How would you rank the five first growths
- Howard Cooper
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How would you rank the five first growths
For me, I would go:
Haut Brion
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Mouton
Interested in thoughts of others
Haut Brion
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Mouton
Interested in thoughts of others
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Haut Brion
Margaux
Lafite
Latour
Mouton
Margaux
Lafite
Latour
Mouton
- Howard Cooper
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Are you saying this for the era before Haut Brion bought la Mission, the era since or both?
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Same on first three. Mouton over Margaux. Mouton can make some explosively crazy delicious wines like in 86 and 82, but on average, below the top three.Howard Cooper wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 4:59 pmFor me, I would go:
Haut Brion
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Mouton
Interested in thoughts of others
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Based on what I’ve had (and not a huge sample size, especially on Lafite)
Latour
Margaux
Haut Brion
Lafite
Mouton
Latour
Margaux
Haut Brion
Lafite
Mouton
Rich Frankel
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Currently or historically?
I have had a lot of Lafite and Margaux from the eras when both were substandard.
I have had a lot of Lafite and Margaux from the eras when both were substandard.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
1: Haut Brion
The others are generally tied, although any of them can be the best of the five in a given year.
Caveat, the last first I bought and drank was 2003 Mouton and it was just a touch above meh.
The others are generally tied, although any of them can be the best of the five in a given year.
Caveat, the last first I bought and drank was 2003 Mouton and it was just a touch above meh.
So shines a good deed in a weary world!
Re: How would you rank the five first growths
1) Lafite
2) Haut Briton
3) Latour
4) Margaux
5) Mouton
With the caveat that my most limited experience with the 5 is HB.
2) Haut Briton
3) Latour
4) Margaux
5) Mouton
With the caveat that my most limited experience with the 5 is HB.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
And Mission Haut Brion is a first growth in my mind. But, I am going by official classification.
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Ranked based on what? Just personal preference for the way they taste? Probably
HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Mouton
You could probably more or less swap the middle three in any order on any given day.
HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Mouton
You could probably more or less swap the middle three in any order on any given day.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Margaux
Lafite
Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton
* Lafite & Latour virtually equal; and Mouton a distant 5th.
Lafite
Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton
* Lafite & Latour virtually equal; and Mouton a distant 5th.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Many others (I know you said official FGs)
Mouton
I just think mouton is overdue a downgrade.
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Many others (I know you said official FGs)
Mouton
I just think mouton is overdue a downgrade.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Lafite-Rothschild
Latour
Haut-Brion
Margaux
Mouton-Rothschild
Latour
Haut-Brion
Margaux
Mouton-Rothschild
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Latour
Haut-Brion
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton
Haut-Brion
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Latuor, period!
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Haut Brion
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
fwiw: just had Mouton 95 blind on Saturday, and while it was an excellent, even outstanding wine there was nothing screaming First Growth for me. Yes, enjoyable.
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
fwiw: just had Mouton 95 blind on Saturday, and while it was an excellent, even outstanding wine there was nothing screaming First Growth for me. Yes, enjoyable.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
ditto
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Agree that Mouton is my least favored first growth year to year. I did have one that changed my mind for a short while however.
Mouton killed it in 1959. I would take that one over all the others in that year. FWIW. Year to year I do like Howard's list.
Mouton killed it in 1959. I would take that one over all the others in that year. FWIW. Year to year I do like Howard's list.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I have not had the 1959 Mouton, but the 1959 Latour was one of the greatest Bordeauxs I have ever had.
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I have had a lot of Mouton that was utterly delicious. I guess I just like the style more than most.
Overall I could go:
Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton
Margaux
Lafite
Lafite is at the bottom for me due to the number of dismal wines I have had from the 1970s, as well as stylistic preferences.
Overall I could go:
Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton
Margaux
Lafite
Lafite is at the bottom for me due to the number of dismal wines I have had from the 1970s, as well as stylistic preferences.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
This is my order as well.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I’m sure you’ve had more than most.Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:46 amI don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.
I probably should have qualified with that sort of response as it relates to Margaux. I’ve had it, I’ve had it in some good to very good years, but have never had a bottle that screamed “this is as good as Bordeaux gets.” I have said that about Montrose, Vieux Chateau Certan, Cheval Blanc, and then some obvious ones like Petrus and Ausone. So for the Margaux fans, what vintage could change my mind, or perhaps better stated, give me that revelatory experience?
