How would you rank the five first growths

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#1 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 28th, 2019, 4:59 pm

For me, I would go:

Haut Brion
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Mouton

Interested in thoughts of others

Kelly Walker · #2 Post by **Kelly Walker** » April 28th, 2019, 5:06 pm

S. Stevenson · #3 Post by **S. Stevenson** » April 28th, 2019, 5:15 pm

The same but, La Mission over all of them.

#4 Post by **David Glasser** » April 28th, 2019, 5:31 pm

Haut Brion
Margaux
Lafite
Latour
Mouton

#5 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 28th, 2019, 5:43 pm

S. Stevenson wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 5:15 pm
The same but, La Mission over all of them.

Are you saying this for the era before Haut Brion bought la Mission, the era since or both?

#6 Post by **Robert.A.Jr.** » April 28th, 2019, 6:04 pm

Howard Cooper wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 4:59 pm
For me, I would go:

Haut Brion
Lafite
Latour
Margaux
Mouton

Interested in thoughts of others

Same on first three. Mouton over Margaux. Mouton can make some explosively crazy delicious wines like in 86 and 82, but on average, below the top three.

#7 Post by **R. Frankel** » April 28th, 2019, 6:14 pm

Based on what I’ve had (and not a huge sample size, especially on Lafite)

Latour
Margaux
Haut Brion
Lafite
Mouton

#8 Post by **D@vid Bu3ker** » April 28th, 2019, 6:20 pm

Currently or historically?

I have had a lot of Lafite and Margaux from the eras when both were substandard.

#9 Post by **Kris Patten** » April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm

Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton

#10 Post by **Charlie Carnes** » April 28th, 2019, 7:31 pm

1: Haut Brion
The others are generally tied, although any of them can be the best of the five in a given year.

Caveat, the last first I bought and drank was 2003 Mouton and it was just a touch above meh.

#11 Post by **jcoley3** » April 28th, 2019, 7:47 pm

1) Lafite
2) Haut Briton
3) Latour
4) Margaux
5) Mouton

With the caveat that my most limited experience with the 5 is HB.

#12 Post by **A. So** » April 28th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Mouton still a 2eme in my mind

#13 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 28th, 2019, 8:18 pm

A. So wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Mouton still a 2eme in my mind

And Mission Haut Brion is a first growth in my mind. But, I am going by official classification.

Russell Faulkner · #14 Post by **Russell Faulkner** » April 28th, 2019, 8:20 pm

Ranked based on what? Just personal preference for the way they taste? Probably

HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Mouton

You could probably more or less swap the middle three in any order on any given day.

LMD Ermitaño · #15 Post by **LMD Ermitaño** » April 28th, 2019, 8:30 pm

Margaux
Lafite
Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton

* Lafite & Latour virtually equal; and Mouton a distant 5th.

#16 Post by **Dinesh Goyal** » April 28th, 2019, 8:31 pm

HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Many others (I know you said official FGs)
Mouton

I just think mouton is overdue a downgrade.

#17 Post by **Tom Reddick** » April 28th, 2019, 8:46 pm

Lafite-Rothschild
Latour
Haut-Brion
Margaux
Mouton-Rothschild

#18 Post by **Mark Golodetz** » April 28th, 2019, 8:49 pm

Latour
Lafite
Haut Brion
Margaux
Mouton

#19 Post by **Larry Link** » April 28th, 2019, 8:53 pm

Latour
Haut-Brion
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton

Jayson Cohen · #20 Post by **Jayson Cohen** » April 28th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Kris Patten wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton

+1

#21 Post by **Mike Maguire** » April 28th, 2019, 9:38 pm

Latuor, period!

Gerhard P. · #22 Post by **Gerhard P.** » April 29th, 2019, 1:48 am

Haut Brion
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton

fwiw: just had Mouton 95 blind on Saturday, and while it was an excellent, even outstanding wine there was nothing screaming First Growth for me. Yes, enjoyable.

