SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
BLittle
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 626
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 11:48 am
Location: Beautiful Fresno CA

SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#1 Post by BLittle » March 15th, 2019, 1:52 pm

I fun read and i really dug Birichino's version:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/wine/articl ... oniclefood
Brett Cyril Little (AKA BC)

User avatar
M. Dildine
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21299
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 5:09 pm
Location: Alta California

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#2 Post by M. Dildine » March 15th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Great story Brett - thanks!
Cheers,

Mike

Richard Albert
Posts: 620
Joined: November 16th, 2012, 2:49 pm
Location: Southernmost NorCal Wine Country

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#3 Post by Richard Albert » March 15th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Very cool story, thanks for the enlightenment.
ITB

Richard Albert
Posts: 620
Joined: November 16th, 2012, 2:49 pm
Location: Southernmost NorCal Wine Country

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#4 Post by Richard Albert » March 15th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Very cool story, thanks for the enlightenment. Now I want to try some.
ITB

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#5 Post by larry schaffer » March 15th, 2019, 6:08 pm

It's great to see this Vineyard and this variety get some notice. I've been working with the variety for a couple years now and absolutely dig it. I'm not fortunate enough to get fruit from this revered sight, but I dig what I am able to produce with the fruit hat I get. That Bechtold fruit is pretty darned special though . . .

A few notes:

According to the TTB, the 'correct' spelling is Cinsaut - without an 'l'. When I bottled my first one in 2015, I spelled it with an L and it was approved. The last 2 years, when I've submitted my label in the same manner, they have said that I had to remove it.

One of the other names you CAN still use for this variety, according to the TTB, is Black Malvasia.

The berries are generally HUGE - imagine the largest table grape and you get the idea.

If you're looking for a wine with tannic structure, look elsewhere - it can have beautiful texture but because of berry size, it will rarely contain much tannin. I help to add structure by going 100% whole cluster.

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

User avatar
Cris Whetstone
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 10815
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 1:09 pm
Location: OC, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#6 Post by Cris Whetstone » March 15th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Thanks for the article. A terrific holding. I'm glad wineries have chosen to give it a spotlight.
WetRock

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true." - Francis Bacon

"I had taken two finger-bowls of champagne and the scene had changed before my eyes into something significant, elemental, and profound." - F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby

User avatar
Sean_S
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 512
Joined: July 10th, 2016, 9:30 pm
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#7 Post by Sean_S » March 16th, 2019, 1:36 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 6:08 pm
It's great to see this Vineyard and this variety get some notice. I've been working with the variety for a couple years now and absolutely dig it. I'm not fortunate enough to get fruit from this revered sight, but I dig what I am able to produce with the fruit hat I get. That Bechtold fruit is pretty darned special though . . .

A few notes:

According to the TTB, the 'correct' spelling is Cinsaut - without an 'l'. When I bottled my first one in 2015, I spelled it with an L and it was approved. The last 2 years, when I've submitted my label in the same manner, they have said that I had to remove it.

One of the other names you CAN still use for this variety, according to the TTB, is Black Malvasia.

The berries are generally HUGE - imagine the largest table grape and you get the idea.

If you're looking for a wine with tannic structure, look elsewhere - it can have beautiful texture but because of berry size, it will rarely contain much tannin. I help to add structure by going 100% whole cluster.

Cheers!
Did you drink the Birichino Cinsault I donated? It's a bit different than your version but I enjoy both.

Sean
CT: Seanwsmithm3
Summit Rd, Redwood Estates, CA

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#8 Post by larry schaffer » March 16th, 2019, 3:53 pm

Thanks and I did! Thank you . . . Very different but quite enjoyable.

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

TomHill
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: LosAlamos, NM

Great Article...

#9 Post by TomHill » March 17th, 2019, 2:51 pm

Another very nicely done article by Esther...one of my most favorite wine writers.
What's interesting is that they can pull 12 tons/acre off that vnyd. Most wine geeks
would turn down their noses at that kind of wine!! Of course...without bothering to taste it!!
I've liked Larry's Cinsaults that I've tasted. A grape that the glou/glou winemakers should be pursuing.
If there were any available.
Tom

Jorge B
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 237
Joined: July 29th, 2014, 9:57 am
Location: Miami, FL

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#10 Post by Jorge B » March 17th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Great article, thanks for sharing.
Jorge Bustamante

Little Wings
Chief Giving Officer

User avatar
Marshall Gelb
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2773
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 9:36 am
Location: Redondo Beach, California

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#11 Post by Marshall Gelb » March 18th, 2019, 9:18 am

Sounds fascinating B.C.! Save some for a football game next Fall......Sounds like a perfect tailgate wine!

Cheers!
Marshall [cheers.gif]
A quién tiene buen vino no le faltan amigos.

