2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

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alan weinberg
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2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#1 Post by alan weinberg » March 21st, 2019, 12:23 pm

$20,002 . . . per bottle—but they only have one. Crazy Burgundy pricing abounds now. Put me on the sidelines, mouth agape.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#2 Post by Jay Miller » March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm

what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#3 Post by alan weinberg » March 21st, 2019, 12:31 pm

it’s new wine! Better! Cheapest I see on w-s pro is $4500.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#4 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » March 21st, 2019, 12:37 pm

I honestly still might buy if offered.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#5 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm
what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#6 Post by Kent Comley » March 21st, 2019, 3:42 pm

Yep Dujac CdLR almost $1K here, Rousseau Beze and Chambertin $2K on secondary market. I have recalibrated my sights. It is difficult for me to realise $2K value from a bottle.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#7 Post by Fred Bower » March 21st, 2019, 5:51 pm

Dujac CdLR is "honest retail" $375-425 here, with $500 not too hard to find. I netted some '16s but look at it as a "take it if offered" situation, not an allocation to expect every year. I have been getting some Dujac from my guy every year for the past four and quantities this year were higher, so maybe things are looking up (for me). Oddly, no Clos St. Denis, just Clos de la Roche from the pair.

I got to enjoy about 6 bottles of Rousseau back in the '90s. They were fabulous. No more in the cellar and no offers of any sense that I've seen since 2001.

Roumier got all screwed up when C&E changed their distribution algorithms. I used to get a sixer of Cras every year. I'm lucky to get a bottle of Village Chambolle or Clos de la Bussiere lately. Instead, I'm now getting Meo-Camuzet minus the top two unicorns. I go with the flow and hope for some good sips in the future.

Alas.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#8 Post by Dale Bowers » March 21st, 2019, 7:07 pm

The billionaires have chased out all the millionaires.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#9 Post by Tom Reddick » March 21st, 2019, 7:37 pm

Fred Bower wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 5:51 pm
Dujac CdLR is "honest retail" $375-425 here, with $500 not too hard to find. I netted some '16s but look at it as a "take it if offered" situation, not an allocation to expect every year. I have been getting some Dujac from my guy every year for the past four and quantities this year were higher, so maybe things are looking up (for me). Oddly, no Clos St. Denis, just Clos de la Roche from the pair.

I got to enjoy about 6 bottles of Rousseau back in the '90s. They were fabulous. No more in the cellar and no offers of any sense that I've seen since 2001.

Roumier got all screwed up when C&E changed their distribution algorithms. I used to get a sixer of Cras every year. I'm lucky to get a bottle of Village Chambolle or Clos de la Bussiere lately. Instead, I'm now getting Meo-Camuzet minus the top two unicorns. I go with the flow and hope for some good sips in the future.

Alas.

fred
Here in Texas at "honest retail" (I like that expression), 2016 Dujac Clos de la Roche, Clos St. Denis and Vosne Malconsorts were all under $400. I passed, but the wines are far more available than in the past which is very odd considering that the 85s have been setting auction records right and left lately.

Love your last paragraph- that is my story. I used to get 3-4 each of Roumier Musigny and Amoureuses every year and usually 6 of the rest that Diageo imported (ie not including Charmes or Ruchottes). But 2010 was the last year I saw any Roumier and it was the odd bottle- though at least Musigny was in that mix. Now I am told the wines are being released primarily in the major markets- no one is even trying to share them around.

And just like you Fred, I now focus much of my energy on Meo-Camuzet except for the Richebourg and Parantoux. Roumier and DRC would be nice- but Meo of late certainly offers the same thrills and promise. So I just consider myself lucky and go with it.

PS- to address the market issue more broadly, too much to post in detail- but I am seeing the signs of cracks in the current bubble. 2017 prices are not coming down from 2016, and we are going to go back to the old day, but a lot of the speculation and quick flipping (and less than "honest retailing") is starting to come under considerable pressure.

Recently, there was a secondary release of leftover 2015 DRCs for a start- along with some recent back vintages of even the top wines. And I am aware of at least once instance where leftover burgundies were offered by wholesalers at more than the retail of the wine's primary retail clients who had received and offered their full allocations.

What is unusual in this latest bubble is that all along the way, just about everyone has brazenly tried to cash in on market hype in some very obvious and sometimes outrageous ways. That is not going to last. The customers are walking away, and now a lot of retailers are walking away too. And when a retailer stops buying the cherries- it is a good opportunity to wonder whether the rest of a wholesaler's portfolio, the real bread and butter, is worth keeping around at the levels formerly necessary to get those cherries.
Last edited by Tom Reddick on March 21st, 2019, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#10 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » March 21st, 2019, 7:40 pm

Why do you skip the Richebourg and Parantoux?

