2018 Bordeaux.

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Alan Rath
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#201 Post by Alan Rath » April 26th, 2019, 7:49 pm

Having just drunk a couple of 82s today that were either just perfect, or still too young, I guess I won't be buying any 2018. Sigh.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#202 Post by YLee » April 26th, 2019, 8:45 pm

I'm considering LLC, Trotanoy and VCC.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#203 Post by Craig G » April 26th, 2019, 10:17 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 7:49 pm
Having just drunk a couple of 82s today that were either just perfect, or still too young, I guess I won't be buying any 2018. Sigh.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#204 Post by PCLIN » April 27th, 2019, 12:25 am

Alan Rath wrote:
April 26th, 2019, 7:49 pm
Having just drunk a couple of 82s today that were either just perfect, or still too young, I guess I won't be buying any 2018. Sigh.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#205 Post by Marc Frontario » April 27th, 2019, 3:30 am

The candy comment was more directed towards the general critic landscape today...from my perspective it just seems these high scores get thrown out there much more often.
My comment directed towards you was more for high scores of wines I think are a bit over the top, for example Pavie..coming back to '18 yes 24 wines in '18 at 98-100 I'd say is a bit excessive. (Isn't '18 a high alc. vintage?) which screams major pass to me.

Who knows, maybe the '18 are amazing...but like I said earlier, I never rated a wine 100 and I believe only a few close to a hundred...maybe I am just drinking shitty wines or a crappy grader...or both....its quite possible
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#206 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 27th, 2019, 4:06 am

Marc Frontario wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 3:30 am
...but like I said earlier, I never rated a wine 100 and I believe only a few close to a hundred...maybe I am just drinking shitty wines or a crappy grader...or both....its quite possible
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#207 Post by YLee » April 27th, 2019, 5:30 am

Marc Frontario wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 3:30 am
The candy comment was more directed towards the general critic landscape today...from my perspective it just seems these high scores get thrown out there much more often.
My comment directed towards you was more for high scores of wines I think are a bit over the top, for example Pavie..coming back to '18 yes 24 wines in '18 at 98-100 I'd say is a bit excessive. (Isn't '18 a high alc. vintage?) which screams major pass to me.

Who knows, maybe the '18 are amazing...but like I said earlier, I never rated a wine 100 and I believe only a few close to a hundred...maybe I am just drinking shitty wines or a crappy grader...or both....its quite possible
I have to agree with you. In my opinion, "pros" or "critics" should have higher standard than the average joe but their scores are always higher like they never had great wines before. Depending on the critic I subtract few points off their ratings. At the end everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#208 Post by Marc Frontario » April 27th, 2019, 5:55 am

YLee wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 5:30 am
Marc Frontario wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 3:30 am
The candy comment was more directed towards the general critic landscape today...from my perspective it just seems these high scores get thrown out there much more often.
My comment directed towards you was more for high scores of wines I think are a bit over the top, for example Pavie..coming back to '18 yes 24 wines in '18 at 98-100 I'd say is a bit excessive. (Isn't '18 a high alc. vintage?) which screams major pass to me.

Who knows, maybe the '18 are amazing...but like I said earlier, I never rated a wine 100 and I believe only a few close to a hundred...maybe I am just drinking shitty wines or a crappy grader...or both....its quite possible
I have to agree with you. In my opinion, "pros" or "critics" should have higher standard than the average joe but their scores are always higher like they never had great wines before. Depending on the critic I subtract few points off their ratings. At the end everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#209 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 27th, 2019, 6:53 am

I am going to buy my usual 3 magnums of VCC, Figeac and Ducru, assuming they come out at 2016 prices.

Otherwise, I tasted 2016 Mouton and it was magnificent, so will use any money slated for 2018 on buying some more. This may be one of the greatest and most complete young wines I have ever tasted.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#210 Post by Dinesh Goyal » April 27th, 2019, 7:45 pm

I am planning to buy 2018 future mostly because of its symbolic value. It is the birth year of our twins. So far have shortlisted the following wines. Waiting for the prices:
Leoville Las Cases
Pichon Lalande
VCC
Trotanoy
Cos
Ducru
Lafite
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#211 Post by Sh@n A » April 27th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Ugh so jealous Dinesh. Of your twins. Are you going to get a 6L for them to split on their 40th?
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#212 Post by Dinesh Goyal » April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm

Haha.

