Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

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Howard Cooper
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Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#1 Post by Howard Cooper » April 29th, 2019, 9:56 am

On another thread, a number of people have said that they don't consider the first growths to be their favorite (or even the best) Bordeauxs.

I guess I have a couple of questions about this.

1. There are several wines that are selling for prices about comparable to or higher than first growth prices - the traditional standards are Petrus, Ausone and Cheval Blanc. Are these the ones you are thinking about as your favorite (or even the best) Bordeaux or something else. For me, while I did not include these three in the rankings of first growths because of a bit of apple and oranges, I consider these (and Mission Haut Brion) to be first growths in all but name and stating these wines as one's favorite (or even best) Bordeauxs really isn't IMHO breaking new ground.

2. There are a number of newerish Bordeaux (the oldest of these being le Pin) that sell for the same or more money as first growth Bordeaux? Are these the ones on your list.

3. Or are you talking about Medocs (or more traditional wines from other regions) that you think are better than the first growths that sell at a substantial discount to the first growths.

In other words, what are the wines you think are better (consistently) than the first growths?
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#2 Post by Russell Faulkner » April 29th, 2019, 10:08 am

I don’t know about better. But I prefer Lafleur to the Medoc first growth for sure.

I own 4-5x as much Lafleur than 1st growths combined.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#3 Post by LMD Ermitaño » April 29th, 2019, 10:49 am

Of Bdx, I’ve been buying (and drinking - I don’t buy wines to age) more Pomerol than anything the past, say, 3-5 years. I go through phases during which I switch from appellation to appellation - for no real reason other than current palate preference.

As regards St-Emilion, I only really go for Cheval Blanc and Ausone these days, though I rarely buy them - especially Ausone. No real reason either except that I’m reluctant to pay current prices (they were never cheap; but, these days, unless a good deal or special occasion comes along, I normally “make do” with La Fleur-Pétrus, La Conseillante, VCC, etc.). I did go through a St-Emilion phase in around 2005/2006; but it didn’t last very long.

I do buy Lafleur every once in a while; and, when a good deal comes around (rare as that may be), Pétrus. Le Pin, I’ve had a few times; but never my bottles (all from friends). It’s nice enough; but I don’t feel it’s worth its price. Rarefied as it is, I think Pétrus merits its price.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#4 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » April 29th, 2019, 12:22 pm

I really love Pichon Baron and Leoville Barton. I generally prefer them over the delicious but unaffordable wines. OK, I prefer Petrus to both, but there's no point in liking Petrus.

Baron and Barton were wines that made early impressions on me, and my preferences have stuck.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#5 Post by Steen T Olsen » April 29th, 2019, 12:23 pm

[wow.gif] [wow.gif] Favorite non-first growth Bordeaux? Now, let me see…
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#6 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 29th, 2019, 12:50 pm

When I think First Growth I think of the Five Medocs plus Cheval, Ausone and Petrus. On paper, Pavie and Angelus should be included, but neither are even close.

Someone suggested Le Pin; perhaps it’s my antipathy to modern style wines, but certainly not on my radar either.

So what is left; Lafleur certainly, and VCC from the Right Bank, La Mission from Pessac. Medoc becomes even more taste driven. I will happily place Ducru and Palmer there, with Pichon Lalande and Montrose strong contenders. Las Cases would be on most people’s list, but I have never warmed to it. Polished austerity for me. The exception is the 1996, the playboy in a room full of bishops.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#7 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 29th, 2019, 1:17 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 12:50 pm
When I think First Growth I think of the Five Medocs plus Cheval, Ausone and Petrus. On paper, Pavie and Angelus should be included, but neither are even close.

Someone suggested Le Pin; perhaps it’s my antipathy to modern style wines, but certainly not on my radar either.

So what is left; Lafleur certainly, and VCC from the Right Bank, La Mission from Pessac. Medoc becomes even more taste driven. I will happily place Ducru and Palmer there, with Pichon Lalande and Montrose strong contenders. Las Cases would be on most people’s list, but I have never warmed to it. Polished austerity for me. The exception is the 1996, the playboy in a room full of bishops.
Howard did ask (consistently) better. As much as I love VCC, e.g., I could never say it’s consistently better than Cheval Blanc or Petrus, not that I drink Petrus very often and Cheval is becoming more infrequent.

