Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

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Mark Golodetz
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Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am

I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#2 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 1st, 2019, 9:47 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
Other than bottles from the best vintages from the '60's and 70's, LaLa's seem to be the same price they were 15 years ago.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#3 Post by Todd F r e n c h » May 1st, 2019, 9:47 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
The La Las, specifically? Excellent point - they were impossible to find, the most desired Rhones of the era...now nobody seems to care.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#4 Post by ybarselah » May 1st, 2019, 9:58 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
how about the entire appellation of CdP?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#5 Post by Josh Grossman » May 1st, 2019, 10:03 am

Let me put it as an analogy question:

Duboeuf is to Beaujolais as is _______ is to Rhone.

I think Guigal's main problem has nothing to do with Parker, but rather that they make such mass quantities of mediocre négociant wines--that it devalues the rest of their holdings.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#6 Post by R_Gilbane » May 1st, 2019, 10:33 am

K&L had some crazy prices on the La Las (Mouline I believe....sub $190 for 2013s) ......and they just sat there.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#7 Post by K John Joseph » May 1st, 2019, 11:08 am

ybarselah wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:58 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
how about the entire appellation of CdP?
Word. CdP seemed like it was in such a race to go big and unctuous to satisfy the Parker palate as he aged that it overshot consumer preferences by about 3 or 4 standard deviations of bigness. I'm hoping there is an aggressive style correction over the next decade because really spot on clean CDP can be absolutely lovely.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#8 Post by Victor Hong » May 1st, 2019, 11:10 am

Australia ooze-monsters seem also to have retreated.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#9 Post by Markus S » May 1st, 2019, 11:13 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
...Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market.
Guigal, with the exception of the Lala's, were very easy to find and reasonably priced in the 1980's and thru the 90's.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#10 Post by Vince T » May 1st, 2019, 11:57 am

K John Joseph wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 11:08 am
ybarselah wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:58 am
how about the entire appellation of CdP?
Word. CdP seemed like it was in such a race to go big and unctuous to satisfy the Parker palate as he aged that it overshot consumer preferences by about 3 or 4 standard deviations of bigness. I'm hoping there is an aggressive style correction over the next decade because really spot on clean CDP can be absolutely lovely.
Asimov reviewed 2016 CdPs a couple months back and commented that a style correction was under way:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/dini ... -2016.html
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#11 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 1st, 2019, 12:39 pm

The Guigal Cotes du Rhone Red has shown up in a couple of recent blind tastings. It did well. Quite drinkable, and overall good value.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#12 Post by jcoley3 » May 1st, 2019, 1:05 pm

ybarselah wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:58 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
how about the entire appellation of CdP?
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Me: (After two hours of hold music) Shoot. (Hangs up)
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#13 Post by jcoley3 » May 1st, 2019, 1:11 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:40 am
I have been watching Guigal, as I have a few older ones coming up at auction. Once the most expensive Rhone, prices seem very soft. I keep getting pricing from various European and US merchants, and it’s clear other Rhones have caught up and surpassed them. Remember in the old days how hard they were to find, and how that also drove up prices in the secondary market. Seems that when Parker went away, nobody is feeling the excitement.
One other issue is that release pricing shot through the roof right at the time Parker's opinions were becoming less fashionable. From 06 to 11 they almost doubled in release price. Looking now, the 06s are auctioning now for less than three-tier retail at the time.

I happen to think the wines are excellent, and actually do handle their now much-maligned long soujourn in oak if properly-aged, but more traditional Cote-Rotie draws far more excitement at the moment, and one can actually make money rather than lose it selling at auction.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#14 Post by Chris Seiber » May 1st, 2019, 2:01 pm

I wish this would happen to a wine I like more than these. I've had mature ones a few times at tastings, and they're fine, but none of them has ever made me feel like something I'd remotely go spend hundreds of dollars on. They've just never seemed special or distinctive in that kind of way.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#15 Post by John Morris » May 1st, 2019, 2:48 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 10:03 am
Let me put it as an analogy question:

Duboeuf is to Beaujolais as is _______ is to Rhone.

