WSJ wine article

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Philip Ente
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WSJ wine article

#1 Post by Philip Ente » March 9th, 2019, 8:50 am

Any comments on the march 9 article discussing the evolution from one voice (Parker) to a degeneration of influences that include Lebron James and the Kardashians

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Re: WSJ wine article

#2 Post by Mark Christenson » March 9th, 2019, 8:59 am

I totally prefer the King James Version of wine criticism, augmented (if you will) by the exquisite tastes of the Kardahsians to tell me what to buy vs. the backwater “tastes” of some attorney.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#3 Post by John Morris » March 9th, 2019, 9:06 am

Mark Christenson wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 8:59 am
I totally prefer the King James Version of wine criticism, augmented (if you will) by the exquisite tastes of the Kardahsians to tell me what to buy vs. the backwater “tastes” of some attorney.
? I'm not following that. Wasn't Parker the King James Version?
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Re: WSJ wine article

#4 Post by Mark Christenson » March 9th, 2019, 9:12 am

I was actually going to delete my post but given you captured it in your quote, I’ll just say my post was way too much tongue in cheek (e.g., I wasn’t using King James Version to refer to an original, but rather playing on LeBron’s branding himself as King James), obliquely poking fun at too many aspects of wine criticism, social media influencers, and the ongoing argument/discussion over wine scores vs. reviews, etc. I do think taking wine advice from a professional athlete or a person who is famous for being famous is silly. Obviously LeBron and the Ks have their own opinions about wine (and LeBron apparently drinks some pretty good stuff) but I don’t think their skill and/or fame in non-wine-related pursuits somehow validates their opinions re: wine.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#5 Post by Julian Marshall » March 9th, 2019, 9:18 am

I'm not a WS subscriber, but I don't miss the one-size-fits-all era at all. It worked fine in the 80s, but we will be drinking the consequences of that particular hegemony for many years to come. The more the merrier, however cacophonous it can seem at times.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#6 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » March 9th, 2019, 9:23 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:18 am
I'm not a WS subscriber, but I don't miss the one-size-fits-all era at all. It worked fine in the 80s, but we will be drinking the consequences of that particular hegemony for many years to come. The more the merrier, however cacophonous it can seem at times.
Well said.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#7 Post by John Morris » March 9th, 2019, 10:25 am

Mark Christenson wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:12 am
I was actually going to delete my post but given you captured it in your quote, I’ll just say my post was way too much tongue in cheek (e.g., I wasn’t using King James Version to refer to an original, but rather playing on LeBron’s branding himself as King James), obliquely poking fun at too many aspects of wine criticism, social media influencers, and the ongoing argument/discussion over wine scores vs. reviews, etc. I do think taking wine advice from a professional athlete or a person who is famous for being famous is silly. Obviously LeBron and the Ks have their own opinions about wine (and LeBron apparently drinks some pretty good stuff) but I don’t think their skill and/or fame in non-wine-related pursuits somehow validates their opinions re: wine.
Ah, missed the reference.

I would just add that it's also unwise to take wine advice from someone is famous for being silly (which is how I read the bolded line the first time).
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Re: WSJ wine article

#8 Post by Nathan Smyth » March 9th, 2019, 10:44 am

Mark Christenson wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:12 am
LeBron apparently drinks some pretty good stuff
Well that would explain why he's about 20 or 30 lbs overweight this year and suffering from so many injuries.

Wine & Fitness are two mutually exclusive universes with pretty much zero overlap between the two of them.
.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#9 Post by larry schaffer » March 9th, 2019, 10:44 am

Though I can't read the article, I get the gist of it. And I think we need to think of this from multiple factors:

1) From the non-wine geek side, this may nor may not be a good thing. Too many voices make it difficult to figure out 'who to believe' and most wine consumers won't put the time in to research, etc . . . they just want 'an answer' . . .

2) From the geeky wine consumer's standpoint, so much has changed in the past decade. No matter how many folks want to admit it or not, everyone waited for RMP's reviews to be released, moreso than any other reviewer . . . and his reviews 'made' wines and wineries. Period. Nowadays, of course, things are different - and one can align one's palate with a specific reviewer due to choice - or with 'peer reviewers' via CT and the like.