Same goes with Ducru. I think other than the blip with the cellar prob in 80s, it’s been very consistent for decades (and longer than I’ve been alive) but not “better” than Latour or HB. Even if undoubtedly it’s my favorite St-J.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#8 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 29th, 2019, 2:22 pm

True.
Given the above, none.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#9 Post by Eric Egan » April 29th, 2019, 3:29 pm

Personally, I would add Gruaud Larose somewhere near the top of the list, certainly pre-1990 or so (which is the time-period that I buy wine from, almost exclusively). I think that, in terms of consistency (and I'm first and foremost a Left Bank guy), Ducru and Palmer, as well as Gruaud Larose, come above Lafite and Margaux (the latter two were up and down for a lot of the 20th century.) I also personally prefer Ducru and Gruaud Larose to Latour (in most vintages), just based on style. So, to me, if I was given any bottle of left bank Bordeaux from a completely random vintage from the 20th century, purely for drinking pleasure, my order of preference would be:

1. Haut Brion
2. Mouton
3. Gruaud Larose
4. Palmer
5. Ducru Beaucaillou
6. Lafite
7. Latour
8. Margaux
9. Pichon Lalande
10. Leoville Barton

On the Right bank, in terms of long term consistency, it's Lafleur and Cheval Blanc all the way - then Trotanoy and VCC, followed by Ausone, Petrus, Figeac, and (Clos) L'Eglise Clinet (though they can of course all be better wines than the former four in some vintages). Though Petrus and Ausone upped their game in the 70s/90s, I've never been completely convinced by any bottle from either producer pre-1975 (apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26 served next to it - I've only ever tasted them once). Certainly nothing that lives up to their reputation - admittedly it's a limited field of experience (and maybe I've just been unlucky) but that's the case nonetheless.
Last edited by Eric Egan on April 30th, 2019, 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#10 Post by Kris Patten » April 29th, 2019, 7:03 pm

Pontet Canet, Pichon Baron, Lynch Bages, Grand Puy Lacoste, La Croix St. Georges, Saint Pierre, Les Carmes & La Mission Haut Brion, Haut Bailly, Labergorce, and a few others I am sure I am forgetting.

Probably lots of wines out there I'd like, but I have more experience tasting these, La Miss has been out of my price point for a while though
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#11 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 29th, 2019, 7:13 pm

[quote="Eric Egan" post_id=2723296 time=1556576966 (apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26 served next to it). Certainly nothing that lives up to their reputation - admittedly it's a limited field of experience (and maybe I've just been unlucky) but that's the case nonetheless.
[/quote]

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#12 Post by Mark Y » April 29th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Eric Egan wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 3:29 pm
apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26
Isn’t the 20s the golden age of bdx? Stretch of great vintages from 26, 27, 28 all vintage of the century!

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#13 Post by Pat Martin » April 29th, 2019, 8:00 pm

From 1982-1990, Lynch Bages and Pichon Lalande can give the First Growths a solid run for their money.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#14 Post by Tom Reddick » April 29th, 2019, 8:08 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 9:56 am
In other words, what are the wines you think are better (consistently) than the first growths?
Not sure about "better" than the firsts as a group, but three of the four Bordeaux I most admire AND personally enjoy are not first growths, and in certain respects outperform some of the firsts. Those three are,

Lafleur
Magdelaine
Montrose

(The first growth that rounds out my list of 4 is Lafite-Rothschild.)
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#15 Post by Eric Egan » April 30th, 2019, 1:21 am

Duplicate!
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#16 Post by M. Taylor » April 30th, 2019, 2:23 am

Eric Egan wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 3:29 pm
Personally, I would add Gruaud Larose somewhere near the top of the list, certainly pre-1990 or so (which is the time-period that I buy wine from, almost exclusively). I think that, in terms of consistency (and I'm first and foremost a Left Bank guy), Ducru and Palmer, as well as Gruaud Larose, come above Lafite and Margaux (the latter two were up and down for a lot of the 20th century.) I also personally prefer Ducru and Gruaud Larose to Latour (in most vintages), just based on style. So, to me, if I was given any bottle of left bank Bordeaux from a completely random vintage from the 20th century, purely for drinking pleasure, my order of preference would be:

