Lieu-Dits

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RyanC
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Lieu-Dits

#1 Post by RyanC » March 20th, 2019, 9:40 am

I'm a sucker for special parcels within larger Burgundy vineyards, whether they have older vines, or are in a 'clos', etc. Some favorites are Roulot's Meursault lieu-dits, Niellon's Chaumees 'Clos de la Trueffiere', Pillot's Vergers 'Clos St. Marc', Pousse's '60 Ouvrees' (in Caillerets), and Faiveley's 'Clos de Cortons'. A couple others of note are Bouchard's Chevalier 'La Cabotte' (which abuts Montrachet) and de Montille's Malconsorts 'Christianne' (which abuts in La Tache).

What else?
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#2 Post by Gerhard P. » March 20th, 2019, 11:31 am

RyanC wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
I'm a sucker for special parcels within larger Burgundy vineyards, whether they have older vines, or are in a 'clos', etc. Some favorites are Roulot's Meursault lieu-dits, Niellon's Chaumees 'Clos de la Trueffiere', Pillot's Vergers 'Clos St. Marc', Pousse's '60 Ouvrees' (in Caillerets), and Faiveley's 'Clos de Cortons'. A couple others of note are Bouchard's Chevalier 'La Cabotte' (which abuts Montrachet) and de Montille's Malconsorts 'Christianne' (which abuts in La Tache).

What else?
Montille´s Christianne is no lieu-dit, only a special name (of his) for the Malconsorts parcel closer to La Tâche.


Clos Vougeot "Le Grand Maupertui" Anne GROS and Michel GROS
Clos de Ruchottes (-Chambertin) by Rousseau
some more ...
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#3 Post by c fu » March 20th, 2019, 11:35 am

Roulot's clos de boucheres is sick.

Are you just speaking of 1er/gc lieu dits? Parcels within parcels?
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#4 Post by Mike Grammer » March 20th, 2019, 1:03 pm

None of the Luchets, Meix Chavaux or Vireuils take a back seat to very much either.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#5 Post by Kris Patten » March 20th, 2019, 1:10 pm

Les Rognets and Renardes within Corton and Les Demoiselles within Chevalier, Les Pucelles within Les Pucelles ironically and in Pommard Clos des Epeneaux and Grand Epenots.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#6 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » March 20th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Bon Batons, Clos Prieur, Les Ancengenieres

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#7 Post by p@ulbortin » March 20th, 2019, 4:36 pm

Clos Des Perrières

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#8 Post by M. Meer » March 20th, 2019, 6:22 pm

Off the top of my head, in Beaune, there's Vignes de l'Enfant Jesus (Greves) and Clos Des Ursules (Vignes Franches). In Savigny, La Bataillere (Vergelesses) and Dominode (Haut Jarrons). For white, there's Les Fairendes (Morgeot).
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#9 Post by chetkern » March 20th, 2019, 8:36 pm

Clos de Chevalier
Clos de Pucelles
Clos de Caillerets
Clos de la Garenne
Clos de Chapelle
Clos de Bussieres
Clos de Marechale
Chateau Gris
Corton Grancey
Clos de vigne au Saint
Clos and Château de Ducs
Clos de Urseles
Clos de Mouches
Clos de Commaraine
Clos Sorbes
Clos de Mazeray
Clos de Santenots
Clos Prieur
Clos Salomon
Moutonne
Clos de Hospices
Clos de mieux de ouches
Clos de Varoilles
Clos de Corvees

Amongst many others

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#10 Post by Mark C Johnson » March 21st, 2019, 12:50 am

chetkern wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 8:36 pm
Clos de Chevalier
Clos de Pucelles
Clos de Caillerets
Clos de la Garenne
Clos de Chapelle
Clos de Bussieres
Clos de Marechale
Chateau Gris
Corton Grancey
Clos de vigne au Saint
Clos and Château de Ducs
Clos de Urseles
Clos de Mouches
Clos de Commaraine
Clos Sorbes
Clos de Mazeray
Clos de Santenots
Clos Prieur
Clos Salomon
Moutonne
Clos de Hospices
Clos de mieux de ouches
Clos de Varoilles
Clos de Corvees

Amongst many others
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#11 Post by Gerhard P. » March 21st, 2019, 10:14 am

chetkern wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 8:36 pm
Clos de Chevalier
Clos de Pucelles
Clos de Caillerets
Clos de la Garenne
Clos de Chapelle
Clos de Bussieres
Clos de Marechale
Chateau Gris
Corton Grancey
Clos de vigne au Saint
Clos and Château de Ducs
Clos de Urseles
Clos de Mouches
Clos de Commaraine
Clos Sorbes
Clos de Mazeray
Clos de Santenots
Clos Prieur
Clos Salomon
Moutonne
Clos de Hospices
Clos de mieux de ouches
Clos de Varoilles
Clos de Corvees