3) From a wine producer's standpoint, it's a mixed blessing. When RMP was in his and it's prime, those scores 'moved markets' and there are many wineries these days that 'exist' because of scores received 'back in the day'. Now, it's more challenging to 'move markets' with a review - regardless of who gives it to you. Depending upon your target audience, WA scores still do matter, but not as much 'for the masses' as a WS or perhaps a mention in WSJ or Food and Wine in all honesty.

Interested in hearing 'open minded' opinions from others - and not just typical 'knee jerk' reactions . . .

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Re: WSJ wine article

#10 Post by Mark Christenson » March 9th, 2019, 10:47 am

John Morris wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:25 am
Mark Christenson wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:12 am
I was actually going to delete my post but given you captured it in your quote, I’ll just say my post was way too much tongue in cheek (e.g., I wasn’t using King James Version to refer to an original, but rather playing on LeBron’s branding himself as King James), obliquely poking fun at too many aspects of wine criticism, social media influencers, and the ongoing argument/discussion over wine scores vs. reviews, etc. I do think taking wine advice from a professional athlete or a person who is famous for being famous is silly. Obviously LeBron and the Ks have their own opinions about wine (and LeBron apparently drinks some pretty good stuff) but I don’t think their skill and/or fame in non-wine-related pursuits somehow validates their opinions re: wine.
Ah, missed the reference.

I would just add that it's also unwise to take wine advice from someone is famous for being silly (which is how I read the bolded line the first time).
Ha—not intended, but I agree with you!
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Re: WSJ wine article

#11 Post by GregT » March 9th, 2019, 10:56 am

larry schaffer wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:44 am
Though I can't read the article, I get the gist of it. And I think we need to think of this from multiple factors:

1) From the non-wine geek side, this may nor may not be a good thing. Too many voices make it difficult to figure out 'who to believe' and most wine consumers won't put the time in to research, etc . . . they just want 'an answer' . . .

2) From the geeky wine consumer's standpoint, so much has changed in the past decade. No matter how many folks want to admit it or not, everyone waited for RMP's reviews to be released, moreso than any other reviewer . . . and his reviews 'made' wines and wineries. Period. Nowadays, of course, things are different - and one can align one's palate with a specific reviewer due to choice - or with 'peer reviewers' via CT and the like.

3) From a wine producer's standpoint, it's a mixed blessing. When RMP was in his and it's prime, those scores 'moved markets' and there are many wineries these days that 'exist' because of scores received 'back in the day'. Now, it's more challenging to 'move markets' with a review - regardless of who gives it to you. Depending upon your target audience, WA scores still do matter, but not as much 'for the masses' as a WS or perhaps a mention in WSJ or Food and Wine in all honesty.

Interested in hearing 'open minded' opinions from others - and not just typical 'knee jerk' reactions . . .

Cheers.
Pretty much this.

On this particular forum, people have favorite reviewers but nobody is panting for anyone's scores at the high or low end. It's probably a better idea to focus on branding the product. Remember, people go into a store or restaurant and order a Pinot Noir or a Chardonnay often as not. As if one is pretty much indistinguishable from another. And with a hundred critics vying to be heard, it's pretty much just noise to the average consumer.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#12 Post by Ken Strauss » March 9th, 2019, 11:48 am

A really good article.
The headline gets the attention but the article is actually very informative. The author
names many good sources for wine reviews. She included CellarTracker which is for wine nerds but we knew that.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#13 Post by Al Osterheld » March 9th, 2019, 12:52 pm

From what I can tell, Parker would approve of Lebron's taste in wine.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#14 Post by WvanGorp » March 9th, 2019, 2:41 pm

