What are your top italian whites ?

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Andrew A r n t f i e l d
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#51 Post by Andrew A r n t f i e l d » April 2nd, 2019, 1:16 pm

Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 5:53 am
Andrew,

Never tasted this Quintarelli's white (Garganega, Trebbiano Toscano, Sauvignon Bianco, Chardonnay and Saorin)
It's terrific, IMHO, and an annual case buy for me. A bonus: it's still reasonably priced at under $40 USD.

Viscous mouthfeel with apricot, peach, lemon, and sweet honeysuckle, but the palate-coating fruit is balanced with a solid acidic edge. A lingering finish.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#52 Post by Andrew A r n t f i e l d » April 2nd, 2019, 1:20 pm

Another that I recently tried for the first time (thanks Envoyer!) and would add to my list:
  • Edi Kante Vitovska Selezione
The clarity and salinity of a good Chablis balanced with a melange of orchard fruit.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#53 Post by Anders G » April 2nd, 2019, 1:42 pm

As Tom and Otto pointed out, Timorasso provides some of the best white wines of Italy and can challenge the best white expressions in the world. Timorasso is ridiculously underestimated and can be appreciated young, but ages even better. Walter Massa leads the pack but there are several other producers on a high level.
Agree with the before mentioned Quintarellis white Valpolicella and Valentinis Trebbiano d'Abruzzo, these are world class whites, as are the Friuli whites from Josko Gravner and earlier wines from Stanko Radikon.
I have a soft spot for the whites of Lazio such as Falanghina or Greco di Tufo as well as Vermentino di Sardegna particularly from the Gallura region, but they do not reach the class or depth of the former mentioned wines, imho.

I too think the sweet wines from Marsala by the passed away Marco de Bartoli belong to the best sweet wines in the world.

And, as a passionate of Sherry wines, of course Vernaccia de Oristano has to belong on a list of Italy's best white wines!

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#54 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm

John Morris wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 7:13 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 5:21 am
- Ettore Germano Nascetta
That's a great addition to the list!

The only nascettas I've had are Germano's and Cogno's, and they're both fascinating wines, with a lot of complexity and concentration and a strong saline element. Nadia Cogno said that she likes theirs with 10 years of age, so I've stashed away a few bottles.

For those who don't know nascetta, it's a grape that was almost extinct. It's grown almost exclusively in the Novello village in Barolo, where it's experiencing a bit of a revival. That was the story of arneis, too, until Alfredo Currado at Vietti started taking it seriously many decades ago.
Of those handful of Nascettas I've had, Germano's have been the best. Rivetto and Diego Conterno Nascettas have been very good as well, while San Silvestro's Ghercina Naschetta was a rather uninteresting effort. Then I've tasted some wines that fit somewhere there in-between, but I've yet to taste that Cogno one.
Last edited by Otto Forsberg on April 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#55 Post by James Sanders » April 2nd, 2019, 2:26 pm

g.colangelo wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 10:08 am
Fiano di Avellino (for example Pietracupa and Ciro Picariello)
and Greco di Tufo (in addition to the two above, also Benito Ferrara and his Vigna Cicogna)
We were in the south two weeks ago and had the Ciro Picariello Fiano 2016 in Positano. It was lovely. Best white of the trip. We tried his 2017 Greco a few nights later, and it was still a bit angular. But the promise is there. This is a producer I'll keep on my radar.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#56 Post by Jim Stewart » April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
For sweet, I'd have to go with Avignonesi Vin Santo; I had a '94, tremendous complexity, like port squared, while also being the most viscous wine I have ever encountered. On non-sweet, there are so many and so many different styles,a number of which have been mentioned above. Pieropan is certainly one, very classic; Gravner, another, and just the opposite. Then, there are the various Arneis, including Giacosa and Vietti, as well as Freisa, and all the Sicilians, both Carricante and Fiano (which I am just getting to know better). Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
Joshua, we had a tour and wine-paired lunch at Avignonesi in June 2017 on my wife's birthday. Nice wines, generous pours / re-pours and tasty food. Their Vin Santo was a definite highlight of the meal, but was topped that day by their Balsamic Vinegar as the best liquid on the table. We thought we would bring back some of it (the vinegar) for a gourmet neighbor, but balked when we saw the price of the small cruet. [wow.gif]
Cheers
-Jim

Avignonesi Vin Santo with dessert plate
IMG_1010.JPG
through the wine and wine glasses
IMG_3476.JPG

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#57 Post by Joe W i n o g r a d » April 2nd, 2019, 8:59 pm

Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
It has been interesting to me to explore the Montenidoli bottlings. I’ve especially liked the Vernaccia Tradizionale and Templare (vernaccia+trebbiano gentile+malvasia blend...the poor man’s tondonia blanco!). Back vintages can be found here for a song.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#58 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 12:34 am

Anders G wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:42 pm
As Tom and Otto pointed out, Timorasso provides some of the best white wines of Italy and can challenge the best white expressions in the world. Timorasso is ridiculously underestimated and can be appreciated young, but ages even better. Walter Massa leads the pack but there are several other producers on a high level.
Agree with the before mentioned Quintarellis white Valpolicella and Valentinis Trebbiano d'Abruzzo, these are world class whites, as are the Friuli whites from Josko Gravner and earlier wines from Stanko Radikon.
I have a soft spot for the whites of Lazio such as Falanghina or Greco di Tufo as well as Vermentino di Sardegna particularly from the Gallura region, but they do not reach the class or depth of the former mentioned wines, imho.

I too think the sweet wines from Marsala by the passed away Marco de Bartoli belong to the best sweet wines in the world.

And, as a passionate of Sherry wines, of course Vernaccia de Oristano has to belong on a list of Italy's best white wines!
I tasted, several years ago : Vernaccia Di Oristano - Azienda Vinicola Attilio Contini 1985, 1992 and "Flor" 1997.
Intersting but less than Marco de Bartoli (grillo) and not great as many sherrys I often enjoy (Tradicion, Lustau Vors, Equipo Navazos as well as many others ...).
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#59 Post by Mark Henderson » April 3rd, 2019, 2:02 am

Walter Massa Timorasso tops the list for me.
Elvio Cogno Nas-cetta was memorable too.
Paolo Bea Trebbiano Spoletino intellectually stimulating
This may sound odd given the thread title, but a good Moscato d'Asti is a wonderfully joyous thing

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#60 Post by Gary York » April 3rd, 2019, 3:05 am

As is often the case, vintage can be very important to the choices. And of course age. Still these are some good choices.