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Mouton’s highs are much higher than Margaux and Lafite, but they don’t come very often.
But if you look at Bordeaux greatest, Mouton has made many of them. The 1945 and 1959 definitely,and 1961 also is up there. Too much variability with the 1982, but the best bottles are incredible. Never had a great 1986, and then a gap. 1996 is lovely but not great, 2010 is indeed great but 2016 is potentially as good as anything they have ever made. Bit the bullet and bought some. My unborn grandchildren’s wedding rehearsal dinner perhaps.
ITB
Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Me too. I've had the highest highs with Latour and Margaux, but Haut-Brion is so consistently excellent, that it's my #1, I don't worry about "off" vintages. Latour is second and then I think the step function is generally more to the next tier.
Like others, this wouldn't be my list of favorite (or even best) Bordeaux.
ITB-ish.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
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Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???
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Tynan
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Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
How would I rank them ?
1. Out of my price range
2. Out of my price range .
3. Out of my price range.
4. Out of my price range.
5. Out of my price range .
1. Out of my price range
2. Out of my price range .
3. Out of my price range.
4. Out of my price range.
5. Out of my price range .
Bruce Klein
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
If I had to pick one Margaux that epitomizes my love for it: 1990. Might be too fruity for you.Robert.A.Jr. wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:25 amI’m sure you’ve had more than most.Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:46 amI don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.
I probably should have qualified with that sort of response as it relates to Margaux. I’ve had it, I’ve had it in some good to very good years, but have never had a bottle that screamed “this is as good as Bordeaux gets.” I have said that about Montrose, Vieux Chateau Certan, Cheval Blanc, and then some obvious ones like Petrus and Ausone. So for the Margaux fans, what vintage could change my mind, or perhaps better stated, give me that revelatory experience?
I based my ranking on the wines I’ve had a chance to drink, mostly from late 70s to present but far from every vintage, with an occasional older bottle. When I think about it my ranking is based on different criteria for each house, so it’s far from academic or rigorous.
Haut Brion and Latour are #1 and #4 respectively based mostly on my personal like/dislike for their usual style. I admire Latour but the spark just isn’t there for me. Also a big plus for consistency for both, which helps HB but not so much Latour in my book.
Margaux as my #2 is less consistent but has hit some of the highest highs for me. And I’ll confess to being swayed by a fabulous tour, tasting, and dinner there with Corinne Mentzelopoulos and Paul Pontallier that remains the greatest single wine "experience" of my life.
Love Lafite's style and consistency and would likely move it up from #3 to #2 if I were going by the wine itself.
Mouton has hit some home runs (1982, 1986) but it’s least consistent and even when it’s "on" it usually doesn’t push as many buttons for me as the others.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
One really has to love the snowflakes who come into this thread to criticize Bordeaux but then start crying that lovers of European wines are too mean to them when their California wines are criticized. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160126&hilit=old+world Would you like a participation trophy for coming onto this thread?
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Interesting. I have had very high highs with Latour (and Mouton) but not with Margaux. I have had excellent Margauxs, but none that I would call wow wines.Nathan V. wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:44 amMe too. I've had the highest highs with Latour and Margaux, but Haut-Brion is so consistently excellent, that it's my #1, I don't worry about "off" vintages. Latour is second and then I think the step function is generally more to the next tier.
Like others, this wouldn't be my list of favorite (or even best) Bordeaux.
I will start another thread on the favorites (or even best) non-first growth Bordeaux.
Howard
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
As Bordeaux is a Socialist wine shouldnt all wines be equal ?
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
That hasn’t stopped anyone on WB before. Fake it til you make it!Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:46 amI don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
In that vein, a Burg lovers list:
Margaux
HB
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
Margaux
HB
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I have had a *lot* less of these than many here, but I more or less would list them the same as Howard---I might flip Latour and Margaux, but Haut Brion is definitely tops for me. Other than my corked 88, I'm not sure I've ever had less than a really good bottle of it, regardless of the year. The taste profile and aromatic profile just hits the (relatively small--I admire a lot more Bordeaux than I like/love) sweet spot for me in Bordeaux.