1. Haut Brion
2. Mouton
3. Gruaud Larose
4. Palmer
5. Ducru Beaucaillou
6. Lafite
7. Latour
8. Margaux
9. Pichon Lalande
10. Leoville Barton

On the Right bank, in terms of long term consistency, it's Lafleur and Cheval Blanc all the way - then Trotanoy and VCC, followed by Ausone, Petrus, Figeac, and (Clos) L'Eglise Clinet (though they can of course all be better wines than the former four in some vintages). Though Petrus and Ausone upped their game in the 70s/90s, I've never been completely convinced by any bottle from either producer pre-1975 (apart from Ausone '26 and '34 which were stunning, though the former was upstaged by a sublime VCC '26 served next to it - I've only ever tasted them once). Certainly nothing that lives up to their reputation - admittedly it's a limited field of experience (and maybe I've just been unlucky) but that's the case nonetheless.

Did tours and tastings last week at Palmer and Ducru. Lots of fun, great wine. Got to taste the futures (2018s) at Ducru, along with some vintage wines. Both places are beautiful with excellent wines.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#17 Post by Howard Cooper » April 30th, 2019, 4:17 am

I did not give my views, but my favorite non-first growth Medocs are Leoville las Cases, Ducru, Montrose and Palmer. I don't drink that much Pomerol or St. Emilion to comment generally. I find Pomerol to be really expensive and too many St. Emilions are too modern for me.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#18 Post by Jim F » April 30th, 2019, 4:55 am

Most of the wines being mentioned are above my normal pay grade. And I spend a lot on wine. I have tried all the firsts at one time or another out of curiosity only, and as such cannot comment too much. But I tend to focus on where I think I meet my personal view of value. Which is the super seconds and the like. Of them, I would say Montrose, Lynch Bages, L. Barton, the Pichons and Ducru, but again, these can get pricey. Branaire, Domaine du Chevalier, Calon Segur tend to be consistently delicious, I think and do not break the bank. More recently, based on tastings, Brane Cantenac, Larcis Ducasse from the right bank, and other things float in and out. Heck, Canon in 2015 for example, but based on reputation, not having opened it yet.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#19 Post by Gerhard P. » April 30th, 2019, 6:35 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 12:50 pm
When I think First Growth I think of the Five Medocs plus Cheval, Ausone and Petrus. On paper, Pavie and Angelus should be included, but neither are even close.

Someone suggested Le Pin; perhaps it’s my antipathy to modern style wines, but certainly not on my radar either.

So what is left; Lafleur certainly, and VCC from the Right Bank, La Mission from Pessac. Medoc becomes even more taste driven. I will happily place Ducru and Palmer there, with Pichon Lalande and Montrose strong contenders. Las Cases would be on most people’s list, but I have never warmed to it. Polished austerity for me. The exception is the 1996, the playboy in a room full of bishops.
Howard did ask (consistently) better. As much as I love VCC, e.g., I could never say it’s consistently better than Cheval Blanc or Petrus, not that I drink Petrus very often and Cheval is becoming more infrequent.

Same goes with Ducru. I think other than the blip with the cellar prob in 80s, it’s been very consistent for decades (and longer than I’ve been alive) but not “better” than Latour or HB. Even if undoubtedly it’s my favorite St-J.

Ausone, Cheval blanc (and Angelus, Pavie etc.) ARE classified 1st growths ... not in 1855 but in 1955 and 2012 resp.!
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#20 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 30th, 2019, 6:48 am

Hard to say any others are consistently better than the FGs, but some of my faves are on par on some years.

The biggest standout to me is Gruaurd Larose in the 1980s. Slayed it.

VCC
Leoville Barton
Montrose
Figeac (pre-2014)
Conseillante (pre-2014)
Pichon Lalande
Pichon Baron
La Mission Haut Brion
Trotanoy

And for the money, it’s a no-brainer to buy 2-3 of these per 1 FG.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#21 Post by Ian Dorin » April 30th, 2019, 6:50 am

Calon Segur in terms of classifieds.