Tavignano Verdicchio Misco and Misco Riserva
Brovia Arneis
Benito Ferrara Greco Vigna Cicogna
LaStaffa Verdicchio Riserva
Cantine Lonardo Grecomusc'
Cenatiempo Ischia Bianco and Lefkos
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#61 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 3:10 am

Thank you again for all your propositions ...
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#62 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » April 3rd, 2019, 3:27 am

Graci Etna Bianco Arcuria

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#63 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 4:13 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 3:27 am
Graci Etna Bianco Arcuria
Great disappointment with Etna bianco Graci 2011 (70 carricante, 30 carratto) as related here :
http://www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr/ind ... e-l-etna-2

Flawed bottle ?
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#64 Post by Joshua Kates » April 3rd, 2019, 4:17 am

Joe W i n o g r a d wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 8:59 pm
Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
It has been interesting to me to explore the Montenidoli bottlings. I’ve especially liked the Vernaccia Tradizionale and Templare (vernaccia+trebbiano gentile+malvasia blend...the poor man’s tondonia blanco!). Back vintages can be found here for a song.
Thanks, Joe, I will keep an eye out, especially as I enjoy the Tondonia!

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#65 Post by Joshua Kates » April 3rd, 2019, 4:19 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm
Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
For sweet, I'd have to go with Avignonesi Vin Santo; I had a '94, tremendous complexity, like port squared, while also being the most viscous wine I have ever encountered. On non-sweet, there are so many and so many different styles,a number of which have been mentioned above. Pieropan is certainly one, very classic; Gravner, another, and just the opposite. Then, there are the various Arneis, including Giacosa and Vietti, as well as Freisa, and all the Sicilians, both Carricante and Fiano (which I am just getting to know better). Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
Joshua, we had a tour and wine-paired lunch at Avignonesi in June 2017 on my wife's birthday. Nice wines, generous pours / re-pours and tasty food. Their Vin Santo was a definite highlight of the meal, but was topped that day by their Balsamic Vinegar as the best liquid on the table. We thought we would bring back some of it (the vinegar) for a gourmet neighbor, but balked when we saw the price of the small cruet. [wow.gif]
Cheers
-Jim

Avignonesi Vin Santo with dessert plate
IMG_1010.JPG
through the wine and wine glasses
IMG_3476.JPG
What year was the Vin Santo? My sense is they need a lot of time to show all their stuff.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#66 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » April 3rd, 2019, 4:34 am

Could be, that’s the base wine, which I thought was good but not as good as the Arcuria single vineyard (100% carricante)
Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 4:13 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 3:27 am
Graci Etna Bianco Arcuria
Great disappointment with Etna bianco Graci 2011 (70 carricante, 30 carratto) as related here :
http://www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr/ind ... e-l-etna-2

Flawed bottle ?

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#67 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 3rd, 2019, 5:26 am

Joe W i n o g r a d wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 8:59 pm
Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
It has been interesting to me to explore the Montenidoli bottlings. I’ve especially liked the Vernaccia Tradizionale and Templare (vernaccia+trebbiano gentile+malvasia blend...the poor man’s tondonia blanco!).
I concur, brilliant wines.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#68 Post by John Morris » April 3rd, 2019, 5:40 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm
Of those handful of Nascettas I've had, Germano's have been the best. Rivetto and Diego Conterno Nascettas have been very good as well, while San Silvestro's Ghercina Naschetta was a rather uninteresting effort. Then I've tasted some wines that fit somewhere there in-between, but I've yet to taste that Cogno one.
If you like the grape, you should definitely seek out the Cogno.
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#69 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 3rd, 2019, 5:46 am

John Morris wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 5:40 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm
Of those handful of Nascettas I've had, Germano's have been the best. Rivetto and Diego Conterno Nascettas have been very good as well, while San Silvestro's Ghercina Naschetta was a rather uninteresting effort. Then I've tasted some wines that fit somewhere there in-between, but I've yet to taste that Cogno one.
If you like the grape, you should definitely seek out the Cogno.
Good to know, I'll try to seek out a bottle!

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#70 Post by Tim Heaton » April 3rd, 2019, 5:49 am

John Morris wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 5:40 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm
Of those handful of Nascettas I've had, Germano's have been the best. Rivetto and Diego Conterno Nascettas have been very good as well, while San Silvestro's Ghercina Naschetta was a rather uninteresting effort. Then I've tasted some wines that fit somewhere there in-between, but I've yet to taste that Cogno one.
If you like the grape, you should definitely seek out the Cogno.
I disagree. Having had all of the Cogno, all, I think, for Otto's palate (and certainly for mine), the Anna Maria Abbona may be more appreciated. The Cogno is (more) full bodied. Yes, it's 'delicious', but not the essence of the grape, more the essence of a (medium+ body, fleshy) style. I had the two side-by-side years ago, and my comments re: the Cogno were 'it's for suckers'. YMMV
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#71 Post by John Kight » April 3rd, 2019, 6:06 am

I like the COS Pithos Bianco. It's a "mildly orange" wine, without as much skin contact as Radikon, and I feel that it shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character that comes from some of the more overdone skin contact wines.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#72 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 3rd, 2019, 6:18 am

John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:06 am
I like the COS Pithos Bianco. It's a "mildly orange" wine, without as much skin contact as Radikon, and I feel that it shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character that comes from some of the more overdone skin contact wines.
It's funny when people say this, but they'd never say how a Provencal rosé shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character than the wines made in, say, Châteauneuf-du-Pape.

But yeah, I agree with you, at least up to a point - for example many producers try to coax out more varietal character in their whites with maceration periods of 6-48 hours. Still, I'd argue that with most orange / skin contact wines the monolithic character comes from winemaking practices, not extended skin contact. I've had tons of lovely, balanced and not overdone orange wines / skin-contact whites with very long maceration times.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#73 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am

Joe W i n o g r a d wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 8:59 pm
Joshua Kates wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:33 pm
Generally, I avoid Tuscan whites and most vermentino, but I may be missing something.
It has been interesting to me to explore the Montenidoli bottlings. I’ve especially liked the Vernaccia Tradizionale and Templare (vernaccia+trebbiano gentile+malvasia blend...the poor man’s tondonia blanco!). Back vintages can be found here for a song.
Lopez de Heredia Tondonia ?
The GR 1973, drunk at the domaine, is a great white ...
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#74 Post by Joe W i n o g r a d » April 3rd, 2019, 8:01 am

Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am

Lopez de Heredia Tondonia ?
The GR 1973, drunk at the domaine, is a great white ...
The Montenidoli whites that are on the market in SoCal are 10-15 years old and around $20. I don’t know if they are “top Italian wines”, but certainly not “ones to avoid.” That they would suggest tondonia blanco is pretty cool...I think that Montenidoli is also a very traditional estate may be a part of this
Last edited by Joe W i n o g r a d on April 3rd, 2019, 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#75 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 8:13 am

Joe W i n o g r a d wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 8:01 am
Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am