Julian Marshall wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:18 am
I'm not a WS subscriber, but I don't miss the one-size-fits-all era at all. It worked fine in the 80s, but we will be drinking the consequences of that particular hegemony for many years to come. The more the merrier, however cacophonous it can seem at times.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#15 Post by Anton D » March 9th, 2019, 2:45 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:23 am
Julian Marshall wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:18 am
I'm not a WS subscriber, but I don't miss the one-size-fits-all era at all. It worked fine in the 80s, but we will be drinking the consequences of that particular hegemony for many years to come. The more the merrier, however cacophonous it can seem at times.
Well said.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#16 Post by Jürgen Steinke » March 10th, 2019, 1:08 am

I think the difference between the wine drinker and wine geek is important. All Wine Merchants active on the internet add scores. Usually the highest. The highest comes from Suckling most of the time. These scores probably influence wine drinkers. But not wine geeks. My experience is that many wine geeks are very confident and focusing on a certain wine style. Often their love is Burgundy and the wine style related to that area. This has certain advantages. Burgundy is maximal complicated with its countless subregions. Somebody familiar with all these microscopic vineyards is somebody in the know, an expert, a professor of wine. Which sets this person apart from the masses. And from the former leader of the masses. Robert Parker. It is a fine coincidence that Parker wasn't successful in Burgundy as he was elsewhere. Many normal wine drinkers were familiar with Parker, the wine expert. Due to the internet with tons of information the situation is very heterogene. But scores or medals still have importance. At least in Germany almost no internet wine shop is without scores medals or whatever. Even if the critic or organization is almost unknown. That's the Amazon trick. Its profane that goods with positive reviews from buyers sell good. Without any kind of recommendation its way more difficult.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#17 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » March 10th, 2019, 6:04 am

The finest wine shop in Orlando refuses to post a single note, score or critic's reference. The proprietor built his own following, has regular tastings, educational seminars and wine always flowing. The place is and has been a huge hit for 20+ years. He is almost always at the store, and is a super nice and extremely knowledgable wine guy. Reputedly he will only stock a wine that he has tasted.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#18 Post by Scott G r u n e r » March 10th, 2019, 7:50 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:04 am
The finest wine shop in Orlando refuses to post a single note, score or critic's reference. The proprietor built his own following, has regular tastings, educational seminars and wine always flowing. The place is and has been a huge hit for 20+ years. He is almost always at the store, and is a super nice and extremely knowledgable wine guy. Reputedly he will only stock a wine that he has tasted.

Tim's Wine Market
Sounds like a very rare bird. Contrast that with Total Wine, where employees taste nothing but have to pretend they are experts and the store highlights employees “favorites” which of course are selected based on what the store wants to move
//Cynic

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Re: WSJ wine article

#19 Post by Arv R » March 10th, 2019, 11:14 am

Scott G r u n e r wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 7:50 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:04 am
The finest wine shop in Orlando refuses to post a single note, score or critic's reference. The proprietor built his own following, has regular tastings, educational seminars and wine always flowing. The place is and has been a huge hit for 20+ years. He is almost always at the store, and is a super nice and extremely knowledgable wine guy. Reputedly he will only stock a wine that he has tasted.

Tim's Wine Market
Sounds like a very rare bird. Contrast that with Total Wine, where employees taste nothing but have to pretend they are experts and the store highlights employees “favorites” which of course are selected based on what the store wants to move
+1 and our course the staff favorites are all 'winery direct'
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Re: WSJ wine article

#20 Post by Mark C Johnson » March 10th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 6:04 am
The finest wine shop in Orlando refuses to post a single note, score or critic's reference. The proprietor built his own following, has regular tastings, educational seminars and wine always flowing. The place is and has been a huge hit for 20+ years. He is almost always at the store, and is a super nice and extremely knowledgable wine guy. Reputedly he will only stock a wine that he has tasted.

Tim's Wine Market
I enjoyed going to the Tim's in Lake Mary when I visited my dad over the holidays. Although they this Tim's is technically a franchise, the gent who ran the shop was knowledgeable, enthusiastic and generous providing sips of a delicious champagne. Great selection of wines too! I ended up with two cases for five drinkers over five days!
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Re: WSJ wine article

#21 Post by Dav1d S@wyer » March 12th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Brings the Churchill quote to mind: “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others...”