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#11 Post by Tom Reddick » March 21st, 2019, 7:56 pm

BlaineRyanHunt wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 7:40 pm
Why do you skip the Richebourg and Parantoux?
Apologies if you were asking Fred and not me,

But for my part it is a question of quantity and price- and to some extent ultimate usefulness. The actual release price of those two wines is not all that far off from auction rate except for the very top vintages, and the wines are scattered such that most people I know get 1-2 bottle allocations. And these days I pretty much insist on 3s at the very least. Years of experience have taught me that hard lesson- these small production grand crus can go in all sorts of directions as they age, and having 1 or 2 is just too risky in terms of hoping to catch that magical moment.

And even if I could get 3 Richebourg- the cost of those 3 bottles at normal retail is more than I spend on full 6 packs of each of Echezeaux, Nuits Boudots and Nuits Murgers plus an extra tasting bottle of 1 of them to try at release. It is more of a premium than I want to spend- and while I have had the Richebourg and think it is marvelous, the Echezeaux is qualitatively just as good. Both are in the top ranks for their respective vineyards, and at my dinner table with the sorts of foods I tend to make- Echezeaux fits in more nicely than Richebourg. So a no brainer for me. YMMV.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#12 Post by paul hanna » March 22nd, 2019, 12:14 am

Kent Comley wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 3:42 pm
Yep Dujac CdLR almost $1K here, Rousseau Beze and Chambertin $2K on secondary market. I have recalibrated my sights. It is difficult for me to realise $2K value from a bottle.
Kent,

Dujac CDLR here now more like $1200 plus, and Rousseau is hitting $3k.....

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#13 Post by Ian Dorin » March 22nd, 2019, 5:03 am

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm
what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
I had the same reaction. Even $5K is a stretch with VIG included.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#14 Post by Howard Cooper » March 22nd, 2019, 5:14 am

Last night I tasted seven villages level Burgundies - all delicious. Meo-Camuzet 2015 NSG, Rossignol-Trapet 2005 Gevrey Chambertin, Bachelet 2008 GC, Jouan 2010 GC Aux Echezeaux, Hudelot-Noellat 2005 Chambolle-Musigny, Cecile Tremblay 2011 CM and Felettig 2011 CM.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#15 Post by Fred Bower » March 22nd, 2019, 6:16 am

If I'm buying like Tom Reddick, I'm doing something right, even if accidentally. Richebourg and Cros Parantoux are the two Meo wines I don't get offered, so not even a calculation on my part. The Brulees is my highest-price purchase from the portfolio and I rationalize it as a baby Richebourg. I do have a fettish for great Echezeaux, but don't buy all offered due to budgetary constraints in most years.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#16 Post by Jay Miller » March 22nd, 2019, 6:22 am

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm
what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
wine-searcher shows the 2011 at $1300.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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alan weinberg
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#17 Post by alan weinberg » March 22nd, 2019, 6:38 am

Huh, I have pro and the cheapest is $4500.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#18 Post by David_K » March 22nd, 2019, 6:48 am

Jay Miller wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 6:22 am
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm
what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
wine-searcher shows the 2011 at $1300.
That's Mugnier, not Roumier.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#19 Post by Ian Dorin » March 22nd, 2019, 6:54 am

Jay Miller wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 6:22 am
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:28 pm
what sense does that make with earlier vintages selling on winebid for prices ranging from 1-5k?
What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
wine-searcher shows the 2011 at $1300.
I think you missed a zero. It says the last global offer price in February 2019 was $13,042

Unless I'm not seeing the same thing you are.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#20 Post by Jay Miller » March 22nd, 2019, 6:54 am

David_K wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 6:48 am
Jay Miller wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 6:22 am
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:12 pm


What vintage of Roumier Musigny can you currently buy for $1k?
wine-searcher shows the 2011 at $1300.
That's Mugnier, not Roumier.
And I'm an idiot. You're absolutely right.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#21 Post by Richard Albert » March 22nd, 2019, 8:25 am

Face it we are in wine wonderland in the time of fabulous wealth and micro productions. How many zeros?

Fascinating to imagine how the perceptions of something one might have never experienced and the resulting powerful desire can be formed, no? Grape juice with a lifespan. Let the games begin!