Lopez de Heredia Tondonia ?
The GR 1973, drunk at the domaine, is a great white ...
The Montenidoli whites that are on the market in SoCal are 10-15 years old and around $20. I don’t know if they are “too Italian wines”, but certainly not “ones to avoid.” That they would suggest tondonia blanco is pretty cool...I think that Montenidoli is also a very traditional estate may be a part of this
Never tasted Montenidoli.
Spain producs interesting whites I very often taste.
Ols style Rioja whites are among the best wines in the world (Tondonia Gran Reserva 1991, Murrieta Castello Ygay 1986, ...).
Wines to discover :
Valdeorras Rafael Palacios As Sortes 2016 (godello)
Rias Baixas Pazo Senorans seleccion de Anada (albarino)
...
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#76 Post by John Kight » April 3rd, 2019, 8:18 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:18 am
John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:06 am
I like the COS Pithos Bianco. It's a "mildly orange" wine, without as much skin contact as Radikon, and I feel that it shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character that comes from some of the more overdone skin contact wines.
It's funny when people say this, but they'd never say how a Provencal rosé shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character than the wines made in, say, Châteauneuf-du-Pape.

But yeah, I agree with you, at least up to a point - for example many producers try to coax out more varietal character in their whites with maceration periods of 6-48 hours. Still, I'd argue that with most orange / skin contact wines the monolithic character comes from winemaking practices, not extended skin contact. I've had tons of lovely, balanced and not overdone orange wines / skin-contact whites with very long maceration times.
Honestly, when I drink these wines I have no idea what the actual maceration time was. Skin contact wines have certain taste characteristic, and I always assume that the stronger that characteristic, the longer the skin contact must have been. My objection/concern is that I find that as wines acquire more of this skin-contact flavour, they tend to taste more and more similar to one another. It may be that I just haven't had enough of them (though I've probably tasted 20-30) to be able to distinguish between them. (As per your rose/CdP analogy above, I can certainly imagine an inexperienced red-wine drinker saying that all reds taste too much alike.) My favourite of the orange wines have been Paolo Bea's Santa Chiara (a top favourite, as it's very elegant for this category), Coenobium (mentioned above), Cos Pithos Bianco, Gravner wines generally (though they are far too expensive), Vodopivec Vitovska, the Zidarich Ribolla Gialla, and the Movia wines (which I adore).

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#77 Post by Nick Kra Mar Ski » April 3rd, 2019, 8:21 am

Had a Lugana Riserva recently which was very fun

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#78 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 3rd, 2019, 8:30 am

I also tried Orto di Venezia and wines from Cinque Terre, without real surprises.

Movia is a slovenian winery ?!
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#79 Post by Jay Miller » April 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am

John Morris wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:58 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 1:49 pm
At the high end, I used to like the Paolo Bea whites, such as the Santa Chiara, but I haven't seen those wines in years.
The Santa Chiara is on shelves in New York.
and I really like it too though it's shading towards orange rather than white.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Well..

#80 Post by TomHill » April 3rd, 2019, 9:22 am

John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 8:18 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:18 am
John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:06 am
I like the COS Pithos Bianco. It's a "mildly orange" wine, without as much skin contact as Radikon, and I feel that it shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character that comes from some of the more overdone skin contact wines.
It's funny when people say this, but they'd never say how a Provencal rosé shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character than the wines made in, say, Châteauneuf-du-Pape.

But yeah, I agree with you, at least up to a point - for example many producers try to coax out more varietal character in their whites with maceration periods of 6-48 hours. Still, I'd argue that with most orange / skin contact wines the monolithic character comes from winemaking practices, not extended skin contact. I've had tons of lovely, balanced and not overdone orange wines / skin-contact whites with very long maceration times.
Honestly, when I drink these wines I have no idea what the actual maceration time was. Skin contact wines have certain taste characteristic, and I always assume that the stronger that characteristic, the longer the skin contact must have been. My objection/concern is that I find that as wines acquire more of this skin-contact flavour, they tend to taste more and more similar to one another. It may be that I just haven't had enough of them (though I've probably tasted 20-30) to be able to distinguish between them. (As per your rose/CdP analogy above, I can certainly imagine an inexperienced red-wine drinker saying that all reds taste too much alike.) My favourite of the orange wines have been Paolo Bea's Santa Chiara (a top favourite, as it's very elegant for this category), Coenobium (mentioned above), Cos Pithos Bianco, Gravner wines generally (though they are far too expensive), Vodopivec Vitovska, the Zidarich Ribolla Gialla, and the Movia wines (which I adore).
Well, I guess I agree w/ Otto's comment...to an extent. But also w/ John's take as well.
I've been tasting as many skin-contact whites as I can. Depending (somewhat) on the length of skin-contact, they have a distinct character that I refer to as "phenolic". A sort of
savory/saline character. Sometimes/oftentimes it can dominate the wine to the extent that varietal character is sublimed, at least varietal character as I recognize. Sort like heavy
botrytis, with its peachy/apricotty character, can dominate a wine at the expense of the varietal character..at least varietal character as I recognize it. I've had Navarro R & GWT
TBA's side by side and danged if I can identify any varietal character in them.

This "phenolic" character tends to be more dominate with the longer the skin-contact...but not always. I've had skin-contact whites w/ only a few days of maceration
that are dominated by the phenolics. And I've had skin-contact whites w/ month or more skin-contact in which the "phenolic" character is not dominate.
When it comes to skin-contact whites, I tend to like the ones that are not all about "phenolic" character...ones that tend to have other things, mostly fruit/varietal character
in them. This seems to be when the skin-contact time is less. But not always. These wines tend to be more balanced and not as tannic on the palate.
One that I particularly like is SamBilbro's Cortese. It is made by harvesting the sun-exposed grapes and making via skin-contact. The shaded Cortese grapes are made conventionally.
These two lots are then blended to achieve a wine that has a nice blend of phenolic character and ripe fruit.
A recent skin-contact white that blew me away was the SandiSkerk Ograde '16. It had 2 weeks of skin-contact, post-fermentation. I was expecting it to be dominated by the
phenolics. It was not and showed that nice balance between skin-contact phenolics and lush/ripe fruit. A fantastic skin-contact white I thought...one of the best.

Another aspect is how these skin-contact whites age. Certainly the phenolics send them on a rather uncertain ageing trajectory. I've had some very strongly phenolic whites
that, with age, evolved into a very/very exotic wine. But not something you would recognize as a well-aged Vitovska, say. I'm not very good at predicting how these skin-contact
whites are going to evolve. Need to take more data points, I guess.
Tom

Tom DeBiase
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Re: Well..

#81 Post by Tom DeBiase » April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 pm

TomHill wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 9:22 am
John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 8:18 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 6:18 am


It's funny when people say this, but they'd never say how a Provencal rosé shows more grape complexity and less of the monolithic character than the wines made in, say, Châteauneuf-du-Pape.

