On another thread, a number of people have said that they don’t consider the first growths to be their favorite (or even the best) Bordeauxs.
I guess I have a couple of questions about this.
There are several wines that are selling for prices about comparable to or higher than first growth prices - the traditional standards are Petrus, Ausone and Cheval Blanc. Are these the ones you are thinking about as your favorite (or even the best) Bordeaux or something else. For me, while I did not include these three in the rankings of first growths because of a bit of apple and oranges, I consider these (and Mission Haut Brion) to be first growths in all but name and stating these wines as one’s favorite (or even best) Bordeauxs really isn’t IMHO breaking new ground.
There are a number of newerish Bordeaux (the oldest of these being le Pin) that sell for the same or more money as first growth Bordeaux? Are these the ones on your list.
Or are you talking about Medocs (or more traditional wines from other regions) that you think are better than the first growths that sell at a substantial discount to the first growths.
In other words, what are the wines you think are better (consistently) than the first growths?
Of Bdx, I’ve been buying (and drinking - I don’t buy wines to age) more Pomerol than anything the past, say, 3-5 years. I go through phases during which I switch from appellation to appellation - for no real reason other than current palate preference.
As regards St-Emilion, I only really go for Cheval Blanc and Ausone these days, though I rarely buy them - especially Ausone. No real reason either except that I’m reluctant to pay current prices (they were never cheap; but, these days, unless a good deal or special occasion comes along, I normally “make do” with La Fleur-Pétrus, La Conseillante, VCC, etc.). I did go through a St-Emilion phase in around 2005/2006; but it didn’t last very long.
I do buy Lafleur every once in a while; and, when a good deal comes around (rare as that may be), Pétrus. Le Pin, I’ve had a few times; but never my bottles (all from friends). It’s nice enough; but I don’t feel it’s worth its price. Rarefied as it is, I think Pétrus merits its price.
I really love Pichon Baron and Leoville Barton. I generally prefer them over the delicious but unaffordable wines. OK, I prefer Petrus to both, but there’s no point in liking Petrus.
Baron and Barton were wines that made early impressions on me, and my preferences have stuck.
When I think First Growth I think of the Five Medocs plus Cheval, Ausone and Petrus. On paper, Pavie and Angelus should be included, but neither are even close.
Someone suggested Le Pin; perhaps it’s my antipathy to modern style wines, but certainly not on my radar either.
So what is left; Lafleur certainly, and VCC from the Right Bank, La Mission from Pessac. Medoc becomes even more taste driven. I will happily place Ducru and Palmer there, with Pichon Lalande and Montrose strong contenders. Las Cases would be on most people’s list, but I have never warmed to it. Polished austerity for me. The exception is the 1996, the playboy in a room full of bishops.
Howard did ask (consistently) better. As much as I love VCC, e.g., I could never say it’s consistently better than Cheval Blanc or Petrus, not that I drink Petrus very often and Cheval is becoming more infrequent.
Same goes with Ducru. I think other than the blip with the cellar prob in 80s, it’s been very consistent for decades (and longer than I’ve been alive) but not “better” than Latour or HB. Even if undoubtedly it’s my favorite St-J.
Personally, I would add Gruaud Larose somewhere near the top of the list, certainly pre-1990 or so (which is the time-period that I buy wine from, almost exclusively). I think that, in terms of consistency (and I’m first and foremost a Left Bank guy), Ducru and Palmer, as well as Gruaud Larose, come above Lafite and Margaux (the latter two were up and down for a lot of the 20th century.) I also personally prefer Ducru and Gruaud Larose to Latour (in most vintages), just based on style. So, to me, if I was given any bottle of left bank Bordeaux from a completely random vintage from the 20th century, purely for drinking pleasure, my order of preference would be:
Haut Brion
Mouton
Gruaud Larose
Palmer
Ducru Beaucaillou
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Pichon Lalande
Leoville Barton
On the Right bank, in terms of long term consistency, it’s Lafleur and Cheval Blanc all the way - then Trotanoy and VCC, followed by Ausone, Petrus, Figeac, and (Clos) L’Eglise Clinet (though they can of course all be better wines than the former four in some vintages). Though Petrus and Ausone upped their game in the 70s/90s, I’ve never been completely convinced by any bottle from either producer pre-1975 (apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26 served next to it - I’ve only ever tasted them once). Certainly nothing that lives up to their reputation - admittedly it’s a limited field of experience (and maybe I’ve just been unlucky) but that’s the case nonetheless.
Pontet Canet, Pichon Baron, Lynch Bages, Grand Puy Lacoste, La Croix St. Georges, Saint Pierre, Les Carmes & La Mission Haut Brion, Haut Bailly, Labergorce, and a few others I am sure I am forgetting.
Probably lots of wines out there I’d like, but I have more experience tasting these, La Miss has been out of my price point for a while though
[quote=“Eric Egan” post_id=2723296 time=1556576966 (apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26 served next to it). Certainly nothing that lives up to their reputation - admittedly it’s a limited field of experience (and maybe I’ve just been unlucky) but that’s the case nonetheless.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, please let me introduce you to Francois 11
Not sure about “better” than the firsts as a group, but three of the four Bordeaux I most admire AND personally enjoy are not first growths, and in certain respects outperform some of the firsts. Those three are,
Lafleur
Magdelaine
Montrose
(The first growth that rounds out my list of 4 is Lafite-Rothschild.)
Did tours and tastings last week at Palmer and Ducru. Lots of fun, great wine. Got to taste the futures (2018s) at Ducru, along with some vintage wines. Both places are beautiful with excellent wines.
I did not give my views, but my favorite non-first growth Medocs are Leoville las Cases, Ducru, Montrose and Palmer. I don’t drink that much Pomerol or St. Emilion to comment generally. I find Pomerol to be really expensive and too many St. Emilions are too modern for me.
Most of the wines being mentioned are above my normal pay grade. And I spend a lot on wine. I have tried all the firsts at one time or another out of curiosity only, and as such cannot comment too much. But I tend to focus on where I think I meet my personal view of value. Which is the super seconds and the like. Of them, I would say Montrose, Lynch Bages, L. Barton, the Pichons and Ducru, but again, these can get pricey. Branaire, Domaine du Chevalier, Calon Segur tend to be consistently delicious, I think and do not break the bank. More recently, based on tastings, Brane Cantenac, Larcis Ducasse from the right bank, and other things float in and out. Heck, Canon in 2015 for example, but based on reputation, not having opened it yet.