VCC for non-classified. Angelus a close second.

Money no object- Ausone, Petrus and Lafleur
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#22 Post by Cody L » April 30th, 2019, 8:10 am

Some producers I've enjoyed recently and are usually good value

Right Bank - Angelus, Monbousquet, Pavie, Vieux Chateau Delicious (Certan)

Left Bank - Branaire (Duluc Ducru), Calon Segur, Brane Cantenac, Lascombes, Lynch Bages, Palmer, Pape Clement
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#23 Post by David Glasser » April 30th, 2019, 2:14 pm

I can’t name any that are consistently or even frequently better than the first growths, but my favorites are (in no particular order):

Left bank
La Mission Haut Brion
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Léoville Barton
Montrose
Gruaud Larose
Lynch Bages


Right bank
Vieux Chateau Certan
Canon
Conseillante
Petrus (very limited exposure, but wow)
Lafleur (also very limited exposure)

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#24 Post by lleichtman » April 30th, 2019, 2:18 pm

Leoville Las Cases, Ducru Beaucaillou, Sociando Mallet, Leoville Barton.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#25 Post by Howard Cooper » April 30th, 2019, 4:44 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:48 am
Hard to say any others are consistently better than the FGs, but some of my faves are on par on some years.

The biggest standout to me is Gruaurd Larose in the 1980s. Slayed it.

VCC
Leoville Barton
Montrose
Figeac (pre-2014)
Conseillante (pre-2014)
Pichon Lalande
Pichon Baron
La Mission Haut Brion
Trotanoy

And for the money, it’s a no-brainer to buy 2-3 of these per 1 FG.
Do you put Leoville Barton, and the Pichons above Ducru.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#26 Post by Howard Cooper » April 30th, 2019, 4:47 pm

David Glasser wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 2:14 pm
I can’t name any that are consistently or even frequently better than the first growths, but my favorites are (in no particular order):

Left bank
La Mission Haut Brion
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Léoville Barton
Montrose
Gruaud Larose
Lynch Bages


Right bank
Vieux Chateau Certan
Canon
Conseillante
Petrus (very limited exposure, but wow)
Lafleur (also very limited exposure)
Another person whose palate I respect leaving out Ducru. I have read in the past that people are split on Leoville las Cases, but is that also true for Ducru.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#27 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 30th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Ducru is DTM.

Way too many tainted bottles from the 1980s. I moved on. No regrets.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#28 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » April 30th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Does it make sense to hold a grudge 30 years later?
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#29 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 30th, 2019, 5:17 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:12 pm
Ducru is DTM.

Way too many tainted bottles from the 1980s. I moved on. No regrets.
Huge mistake.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#30 Post by David Glasser » April 30th, 2019, 5:23 pm

Ducru is not on my list for the very long time it takes to develop complexity. The systemic TCA problem is forgivable going forward, but I’m now too old to be investing in post-TCA Ducru. I do love aged bottles when they’re on, making those bottles a worthy testimonial to adding it.

LLC is also a "takes forever to really strut its stuff" issue, and it’s a bit stern for my palate (also why Latour is not in my top 3 firsts). It’s like the Dunn Howell Mountain of Bordeaux.

LLC and Ducru: it’s me, not you. I’m just not patient enough.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#31 Post by Derek P » April 30th, 2019, 5:58 pm

My favorites from early in my Bordeaux adventures (clearly have not ventured much past Left Bank)

Ducru Beaucaillou
Calon Segur
Gruaud Larose
Cos d' Estournel
Leoville Barton
Leoville Poyferre
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#32 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 30th, 2019, 6:11 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:17 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:12 pm
Ducru is DTM.

Way too many tainted bottles from the 1980s. I moved on. No regrets.
Huge mistake.
+1
Ducru has released recorked bottles from the 1980s which have been checked for taint. I have had both 1986 and 1989, both wonderful.

But the wine that convinced me Ducru was back was the 1996, one of the great wines of the vintage. In terms of cost, Ducru is at the lower end of super seconds, older wines hovering at $200.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#33 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 30th, 2019, 6:17 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:11 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:17 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:12 pm
Ducru is DTM.