I think Guigal's main problem has nothing to do with Parker, but rather that they make such mass quantities of mediocre négociant wines--that it devalues the rest of their holdings.
I don't think that comparison is fair at all, except from the standpoint of volume. Their Cornas, Crozes and St. Joseph bottlings were never exciting, but they were not industrial swill. The Hermitage (mostly bought fruit, I believe) often turned out very well. And the based C-R Brune & Blonde was an excellent wine up through the 90s, when they started losing growers and introduced the Ch. d'Ampuis bottling for the best lots. The Cotes du Rhone, which is produced in enormous quantities, has been consistently good for the 30+ years I've been drinking it.

I think the La Las were just always overpriced. In the 90s and 00s many sat on retail shelves gathering dust for years even when Parker was a force in the market.

With Parker's departure, I think the market for Northern Rhone has fewer people driven solely by reviews. The people who follow the region are all buying Gonon and Allemand now. Allemand now sells for more than the La Las.
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 12:39 pm
The Guigal Cotes du Rhone Red has shown up in a couple of recent blind tastings. It did well. Quite drinkable, and overall good value.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#16 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 1st, 2019, 6:26 pm

A few thoughts. The la turque 1988 was the first wine I ever gave 100 points to. Intoxicating stuff; until I realized that the wines all seemed to taste the same. Over the years, they were easy to pick out blind, and we stopped letting people bring them to the annual OTT bash because we found them boring.

And yet they are beautifully made, plenty of flavor, too much oak of course, and a pretty massive finish. Lots of great elements, but not something I want to drink. Interesting how taste evolves.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#17 Post by Craig G » May 1st, 2019, 7:32 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 2:01 pm
I wish this would happen to a wine I like more than these. I've had mature ones a few times at tastings, and they're fine, but none of them has ever made me feel like something I'd remotely go spend hundreds of dollars on. They've just never seemed special or distinctive in that kind of way.
I’ve only had LaLas from the 90s and 00s, but in every case I would have preferred a Guigal Cotes du Rhône, and certainly a Guigal Côte Rotie B&B. In one case we did have an older B&B next to the LaLas and it was by far my favorite.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#18 Post by David Glasser » May 1st, 2019, 8:49 pm

My first Guigal LaLa was the 1988 La Turque. I fell in love. I still thoroughly enjoy the more recent versions, but more as cocktail wines, and that first experience hasn’t been replicated.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#19 Post by Greg Harter » May 1st, 2019, 8:54 pm

R_Gilbane wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 10:33 am
K&L had some crazy prices on the La Las (Mouline I believe....sub $190 for 2013s) ......and they just sat there.
How much of that is a problem with the number of states that they can no longer ship to?
I used to purchase a lot of wine from K&L. Now they cannot ship to us at all. Along with about 50% of the states or more.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#20 Post by Kevin Harvey » May 1st, 2019, 8:55 pm

Yes.
The La Las have never done well (against much less expensive wines) in our Syrah blind tastings unless someone has a real sweet tooth for oak. In fact they have usually come out in the bottom half of the lineup.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#21 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 2nd, 2019, 1:39 am

Vince T wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 11:57 am
K John Joseph wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 11:08 am
ybarselah wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 9:58 am
how about the entire appellation of CdP?
Word. CdP seemed like it was in such a race to go big and unctuous to satisfy the Parker palate as he aged that it overshot consumer preferences by about 3 or 4 standard deviations of bigness. I'm hoping there is an aggressive style correction over the next decade because really spot on clean CDP can be absolutely lovely.
Asimov reviewed 2016 CdPs a couple months back and commented that a style correction was under way:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/dini ... -2016.html
Asimov said the exact same thing in 2010. Both years produced wines with higher acidity and better structure than usual. Neither marked a change in winemaking, just a difference in years. They were also both decently sunny and warm years and I doubt the wines will bring back anybody who gave up CdP after the 90s. I like to read Asimov, and his heart is in the right place, but I don't find his palate and his knowledge always are.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#22 Post by R_Gilbane » May 2nd, 2019, 2:10 am