#23 Post by **Scott Brunson** » April 29th, 2019, 3:07 am

Kris Patten wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton

ditto

#24 Post by **dcornutt** » April 29th, 2019, 3:43 am

Agree that Mouton is my least favored first growth year to year. I did have one that changed my mind for a short while however.
Mouton killed it in 1959. I would take that one over all the others in that year. FWIW. Year to year I do like Howard's list.

#25 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 29th, 2019, 3:59 am

dcornutt wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 3:43 am
Agree that Mouton is my least favored first growth year to year. I did have one that changed my mind for a short while however.
Mouton killed it in 1959. I would take that one over all the others in that year. FWIW. Year to year I do like Howard's list.

I have not had the 1959 Mouton, but the 1959 Latour was one of the greatest Bordeauxs I have ever had.

#26 Post by **D@vid Bu3ker** » April 29th, 2019, 4:32 am

I have had a lot of Mouton that was utterly delicious. I guess I just like the style more than most.

Overall I could go:

Latour
Haut Brion
Mouton
Margaux
Lafite

Lafite is at the bottom for me due to the number of dismal wines I have had from the 1970s, as well as stylistic preferences.

#27 Post by **Neal.Mollen** » April 29th, 2019, 4:46 am

I don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.

#28 Post by **Mike Evans** » April 29th, 2019, 5:11 am

Kris Patten wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton

This is my order as well.

#29 Post by **Robert.A.Jr.** » April 29th, 2019, 5:25 am

Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 4:46 am
I don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.

I’m sure you’ve had more than most.

I probably should have qualified with that sort of response as it relates to Margaux. I’ve had it, I’ve had it in some good to very good years, but have never had a bottle that screamed “this is as good as Bordeaux gets.” I have said that about Montrose, Vieux Chateau Certan, Cheval Blanc, and then some obvious ones like Petrus and Ausone. So for the Margaux fans, what vintage could change my mind, or perhaps better stated, give me that revelatory experience?

#30 Post by **Mark Golodetz** » April 29th, 2019, 6:27 am

dcornutt wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 3:43 am
Agree that Mouton is my least favored first growth year to year. I did have one that changed my mind for a short while however.
Mouton killed it in 1959. I would take that one over all the others in that year. FWIW. Year to year I do like Howard's list.

Mouton’s highs are much higher than Margaux and Lafite, but they don’t come very often.

But if you look at Bordeaux greatest, Mouton has made many of them. The 1945 and 1959 definitely,and 1961 also is up there. Too much variability with the 1982, but the best bottles are incredible. Never had a great 1986, and then a gap. 1996 is lovely but not great, 2010 is indeed great but 2016 is potentially as good as anything they have ever made. Bit the bullet and bought some. My unborn grandchildren’s wedding rehearsal dinner perhaps.

Nathan V. · #31 Post by **Nathan V.** » April 29th, 2019, 6:44 am

Jayson Cohen wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Kris Patten wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton
+1

Me too. I've had the highest highs with Latour and Margaux, but Haut-Brion is so consistently excellent, that it's my #1, I don't worry about "off" vintages. Latour is second and then I think the step function is generally more to the next tier.

Like others, this wouldn't be my list of favorite (or even best) Bordeaux.

AlexO · #32 Post by **AlexO** » April 29th, 2019, 6:48 am

MacDonald
Tynan
Lokoya
Scarecrow
Shafer Hillside

Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???

#33 Post by **Mark Thompson** » April 29th, 2019, 7:08 am

A. So wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Mouton still a 2eme in my mind

First I am. Second I used to (and probably still should) be. Mouton does not change.

OwenB · #34 Post by **OwenB** » April 29th, 2019, 7:40 am

AlexO wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 6:48 am
MacDonald
Tynan
Lokoya
Scarecrow
Shafer Hillside

Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???