I think the market has flattened. A couple of weeks ago, two bottles of 1995 Roumier Bonnes Mares failed to sell at a major auction where listed for $6000-$9000). Anyone interested?
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#22 Post by RyanC » March 22nd, 2019, 8:28 am

Cheaper to fly to France and drink Roumier there.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#23 Post by Jayson Cohen » March 22nd, 2019, 9:19 am

Richard Albert wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:25 am
Face it we are in wine wonderland in the time of fabulous wealth and micro productions. How many zeros?

Fascinating to imagine how the perceptions of something one might have never experienced and the resulting powerful desire can be formed, no? Grape juice with a lifespan. Let the games begin!

I think the market has flattened. A couple of weeks ago, two bottles of 1995 Roumier Bonnes Mares failed to sell at a major auction where listed for $6000-$9000). Anyone interested?
Is that really flattened? It was $1500 or so just ~2 to 2.5 years ago. Then it doubled in about a year.

It’s very good wine. But it’s not that good.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#24 Post by Michel Linden » March 24th, 2019, 5:55 pm

I have only physically seen a Roumier Musigny once
last year in the wine shop near Rockerfellar Ice Rink
12 000 us from memory

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#25 Post by RyanC » March 24th, 2019, 6:31 pm

Triosgros has multiple vintages in the 2,000-3,000 euro range I believe (or at least did in June ‘18). Still not quite the steals they used to have — eg the 93 Rousseau Chambertin I had for 230 euro a decade or so ago.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#26 Post by alan weinberg » March 24th, 2019, 6:37 pm

Roumier only makes about one barrel of Musigny and as such, really can’t do selection of the best—it’s an all or none. So it’s not his best wine—Bonnes Mares is.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#27 Post by Kevin Harvey » March 24th, 2019, 6:39 pm

I remember when.....

...does that make me old?
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#28 Post by p@ulbortin » March 24th, 2019, 9:28 pm

I had a very small couple of sips of the 2001 Moose
that were disarmingly spectacular.

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#29 Post by paul hanna » March 24th, 2019, 11:06 pm

p@ulbortin wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:28 pm
I had a very small couple of sips of the 2001 Moose
that were disarmingly spectacular.
IMHO this wine was the best of the '01 Musigny's....

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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#30 Post by Tom Reddick » March 24th, 2019, 11:15 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 6:37 pm
Roumier only makes about one barrel of Musigny and as such, really can’t do selection of the best—it’s an all or none. So it’s not his best wine—Bonnes Mares is.
That is my experience. When it is on, the Musigny can be truly thrilling, but with such a small production and little room to pick and choose on grape selection, I have over time found the wines all over the map which can also make determining the best time to open a given vintage very tricky.

Given that reality, you really need to be getting at least 3-4 per vintage to hedge your bets. This is no wine to buy as a one-off, but that is now the reality for most buyers.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#31 Post by Tom Reddick » March 24th, 2019, 11:21 pm

Fred Bower wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 6:16 am
If I'm buying like Tom Reddick, I'm doing something right, even if accidentally. Richebourg and Cros Parantoux are the two Meo wines I don't get offered, so not even a calculation on my part. The Brulees is my highest-price purchase from the portfolio and I rationalize it as a baby Richebourg. I do have a fettish for great Echezeaux, but don't buy all offered due to budgetary constraints in most years.

Cheers,
fred
Nice you get Brulees- I don't get offered that one either. Appreciate your kind words, but to be honest it was a bit of luck for me. When I got hooked on Burgundy, I was very fortunate to have an honest merchant at hand who had a very strong relationship with Diageo. I had no idea how lucky I was and when the Diageo portfolio broke up there was a time when I thought I might not be bothering with Burgundy again.

Happily this same merchant, with his honest and sincere ways, was able to very quickly bring very fine importers like Jeanne Marie Deschamps more strongly into the mix, and thus we have Meo here in quantities that allow one to buy Burgundy the way it needs to be bought- in multi-bottle allocations and every vintage- for the best long term outcome.

For all my experience and history in this business- routinely chasing after good Burgundy in the secondary market is an exercise I have never been able to stomach given what I know about the real release prices of most wines and also the complete lack of reward in future vintages for being a loyal buyer right now. I have come to find being a happy Burgundy buyer really must go hand in hand with dealing with good merchants and importers on a long term basis.
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Re: 2016 Roumier Musigny for only . . .

#32 Post by Jim Anderson » March 25th, 2019, 5:03 am

Tasted the ‘07 from barrel. That’s my sole encounter with it. Enjoyable and unexpected.
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