Amongst many others
These are (mostly) not special lieu-dits within a larger Cru, but Premier Cru or Village sites themselves ... not what I understand the question was at ...
not everything called "Clos" is a lieu-dit ...
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#12 Post by Dennis Borczon » March 21st, 2019, 10:28 am

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, which lieu dits actually reflect a different climat within a vineyard, and which are just tradition oriented or singled out because of owner or other reasons? (after all the term lieu dit just translates to "named place".)

And if due to climat reasons, how are they different? ..Gotta love completely irrational and beautiful things.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#13 Post by alan weinberg » March 21st, 2019, 12:35 pm

Bouchard’s Cabottes is, I believe, in and not near Montrachet. They are trying to get it reclassified as Montrachet. Weird.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#14 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » March 21st, 2019, 1:20 pm

c fu wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 11:35 am
Roulot's clos de boucheres is sick.
Recently did a vertical of it and they were quite disappointing especially for the tariff.

Maybe a root day.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#15 Post by c fu » March 21st, 2019, 1:30 pm

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:20 pm
c fu wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 11:35 am
Roulot's clos de boucheres is sick.
Recently did a vertical of it and they were quite disappointing especially for the tariff.

Maybe a root day.
What vintages for the vert?
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#16 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » March 21st, 2019, 1:54 pm

c fu wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:30 pm
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:20 pm
c fu wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 11:35 am
Roulot's clos de boucheres is sick.
Recently did a vertical of it and they were quite disappointing especially for the tariff.

Maybe a root day.
What vintages for the vert?
2010-2015
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#17 Post by c fu » March 21st, 2019, 2:41 pm

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:54 pm
c fu wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:30 pm
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 1:20 pm


Recently did a vertical of it and they were quite disappointing especially for the tariff.

Maybe a root day.
What vintages for the vert?
2010-2015
Interesting! Love the wines and that intense acidity with clean fruit.

I’ll blame a potential root day :D
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#18 Post by Larry Link » March 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am

RyanC wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
I'm a sucker for special parcels within larger Burgundy vineyards, whether they have older vines, or are in a 'clos', etc.

What else?
Colin-Deleger owns the enclave known as Les Demoiselles, which consists of the first 30 rows on the Montrachet side, underneath the end of Chevalier. The wine is classified as a Puligny 1er cru, but WHEN it’s not Pre-moxed can deliver a grand cru experience.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#19 Post by RyanC » March 22nd, 2019, 8:15 am

Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am
RyanC wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
I'm a sucker for special parcels within larger Burgundy vineyards, whether they have older vines, or are in a 'clos', etc.

What else?
Colin-Deleger owns the enclave known as Les Demoiselles, which consists of the first 30 rows on the Montrachet side, underneath the end of Chevalier. The wine is classified as a Puligny 1er cru, but WHEN it’s not Pre-moxed can deliver a grand cru experience.
Interesting -- that's exactly the sort of quirk that makes Burgundy the best.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#20 Post by Larry Link » March 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am

RyanC wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:15 am
Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am
RyanC wrote:
March 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
I'm a sucker for special parcels within larger Burgundy vineyards, whether they have older vines, or are in a 'clos', etc.

What else?
Colin-Deleger owns the enclave known as Les Demoiselles, which consists of the first 30 rows on the Montrachet side, underneath the end of Chevalier. The wine is classified as a Puligny 1er cru, but WHEN it’s not Pre-moxed can deliver a grand cru experience.
Interesting -- that's exactly the sort of quirk that makes Burgundy the best.
Agreed. The vines technically are in the Puligny-Montrachet Le Cailleret vineyard, but he's allowed to market the wine as Les Demoiselles and not Cailleret. As with most white burgs it is hard to find in the US. I picked up the 2014 version, and have plans to throw it into a blind flight against PYCM Chevy, Philippe-Colin Chevy and de Montille's PM Cailleret to see how it stacks up.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#21 Post by Gerhard P. » March 22nd, 2019, 3:24 pm

Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am
RyanC wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:15 am
Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am