Way too many tainted bottles from the 1980s. I moved on. No regrets.
Huge mistake.
+1
Ducru has released recorked bottles from the 1980s which have been checked for taint. I have had both 1986 and 1989, both wonderful.

But the wine that convinced me Ducru was back was the 1996, one of the great wines of the vintage. In terms of cost, Ducru is at the lower end of super seconds, older wines hovering at $200.
Love and respect you guys, but this comment is as silly, perhaps, as my so-called grudge. There is more quality Bordeaux than I can shake a stick at, and with the current pricing of Ducru, I really am not missing anything. Even at that $200 price for a 1996, wow, I can grab some other killer stuff that blows me away, like 2004 and 2001 VCC for even cheaper. Again, hard to say how anyone is missing anything but passing on one wine that caused you a lot of prior loss, it’s like asking me to like again a classic estate that went to Rolland.

Incidentally, I just remembered that I did grab some 2004 Ducru from a Chambers cellar sale. Have not tried it yet. I grabbed a lot of wine from that sale, and the pricing was great. So perhaps not totally DTM. But, it is my only bottle.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#34 Post by Howard Cooper » April 30th, 2019, 6:25 pm

A couple of years ago I was able to get 2001 and 2014 Ducru for a little over $100
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#35 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 30th, 2019, 6:28 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:25 pm
A couple of years ago I was able to get 2001 and 2014 Ducru for a little over $100
Just checked. I paid $99.99 this past October.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#36 Post by Kris Patten » April 30th, 2019, 6:34 pm

Would you be a buyer of 2016 Montrose at $134?
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#37 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:34 pm
Would you be a buyer of 2016 Montrose at $134?
I don’t know who “you” is, but were I under 45, I’d buy it all day long.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#38 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:17 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:11 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:17 pm


Huge mistake.
+1
Ducru has released recorked bottles from the 1980s which have been checked for taint. I have had both 1986 and 1989, both wonderful.

But the wine that convinced me Ducru was back was the 1996, one of the great wines of the vintage. In terms of cost, Ducru is at the lower end of super seconds, older wines hovering at $200.
Love and respect you guys, but this comment is as silly, perhaps, as my so-called grudge. There is more quality Bordeaux than I can shake a stick at, and with the current pricing of Ducru, I really am not missing anything. Even at that $200 price for a 1996, wow, I can grab some other killer stuff that blows me away, like 2004 and 2001 VCC for even cheaper. Again, hard to say how anyone is missing anything but passing on one wine that caused you a lot of prior loss, it’s like asking me to like again a classic estate that went to Rolland.

Incidentally, I just remembered that I did grab some 2004 Ducru from a Chambers cellar sale. Have not tried it yet. I grabbed a lot of wine from that sale, and the pricing was great. So perhaps not totally DTM. But, it is my only bottle.
The prices no doubt have gone up, but there was a long period of time where wines from before and after the cork-tainted period were reasonably priced. The 1966 and 1970 were excellent repeat players. (EDIT: they are still excellent.). The 1995 is killer as is 1996, and so called off or lesser vintages have been great like 2001 and 2004. So I’m just saying there was a lot to miss over the years if you were put off by the 80s blip and never returned.

Also this honest house admitted the problem, and as Mark mentioned, has been very diligent to rerelease only clean tested bottles from the taint period and to be very careful since.

I love Ducru. Think it is one of a kind. More complex and texturally interesting than Barton (which I also have huge respect for), and never spoofed like my other favorite dirt in St-J, Poyferre.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#39 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 30th, 2019, 6:39 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:17 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:11 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 5:17 pm


Huge mistake.
+1
Ducru has released recorked bottles from the 1980s which have been checked for taint. I have had both 1986 and 1989, both wonderful.

But the wine that convinced me Ducru was back was the 1996, one of the great wines of the vintage. In terms of cost, Ducru is at the lower end of super seconds, older wines hovering at $200.
Love and respect you guys, but this comment is as silly, perhaps, as my so-called grudge. There is more quality Bordeaux than I can shake a stick at, and with the current pricing of Ducru, I really am not missing anything. Even at that $200 price for a 1996, wow, I can grab some other killer stuff that blows me away, like 2004 and 2001 VCC for even cheaper. Again, hard to say how anyone is missing anything but passing on one wine that caused you a lot of prior loss, it’s like asking me to like again a classic estate that went to Rolland.

