owners.
Before we go on, my attitude about Guigal is this: you may not like his wine--and who can argue taste- but you have to respect how he has built his company from scratch and how he has put Cote Rotie on the map.

I think Bromfield saw the French agricultural economy with rose colored glasses. An interesting aspect of french life is that so many farms have been abandoned that the forest is growing as trees take over former farms. It's Brazil in reverse.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#165 Post by Karl K » May 6th, 2019, 6:07 pm

Interesting quote
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#166 Post by Greg Gardner » May 7th, 2019, 2:19 pm

Ironically, that book quote summarizes the essence of privilege. The author in question had the means to live abroad as an expat, return to the US when war came to his adopted country...and then opine on what was missing in his life at that point. Meanwhile the French farmers he left behind were living under Nazi occupation.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#167 Post by John Morris » May 7th, 2019, 2:32 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 6:03 pm
I think Bromfield saw the French agricultural economy with rose colored glasses. An interesting aspect of french life is that so many farms have been abandoned that the forest is growing as trees take over former farms. It's Brazil in reverse.
Indeed. I've spent a lot of time in rural Ohio, and it was a pretty socially static place until the late 20th Century.

Bromberg really seems to be comparing rural France to urban America, and preferring rural poverty to urban wealth. Pretty much everything he said about the upheavals American industrial workers faced could be said of their French counterparts then and now.

The only enduring traditions he finds in America are in "decadent" (by which I assume he means decaying/poor) New England and the South. Of course, it's the poorest parts of France that remain most unchanged -- the central areas and the peripheries -- the Auverne, Gascony, the Pyranees and the Jura.

Other people's rural poverty can be very quaint.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#168 Post by Greg K » May 7th, 2019, 3:34 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:36 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Somewhat you are right but combined with trying to buy organic or biodynamic wines, I look at it as more akin to ethical consumerism. If small biodynamic producers were hard to find or making inferior wine it would be one thing--but it's really pretty easy and they are making awesome wine. Greed is also an indicator of being more likely of chasing fads and fraud.
Josh

First, thanks for the nice words and the donation. Both are appreciated. Did you know Chateau Latour, owned by Pinault is biodynamic? Chateau Montrose, owned by the Bouygues, also on that list is one of the most, green, energy efficient estates in the world? They offer incentives, health care, living space and other benefits for their workers. The Wertheimer brothers also on the list own Chateau Canon and Rauzan Segla. Both estates are known for being among the lowest priced wines in their class. The Dassault family do not have a single wine over $40, most are probably less.

Some of these people are self-made. That's an accomplishment in my book and it should be celebrated.

If that's your choice, that's your choice. that's fine. But I care about what's in the bottle and in my glass, not how much money people own.

Frankly, if French tax laws were not so odious, making it impossible for many families to inherit their family vineyards, more families would own wineries.

FWIW, Bordeaux chateau owners were beheaded during the revolution. Others fled.
One of my favorite excerpts was from Louis Bromfield's book, Pleasant Valley. Bromfield was a Pulitzer Prize winning author, who like many, was an expatriate in France after WW1. When WW2 was breaking out, he moved back to Ohio, became a gentleman farmer, and was dedicated to permaculture. He wrote this about coming back to the US:

"I was aware too, quite suddenly, of what it was that attracted me to Europe, and most of all to France; it was the sense of continuity and permanence of small but eternal things, of the incredible resistance and resiliency of the small people. I had found there a continuity which had always been oddly lacking in American life, save in remote corners of the country like parts of New England and the South which were afflicted by decadence, where permanence and continuity of life existed through inertia and defeat. In the true sense, they were the least American of any of the parts of America. They had stood still while the endless pattern of change repeated itself elsewhere in factories, in automobiles, in radio, in the restlessness of the rich and the nomadic quality of the poor. The permanence of the continuity of France was not born of weariness and economic defeat, but was a living thing, anchored to the soil, to the very earth itself. Any French peasant, any French workingman with his little plot of ground and his modest home and wages, which by American standards were small, had more permanence, more solidity, more security, than the American workingman or white-collar worker received...sitting there it occurred to that the high standard of living in America was an illusion, based upon credit and installment plan, which threw a man and his family into the street and on public relief the moment his factory closed and he lost his job. It seemed to me that real continuity, real love of one's country, real permanence had to do not with mechanical inventions and high wage but with the earth a man's love of the soil upon which he lived."
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#169 Post by Eric Ifune » May 7th, 2019, 3:48 pm