User avatar
Leonard Taylor
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 553
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 7:19 am
Location: Southeast US

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#12 Post by Leonard Taylor » March 18th, 2019, 2:27 pm

Interesting article. Early in my wine obsession I visited Cline Cellars and picked up this bottle which I still have today: https://pix.sfly.com/fSTYXS
(Sorry, I don't know how to post pictures without a link). I am sure it is probably gone by now but I can't part with it. At the time it was a very rare bottling for Cline and I don't believe they have made it since. I reached out to them recently and got this reply from Charlie Tsegeletos, the winemaker.

Cinsault is a Rhone variety that does well in warm areas and can be light in color and body. There is not much of it in California - a whopping 73 acres which might turn into about 20,000 cases statewide . Most of it is blended with other varieties and that is what we do with the very small amount of Cinsault that we harvest from Oakley.

It sounds like the wine was stored properly but it is a quarter century old so you can bet the fresh fruit now has more of a dried fruit character and some interesting aged notes like cedar or cigar box. It would be fun to try it with dinner and perhaps have a more recent version of another Cinsault.

I’d love to hear how it turned out.

Best regards,

Charlie Tsegeletos

Winemaker
Leonard Taylor

User avatar
B. Buzzini
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3793
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 7:08 pm
Location: Calif.

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#13 Post by B. Buzzini » May 26th, 2019, 11:42 am

larry schaffer wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 6:08 pm

A few notes:

According to the TTB, the 'correct' spelling is Cinsaut - without an 'l'. When I bottled my first one in 2015, I spelled it with an L and it was approved. The last 2 years, when I've submitted my label in the same manner, they have said that I had to remove it.



Cheers!
Turley still uses the "l"?

Image
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#14 Post by larry schaffer » May 26th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Buzz,

Pretty much ever bottling I've seen has spelled it with an 'l' - though the TTB insists that's not how it's 'supposed' to be spelled here in the US. Wineries can dispute this and file protests - and many do and succeed. Interesting indeed . . .

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

User avatar
brigcampbell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#15 Post by brigcampbell » May 26th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Or you can spell it "SinSo" LOL
  • 2015 Jessie's Grove Winery Cinsault SinSo - USA, California, Central Valley, Lodi (8/29/2017)
    This comes from the oldest vines on the property planted before 1900. Strawberry with very soft mouthfeel and not much tannic structure. Comes across a bit mushy compared to the 2012 which I really liked. Still good just not a standout.
    Image
  • 2015 Jessie's Grove Winery Cinsault SinSo - USA, California, Central Valley, Lodi (1/1/2017)
    This is always great and from a historic vineyard just adds to the pleasure. Not much is the way of structure, not flabby, but soft since the tannins are completely resolved. Dark plum fruit, garigue, light spice.
    Image
  • 2006 Jessie's Grove Winery Cinsault SinSo - USA, California, Central Valley, Lodi (6/13/2014)
    Book Club - my turn (Hatam - Mission Viejo): I love this wine. Very dark maroon color. Sweet cherry, tobacco leaf, earth, and coffee. Excellent.
    Image
  • 2006 Jessie's Grove Winery Cinsault SinSo - USA, California, Central Valley, Lodi (9/30/2013)
    Spice, herb, cigar, dark red fruit and dark plum make for a superior effort. (93 pts.)
    Image
  • 2006 Jessie's Grove Winery Cinsault SinSo - USA, California, Central Valley, Lodi (3/16/2013)
    Seriously good wine. Not much straight cinsault running around since it's commonly added into Rhone blends. Color is dark garnet, like a pinot. Nose is spice and red fruit. Significant complexity on the palate and a long finish. Tasted at dinner so I couldn't get granular on the note but Brooke is seeking out more. (92 pts.)
    Image
Posted from CellarTracker

User avatar
Drew Goin
Posts: 6463
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 4:45 pm

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#16 Post by Drew Goin » May 26th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Thanks for sharing this article, BLittle!!

I dug the additional comments from Brig, Leonard, & Larry, as well!!



• I suppose that a vine that produces a large-berried fruit would consequently yield greater tonnage-per-acre compared with other varieties, even if the bunch-to-vine ratio was reduced.

I wonder if vine age is as profound a factor in determining the quality of the wine when the proportion of juice-to-solids is lower, like in the case of Cinsau(l)t's big ol' fat grapes?


Cline Cellars'* Cinsault would probably sell well, if still offered today. Maybe the Carignan and Mourvédre satisfactorily fill the winery's niche for odd stuff...?


* Unrelated, but interesting: old tasting notes of Cline bottlings from the mid-1990's. Link
Last edited by Drew Goin on May 26th, 2019, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
brigcampbell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#17 Post by brigcampbell » May 26th, 2019, 3:14 pm

When we visited the winery I saw the vines. Surprised at the size, I was expecting big grarly heads like the zin all around that area and on the property.

Nope, much small than their zin counterpart.