Am I allowed to ask a related question? Top houses for Bordeaux Blanc?
For me, HB, Laville, Pape Clement, SHL and Domaine de Chevalier are probably my 5.
Am I allowed to ask a related question? Top houses for Bordeaux Blanc?
For me, HB, Laville, Pape Clement, SHL and Domaine de Chevalier are probably my 5.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Latour
Mouton-Rothschild
Margaux
Haut-Brion
Lafite-Rothschild
Mouton-Rothschild
Margaux
Haut-Brion
Lafite-Rothschild
Tots Units Fem Forca
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Same. Might switch Mouton and Latour.Russell Faulkner wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 8:20 pmRanked based on what? Just personal preference for the way they taste? Probably
HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Mouton
You could probably more or less swap the middle three in any order on any given day.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Haut Brion
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
Like Russell, only the first and last are strong placement for me.
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton
Like Russell, only the first and last are strong placement for me.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
I don't have any strong view on ranking and it would change vintage by vintage. No one has consistently been great or "the best" out of vintages currently good for drinking imho. If I were asked which one I'd like to drink from a random, unknown vintage, I'd probably go for Latour.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
Haut Brion
Mouton
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
I'm going on consistency and quality of wines from the 20th century up until 1990 here. We can discuss post-90 wines in another 20 years' time when it makes sense to do that.
Haut Brion is, as most people say, the most consistently brilliant.
Mouton has its ups and downs but the ups are so good (and I don't personally think the lows are bad at all) that it comes second.
Lafite is inconsistent (particularly between '45 and '82) but I prefer the style to
Latour which, though consistent, is often too burly for me.
Margaux isn't to my mind a first growth wine - had the 1855 rating been made at any point between the 20s and the late 80s, based purely on the quality of the wines, Palmer would have been 1st and Margaux 3rd.
Mouton
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
I'm going on consistency and quality of wines from the 20th century up until 1990 here. We can discuss post-90 wines in another 20 years' time when it makes sense to do that.
Haut Brion is, as most people say, the most consistently brilliant.
Mouton has its ups and downs but the ups are so good (and I don't personally think the lows are bad at all) that it comes second.
Lafite is inconsistent (particularly between '45 and '82) but I prefer the style to
Latour which, though consistent, is often too burly for me.
Margaux isn't to my mind a first growth wine - had the 1855 rating been made at any point between the 20s and the late 80s, based purely on the quality of the wines, Palmer would have been 1st and Margaux 3rd.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
if this is a ranking of the best of Bordeaux, it is incomplete without expanding to the big Eight as I see it.
Petrus and Cheval Blanc are superior to, or rival the FGs in too many classic vintages to not be included.
I do not have enough experience with Ausone to make a valid statement.
Petrus and Cheval Blanc are superior to, or rival the FGs in too many classic vintages to not be included.
I do not have enough experience with Ausone to make a valid statement.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
My personal ranking:
Haut Brion
Latour
Margaux
Lafite
Mouton
Latour was #1 for me from about 1980 until about 10 years ago (still like it a lot) but in recent years I've really been entranced by Haut Brion.
I just love the style of Margaux - so many wonderful recent examples. Had a few great Lafite (1989 and 1996) but too many disappointments (1983 and 1990 and all those ones from the 1970s). Some great Mouton (1982 and 1986 plus a couple others) but a lot of just "good" vintages that don't say first growth.
Haut Brion
Latour
Margaux
Lafite
Mouton
Latour was #1 for me from about 1980 until about 10 years ago (still like it a lot) but in recent years I've really been entranced by Haut Brion.
I just love the style of Margaux - so many wonderful recent examples. Had a few great Lafite (1989 and 1996) but too many disappointments (1983 and 1990 and all those ones from the 1970s). Some great Mouton (1982 and 1986 plus a couple others) but a lot of just "good" vintages that don't say first growth.
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Re: How would you rank the five first growths
my thoughts exactly, I suppose they think they are being cute??? Adds nothing of value to the thread.Howard Cooper wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:45 amOne really has to love the snowflakes who come into this thread to criticize Bordeaux but then start crying that lovers of European wines are too mean to them when their California wines are criticized. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160126&hilit=old+world Would you like a participation trophy for coming onto this thread?