Bdklein · #35 Post by **Bdklein** » April 29th, 2019, 7:41 am

How would I rank them ?

1. Out of my price range
2. Out of my price range .
3. Out of my price range.
4. Out of my price range.
5. Out of my price range .

#36 Post by **David Glasser** » April 29th, 2019, 7:56 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 5:25 am

Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 4:46 am
I don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.
I’m sure you’ve had more than most.

I probably should have qualified with that sort of response as it relates to Margaux. I’ve had it, I’ve had it in some good to very good years, but have never had a bottle that screamed “this is as good as Bordeaux gets.” I have said that about Montrose, Vieux Chateau Certan, Cheval Blanc, and then some obvious ones like Petrus and Ausone. So for the Margaux fans, what vintage could change my mind, or perhaps better stated, give me that revelatory experience?

If I had to pick one Margaux that epitomizes my love for it: 1990. Might be too fruity for you.

I based my ranking on the wines I’ve had a chance to drink, mostly from late 70s to present but far from every vintage, with an occasional older bottle. When I think about it my ranking is based on different criteria for each house, so it’s far from academic or rigorous.

Haut Brion and Latour are #1 and #4 respectively based mostly on my personal like/dislike for their usual style. I admire Latour but the spark just isn’t there for me. Also a big plus for consistency for both, which helps HB but not so much Latour in my book.

Margaux as my #2 is less consistent but has hit some of the highest highs for me. And I’ll confess to being swayed by a fabulous tour, tasting, and dinner there with Corinne Mentzelopoulos and Paul Pontallier that remains the greatest single wine "experience" of my life.

Love Lafite's style and consistency and would likely move it up from #3 to #2 if I were going by the wine itself.

Mouton has hit some home runs (1982, 1986) but it’s least consistent and even when it’s "on" it usually doesn’t push as many buttons for me as the others.

#37 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 29th, 2019, 9:45 am

OwenB wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 7:40 am

AlexO wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 6:48 am
MacDonald
Tynan
Lokoya
Scarecrow
Shafer Hillside

Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???

One really has to love the snowflakes who come into this thread to criticize Bordeaux but then start crying that lovers of European wines are too mean to them when their California wines are criticized. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160126&hilit=old+world Would you like a participation trophy for coming onto this thread?

#38 Post by **Howard Cooper** » April 29th, 2019, 9:49 am

Nathan V. wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 6:44 am

Jayson Cohen wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Kris Patten wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 7:06 pm
Haut Brion
Latour
Lafite
Margaux
Mouton
+1
Me too. I've had the highest highs with Latour and Margaux, but Haut-Brion is so consistently excellent, that it's my #1, I don't worry about "off" vintages. Latour is second and then I think the step function is generally more to the next tier.

Like others, this wouldn't be my list of favorite (or even best) Bordeaux.

Interesting. I have had very high highs with Latour (and Mouton) but not with Margaux. I have had excellent Margauxs, but none that I would call wow wines.

I will start another thread on the favorites (or even best) non-first growth Bordeaux.

#39 Post by **Alan Eden** » April 29th, 2019, 9:59 am

As Bordeaux is a Socialist wine shouldnt all wines be equal ?

#40 Post by **Matthew King** » April 29th, 2019, 10:00 am

Neal.Mollen wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 4:46 am
I don't think I have had enough of any of them to make that judgment.

That hasn’t stopped anyone on WB before. Fake it til you make it!

#41 Post by **Matthew King** » April 29th, 2019, 10:02 am

In that vein, a Burg lovers list:

Margaux
HB
Latour
Lafite
Mouton

Mike Grammer · #42 Post by **Mike Grammer** » April 29th, 2019, 10:15 am

I have had a *lot* less of these than many here, but I more or less would list them the same as Howard---I might flip Latour and Margaux, but Haut Brion is definitely tops for me. Other than my corked 88, I'm not sure I've ever had less than a really good bottle of it, regardless of the year. The taste profile and aromatic profile just hits the (relatively small--I admire a lot more Bordeaux than I like/love) sweet spot for me in Bordeaux.