Incidentally, I just remembered that I did grab some 2004 Ducru from a Chambers cellar sale. Have not tried it yet. I grabbed a lot of wine from that sale, and the pricing was great. So perhaps not totally DTM. But, it is my only bottle.
I enjoy being loved and respected, but you still need to get to know Ducru. The idea of just drinking VCC every night is fun, but I would miss the really classic Cabernet that is Ducru. Besides, the pleasure of Bordeaux is its diversity, its ability to surprise, to show different expressions from its various muds.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#40 Post by Vince T » April 30th, 2019, 10:47 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm
Kris Patten wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:34 pm
Would you be a buyer of 2016 Montrose at $134?
I don’t know who “you” is, but were I under 45, I’d buy it all day long.
Ditto. I picked up 6 at $149 en primeur, and W-S shows most retailers now selling in the $190-200 range, so $134 at retail is a great deal. There seemed to be a lot of winners in St-Estephe in 2016 and I bought far more there (Cos, Montrose, Calon Segur, Ormes de Pez) than any other AOC.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#41 Post by Howard Cooper » May 1st, 2019, 4:13 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm


I love Ducru. Think it is one of a kind. More complex and texturally interesting than Barton (which I also have huge respect for), and never spoofed like my other favorite dirt in St-J, Poyferre.
Agree on all these points. As I said above, I think the best non-first growth wines from the over 50% Cabernet Sauvignon parts of Bordeaux are Ducru, Leoville las Cases, Palmer and la Mission Haut Brion.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#42 Post by PCLIN » May 1st, 2019, 5:15 am

VCC and LLC.
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#43 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 1st, 2019, 5:19 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 4:13 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm


I love Ducru. Think it is one of a kind. More complex and texturally interesting than Barton (which I also have huge respect for), and never spoofed like my other favorite dirt in St-J, Poyferre.
Agree on all these points. As I said above, I think the best non-first growth wines from the over 50% Cabernet Sauvignon parts of Bordeaux are Ducru, Leoville las Cases, Palmer and la Mission Haut Brion.
I’d still take Montrose, especially since La Mish is now a merlot. [wow.gif]

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#44 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 1st, 2019, 7:12 am

My local retailer must be reading! Just got an emailer offering 6 vintages of Ducru going back to 2010! lol.

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#45 Post by DanielP » May 1st, 2019, 7:15 am

Kris Patten wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:34 pm
Would you be a buyer of 2016 Montrose at $134?
Now where can I find that?
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#46 Post by Gerhard P. » May 1st, 2019, 2:39 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:36 pm
...
Also this honest house admitted the problem, and as Mark mentioned, has been very diligent to rerelease only clean tested bottles from the taint period and to be very careful since.
...
It would be interesting if "this honest house" will refund all the tainted bottles I´ve got the pleasure to taste vintages 1985-1990 ...

Once I had 3 guests from The Netherlands in my home - and we agreed to taste DB 1982-1990 ...
out of 7 bottles 3 were heavily tainted and one mildly ...
[head-bang.gif]

Agreed - wines after 1995 usually were fine ...
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#47 Post by Jim F » May 1st, 2019, 2:42 pm

Did I miss something here or do all of us basically adore the same < a dozen non-first bordeaux?
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#48 Post by G. Bienstock » May 1st, 2019, 3:51 pm

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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#49 Post by Yao C » May 1st, 2019, 6:00 pm

Pichon Lalande for me by a considerable margin. Then Lynch Bages and LMHB and VCC in no particular order

Ducru Beaucaillou has always been more a wine of the head than of the heart for me. I respect it, but it doesn't move me emotionally. Same for Gruaud Larose. I'm not rich (or old) enough to have had sufficient Cheval Blanc, Ausone or Petrus to form an opinion
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Re: Favorite non-first growth Bordeauxs?

#50 Post by Kris Patten » May 1st, 2019, 6:20 pm

DanielP wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 7:15 am
Kris Patten wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:34 pm
Would you be a buyer of 2016 Montrose at $134?
Now where can I find that?
Saw it at retail in Seattle.
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