Colin-Deleger owns the enclave known as Les Demoiselles, which consists of the first 30 rows on the Montrachet side, underneath the end of Chevalier. The wine is classified as a Puligny 1er cru, but WHEN it’s not Pre-moxed can deliver a grand cru experience.
Interesting -- that's exactly the sort of quirk that makes Burgundy the best.
Agreed. The vines technically are in the Puligny-Montrachet Le Cailleret vineyard, but he's allowed to market the wine as Les Demoiselles and not Cailleret. As with most white burgs it is hard to find in the US. I picked up the 2014 version, and have plans to throw it into a blind flight against PYCM Chevy, Philippe-Colin Chevy and de Montille's PM Cailleret to see how it stacks up.
To be precise, also a section of Chevalier-Montrachet - former part of Les Caillerets - is called Les Demoiselles ... owned by L.Jadot and L.Latour.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#22 Post by Larry Link » March 22nd, 2019, 4:44 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 3:24 pm
Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 10:48 am
RyanC wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:15 am


Interesting -- that's exactly the sort of quirk that makes Burgundy the best.
Agreed. The vines technically are in the Puligny-Montrachet Le Cailleret vineyard, but he's allowed to market the wine as Les Demoiselles and not Cailleret. As with most white burgs it is hard to find in the US. I picked up the 2014 version, and have plans to throw it into a blind flight against PYCM Chevy, Philippe-Colin Chevy and de Montille's PM Cailleret to see how it stacks up.
To be precise, also a section of Chevalier-Montrachet - former part of Les Caillerets - is called Les Demoiselles ... owned by L.Jadot and L.Latour.
Those wines are grand cru, and priced accordingly. The wine I’m referring to is a 1er cru.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#23 Post by Howard Camhi » March 23rd, 2019, 8:34 am

Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am
Colin-Deleger owns the enclave known as Les Demoiselles, which consists of the first 30 rows on the Montrachet side, underneath the end of Chevalier. The wine is classified as a Puligny 1er cru, but WHEN it’s not Pre-moxed can deliver a grand cru experience.
No reason to leave off Guy Amiot et fils if you're discussing PM Demoiselles.

Cheers,

Howard

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#24 Post by Gerhard P. » March 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am

Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 4:44 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 3:24 pm

To be precise, also a section of Chevalier-Montrachet - former part of Les Caillerets - is called Les Demoiselles ... owned by L.Jadot and L.Latour.
Those wines are grand cru, and priced accordingly. The wine I’m referring to is a 1er cru.
Yes, I know, but the question was about special lieu-dits, and a Chevalier Montrachel Les Demoiselles falls also into that category ...
(when mentioning La Cabotte)
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#25 Post by Larry Link » March 23rd, 2019, 11:58 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am
Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 4:44 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 3:24 pm

To be precise, also a section of Chevalier-Montrachet - former part of Les Caillerets - is called Les Demoiselles ... owned by L.Jadot and L.Latour.
Those wines are grand cru, and priced accordingly. The wine I’m referring to is a 1er cru.

Yes, I know, but the question was about special lieu-dits, and a Chevalier Montrachel Les Demoiselles falls also into that category ...
(when mentioning La Cabotte)
Got it. Curious if you know, is Demoiselles one contiguous area that spans both 1er cru and GC appellations?

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#26 Post by Gerhard P. » March 23rd, 2019, 3:10 pm

Larry Link wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 11:58 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am
Larry Link wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 4:44 pm


Those wines are grand cru, and priced accordingly. The wine I’m referring to is a 1er cru.

Yes, I know, but the question was about special lieu-dits, and a Chevalier Montrachel Les Demoiselles falls also into that category ...
(when mentioning La Cabotte)
Got it. Curious if you know, is Demoiselles one contiguous area that spans both 1er cru and GC appellations?
A good 100 years ago Les Demoiselles was a vineyard in Puligny-M. belonging to two sisters. Jadot bought the whole parcel from them and named it "the ladies".
The upper part was classified Grand Cru (Chevalier-M.) in the late 1930ies, the lower part only Premier Cru, part of Les Caillerets.
The Grand Cru part was later owned by L.Latour and L.Jadot - a 3rd parcel by Jean Chatron who moved soil from one section to another while replanting.
This was deemed illegal by the INAO, and this section was banned from any appellation, hence the small white strip in Chevalier-M. Les Demoiselles without any vines.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#27 Post by bruce curfman » March 24th, 2019, 10:03 am

Very interesting, Gerhard. Does Jean Chartron still own that parcel, as I know they sold off a good portion of their holdings over the years. If that section isn't allowed any appellation status, I assume it is essentially worthless. How many rows are you talking about?