Just to be clear, not buying all of them.

More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#213 Post by C Chen » April 27th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm
More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#214 Post by Marc Frontario » April 28th, 2019, 3:11 am

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Haha.

Just to be clear, not buying all of them.

More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#215 Post by Francois Olivier » April 28th, 2019, 6:06 am

Another score from bettane et dessauves

https://www.mybettanedesseauve.fr/2019/ ... ns-league/

First place : las cases.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#216 Post by Dinesh Goyal » April 28th, 2019, 8:04 am

And results of 400 Liv-ex member survey.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#217 Post by Dinesh Goyal » April 28th, 2019, 8:05 am

If Rauzan Segla comes in under $80, that might be one of the better QPRs of the vintage.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#218 Post by YLee » April 28th, 2019, 9:17 am

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 8:04 am
And results of 400 Liv-ex member survey.
I'm quite surprised LLC is not near the top. From looking at the scores I would think it belongs there. I think this list doesnt accurately reflect their scores. How is Margaux on this list?
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#219 Post by David Glasser » April 28th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Haha.

Just to be clear, not buying all of them.

More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜
Smart. We’ve been drinking more of our daughter's birth year wines than she has. She’s just not that into it.

That said, a large format Sauternes might be appreciated for a birthday, graduation, wedding celebration.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#220 Post by C Chen » April 28th, 2019, 12:06 pm

David Glasser wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 12:00 pm
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Haha.

Just to be clear, not buying all of them.

More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜
Smart. We’ve been drinking more of our daughter's birth year wines than she has. She’s just not that into it.

That said, a large format Sauternes might be appreciated for a birthday, graduation, wedding celebration.
You two are lucky if you can do large format Sauternes! I'm the only one who loves them, so it's just 375s here.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#221 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » April 28th, 2019, 2:20 pm

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 8:05 am
If Rauzan Segla comes in under $80, that might be one of the better QPRs of the vintage.
Won't be even close.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#222 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 28th, 2019, 2:27 pm

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 8:05 am
If Rauzan Segla comes in under $80, that might be one of the better QPRs of the vintage.
The excellent 2016 can be found at $90, so that would be my guess on what 2018 will cost.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#223 Post by David Glasser » April 28th, 2019, 2:46 pm

C Chen wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 12:06 pm
David Glasser wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 12:00 pm
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 27th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Haha.

Just to be clear, not buying all of them.

More for me to open on their 18th for all the hard work I would have done by then 😜
Smart. We’ve been drinking more of our daughter's birth year wines than she has. She’s just not that into it.

That said, a large format Sauternes might be appreciated for a birthday, graduation, wedding celebration.
You two are lucky if you can do large format Sauternes! I'm the only one who loves them, so it's just 375s here.
Have to save the large formats for celebrations with large gatherings. For 2 or 4, it’s a 375 or 750.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#224 Post by DanielP » April 29th, 2019, 12:43 pm

Langoa Barton and Branaire Ducru out at about 15% premium to 2017, so looks to be about 2016 pricing.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#225 Post by Marshall Gelb » April 29th, 2019, 1:41 pm

Mont Stern wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 4:53 pm
Buy Burgundy instead. [winner.gif]
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/burg ... 47-404473/

We were in Burgundy this fall and whether it rivals 1947 remains to be seen but after a number of difficult vintages there were a lot of happy winemakers that we spoke with. I let their exuberance rub off and bought a barrel in the Hospice de Beaune auction after we came home. [cheers.gif]
[/quote


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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#226 Post by YLee » April 29th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Bought a case of Laroque. Would buy more because it's so cheap but I will wait and see LLC and VCC's pricing.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#227 Post by crickey » April 30th, 2019, 6:10 am

Other than Angelus, early prices are generally coming in higher than 2017 (surprising only because 2017 was overpriced) and 2016.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#228 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 30th, 2019, 6:39 am

crickey wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:10 am
Other than Angelus, early prices are generally coming in higher than 2017 (surprising only because 2017 was overpriced) and 2016.
Yes; that is still the remnants of the peasant mentality. Wine was often priced in a way to give steady income; hence the horrible 1984s were priced higher than ‘83 and ‘82.