Greg Harter wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 8:54 pm
R_Gilbane wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 10:33 am
K&L had some crazy prices on the La Las (Mouline I believe....sub $190 for 2013s) ......and they just sat there.
How much of that is a problem with the number of states that they can no longer ship to?
I used to purchase a lot of wine from K&L. Now they cannot ship to us at all. Along with about 50% of the states or more.
K&L has plenty of reach even with shipping restrictions (and there are certainly ways around that if one is motivated). So I would guess the impact from shipping restrictions is limited....it’s (or was)a function of soft market demand.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#23 Post by Pat Martin » May 2nd, 2019, 5:44 am

Jeb Dunnuck declared at a wine tasting in 2012 that the greatest wine he ever had was a recent vintage of Guigal LaLa. I was intrigued and secured a few. Silly me, I should have known better. And as noted, these haven’t appreciated in price at all, so unloading them is a challenge without a big haircut.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#24 Post by patrick c albright » May 2nd, 2019, 5:51 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 10:03 am
Let me put it as an analogy question:

Duboeuf is to Beaujolais as is _______ is to Rhone.

I think Guigal's main problem has nothing to do with Parker, but rather that they make such mass quantities of mediocre négociant wines--that it devalues the rest of their holdings.
As noted, not a proper analogy.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#25 Post by Jay Miller » May 2nd, 2019, 6:48 am

I had a few in the past which didn't impress me but I admit to loving a recent 1986 La Turque.

anyone know if the style changed since then?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#26 Post by Brian Thorne » May 2nd, 2019, 6:53 am

I put in a lowball bid on a mixed case of ‘98 La La’s several months ago, and was shocked that I won. That was our wedding year, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the ‘98 La Landonne and ‘98 La Mouline on prior occasions, so I’m pretty stoked. [cheers.gif]

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#27 Post by Jeb Dunnuck » May 2nd, 2019, 7:05 am

Pat Martin wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:44 am
Jeb Dunnuck declared at a wine tasting in 2012 that the greatest wine he ever had was a recent vintage of Guigal LaLa. I was intrigued and secured a few. Silly me, I should have known better. And as noted, these haven’t appreciated in price at all, so unloading them is a challenge without a big haircut.
Jesus, Pat... yes, silly you. We've tasted together and you know we disagree on just about everything. The idea you'd find pleasure in a young la Mouline is laughable, so please, don't blame me. And if you want to offload those lala, let me know :)

A mature vintage of Guigal's La Mouline is unquestionably on my desert island list.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#28 Post by Claus Jeppesen » May 2nd, 2019, 7:32 am

Brian Thorne wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 6:53 am
I put in a lowball bid on a mixed case of ‘98 La La’s several months ago, and was shocked that I won. That was our wedding year, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the ‘98 La Landonne and ‘98 La Mouline on prior occasions, so I’m pretty stoked. [cheers.gif]
IMO the 3 98 LaLas are better than the 99
Så congratulations [cheers.gif]
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#29 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 2nd, 2019, 7:47 am

Confession: the LaLa wines are among my guilty pleasures.

I will now burn my AFWE card.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#30 Post by Ramon C » May 2nd, 2019, 7:58 am

For what it's worth, if their high-to-highest-end wines wind down due to lack of interest, it will appear that their Cotes du Rhone should be able to carry them through, given that these are available and are being pushed at every supermarket, corner and mom-n-pop wine/liquor stores that I come upon here in the northeast, especially here in NYC.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#31 Post by Tom Reddick » May 2nd, 2019, 8:40 am

I think Guigal is a casualty of Guigal. Ray and Brad a few years back very generously shared a handful of LaLa bottles from the glory era which were absolutely stunning.

More recent vintages, including a couple of 99 LaLas this past fall, are very big and pretty and polished- but show little inclination toward developing the breadth and subtlety of nuance from the early 70s examples I have tried.

The newer ones do grab your attention, but they are not truly interesting. Anna Nicole Smith was a strikingly and powerfully beautiful woman- but not someone to approach and ask about the latest news in the Wall Street Journal.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#32 Post by Josh Grossman » May 2nd, 2019, 8:49 am

patrick c albright wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:51 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 10:03 am
Let me put it as an analogy question:

Duboeuf is to Beaujolais as is _______ is to Rhone.