The last couple of times I was in Puligny, there were 20 or 30 rows (I didn't count) ripped out immediately adjacent to Le Montrachet. Are those the Colin-Deleger or Amiot "Demoiselles" section of Cailleret?

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#28 Post by Gerhard P. » March 25th, 2019, 1:15 am

bruce curfman wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 10:03 am
Very interesting, Gerhard. Does Jean Chartron still own that parcel, as I know they sold off a good portion of their holdings over the years. If that section isn't allowed any appellation status, I assume it is essentially worthless. How many rows are you talking about?

The last couple of times I was in Puligny, there were 20 or 30 rows (I didn't count) ripped out immediately adjacent to Le Montrachet. Are those the Colin-Deleger or Amiot "Demoiselles" section of Cailleret?
AFAIC Chatron still owns a parcel of almost half an hectar Chevalier-M. - I´m not sure if it is entitled to be called Les Demoiselles. South of it is the small strip of illegal terroir, separating it from the Jadot and Latour LD-holdings, SEE BELOW:

Image

Sorry, I do not know which vines have been ripped out ...
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#29 Post by dcornutt » March 25th, 2019, 2:48 am

alan weinberg wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:35 pm
Bouchard’s Cabottes is, I believe, in and not near Montrachet. They are trying to get it reclassified as Montrachet. Weird.
When Bouchard purchased the block of Montrachet that small piece, now Chevalier Montrachet, near the wood shed (La Cabotte) was classified as Montrachet. I have heard all kinds of reasons but the best came from Luc Bouchard. He stated that the family felt the property was very good but didn't want to pay the taxes of Montrachet which were VERY high compared with Chevalier at the time. The piece is as good if not better than much in Montrachet.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#30 Post by Gerhard P. » March 25th, 2019, 5:55 am

dcornutt wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 2:48 am
alan weinberg wrote:
March 21st, 2019, 12:35 pm
Bouchard’s Cabottes is, I believe, in and not near Montrachet. They are trying to get it reclassified as Montrachet. Weird.
When Bouchard purchased the block of Montrachet that small piece, now Chevalier Montrachet, near the wood shed (La Cabotte) was classified as Montrachet. I have heard all kinds of reasons but the best came from Luc Bouchard. He stated that the family felt the property was very good but didn't want to pay the taxes of Montrachet which were VERY high compared with Chevalier at the time. The piece is as good if not better than much in Montrachet.
Don,
I don´t want to contradict you - just clarify the matter:
La Cabotte was never "classified" as Montrachet AC. In the 19th century the Puligny part of what was then called and sold as Montrachet was far larger (app. 10 ha), and (what is now) La Cabotte was part of that.
When in 1937 the Appellations were created La Cabotte was not classified as Montrachet but as Chevalier-Montrachet. I don´t know if it would have been possible to include it in Montrachet, but (maybe for tax reasons) it did not happen - similar to La Grande Rue in Vosne.

To be serious, I had all three Bouchard versions side by side three times (vintages 1997 2002 and 2007): La Cabotte is clearly different from both Montrachet and the regular Chevalier-M., lacking the fatness, body and length of M., showing pronounced minerality and a livelier acidity, but also more intensity and more exotic fruit than the regular Chavelier. However it is usually of high quality and better than some other (less great) Montrachets.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#31 Post by bruce curfman » March 25th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Thanks Gerhard. Now I see the strip in Chevalier you're referencing. I always wondered what the story was on that piece. But the section of Cailleret that has the vines ripped out must be most, if not all, of the Demoiselles section. I kind of thought that was pretty big news and wondered why I can't find any info about it. I'm certainly no insider, but I will be interested to see if it has been replanted when I go back later this year.

Also wondered what part is Colin-Deleger and what part Amiot?

Cheers,

Bruce

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#32 Post by Larry Link » March 25th, 2019, 12:58 pm

bruce curfman wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Thanks Gerhard. Now I see the strip in Chevalier you're referencing. I always wondered what the story was on that piece. But the section of Cailleret that has the vines ripped out must be most, if not all, of the Demoiselles section. I kind of thought that was pretty big news and wondered why I can't find any info about it. I'm certainly no insider, but I will be interested to see if it has been replanted when I go back later this year.

Also wondered what part is Colin-Deleger and what part Amiot?

Cheers,

Bruce
Colin-Deleger owns the first 30 rows immediately adjacent to Montrachet.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#33 Post by Larry Link » March 25th, 2019, 1:16 pm

According to the WineHog:

The appellation Puligny-Montrachet Les Demoiselles 1er cru is .60 ha.