Much less so now, but with 2017 being such a short crop, it could be priced high, and there would be some buyers who would take allocations.

Not much else has come out, Branaire and Batailly, but as you said at or close to 2016 levels. If you are in the market for wine, you have the choice of backfilling or buying 2018. I have decided to backfill, apart from wines I mentioned above which I buy most years.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#229 Post by Vince T » April 30th, 2019, 9:54 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 2:20 pm
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 8:05 am
If Rauzan Segla comes in under $80, that might be one of the better QPRs of the vintage.
Won't be even close.
The Liv-Ex survey had Rauzan Segla as the poll's #3 value wine, with Brainaire-Ducru taking the top spot. They also noted that GPL had the top spot for 8 years running before this year.
liv-ex 2018 value.PNG
liv-ex 2018 value.PNG (5.45 KiB) Viewed 1425 times
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#230 Post by DanielP » April 30th, 2019, 10:08 am

Vince T wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 9:54 am
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 2:20 pm
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
April 28th, 2019, 8:05 am
If Rauzan Segla comes in under $80, that might be one of the better QPRs of the vintage.
Won't be even close.
The Liv-Ex survey had Rauzan Segla as the poll's #3 value wine, with Brainaire-Ducru taking the top spot. They also noted that GPL had the top spot for 8 years running before this year.

liv-ex 2018 value.PNG
How can you determine value without knowing price?

That being said, in Bordeaux, generally everyone seems to raise/lower prices as more of a monolithic entity. 2016 release pricing seems to be about what the chateaus are going for, so perhaps the survey is assuming the same. Sociando-Mallet is out at about 2016 pricing.

I was ready to buy in if pricing were closer to 2015, but at this point I'll wait to taste this "heterogenous" vintage.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#231 Post by David Glasser » April 30th, 2019, 2:23 pm

What are Liv-Ex's criteria for "value" wines?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#232 Post by C Chen » April 30th, 2019, 3:03 pm

YLee wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 3:05 pm
Bought a case of Laroque. Would buy more because it's so cheap but I will wait and see LLC and VCC's pricing.
Just got six bottles of Laroque. [cheers.gif]
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#233 Post by Vince T » April 30th, 2019, 5:33 pm

David Glasser wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 2:23 pm
What are Liv-Ex's criteria for "value" wines?
The exact survey question is "List in order of preference your top five value wines from 2018 (value wines are wines with an expected release price of less than £600 per case)"

I suppose the respondents can interpret that how they want.

Survey summary here:
https://www.liv-ex.com/2019/04/results- ... ur-survey/
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#234 Post by David Glasser » April 30th, 2019, 5:42 pm

Thanks Vince, that really helps. Presumably those responding to the survey have enough experience to make an educated guess as to which wines will come out at under £600. Reasonable enough I think.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#235 Post by Jim Hartten » May 2nd, 2019, 5:19 am

Clinet out today and should price around $80 per I would think. Siran also out and should price in high 20s. A good low end qpr. [cheers.gif]

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#236 Post by crickey » May 2nd, 2019, 5:28 am

Lafleur is out, too. And at "bargain" prices.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#237 Post by Jeff Leve » May 2nd, 2019, 6:48 am

crickey wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:28 am
Lafleur is out, too. And at "bargain" prices.
Are you saying it’s expensive ?

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#238 Post by crickey » May 2nd, 2019, 7:14 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 6:48 am
crickey wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:28 am
Lafleur is out, too. And at "bargain" prices.
Are you saying it’s expensive ?
For me, yes. It was a joke, though. I recognize that the release price is below where comparable quality Lafleur sells for, so I would expect the price to rise quickly, but even the release price is well above what I would spend on a bottle of wine.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#239 Post by Jeff Leve » May 2nd, 2019, 7:17 am

crickey wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 7:14 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 6:48 am
crickey wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 5:28 am
Lafleur is out, too. And at "bargain" prices.
Are you saying it’s expensive ?
For me, yes. It was a joke, though. I recognize that the release price is below where comparable quality Lafleur sells for, so I would expect the price to rise quickly, but even the release price is well above what I would spend on a bottle of wine.
Fair enough that it’s a lot of money. But it’s more than fairly priced IMO. My guess is the wine will double in price by the time it’s released.