Am I allowed to ask a related question? Top houses for Bordeaux Blanc?

For me, HB, Laville, Pape Clement, SHL and Domaine de Chevalier are probably my 5.

Steen T Olsen · #43 Post by **Steen T Olsen** » April 29th, 2019, 12:27 pm

Latour
Mouton-Rothschild
Margaux
Haut-Brion
Lafite-Rothschild

#44 Post by **John Davis** » April 29th, 2019, 12:54 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote: ↑
April 28th, 2019, 8:20 pm
Ranked based on what? Just personal preference for the way they taste? Probably

HB
Lafite
Margaux
Latour
Mouton

You could probably more or less swap the middle three in any order on any given day.

Same. Might switch Mouton and Latour.

Sarah Kirschbaum · #45 Post by **Sarah Kirschbaum** » April 29th, 2019, 3:07 pm

Haut Brion
Margaux
Latour
Lafite
Mouton

Like Russell, only the first and last are strong placement for me.

Rauno E (NZ) · #46 Post by **Rauno E (NZ)** » April 29th, 2019, 3:16 pm

I don't have any strong view on ranking and it would change vintage by vintage. No one has consistently been great or "the best" out of vintages currently good for drinking imho. If I were asked which one I'd like to drink from a random, unknown vintage, I'd probably go for Latour.

Eric Egan · #47 Post by **Eric Egan** » April 29th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Haut Brion
Mouton
Lafite
Latour
Margaux

I'm going on consistency and quality of wines from the 20th century up until 1990 here. We can discuss post-90 wines in another 20 years' time when it makes sense to do that.

Haut Brion is, as most people say, the most consistently brilliant.
Mouton has its ups and downs but the ups are so good (and I don't personally think the lows are bad at all) that it comes second.
Lafite is inconsistent (particularly between '45 and '82) but I prefer the style to
Latour which, though consistent, is often too burly for me.
Margaux isn't to my mind a first growth wine - had the 1855 rating been made at any point between the 20s and the late 80s, based purely on the quality of the wines, Palmer would have been 1st and Margaux 3rd.

Richard Albert · #48 Post by **Richard Albert** » April 29th, 2019, 5:24 pm

if this is a ranking of the best of Bordeaux, it is incomplete without expanding to the big Eight as I see it.
Petrus and Cheval Blanc are superior to, or rival the FGs in too many classic vintages to not be included.
I do not have enough experience with Ausone to make a valid statement.

Chris Bublitz · #49 Post by **Chris Bublitz** » April 29th, 2019, 6:35 pm

My personal ranking:

Haut Brion
Latour
Margaux
Lafite
Mouton

Latour was #1 for me from about 1980 until about 10 years ago (still like it a lot) but in recent years I've really been entranced by Haut Brion.

I just love the style of Margaux - so many wonderful recent examples. Had a few great Lafite (1989 and 1996) but too many disappointments (1983 and 1990 and all those ones from the 1970s). Some great Mouton (1982 and 1986 plus a couple others) but a lot of just "good" vintages that don't say first growth.

brodie thomson · #50 Post by **brodie thomson** » April 29th, 2019, 6:42 pm

Howard Cooper wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 9:45 am

OwenB wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 7:40 am

AlexO wrote: ↑
April 29th, 2019, 6:48 am
MacDonald
Tynan
Lokoya
Scarecrow
Shafer Hillside

Oh wait...people actually still care about Bordeaux???

One really has to love the snowflakes who come into this thread to criticize Bordeaux but then start crying that lovers of European wines are too mean to them when their California wines are criticized. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160126&hilit=old+world Would you like a participation trophy for coming onto this thread?

my thoughts exactly, I suppose they think they are being cute??? Adds nothing of value to the thread.