But yeah, I agree with you, at least up to a point - for example many producers try to coax out more varietal character in their whites with maceration periods of 6-48 hours. Still, I'd argue that with most orange / skin contact wines the monolithic character comes from winemaking practices, not extended skin contact. I've had tons of lovely, balanced and not overdone orange wines / skin-contact whites with very long maceration times.
Honestly, when I drink these wines I have no idea what the actual maceration time was. Skin contact wines have certain taste characteristic, and I always assume that the stronger that characteristic, the longer the skin contact must have been. My objection/concern is that I find that as wines acquire more of this skin-contact flavour, they tend to taste more and more similar to one another. It may be that I just haven't had enough of them (though I've probably tasted 20-30) to be able to distinguish between them. (As per your rose/CdP analogy above, I can certainly imagine an inexperienced red-wine drinker saying that all reds taste too much alike.) My favourite of the orange wines have been Paolo Bea's Santa Chiara (a top favourite, as it's very elegant for this category), Coenobium (mentioned above), Cos Pithos Bianco, Gravner wines generally (though they are far too expensive), Vodopivec Vitovska, the Zidarich Ribolla Gialla, and the Movia wines (which I adore).
Well, I guess I agree w/ Otto's comment...to an extent. But also w/ John's take as well.
I've been tasting as many skin-contact whites as I can. Depending (somewhat) on the length of skin-contact, they have a distinct character that I refer to as "phenolic". A sort of
savory/saline character. Sometimes/oftentimes it can dominate the wine to the extent that varietal character is sublimed, at least varietal character as I recognize. Sort like heavy
botrytis, with its peachy/apricotty character, can dominate a wine at the expense of the varietal character..at least varietal character as I recognize it. I've had Navarro R & GWT
TBA's side by side and danged if I can identify any varietal character in them.

This "phenolic" character tends to be more dominate with the longer the skin-contact...but not always. I've had skin-contact whites w/ only a few days of maceration
that are dominated by the phenolics. And I've had skin-contact whites w/ month or more skin-contact in which the "phenolic" character is not dominate.
When it comes to skin-contact whites, I tend to like the ones that are not all about "phenolic" character...ones that tend to have other things, mostly fruit/varietal character
in them. This seems to be when the skin-contact time is less. But not always. These wines tend to be more balanced and not as tannic on the palate.
One that I particularly like is SamBilbro's Cortese. It is made by harvesting the sun-exposed grapes and making via skin-contact. The shaded Cortese grapes are made conventionally.
These two lots are then blended to achieve a wine that has a nice blend of phenolic character and ripe fruit.
A recent skin-contact white that blew me away was the SandiSkerk Ograde '16. It had 2 weeks of skin-contact, post-fermentation. I was expecting it to be dominated by the
phenolics. It was not and showed that nice balance between skin-contact phenolics and lush/ripe fruit. A fantastic skin-contact white I thought...one of the best.

Another aspect is how these skin-contact whites age. Certainly the phenolics send them on a rather uncertain ageing trajectory. I've had some very strongly phenolic whites
that, with age, evolved into a very/very exotic wine. But not something you would recognize as a well-aged Vitovska, say. I'm not very good at predicting how these skin-contact
whites are going to evolve. Need to take more data points, I guess.
Tom
Otto, John, Tom, very good questions and thoughts on skin fermented whites and similar to mine. I have have asked some winemakers about their winemaking technique in regards to skin fermented whites. Will post a reply when I hear from them.

Tom

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#82 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 4th, 2019, 2:20 am

There are so many kinds of orange wines, in Georgia, Hungary (Kalo's wines) and other countries : grapes, maceration length, kinds of amphoras (burried or not), ...

ex : Three very different expressions :

Cinque Terre Azienda Agricola Possa 2010 : 15/20 – 1/7/2015
Vin avec macération de peaux, peu appuyée. De la mesure (cf. les robustes vins oranges géorgiens goûtés récemment), du caractère (fumée, épices, raisin de Corinthe) et un peu racinaire, avec un côté pépins/rafle.
Rappel (début 2015)
172. Italie (Ligurie) - Azienda Agricola Possa : Bianco delle Cinqueterre 2010
(Bosco, Albarola, Vermentino complétés de Rossesse, Picabon, Frappelà et Barbatelle) - macération pelliculaire
Caractère singulier pour ce vin qui semble hors de nos sentiers battus. Animal, réduit, avec des odeurs de biscotte, de pomme verte, d’orange, d’épices, de cire, de raisin de Corinthe. Pas trop de coffre (finale fuyante) et de la verdeur, comme pour un vin de montagne. J’ai pensé à un sylvaner de Franconie (ou à un vin hongrois de Imre Kalo en Leanyka). Quelqu’un évoquera un vin d’amphore. Le genre de vin assez rare/anonyme que l’on ne croise pas tous les jours.

5. Junior’s Marani Rkatsiteli 2014 Shilda (Kakheti)
Les raisins sont achetés en Tsinandali microzone.
15,5/20
Ce qui frappe ici (et dans ce contexte de vins virils), c'est la délicatesse d'approche. Notes douces de coing, d'abricot, de Cointreau. Bouche à l'avenant, domptant magistralement ses tannins.

7. Tsikhelishvili Wines Rkatsiteli 2010 Zemo Alvani/ Akhmeta (Kakheti) - qvevri
14,5/20
Robe soutenue. Olfaction ranciotée, tannins puncheurs. Ingrat, ultra rustique, à l'opposé du vin n°5.

www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#83 Post by Markus S » April 4th, 2019, 6:51 am

Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 8:30 am
I also tried Orto di Venezia and wines from Cinque Terre, without real surprises.

Movia is a slovenian winery ?!
It's on the border, close enough!
$ _ € ® e . k @

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#84 Post by Joel S Morris » April 4th, 2019, 6:59 am

Don't believe that I noted anyone mention Orvieto. The 12 Barberani Orvieto Classico Luigi & Giovanna was fabulous.

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#85 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 4th, 2019, 7:17 am

Joel S Morris wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 6:59 am
Don't believe that I noted anyone mention Orvieto. The 12 Barberani Orvieto Classico Luigi & Giovanna was fabulous.
Joel,

Thank you for your proposition.

In my archives :

Italie (Ombrie) - Domaine Castello della Sala : Orvieto "San Giovanni della Sala" 2012 (drunk in 2014)
(Grechetto, Procanico et un peu de Pinot blanc et de Viognier)
Robe paille, claire, légèrement verte.
Ambivalence pourtant cohérente entre fraîcheur presque végétale (citron, fleurs blanches, feuilles froissées) et maturité exotique (abricot, mangue). Bouche séveuse, charnue, fine, salivante, d’équilibre digeste, entre maturité, plénitude et fraîcheur saline. Forte ressemblance avec un vin galicien à base d’albarino (Rias Baixas). Fruité, littoral, entraînant. Une notable réussite.
Analyse potentiellement plus critique dans le tour de table, avec un vin jugé correct mais linéaire, consensuel, plus commercial que réellement intéressant.