I think Guigal's main problem has nothing to do with Parker, but rather that they make such mass quantities of mediocre négociant wines--that it devalues the rest of their holdings.
As noted, not a proper analogy.
When there are things like Kiona Syrah Red Mountain for the same price as Guigal's base bottling, I tempted to think anyone who finds any Guigal wine a good value, is just a Francophile and doesn't actually have any taste. It's not plonk but if it were a Bourgogne, would you buy the grand crus?

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#33 Post by Gerhard P. » May 2nd, 2019, 10:18 am

Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 7:05 am
Pat Martin wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:44 am
Jeb Dunnuck declared at a wine tasting in 2012 that the greatest wine he ever had was a recent vintage of Guigal LaLa. I was intrigued and secured a few. Silly me, I should have known better. And as noted, these haven’t appreciated in price at all, so unloading them is a challenge without a big haircut.
Jesus, Pat... yes, silly you. We've tasted together and you know we disagree on just about everything. The idea you'd find pleasure in a young la Mouline is laughable, so please, don't blame me. And if you want to offload those lala, let me know :)

A mature vintage of Guigal's La Mouline is unquestionably on my desert island list.
The 3 LaLa´s are usually among the very best Cote-Roties you can get ... not in all vintages, but in most.
Sure, if you don´t like oak-influenced Rhones they might not be for you, but the quality of terroir and winemaking is no doubt there.

But there are some competitors, like Ogier, Rostaing, Jamet ... and a few others, but hard to find such a consistency elsewhere.
(not talking about the crazy priced Gentaz-Dervieux).

Guigal´s negociant wines like the regular Cote-Rotie and the Cotes-du-Rhones are ... well, negociant bottlings - depending on what grapes are available ... and Chateau d´Ampuis is still an excellent CR ... (but I´d rather take Rostaing´s Cote blonde or La Landonne instead for the price)
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#34 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 2nd, 2019, 10:26 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:49 am
I tempted to think anyone who finds any Guigal wine a good value, is just a Francophile and doesn't actually have any taste.
Sounds like someone needs to be invited to a blind tasting.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#35 Post by Gerhard P. » May 2nd, 2019, 10:35 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:49 am
I tempted to think anyone who finds any Guigal wine a good value, is just a Francophile and doesn't actually have any taste.
Josh,
I tempted to think anyone who denies that Guigal produced and produces outstanding wines doesn't actually have any taste!
One may not like them - but to state it´s no good wine is ... kind of childish.

I admit one has not to buy the regular CR-bottling or the general CdRhone ... there are better values ... but they are (usually) good wines nevertheless.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#36 Post by Greg K » May 2nd, 2019, 10:40 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:18 am
The 3 LaLa´s are usually among the very best Cote-Roties you can get ... not in all vintages, but in most.
Sure, if you don´t like oak-influenced Rhones they might not be for you, but the quality of terroir and winemaking is no doubt there.
These two statements are contradictory. It's hard to me to tell the quality of Guigal's winemaking or even the terroir when it's hidden by all that oak.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#37 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 2nd, 2019, 10:57 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:49 am
I tempted to think anyone who finds any Guigal wine a good value, is just a Francophile and doesn't actually have any taste.
Josh,
I tempted to think anyone who denies that Guigal produced and produces outstanding wines doesn't actually have any taste!
One may not like them - but to state it´s no good wine is ... kind of childish.