The area is divided in three plots – the southern half (now divided in two plots) were originally owned by the Colin familiy, and divided between Michel Colin and his cousin Bernard Colin 1. But in 2007 the Bernard Colin plot was sold to Maison Michel Picard 4. The northern half of Les Demoiselles (0.30 ha) – on the border to Le Caillerets – is owned by Domaine Guy Amiot.

Cellar Tracker inventory shows that there are four recent bottlings of Puligny-Montrachet Les Demoiselles 1er cru:

Domaine Guy et Thierry Amiot
Domainee Colin-Deléger
Domaine Philippe Colin
Au Pied du Mont Chauve (Maison Michel Picard??)

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#34 Post by Larry Link » March 25th, 2019, 1:29 pm

The short history of Les Demoiselles, again courtesy of WineHog:

The 1er cru vineyard Puligny-Montrachet Les Demoiselles is according to the official records (cadastre) a part of the vineyard Puligny-Montrachet Le Caillerets.

The term Les Demoiselles is however used both for wines coming from the 1er cru Les Demoiselles and for the Chevalier-Montrachets made in the northern part of the vineyard.

In 1913 both Louis Latour and Louis Jadot acquired a 0,51 ha plot of Le Caillerets from the widow of Léonce Bocquet. These vineyards today carries the name “Les Demoiselles” in homage to the daughters of an early 19th-century Beaune General, Adèle and Julie Voillot, who were the owners of the vineyard and died without marrying.

In 1939 Louis Jadot and Louis Latour were able to get the plots on Les Demoiselle promoted to grand cru and included in Chevalier-Montrachet. In total 1.02 ha of Les Demoiselles was promoted to Chevalier-Montrachet on that occasion.

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Charlie Gierling
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#35 Post by Charlie Gierling » March 28th, 2019, 3:59 am

Strictly speaking, a lieu-dit is only what is mentioned here, right? https://cadastre.gouv.fr/
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Charlie Gierling
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#36 Post by Charlie Gierling » March 28th, 2019, 4:02 am

We tried to enter some of these plots / lieu-duits / parcels as "subvineyards" to https://weinlagen-info.de/#anbau_id=46
But I suppose a lot of them are missing or wrong. Please help to add and correct.
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#37 Post by Peter Chiu » March 28th, 2019, 9:36 am

Gerhard.....thanks for the posting of your thoughts of the 3 versions ( side-by-side tastings of 3 Bouchards of vintage 1997,2002 and 2007.

I did some side-by-side tasting of the 3 whites g-crus by Prieur ( CC; Chev and Monty) for the vintages in late 1990s and early 2000s. The result mirrored yours - Monty usual has more flat, body and length. But my personal best white wine was the 1999 Chev by Prieur....( which was opened side-by-side with the CC and Monty in the same evening on 2011/09/30. As the Chev 1999 just behaved perfectly and everyone around the table was just looking at each other and shaking out heads in awe. [drinkers.gif]

That being said.....all the other times, I preferred the Monty.

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Re: Lieu-Dits

#38 Post by Gerhard P. » March 28th, 2019, 10:05 am

Peter Chiu wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 9:36 am
Gerhard.....thanks for the posting of your thoughts of the 3 versions ( side-by-side tastings of 3 Bouchards of vintage 1997,2002 and 2007.

I did some side-by-side tasting of the 3 whites g-crus by Prieur ( CC; Chev and Monty) for the vintages in late 1990s and early 2000s. The result mirrored yours - Monty usual has more flat, body and length. But my personal best white wine was the 1999 Chev by Prieur....( which was opened side-by-side with the CC and Monty in the same evening on 2011/09/30. As the Chev 1999 just behaved perfectly and everyone around the table was just looking at each other and shaking out heads in awe. [drinkers.gif]

That being said.....all the other times, I preferred the Monty.
I agree with you generally, and it is absolutely possible that one prefers a Chevy to a Monty - simply when preferring more upfront lively acidity and minerality against the body, fat and sheer intensity of a top Montrachet. Moreover not all Montys are really top-examples ... there are (or were) a lot of negociant bottlings around - and not all are really top notch, and also not all proprietors bottle top class.
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Dan Kravitz
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Re: Lieu-Dits

#39 Post by Dan Kravitz » March 28th, 2019, 5:45 pm

"Roulot's clos de boucheres is sick."

I hope it recovers.

And speaking of back seat, there are some surprisingly fine wines made from 'Montre Cul'.


Dan Kravitz
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