Italie : Orvieto Classico - Marchesi Antinori "Campogrande" 2009 (drunk in 2012)
(40% procanino soit trebbiano de Ombrie, 40% grechetto, 15% verdello, autres 5 %)
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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#86 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 4th, 2019, 7:37 am

I quickly sorted the Gambero Rosso Tre Bicchieri 2018 to have your feelings :
Some whites have already be mentionned in this thread, of course.
Some reds must still in the list, sorry ... (I do not perfectly know all the appellations).

ABRUZZO
Trebbiano d'Abruzzo 2013 - Valentini
Trebbiano d'Abruzzo Superiore Notàri 2015 - Fattoria Nicodemi
Trebbiano d'Abruzzo Vigna del Convento di Capestrano 2015 - Valle Reale

ALTO ADIGE
Alto Adige Chardonnay Lafóa 2015 - Cantina Colterenzio
Alto Adige Gewürztraminer Auratus Crescendo 2016 - Tenuta Ritterhof
Alto Adige Gewürztraminer Brenntal Riserva 2015 - Cantina Cortaccia
Alto Adige Gewürztraminer Nussbaumer 2015 - Cantina Tramin
Alto Adige Lago di Caldaro Classico Superiore Pfarrhof 2016 - Cantina di Caldaro
Alto Adige Müller Thurgau Feldmarschall von Fenner 2015 - Tiefenbrunner
Alto Adige Pinot Bianco Sanct Valentin 2015 - Cantina Produttori San Michele Appiano
Alto Adige Pinot Bianco Sirmian 2016 - Cantina Nals Margreid
Alto Adige Pinot Bianco Tyrol 2015 - Cantina Meran
Alto Adige Pinot Grigio Giatl Riserva 2015 - Peter Zemmer
Alto Adige Santa Maddalena Classico Antheos 2016 - Tenuta Waldgries
Alto Adige Santa Maddalena Classico Rondell 2016 - Glögglhof - Franz Gojer
Alto Adige Sauvignon Renaissance 2014 - Gumphof - Markus Prackwieser
Alto Adige Spumante Extra Brut 1919 M. Classico Riserva 2011 - Kettmeir
Alto Adige Terlano Sauvignon Quarz 2015 - Cantina Terlano
Alto Adige Val Venosta Riesling 2015 - Falkenstein Franz Pratzner
Alto Adige Val Venosta Riesling Windbichel 2015 - Tenuta Unterortl - Castel Juval
Alto Adige Valle Isarco Grüner Veltliner 2016 - Pacherhof - Andreas Huber
Alto Adige Valle Isarco Riesling Kaiton 2016 - Kuenhof - Peter Pliger
Alto Adige Valle Isarco Sylvaner 2016 - Köfererhof - Günther Kerschbaumer
Alto Adige Valle Isarco Sylvaner 2015 - Garlider - Christian Kerschbaumer
Alto Adige Valle Isarco Sylvaner Aristos 2016 - Cantina Produttori Valle Isarco

CALABRIA
Neostòs Bianco 2016 - Spiriti Ebbri

CAMPANIA
Caiatì 2015 - Alois
Campi Flegrei Falanghina Cruna deLago 2015 - La Sibilla
Costa d'Amalfi Furore Bianco Fiorduva 2016 - Marisa Cuomo
Falanghina del Sannio Janare Senete 2016 - La Guardiense
Falanghina del Sannio Svelato 2016 - Terre Stregate
Falanghina del Sannio Taburno 2016 - Fontanavecchia
Falanghina del Sannio Taburno 2016 - Fattoria La Rivolta
Fiano di Avellino 2016 - Colli di Lapio
Fiano di Avellino 2016 - Fonzone
Fiano di Avellino Alessandra 2012 - Di Meo
Fiano di Avellino Alimata 2015 - Villa Raiano
Fiano di Avellino Pietramara 2016 - I Favati
Fiano di Avellino Vigna della Congregazione 2016 - Villa Diamante
Greco di Tufo 2016 - Cantine Di Marzo
Greco di Tufo 2016 - Donnachiara
Greco di Tufo 2016 - Pietracupa
Grecomusc' 2015 - Contrade di Taurasi
Il Fric 2016 - Casebianche
Sabbie di Sopra il Bosco 2015 - Nanni Copè
Trentenare 2016 - San Salvatore 1988

EMILIA ROMAGNA
Romagna Albana Passito Scacco Matto 2013 - Fattoria Zerbina
Romagna Albana Secco I Croppi 2016 - Celli

FRIULI-VENEZIA-GIULIA
Collio Bianco 2016 - Colle Duga
Collio Bianco Fosarin 2015 - Ronco dei Tassi
Collio Bianco Giulio Locatelli Riserva 2015 - Tenuta di Angoris
COF Picolit 2012 - Livon
Collio Friulano 2016 - Russiz Superiore
Collio Friulano 2016 - Schiopetto
Collio Pinot Bianco 2016 - Doro Princic
Collio Pinot Bianco 2016 - Villa Russiz
Collio Ribolla Gialla di Oslavia Riserva2013 - Primosic
Collio Sauvignon Tiare 2016 - Roberto Snidarcig
Collio Sauvignon Ronco delle Mele 2016 - Venica & Venica
Friuli Colli Orientali Bianco Identità 2015 - Leonardo Specogna
Friuli Colli Orientali Friulano Liende 2016 - La Viarte
Friuli Colli Orientali Malvasia 2016 - Paolo Rodaro
Friuli Colli Orientali Pinot Bianco Myò 2016 - Zorzettig
Friuli Colli Orientali Pinot Grigio 2016 - Torre Rosazza
Friuli Colli Orientali Sauvignon Zuc di Volpe 2016 - Volpe Pasini
Friuli Friulano No Name 2016 - Le Vigne di Zamò
Friuli Grave Pinot Bianco 2016 - Vigneti Le Monde
Friuli Isonzo Friulano I Ferretti 2015 - Tenuta Luisa
Friuli Isonzo Sauvignon Piere 2015 - Vie di Romans
Lis 2015 - Lis Neris
Malvasia 2013 - Damijan Podversic
Ograde 2015 - Skerk
Ribolla Gialla Brut 2013 - Eugenio Collavini
Vintage Tunina 2015 - Jermann