I admit one has not to buy the regular CR-bottling or the general CdRhone ... there are better values ... but they are (usually) good wines nevertheless.
If you don't like a wine, for you it's not a wine of high quality. Wine isn't cognitive but a matter of tasting, and thus a matter of taste, the actual kind and not the cultural metaphor.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#38 Post by John S » May 2nd, 2019, 11:05 am

This seems like a nice outcome for buyers. Yet a few still seem to complain. Most people (I include myself) who have had a decent slug of various La Las agree they can be and often are great. They may not be "typical" and certainly not cheap but really are IMHO great wines. Some of my favorite wines ever are some older La Moulines.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#39 Post by GregT » May 2nd, 2019, 11:14 am

Asimov reviewed 2016 CdPs a couple months back and commented that a style correction was under way:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/dini ... -2016.html
That is just an Asimov trope. Every year or so he picks an area and notes that there is a "paradigm shift" or return to tradition or some such nonsense. He does it regarding CA Chardonnay every so often, like there was once a perfect type of Chardonnay made in CA and then it became big and oaky and now (whenever 'now' happens to be) it's moving back. So of course he'd say that regarding the Rhone.

Two things to remember - 1. People will make what sells. 2. You can never go back in time.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#40 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 2nd, 2019, 11:16 am

Greg K wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:40 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:18 am
The 3 LaLa´s are usually among the very best Cote-Roties you can get ... not in all vintages, but in most.
Sure, if you don´t like oak-influenced Rhones they might not be for you, but the quality of terroir and winemaking is no doubt there.
These two statements are contradictory. It's hard to me to tell the quality of Guigal's winemaking or even the terroir when it's hidden by all that oak.
Older vintages of La Mouline and Brune et Blonde didn't see new oak. The earliest vintages, and in my opinion the greatest vintages of La Mouline were aged in foudres (assuming my memory is correct).
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#41 Post by R_Gilbane » May 2nd, 2019, 11:20 am

GregT wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:14 am
Two things to remember - 1. MOST People will make what sells. 2. You can ABSOLUTELY go back in time.

FIFY
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#42 Post by C. Mc Cart » May 2nd, 2019, 11:23 am

Per the OP, you could say the same of Chapoutier these days, non?
While never a fan of Guigal, trends & tastes ebb & flow.

Maybe they should make a pet nat or pay some hipster somm's to 'insta' some concrete eggs.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#43 Post by Greg K » May 2nd, 2019, 11:29 am

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:16 am
Greg K wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:40 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:18 am
The 3 LaLa´s are usually among the very best Cote-Roties you can get ... not in all vintages, but in most.
Sure, if you don´t like oak-influenced Rhones they might not be for you, but the quality of terroir and winemaking is no doubt there.
These two statements are contradictory. It's hard to me to tell the quality of Guigal's winemaking or even the terroir when it's hidden by all that oak.
Older vintages of La Mouline and Brune et Blonde didn't see new oak. The earliest vintages, and in my opinion the greatest vintages of La Mouline were aged in foudres (assuming my memory is correct).
I think we've had this discussion before, and I believe you're talking about LaLas from the 70s. I'm happy to assume those were great wines, but I've not had any so can't comment. The Guigal I've had is very oaky, and if you don't like oak in your wine (which I do not), they're neither good wines nor can you tell the terroir or the winemaking.
If you'd like to share a 70s LaLa, however, I'd me more than happy to try it. neener
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#44 Post by Greg K » May 2nd, 2019, 11:31 am

C. Mc Cart wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:23 am
Per the OP, you could say the same of Chapoutier these days, non?
I almost posted earlier that at least Guigal isn't Chapoutier [snort.gif]

Guigal wines are definitely not my style, whereas I think Chapoutier wines are just not good.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#45 Post by Gerhard P. » May 2nd, 2019, 11:34 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:57 am

If you don't like a wine, for you it's not a wine of high quality. Wine isn't cognitive but a matter of tasting, and thus a matter of taste, the actual kind and not the cultural metaphor.
Not true.
I can acknowledge the high quality of a wine - and still not like to drink it - it´s a question of objectivity, an ability a professional taster should have (I´m no professionalist, but I try to taste as objectively as possible for me).

Ok, not everybody has this attitude ... "I like it, so it´s fine, I don´t like it, so it´s rubbish ..." - that´s ok as far as personal opinions go, but when you post opinions in public your aspirations should be higher (imho).