Back to the myth of Biodynamics. It is, for grape growing, very unsustainable and a bane on the environment.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#170 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 7th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Due to the amount of copper that can be used, or some other reason?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#171 Post by Josh Grossman » May 7th, 2019, 6:13 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 5:12 pm
Due to the amount of copper that can be used, or some other reason?
I look at organic as not using certain pesticides for the health of people where I look at biodynamic as doing things to promote a healthy biome on your farm and your soil. However, much of the biodynamic mumbo jumbo of Rudolf Steiner isn't really based on science; he would have fit in at Lily Dale, New York, if you know what I mean.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#172 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 7th, 2019, 6:21 pm

That doesn’t answer the question.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#173 Post by James Billy » May 7th, 2019, 11:06 pm

I'm not Eric, but I think he means it is low yielding. Also it's risky as it difficult to combat pests and diseases without the aid of chemicals. Result low or sometimes no yield for a given area of land.

With the relative shortage of land and the growing global demand due to rising population, low productivity is a recipe for disaster.

But if you're rich, a follower of fashion and low awareness of the plight of others you might not give a damn.

Flower day Chardonnay anyone?

BTW I'm not saying I believe all of the above. It's just a rational argument from one side of the debate.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#174 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 8th, 2019, 2:15 am

James Billy wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 11:06 pm
I'm not Eric, but I think he means it is low yielding. Also it's risky as it difficult to combat pests and diseases without the aid of chemicals. Result low or sometimes no yield for a given area of land.

With the relative shortage of land and the growing global demand due to rising population, low productivity is a recipe for disaster.

But if you're rich, a follower of fashion and low awareness of the plight of others you might not give a damn.

Flower day Chardonnay anyone?

BTW I'm not saying I believe all of the above. It's just a rational argument from one side of the debate.
If this is what he means, it would be true for organic farming without the biodynamic mumbo jumbo, as well. And it would be wrong. It may be the case that organic and biodynamic farming doesn't get as much production from the land as possible (though there are those who would contest that more knowledgeably than I can), but there really is no argument that either biodynamic or organic farming is less sustainable or does more damage to the land than farming using pesticides.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#175 Post by James Billy » May 8th, 2019, 4:06 am

As I said, that wasn't necessarily my opinion. I agree that chemical farming could produce large yields in the short term, but can cause long term problems.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#176 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 8th, 2019, 4:07 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 2:15 am
...but there really is no argument that either biodynamic or organic farming is less sustainable or does more damage to the land than farming using pesticides.
My thoughts as well, which is why I questioned Eric's statement, especially regarding the "bane on the environment" element.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#177 Post by Eric Ifune » May 8th, 2019, 3:58 pm

Bordeaux mixture. Copper sulfate. Adding heavy metals to the environment is never good. As bad as spraying lead paint around. It's the only allowed treatment for Oidium allowed by the Biodynamic certifiers. There are far more environmentally friendly antifungals which disintegrate in a few days, but they are not allowed.
I wrote my undergrad biology research paper on heavy metal toxicity in the environment.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#178 Post by Eric Ifune » May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Opened a 1983 Guigal Hermitage last night. All bacon and cherries. Definitely not over oaked.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#179 Post by John Morris » May 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm
Opened a 1983 Guigal Hermitage last night. All bacon and cherries. Definitely not over oaked.
I opened a 375ml of this a decade or so ago, which I assumed would be past its prime. It was glorious! And his Hermitage didn't have that great a reputation.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#180 Post by Marcus Dean » May 8th, 2019, 4:31 pm

We opened a 1985 Hermitage on Saturday night, it was really tasty and improved in the decanter for 4 hours, no lumber in sight