LAZIO
Baccarossa 2015 - Poggio Le Volpi
Biancolella Faro della Guardia 2016 - Casale del Giglio
Frascati Superiore Eremo Tuscolano 2016 - Valle Vermiglia
Habemus 2015 - San Giovenale
Montiano Falesco 2015 - Famiglia Cotarella
Poggio della Costa 2016 - Sergio Mottura

LIGURIA
Colli di Luni Vermentino Costa Marina 2016 - Ottaviano Lambruschi
Colli di Luni Vermentino Lunae Et. Nera 2016 - Cantine Lunae Bosoni
Colli di Luni Vermentino Superiore Fosso di Corsano 2016 - Terenzuola
Dolceacqua Beragna 2016 - Ka' Manciné
Riviera Ligure di Ponente Pigato Albium 2015 - Poggio dei Gorleri
Riviera Ligure di Ponente Pigato Bon in da Bon 2016 - BioVio
Riviera Ligure di Ponente Pigato U Baccan 2015 - Bruna

LOMBARDIA
Extra Brut Farfalla - Ballabio
Franciacorta '61 Nature 2010 - Guido Berlucchi & C.
Franciacorta Brut 2012 - Lo Sparviere
Franciacorta Brut Arcadia 2013 - Lantieri de Paratico
Franciacorta Brut Museum Release 2007 - Ricci Curbastro
Franciacorta Brut Naturae 2013 - Barone Pizzini
Franciacorta Brut Satèn Soul 2011 - Contadi Castaldi
Franciacorta Dosage Zéro Vintage Collection 2012 - Ca' del Bosco
Franciacorta Pas Dosé 33 Riserva 2010 - Ferghettina
Franciacorta Pas Operé 2010 - Bellavista
Lugana Molin2016 - Cà Maiol

MARCHE
Castelli di Jesi Verdicchio Classico Lauro Riserva 2015 - Poderi Mattioli
Castelli di Jesi Verdicchio Classico Salmariano Riserva 2014 - Marotti Campi
Castelli di Jesi Verdicchio Classico San Paolo Riserva 2015 - Pievalta
Castelli di Jesi Verdicchio Classico San Sisto Riserva 2015 - Fazi Battaglia
Castelli di Jesi Verdicchio Classico Vigna Il Cantico della Figura Riserva 2013 - Andrea Felici
Offida Pecorino 2016 - Tenuta Santori
Offida Pecorino Artemisia 2016 - Tenuta Spinelli
Offida Pecorino Mida 2016 - Maria Letizia Allevi
Piceno Superiore Morellone 2012 - Le Caniette
Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico Superiore 2016 - Bucci
Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico Superiore Insolito del Pozzo Buono 2015 - Vicari
Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico Superiore Misco 2016 - Tenuta di Tavignano
Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico Superiore Qudì 2015 - Roberto Venturi
Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico Superiore Vigne Verdicchio 2015 - Umani Ronchi
Verdicchio di Matelica Cambrugiano Riserva 2014 - Belisario
Verdicchio di Matelica Mirum Riserva 2015 - La Monacesca
Verdicchio di Matelica Petrara 2016 - Borgo Paglianetto
Verdicchio di Matelica Vign. Fogliano 2015 - Bisci

PIEDMONT
Alta Langa Brut Zero Nature Sboccatura Tardiva 2011 - Enrico Serafino
Colli Tortonesi Timorasso Fausto 2015 - Vigne Marina Coppi
Colli Tortonesi Timorasso Ombra di Luna 2015 - Cascina Salicetti
Costa del Vento 2015 - Vigneti Massa
Dogliani Papà Celso 2016 - Abbona
Dolcetto di Ovada 2015 - Tacchino
Erbaluce di Caluso 2016 - Podere Macellio
Erbaluce di Caluso Le Chiusure 2016 - Benito Favaro
Gavi del Comune di Gavi GG 2015 - Cantina Produttori del Gavi
Gavi del Comune di Gavi Monterotondo 2015 - Villa Sparina
Gavi Vigna della Rovere Verde Riserva 2015 - La Mesma
Ghemme Vigna Pelizzane 2011 - Torraccia del Piantavigna
Marcalberto Extra Brut Millesimo2Mila12 M. Classico 2012 - Marcalberto
Moscato d'Asti 2016 - Paolo Saracco
Moscato d'Asti Canelli Sant'Ilario 2016 - Ca' d' Gal
Moscato d'Asti Casa di Bianca 2016 - Gianni Doglia
Nizza La Vigna dell'Angelo 2014 - Cascina La Barbatella
Roero Arneis Cecu d'la Biunda 2016 - Monchiero Carbone
Roero Arneis Le Rive del Bricco delle Ciliegie 2016 - Giovanni Almondo
Roero Gepin 2013 - Stefanino Costa
Roero Valmaggiore Vigna Audinaggio 2015 - Cascina Ca' Rossa

PUGLIA
Oltremé 2016 - Tenute Rubino

SARDINIA
Alghero Torbato Terre Bianche Cuvée 161 2016 - Tenute Sella & Mosca
Latinia 2011 - Cantina di Santadi
Vermentino di Gallura Superiore Costarenas 2016 - Masone Mannu
Vermentino di Gallura Superiore Maìa 2015 - Siddùra
Vermentino di Sardegna Stellato 2016 - Pala
Vermentino di Sardegna Tuvaoes 2016 - Giovanni Maria Cherchi
Vernaccia di Oristano Superiore Jughissa 2008 - Cantina Sociale della Vernaccia

SICILY
Astolfo 2015 - Assuli
Contrada Sciaranuova 2015 - Passopisciaro
Etna Bianco 2016 - Planeta
Etna Bianco Alta Mora 2016 - Cusumano
Etna Bianco Fondo Filara 2016 - Cantine Nicosia
Faro 2015 - Le Casematte
Malvasia delle Lipari Passito 2016 - Caravaglio
Mandrarossa Cavadiserpe 2016 - Cantine Settesoli
Passito di Pantelleria Ben Ryé 2015 - Donnafugata
Shymer 2014 - Baglio di Pianetto
Sicilia Bianco Maggiore 2016 - Rallo
Sicilia Catarratto Vigna di Mandranova 2016 - Alessandro di Camporeale
Sicilia Saia 2015 - Feudo Maccari

TRENTINO
Trento Brut Rotari Flavio Riserva 2009 - Mezzacorona
Trento Brut Altemasi Graal Riserva 2010 - Cavit
Trento Brut Conte Federico Riserva 2012 - Bossi Fedrigotti
Trento Brut Giulio Ferrari Riserva del Fondatore ’06 - Ferrari
Trento Dosaggio Zero Riserva 2012 - Maso Martis
Trento Opera Nature 2011 - Opera
Trento Pas Dosé Balter Riserva 2011 – Nicola Balter