I do not love Barolo/Barbaresco - never bought a bottle over the last 20 years, but I get to taste quite a lot in our monthy tasting round - and it would be foolish to deny the high quality of (just for instance) a G.Conterno, Altare, Clerico, Voerzio and many others.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#46 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » May 2nd, 2019, 11:40 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:57 am

If you don't like a wine, for you it's not a wine of high quality. Wine isn't cognitive but a matter of tasting, and thus a matter of taste, the actual kind and not the cultural metaphor.
Sorry for the thread drift, but I do not believe the above is true. There are standards of quality in wine, regardless of whether an individual taster likes a given wine or not - standards most of us come to recognize the more experience we have. It's often very difficult to separate out the objective from the subjective, no question, and there is a lot of room for argument on what exactly constitutes these standards, but they are absolutely there. High production, industrial wine with little to no care taken in the vineyards, and chemicals added is never high quality, even if you like it. The same can be said of food - no matter how much you like McDonald's, the kitchen is not turning out superb food. While I completely agree that preference is a huge and important part of judging wine, and ultimately what you chose to drink should be heavily dictated by what you like, what one likes personally does not constitute quality, nor vice versa. It is a fundamental aspect of connoisseurship, not to mention criticism, to develop understanding of both and strive to recognize where they overlap and where they don't.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#47 Post by Josh Grossman » May 2nd, 2019, 11:50 am

Greg K wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:31 am
C. Mc Cart wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:23 am
Per the OP, you could say the same of Chapoutier these days, non?
I almost posted earlier that at least Guigal isn't Chapoutier [snort.gif]

Guigal wines are definitely not my style, whereas I think Chapoutier wines are just not good.
Where is the upvote?

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#48 Post by Josh Grossman » May 2nd, 2019, 12:28 pm

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:40 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 10:57 am

If you don't like a wine, for you it's not a wine of high quality. Wine isn't cognitive but a matter of tasting, and thus a matter of taste, the actual kind and not the cultural metaphor.
Sorry for the thread drift, but I do not believe the above is true. There are standards of quality in wine, regardless of whether an individual taster likes a given wine or not - standards most of us come to recognize the more experience we have. It's often very difficult to separate out the objective from the subjective, no question, and there is a lot of room for argument on what exactly constitutes these standards, but they are absolutely there. High production, industrial wine with little to no care taken in the vineyards, and chemicals added is never high quality, even if you like it. The same can be said of food - no matter how much you like McDonald's, the kitchen is not turning out superb food. While I completely agree that preference is a huge and important part of judging wine, and ultimately what you chose to drink should be heavily dictated by what you like, what one likes personally does not constitute quality, nor vice versa. It is a fundamental aspect of connoisseurship, not to mention criticism, to develop understanding of both and strive to recognize where they overlap and where they don't.
Guigal makes 4,000,000 bottles of their CdR every year--and that is just one of their many bottlings. If you like 42 months of new oak from someone who makes millions of cases a year, by all means, give your money to Guigal. Just like McDonald's though, please don't think that they couldn't have 'billions served' on their sign. I am biased--but at some point, wine switches from being artisan to industrial, passion to commerce. Guigal and Chapoutier are the industrial négociants of the Rhone. I do my best not to support industrial wineries no matter how much lipstick they put on the pig: https://wineberserkers.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=159758

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#49 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 2nd, 2019, 12:30 pm

You think the Cotes du Rhone is getting 42 months of new oak?
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#50 Post by C. Mc Cart » May 2nd, 2019, 12:30 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:31 am
C. Mc Cart wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:23 am
Per the OP, you could say the same of Chapoutier these days, non?
I almost posted earlier that at least Guigal isn't Chapoutier [snort.gif]

Guigal wines are definitely not my style, whereas I think Chapoutier wines are just not good.
I don't taste enough of them to comment on current quality.
Regardless of their style, I think Chapoutier along with Penfolds must be the most impressive wine producers globally over the past 2 or 3 decades. Large holdings across multiple regions and top to bottom make good wine including some at the very top of the chain.

I've only bought minor amounts of any Chapoutier wines over the last 10 years but without doubt, some of the very best wines I've ever had were the various Chapoutier Hermitage(s) and C.R.'s from the past 4 decades. Some were/are legendary wines which turned me onto the region.
Sorry for the drift.
Chris

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