User avatar
brigcampbell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#18 Post by brigcampbell » May 26th, 2019, 8:21 pm

Karma. Neighbors brought this over tonight. Freaky.
Attachments
20190526_192228_HDR.jpg

User avatar
brigcampbell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#19 Post by brigcampbell » May 26th, 2019, 9:37 pm

Back label
Attachments
20190526_213459_HDR~2.jpg

User avatar
G. Bienstock
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2626
Joined: December 29th, 2009, 6:32 pm
Location: Reno, NV

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#20 Post by G. Bienstock » May 26th, 2019, 9:42 pm

What is the ABV?
Glenn

Positive Rastaman Vibration

ITB 1999-2005

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#21 Post by larry schaffer » May 26th, 2019, 10:01 pm

I noticed the 2017 version of this is listed at 14.5%. Seems high for the variety IMHO . . .

Cheers.
larry schaffer
tercero wines

User avatar
B. Buzzini
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3793
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 7:08 pm
Location: Calif.

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#22 Post by B. Buzzini » May 27th, 2019, 8:23 am

larry schaffer wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 10:01 pm
I noticed the 2017 version of this is listed at 14.5%. Seems high for the variety IMHO . . .

Cheers.
Just had the 18 Turley...12.5%. Very translucent and bright fruited...wild berry, whole cluster, brambly...more of an easy drinkin, put a slight chill on, wine. Bought some at $20...a great summer sipper!
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#23 Post by larry schaffer » May 27th, 2019, 8:33 am

That's a great price, Buzz - and I completely agree that it's a fun, relatively easy to drink wine that is perfect for warmer months, and can even be served with a slight chill.

I've been pouring my 2016 in my tasting room, and it's always fun watching people view the lighter color and then taste the wine. For a relatively lower alcohol red, the wine can still possess quite a lot of complexity.

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

User avatar
B. Buzzini
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3793
Joined: April 20th, 2009, 7:08 pm
Location: Calif.

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#24 Post by B. Buzzini » May 27th, 2019, 8:48 am

larry schaffer wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:33 am
That's a great price...
Winery price!

Remember really liking your 15 Larry...what was the abv?
Meursault-head!

B. = Brian

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#25 Post by larry schaffer » May 27th, 2019, 8:59 am

B. Buzzini wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:48 am
larry schaffer wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:33 am
That's a great price...
Winery price!

Remember really liking your 15 Larry...what was the abv?
Buzz,

My 15 was about 12.0%. My 16, my current release, is listed on the label at 11.5% but is actually 10.8% (just didn't think anyone would believe me if I put that on the label!!!). That said, since it's 100% whole cluster, it is definitely not thin - such a fun wine to expose folks to (along with my Roussanne flirtysmile

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

TomHill
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: LosAlamos, NM

OhOh...

#26 Post by TomHill » May 27th, 2019, 9:13 am

larry schaffer wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:59 am


Buzz,

My 15 was about 12.0%. My 16, my current release, is listed on the label at 11.5% but is actually 10.8% (just didn't think anyone would believe me if I put that on the label!!!). That said, since it's 100% whole cluster, it is definitely not thin - such a fun wine to expose folks to (along with my Roussanne flirtysmile

Cheers!
Oh oh..Lary's going over to the dark side...joining up w/ the IPoB crowd. Soon SweetAlice will be
singing the glories of the Tercero Wines!!! [snort.gif]

User avatar
brigcampbell
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12445
Joined: April 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Re: SF Chronicle Article on World's Oldest Cinsault... In Lodi

#27 Post by brigcampbell » May 27th, 2019, 9:52 am

G. Bienstock wrote:
May 26th, 2019, 9:42 pm
What is the ABV?

The Michael David 2014 was
14.7 IIRC.

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 7521
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: OhOh...

#28 Post by larry schaffer » May 27th, 2019, 11:51 am

TomHill wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 9:13 am
larry schaffer wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:59 am


Buzz,

My 15 was about 12.0%. My 16, my current release, is listed on the label at 11.5% but is actually 10.8% (just didn't think anyone would believe me if I put that on the label!!!). That said, since it's 100% whole cluster, it is definitely not thin - such a fun wine to expose folks to (along with my Roussanne flirtysmile

Cheers!
Oh oh..Lary's going over to the dark side...joining up w/ the IPoB crowd. Soon SweetAlice will be
singing the glories of the Tercero Wines!!! [snort.gif]
It's always fun when I pour my Rose, my aberration, my Cinsaut and my Carignane for folks - they ask if I am in the 'low alcohol' movement. I then break out my Grenache at 15+% and say, politely, no . . .

I am of the belief that every variety has a range in which the varietal characteristics take center stage - and not 'winemaking intent'. Take Zinfandel, for instance - I have yet to have one under 13% (or more usually) that is 'interesting' and 'speaks of the variety'. It can be done, but then you give up 'varietal typicity' in the end IMHO.

Same is true with a variety like Cinsaut. It is light and fresh - and if you try to make it into 'something it's not', it loses its inherent characteristics and becomes just another red wine.

Cheers!
larry schaffer
tercero wines

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”