TUSCANY
Al Passo 2014 - Tolaini
Altrovino 2015 - Duemani
Ameri Governo all'Uso Toscano 2015 - Podere San Cristoforo
Baron'Ugo 2013 - Monteraponi
Carmignano Riserva 2014 - Tenuta Le Farnete/Cantagallo
Carmignano Riserva 2014 - Piaggia
Morellino di Scansano Madrechiesa Riserva 2014 - Terenzi
Morellino di Scansano Ribeo 2015 - Roccapesta
Oreno 2015 - Tenuta Sette Ponti
Orma 2014 - Orma
Saffredi 2014 - Fattoria Le Pupille
Sapaio 2015 - Podere Sapaio
Siepi 2015- Castello di Fonterutoli
Terre di Pisa Nambrot 2015 - Tenuta di Ghizzano
Vermentino 2016 San Ferdinando
Vernaccia di S. Gimignano Sanice Riserva 2014 - Vincenzo Cesani
Vernaccia di S. Gimignano Tradizionale 2015 - Montenidoli
Vigorello 2013 - San Felice
Vin Santo del Chianti Occhio di Pernice Fonti e Lecceta 2011 - Torre a Cona
Vin Santo di Carmignano Riserva 2010 - Tenuta di Capezzana

UMBRIA
Adarmando 2015 - Giampaolo Tabarrini
Cervaro della Sala 2015 - Castello della Sala
Orvieto Classico Superiore Il Bianco 2016 - Decugnano dei Barbi

VALLE d’AOSTA
Valle d'Aosta Chambave Moscato Passito Prieuré 2015 - La Crotta di Vegneron
Valle d'Aosta Chambave Muscat Flétri 2015 - La Vrille
Valle d'Aosta Petite Arvine 2016 - Elio Ottin
Valle d'Aosta Pinot Gris 2016 - Lo Triolet

VENETO
Capitel Croce 2015 - Roberto Anselmi
Cartizze Brut Vigna La Rivetta - Villa Sandi
Conegliano Valdobbiadene Rive di Ogliano Brut Nature 2016 - BiancaVigna
Custoza Superiore Amedeo 2015 - Cavalchina
Custoza Superiore Ca' del Magro 2015 - Monte del Frà
Lugana Molceo Riserva 2015 - Ottella
Riesling Renano Collezione di Famiglia 2012 - Roeno
Soave Classico Calvarino 2015 - Leonildo Pieropan
Soave Classico Contrada Salvarenza Vecchie Vigne 2014 - Gini
Soave Classico Monte Carbonare 2015 - Suavia
Soave Classico Staforte 2015 - Graziano Prà
Soave Classico Superiore Vigeto di Castellaro 2015 - Cantina Sociale di Monteforte d'Alpone
Soave Superiore Il Casale 2016 - Agostino Vicentini
Studio 2015 - Ca' Rugate
Valdobbiadene Brut Nature 2016 - Silvano Follador
Valdobbiadene Brut Rive di Col San Martino Cuvée del Fondatore Graziano Merotto 2016 - Merotto
Valdobbiadene Brut Rive San Pietro di Barbozza Motus Vitae 2015 - Bortolomiol
Valdobbiadene Extra Dry Giustino B. 2016 - Ruggeri & C.
Valdobbiadene Rive di Colbertaldo Asciutto Vigneto Giardino 2016 - Adami
www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr

gianni_c
Posts: 4
Joined: April 12th, 2019, 3:24 am

Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#87 Post by gianni_c » April 14th, 2019, 3:24 pm

dcornutt wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 5:20 pm
Anything from Miani.
Valentini and Pepe Trebbiano d'Abruzzo.
good choice. Write me if you need some old wines of valentini and pepe
C @ r u l l 0

Laurent Gibet
Posts: 621
Joined: May 1st, 2010, 9:48 am

Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#88 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 15th, 2019, 1:55 am

Btw, the Valentini white 2007 is the best italian wine I ever tasted ...

I also tasted interesting Pepe's whites with Chiara. They may be fragile ...
www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr

dbailey
Posts: 3546
Joined: September 7th, 2009, 8:44 am

Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#89 Post by dbailey » April 15th, 2019, 3:12 am

Laurent Gibet wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 7:17 am
Joel S Morris wrote:
April 4th, 2019, 6:59 am
Don't believe that I noted anyone mention Orvieto. The 12 Barberani Orvieto Classico Luigi & Giovanna was fabulous.
Joel,

Thank you for your proposition.

In my archives :

Italie (Ombrie) - Domaine Castello della Sala : Orvieto "San Giovanni della Sala" 2012 (drunk in 2014)
(Grechetto, Procanico et un peu de Pinot blanc et de Viognier)
Robe paille, claire, légèrement verte.
Ambivalence pourtant cohérente entre fraîcheur presque végétale (citron, fleurs blanches, feuilles froissées) et maturité exotique (abricot, mangue). Bouche séveuse, charnue, fine, salivante, d’équilibre digeste, entre maturité, plénitude et fraîcheur saline. Forte ressemblance avec un vin galicien à base d’albarino (Rias Baixas). Fruité, littoral, entraînant. Une notable réussite.
Analyse potentiellement plus critique dans le tour de table, avec un vin jugé correct mais linéaire, consensuel, plus commercial que réellement intéressant.

Italie : Orvieto Classico - Marchesi Antinori "Campogrande" 2009 (drunk in 2012)
(40% procanino soit trebbiano de Ombrie, 40% grechetto, 15% verdello, autres 5 %)
Some of the aged Orvietos I had whilst staying there 2 years ago were absolutely thrilling wines. Up there with some of the top GC white burgs and german rieslings in complexity. Very hard to find overseas though.
Dan

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Re: What are your top italian whites ?

#90 Post by Laurent Gibet » April 15th, 2019, 4:42 am

Orvieto Classico Superiore Il Bianco 2016 - Decugnano dei Barbi is listed above (gamberorosso)

Other names ?
www.invinoveritastoulouse.fr

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Markus S
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Re: Well..

#91 Post by Markus S » April 15th, 2019, 5:16 am

Tom DeBiase wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 pm
TomHill wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 9:22 am
John Kight wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 8:18 am


Honestly, when I drink these wines I have no idea what the actual maceration time was. Skin contact wines have certain taste characteristic, and I always assume that the stronger that characteristic, the longer the skin contact must have been. My objection/concern is that I find that as wines acquire more of this skin-contact flavour, they tend to taste more and more similar to one another. It may be that I just haven't had enough of them (though I've probably tasted 20-30) to be able to distinguish between them. (As per your rose/CdP analogy above, I can certainly imagine an inexperienced red-wine drinker saying that all reds taste too much alike.) My favourite of the orange wines have been Paolo Bea's Santa Chiara (a top favourite, as it's very elegant for this category), Coenobium (mentioned above), Cos Pithos Bianco, Gravner wines generally (though they are far too expensive), Vodopivec Vitovska, the Zidarich Ribolla Gialla, and the Movia wines (which I adore).
Well, I guess I agree w/ Otto's comment...to an extent. But also w/ John's take as well.
I've been tasting as many skin-contact whites as I can. Depending (somewhat) on the length of skin-contact, they have a distinct character that I refer to as "phenolic". A sort of
savory/saline character. Sometimes/oftentimes it can dominate the wine to the extent that varietal character is sublimed, at least varietal character as I recognize. Sort like heavy
botrytis, with its peachy/apricotty character, can dominate a wine at the expense of the varietal character..at least varietal character as I recognize it. I've had Navarro R & GWT
TBA's side by side and danged if I can identify any varietal character in them.