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#181 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 8th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Bordeaux mixture. Copper sulfate. Adding heavy metals to the environment is never good. As bad as spraying lead paint around. It's the only allowed treatment for Oidium allowed by the Biodynamic certifiers. There are far more environmentally friendly antifungals which disintegrate in a few days, but they are not allowed.
I wrote my undergrad biology research paper on heavy metal toxicity in the environment.
Thanks for confirming. It’s what I figured, and it’s consistent with the EU moving to reduce allowable copper treatments.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#182 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 8th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Bordeaux mixture. Copper sulfate. Adding heavy metals to the environment is never good. As bad as spraying lead paint around. It's the only allowed treatment for Oidium allowed by the Biodynamic certifiers. There are far more environmentally friendly antifungals which disintegrate in a few days, but they are not allowed.
I wrote my undergrad biology research paper on heavy metal toxicity in the environment.
What chemical imbalances in the soil does Bordeaux mixture specifically cause and how does it affect water tables? Is it known how it also affects animals (say bees and insects) and biodiversity?

Also I would think the effects are much different than heavy metals. (By that I do not mean “better”, just different.)

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#183 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 9th, 2019, 2:17 am

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Bordeaux mixture. Copper sulfate. Adding heavy metals to the environment is never good. As bad as spraying lead paint around. It's the only allowed treatment for Oidium allowed by the Biodynamic certifiers. There are far more environmentally friendly antifungals which disintegrate in a few days, but they are not allowed.
I wrote my undergrad biology research paper on heavy metal toxicity in the environment.
There is indeed considerable evidence that Glyphosate is a far safer spray than copper sulfate. But your antagonist here is hardly Biodynamic regulations but rather regulations for getting certified as organic. And, of course, currently the EU. There are a lot of good reasons to be contemptuous of biodynamic theory and practice. But this one is a far broader problem.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#184 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 9th, 2019, 11:57 am

John Morris wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 4:27 pm
Eric Ifune wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm
Opened a 1983 Guigal Hermitage last night. All bacon and cherries. Definitely not over oaked.
I opened a 375ml of this a decade or so ago, which I assumed would be past its prime. It was glorious! And his Hermitage didn't have that great a reputation.
I've had many really good 375ml bottles at 40+ years of age. They weren't going to get any better, but they drank really well.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#185 Post by A. So » May 9th, 2019, 12:24 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:36 pm
One of my favorite excerpts was from Louis Bromfield's book, Pleasant Valley. Bromfield was a Pulitzer Prize winning author, who like many, was an expatriate in France after WW1. When WW2 was breaking out, he moved back to Ohio, became a gentleman farmer, and was dedicated to permaculture. He wrote this about coming back to the US:

"I was aware too, quite suddenly, of what it was that attracted me to Europe, and most of all to France; it was the sense of continuity and permanence of small but eternal things, of the incredible resistance and resiliency of the small people. I had found there a continuity which had always been oddly lacking in American life, save in remote corners of the country like parts of New England and the South which were afflicted by decadence, where permanence and continuity of life existed through inertia and defeat. In the true sense, they were the least American of any of the parts of America. They had stood still while the endless pattern of change repeated itself elsewhere in factories, in automobiles, in radio, in the restlessness of the rich and the nomadic quality of the poor. The permanence of the continuity of France was not born of weariness and economic defeat, but was a living thing, anchored to the soil, to the very earth itself. Any French peasant, any French workingman with his little plot of ground and his modest home and wages, which by American standards were small, had more permanence, more solidity, more security, than the American workingman or white-collar worker received...sitting there it occurred to that the high standard of living in America was an illusion, based upon credit and installment plan, which threw a man and his family into the street and on public relief the moment his factory closed and he lost his job. It seemed to me that real continuity, real love of one's country, real permanence had to do not with mechanical inventions and high wage but with the earth a man's love of the soil upon which he lived."
Poverty porn
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#186 Post by Eric Ifune » May 9th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Copper is antimicrobial. That's why it's in high end athletic gear to kill off aroma causing bacteria. At high enough levels, it kills off the soil microbiome. It also accumulates with time. People talk of the soil being more sterile than the Sahara. With build up of copper, this will be the case. The EU is looking to ban copper. If this happens, biodynamic viticulture will be impossible in much of Europe and most of France. Unless the certifying agencies change the rules, which is probably what will happen. Can't lose all that income.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#187 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 10th, 2019, 4:23 am