If you like Pomerol and want value, 2018 Clinet is out today for about $80 and it’s a steal for that price.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#240 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 2nd, 2019, 7:53 am

I have basically stopped buying Lafleur. Yes it is great, but too many other Pomerols close in quality at a fraction of the price. Not that it’s Lafleur’s fault.

Release price is $850, and there I would be a buyer, but as Jeff says, it will double when it comes to market. It has always seemed strange that the people who make the wine, care for the vines, worry about the weather, pay the bills etc make less profit than the middle man.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#241 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 2nd, 2019, 8:33 am

I asked for a little Lafleur, I don’t imagine I will get it as I’m out of the game since 2009.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#242 Post by Neal.Mollen » May 2nd, 2019, 8:47 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 7:17 am
If you like Pomerol and want value, 2018 Clinet is out today for about $80 and it’s a steal for that price.
Not an Alfert wine, I would guess
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#243 Post by Jeff Leve » May 2nd, 2019, 9:03 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:47 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 7:17 am
If you like Pomerol and want value, 2018 Clinet is out today for about $80 and it’s a steal for that price.
Not an Alfert wine, I would guess
No. Not for Afret. 2018 Clinet scored 98 from me. He needs wines scoring under 89 from me to like them :)

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#244 Post by C Chen » May 2nd, 2019, 9:26 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 9:03 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:47 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 7:17 am
If you like Pomerol and want value, 2018 Clinet is out today for about $80 and it’s a steal for that price.
Not an Alfert wine, I would guess
No. Not for Afret. 2018 Clinet scored 98 from me. He needs wines scoring under 89 from me to like them :)
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#245 Post by Jim Hartten » May 2nd, 2019, 9:37 am

As far as interest in the 2018s, I do see a number of the big U.S. stores already offering wines, so it may be that 2018 will attract more buying interest stateside than recent vintages like 2015 and 2016, but a lot will depend on wines continuing to release at reasonable prices. [cheers.gif]

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#246 Post by Dinesh Goyal » May 3rd, 2019, 3:23 am

On Lafleur, you can form your own view on how overpriced / fair prices that wine is. Quite unlikely one can buy it anyway given how heavily allocated it is. Unless one has been a previous buyer.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#247 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 3rd, 2019, 4:10 am

It is funny to think some small production Bordeaux seem to be marketed in the same way as Burgundy. Used to get my Lafleurs in the UK up to and including the 2015 vintage. The agent then stopped supplying my guy, and now I will have to pay the full agent’s mark up if I want the wine.

I happily bought VCC, and will buy again in 2018. Nobody needs Lafleur, but it seems enough people will pay the current tab.
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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#248 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 3rd, 2019, 4:15 am

I don’t see VCC as being stylistically very similar to Lafleur. Pricing for Lafleur and VCC went into orbit in 05. Both were ‘very reasonable’ before.

Very little Pensee in 18 it seems.

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Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#249 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 3rd, 2019, 4:20 am

C Chen wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 9:26 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 9:03 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 8:47 am

Not an Alfert wine, I would guess
No. Not for Afret. 2018 Clinet scored 98 from me. He needs wines scoring under 89 from me to like them :)
Savage!!
HAHA, and true. No Clinet for Alfert. I’m having a blueberry compote today on outmeal for my breakfast, don’t want that with my wine! Leve and I once did score the same wine a 93. It was one of those rare lunar eclipse moments I presume. His best work is in the upper-80s! [cheers.gif]

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

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Howard Cooper
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Location: Rockville, MD

Re: 2018 Bordeaux.

#250 Post by Howard Cooper » May 3rd, 2019, 4:38 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 4:20 am
C Chen wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 9:26 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 9:03 am


No. Not for Afret. 2018 Clinet scored 98 from me. He needs wines scoring under 89 from me to like them :)
Savage!!
HAHA, and true. No Clinet for Alfert. I’m having a blueberry compote today on outmeal for my breakfast, don’t want that with my wine! Leve and I once did score the same wine a 93. It was one of those rare lunar eclipse moments I presume. His best work is in the upper-80s! [cheers.gif]
What was the wine?
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

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