This "phenolic" character tends to be more dominate with the longer the skin-contact...but not always. I've had skin-contact whites w/ only a few days of maceration
that are dominated by the phenolics. And I've had skin-contact whites w/ month or more skin-contact in which the "phenolic" character is not dominate.
When it comes to skin-contact whites, I tend to like the ones that are not all about "phenolic" character...ones that tend to have other things, mostly fruit/varietal character
in them. This seems to be when the skin-contact time is less. But not always. These wines tend to be more balanced and not as tannic on the palate.
One that I particularly like is SamBilbro's Cortese. It is made by harvesting the sun-exposed grapes and making via skin-contact. The shaded Cortese grapes are made conventionally.
These two lots are then blended to achieve a wine that has a nice blend of phenolic character and ripe fruit.
A recent skin-contact white that blew me away was the SandiSkerk Ograde '16. It had 2 weeks of skin-contact, post-fermentation. I was expecting it to be dominated by the
phenolics. It was not and showed that nice balance between skin-contact phenolics and lush/ripe fruit. A fantastic skin-contact white I thought...one of the best.

Another aspect is how these skin-contact whites age. Certainly the phenolics send them on a rather uncertain ageing trajectory. I've had some very strongly phenolic whites
that, with age, evolved into a very/very exotic wine. But not something you would recognize as a well-aged Vitovska, say. I'm not very good at predicting how these skin-contact
whites are going to evolve. Need to take more data points, I guess.
Tom
Otto, John, Tom, very good questions and thoughts on skin fermented whites and similar to mine. I have have asked some winemakers about their winemaking technique in regards to skin fermented whites. Will post a reply when I hear from them.

Tom
I'll chime in here and add to the quotations: most skin-contact whites taste more alike than not and I doubt it's much of the winemaking making up the difference. I think it's more attributable to the length of maceration and perhaps the amount of these incorporated into the final brew (some winemakers may use only a small percentage into their final blend, but when you use 100% skin contact it really does obscure differences).
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Tom DeBiase
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Re: Well..

#92 Post by Tom DeBiase » April 15th, 2019, 1:34 pm

Markus S wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 5:16 am
Tom DeBiase wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 pm
TomHill wrote:
April 3rd, 2019, 9:22 am


Well, I guess I agree w/ Otto's comment...to an extent. But also w/ John's take as well.
I've been tasting as many skin-contact whites as I can. Depending (somewhat) on the length of skin-contact, they have a distinct character that I refer to as "phenolic". A sort of
savory/saline character. Sometimes/oftentimes it can dominate the wine to the extent that varietal character is sublimed, at least varietal character as I recognize. Sort like heavy
botrytis, with its peachy/apricotty character, can dominate a wine at the expense of the varietal character..at least varietal character as I recognize it. I've had Navarro R & GWT
TBA's side by side and danged if I can identify any varietal character in them.

This "phenolic" character tends to be more dominate with the longer the skin-contact...but not always. I've had skin-contact whites w/ only a few days of maceration
that are dominated by the phenolics. And I've had skin-contact whites w/ month or more skin-contact in which the "phenolic" character is not dominate.
When it comes to skin-contact whites, I tend to like the ones that are not all about "phenolic" character...ones that tend to have other things, mostly fruit/varietal character
in them. This seems to be when the skin-contact time is less. But not always. These wines tend to be more balanced and not as tannic on the palate.
One that I particularly like is SamBilbro's Cortese. It is made by harvesting the sun-exposed grapes and making via skin-contact. The shaded Cortese grapes are made conventionally.
These two lots are then blended to achieve a wine that has a nice blend of phenolic character and ripe fruit.
A recent skin-contact white that blew me away was the SandiSkerk Ograde '16. It had 2 weeks of skin-contact, post-fermentation. I was expecting it to be dominated by the
phenolics. It was not and showed that nice balance between skin-contact phenolics and lush/ripe fruit. A fantastic skin-contact white I thought...one of the best.

Another aspect is how these skin-contact whites age. Certainly the phenolics send them on a rather uncertain ageing trajectory. I've had some very strongly phenolic whites
that, with age, evolved into a very/very exotic wine. But not something you would recognize as a well-aged Vitovska, say. I'm not very good at predicting how these skin-contact
whites are going to evolve. Need to take more data points, I guess.
Tom
Otto, John, Tom, very good questions and thoughts on skin fermented whites and similar to mine. I have have asked some winemakers about their winemaking technique in regards to skin fermented whites. Will post a reply when I hear from them.

Tom
I'll chime in here and add to the quotations: most skin-contact whites taste more alike than not and I doubt it's much of the winemaking making up the difference. I think it's more attributable to the length of maceration and perhaps the amount of these incorporated into the final brew (some winemakers may use only a small percentage into their final blend, but when you use 100% skin contact it really does obscure differences).
While I agree that skin fermented whites are certainly different than the "perceived norm" of a grape variety I hesitate to use the word obscure and would rather say it's character is altered. May seem like semantics but like all wines it depends on what you taste. Last night I spoke with Winemaker Evan Lewandowski who makes natural wines and skin fermented white wine is among the line up. His Ruth Lewandowski 2015 Chilion Cuvee Zero Cortese was 6 months on skins yet was super expressive, refined and one of my top wines from the Seven % Solution Tasting in 2017. Did it taste like Cortese that was directly pressed, no but it did have Cortese character. Which you might prefer is of course an entirely different question.

Evan mentioned that the final skin fermented wine depends on so many factors, grape variety, time on skins (bit like a bell curve), vessel used, rate of oxygen transfer etc etc. Evan starts with the science of the process and then follows up with the practical making of the finished wine. Really enjoyed speaking with him last night. BTW, it was at the April Idlewild Sunday School. Since we are talking about pushing boundaries and controversial wines, the theme and tasting last night was "Sardinia's Natural Resistance: The Wines Of Tenute Dettori, Panevino, and Meigamma. Nine wines none of which were the "perceived norms" but an interesting, educational and tasty experience. Obviously deserves its own thread :)
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