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 3:27 pm
Copper is antimicrobial. That's why it's in high end athletic gear to kill off aroma causing bacteria. At high enough levels, it kills off the soil microbiome. It also accumulates with time. People talk of the soil being more sterile than the Sahara. With build up of copper, this will be the case. The EU is looking to ban copper. If this happens, biodynamic viticulture will be impossible in much of Europe and most of France. Unless the certifying agencies change the rules, which is probably what will happen. Can't lose all that income.
Once again, this is an issue about being certified organic (biodynamic, for the most part is organic plus extra added hooey). And neither organic nor biodynamic certification requires the use of copper sulfate. They merely allow it, because it is organic. If the EU disallows copper sulfate, it is unlikely in the extreme that the requirements for being organic or biodynamic will change to allow non-organic fungicides. It would make the designation organic meaningless in France. There are other organic fungicides besides copper sulfate. I understand them to be much less effective, but then copper sulfate is less effective than systemic, chemical anti-fungicides. Vignerons would simply have to choose whether to remain organic because of their commitment to the idea (or for the marketing advantages) or to switch to lutte raisonné or some other method.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#188 Post by Jay Miller » May 10th, 2019, 8:11 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 2:49 pm
While I'm glad David Koch is passionate about wine, I believe he is one of my least favorite humans on earth, much because of his greed and politics. His $22 million dollar wine auction makes me sick. In general, I want the world, including the wine world, to be more fair and egalitarian.
Just for the record, It was Bill Koch who had the wine auction and is into wine and active in combating wine fraud. He's been estranged from his two politically active brothers (David and Charles) for decades.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#189 Post by David Glasser » May 10th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 4:23 am
Once again, this is an issue about being certified organic (biodynamic, for the most part is organic plus extra added hooey). And neither organic nor biodynamic certification requires the use of copper sulfate. They merely allow it, because it is organic. If the EU disallows copper sulfate, it is unlikely in the extreme that the requirements for being organic or biodynamic will change to allow non-organic fungicides. It would make the designation organic meaningless in France. There are other organic fungicides besides copper sulfate. I understand them to be much less effective, but then copper sulfate is less effective than systemic, chemical anti-fungicides. Vignerons would simply have to choose whether to remain organic because of their commitment to the idea (or for the marketing advantages) or to switch to lutte raisonné or some other method.
What makes CuSO4 organic? It isn’t carbon based. It isn’t produced or consumed by living organisms. It’s poisonous.

I always thought it was allowed because it had been around forever and they needed something to fight off fungus.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#190 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 10th, 2019, 2:35 pm

David Glasser wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 4:23 am
Once again, this is an issue about being certified organic (biodynamic, for the most part is organic plus extra added hooey). And neither organic nor biodynamic certification requires the use of copper sulfate. They merely allow it, because it is organic. If the EU disallows copper sulfate, it is unlikely in the extreme that the requirements for being organic or biodynamic will change to allow non-organic fungicides. It would make the designation organic meaningless in France. There are other organic fungicides besides copper sulfate. I understand them to be much less effective, but then copper sulfate is less effective than systemic, chemical anti-fungicides. Vignerons would simply have to choose whether to remain organic because of their commitment to the idea (or for the marketing advantages) or to switch to lutte raisonné or some other method.
What makes CuSO4 organic? It isn’t carbon based. It isn’t produced or consumed by living organisms. It’s poisonous.

I always thought it was allowed because it had been around forever and they needed something to fight off fungus.
This is all true in terms of chemical nomenclature and actually what I was thinking, but clearly Jonathan is saying that copper sulfate is considered acceptable for “organic” viticultural practice, not that it is classified as organic chemically.

What is strange to me is how many proponents of “green” viticulture - “organic”, biodynamic, whatever - for some inexplicable reason accept Bordeaux mixture as consistent with their ideology. It’s not.

I am curious whether there has been any effort to find and clone or propagate through selecion massale vines that exhibit fungus resistance (via mutation). Or pushing it further, much more “green”-friendly to me would be to isolate the DNA mutation that provides fungus resistance and create GMO vines that insert multiple copies of the mutation into the DNA with appropriate promoters. Much more environmentally friendly than Bordeaux mixture.

GMO gets a bad rap. Not sure how it’s worse than putting nasty chemicals into the ground.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#191 Post by John Morris » May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 2:35 pm
I am curious whether there has been any effort to find and clone or propagate through selecion massale vines that exhibit fungus resistance (via mutation). Or pushing it further, much more “green”-friendly to me would be to isolate the DNA mutation that provides fungus resistance and create GMO vines that insert multiple copies of the mutation into the DNA with appropriate promoters. Much more environmentally friendly than Bordeaux mixture.
GMO vines would be a non-starter in Europe.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#192 Post by M.Kaplan » May 10th, 2019, 3:23 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 2:35 pm
I am curious whether there has been any effort to find and clone or propagate through selecion massale vines that exhibit fungus resistance (via mutation). Or pushing it further, much more “green”-friendly to me would be to isolate the DNA mutation that provides fungus resistance and create GMO vines that insert multiple copies of the mutation into the DNA with appropriate promoters. Much more environmentally friendly than Bordeaux mixture.
GMO vines would be a non-starter in Europe.
Wasn't grafting the very first genetic modification? Aren't all but a handful of vineyards in France genetically modified?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#193 Post by John Morris » May 10th, 2019, 3:48 pm

No, grafting doesn't affect the DNA of either the roots or the vines.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#194 Post by Eric Ifune » May 10th, 2019, 3:55 pm

Copper sulfate got grandfathered in, mainly because it's about the only thing that works short of nonorganic. Oidium is still a big problem. All other organic treatments barely make a dent. Organic vintners who eschew copper have lost entire crops.

Here's an article in "The World of Fine Wines"
http://www.worldoffinewine.com/news/the ... am-4704802

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#195 Post by David Glasser » May 10th, 2019, 4:03 pm

So Bordeaux mixture isn’t allowed because it’s organic, it’s "organic" because it’s allowed.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#196 Post by Eric Ifune » May 10th, 2019, 4:07 pm

So Bordeaux mixture isn’t allowed because it’s organic, it’s "organic" because it’s allowed.
Yes.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#197 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 10th, 2019, 5:22 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 2:35 pm
I am curious whether there has been any effort to find and clone or propagate through selecion massale vines that exhibit fungus resistance (via mutation). Or pushing it further, much more “green”-friendly to me would be to isolate the DNA mutation that provides fungus resistance and create GMO vines that insert multiple copies of the mutation into the DNA with appropriate promoters. Much more environmentally friendly than Bordeaux mixture.
GMO vines would be a non-starter in Europe.
Yes, I know.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#198 Post by M.Kaplan » May 10th, 2019, 5:48 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 3:48 pm
No, grafting doesn't affect the DNA of either the roots or the vines.
No?
www.newscientist.com/article/2079813-fa ... ennia/amp/
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#199 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 10th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 5:22 pm
John Morris wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 2:35 pm
I am curious whether there has been any effort to find and clone or propagate through selecion massale vines that exhibit fungus resistance (via mutation). Or pushing it further, much more “green”-friendly to me would be to isolate the DNA mutation that provides fungus resistance and create GMO vines that insert multiple copies of the mutation into the DNA with appropriate promoters. Much more environmentally friendly than Bordeaux mixture.
GMO vines would be a non-starter in Europe.
Yes, I know.
European protesters: “No Roundup! No copper! No GMOs!”

Winemakers: “Umm...no wine”

European protesters: “No roundup! No copp...wait, what?”
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#200 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 10th, 2019, 11:53 pm

So, in sum, copper sulfate is neither a consequence of biodynamic regulations nor of organic regulations but of what was perceived to be winemaking necessity. I agree with Jayson that GMO's could offer an environmentally friendly solution. But resistance to GMOs is the leftist version of science denial.

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