As bad as this new proliferation of wine critics (and points inflation) is, it’s far better than the former regime where one person’s preferences drove the international wine market.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#22 Post by Eric LeVine » March 12th, 2019, 2:15 pm

Ken Strauss wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 11:48 am
A really good article.
The headline gets the attention but the article is actually very informative. The author
names many good sources for wine reviews. She included CellarTracker which is for wine nerds but we knew that.
It is pretty clear that almost no one here actually read the article -- which makes sense since it is behind a paywall. It include a very nice mention of CellarTracker and segmented areas of influence in a thoughtful way.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#23 Post by Robert Dentice » March 12th, 2019, 2:25 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 2:15 pm
Ken Strauss wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 11:48 am
A really good article.
The headline gets the attention but the article is actually very informative. The author
names many good sources for wine reviews. She included CellarTracker which is for wine nerds but we knew that.
It is pretty clear that almost no one here actually read the article -- which makes sense since it is behind a paywall. It include a very nice mention of CellarTracker and segmented areas of influence in a thoughtful way.
Everyone seems to get down on Lettie Teague I like some of her articles including one of my all time favorite wine articles when she makes a fake wine and fools a bunch of collectors.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#24 Post by James Cross » March 12th, 2019, 2:29 pm

I read the whole article....twice. Good mentions of Cellar Tracker but a bit too much love for Raj Parr and all the hats he wears.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#25 Post by John Glas » March 12th, 2019, 3:26 pm

It is pretty clear that almost no one here actually read the article -- which makes sense since it is behind a paywall. It include a very nice mention of CellarTracker and segmented areas of influence in a thoughtful way.
I got around the paywall. Yes good praise for Cellar Tracker. I don't follow Raj and agree James a lot of love for him in this article. Maybe I am wrong but don't think Raj moves any wine on this site. I am sure Lebron loves the trophy wines from California.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#26 Post by Shannon Perdue » March 12th, 2019, 5:12 pm

I'm attending SXSW this year. Presented without comment - tomorrow's session -https://2019.do512.com/events/2019/3/13 ... e-official. NAME BRAND: THE AGE OF CELEBRITY SPIRITS AND WINE (OFFICIAL)

And yesterday's session - https://schedule.sxsw.com/2019/events/PP91818 Future Wine: Millennials, Tech and Change "The business of Wine is estimated to be over $60 billion in the USA and $300 billion globally. The Wine Market Council has estimated that Millennials now consume over 40% of wine in America are poised to soon consume a majority. Much of the industry seems lost! industry leading brands, media, retailers and hospitality brands are scrambling to understand the shift and not disappear into irrelevance.
What are Millennials looking for? Authenticity? Value? Experiential brands? Adventure, Discovery & fun? Brands with stories or social conscience? Brands that understand technology & social media? Will the generation’s passion for games play a role? Our diverse panel of creative thinkers on Wine, on generation evolution & Tech will share unique insights that could apply to any industry."

Some interesting ideas from this panel but some widely off-target IMO. They were missing the 4th panel member (the millennial?) that might have added more insight.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#27 Post by Al Osterheld » March 12th, 2019, 8:26 pm

Some wines featured on Lebron's twitter feed:

2014 Ramonet Chassagne Montrachet Les Ruchottes
1990 Tenuta San Guido Sassicaia
2009 Chateau Pontet Canet
2007 Opus One
2003 E. Guigal Cote Rotie La Turque
2015 Screaming Eagle The Flight
2013 Colgin Cariad Red
2012 E. Guigal Cote Rotie La Landonne

It's great we've evolved from RP's influence.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#28 Post by Shannon Perdue » March 13th, 2019, 7:07 am

Al - Agree! I wouldn't turn these down should Lebron want to share. :)

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Re: WSJ wine article

#29 Post by Al Osterheld » March 13th, 2019, 7:11 am

Shannon Perdue wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 7:07 am
Al - Agree! I wouldn't turn these down should Lebron want to share. :)
Needs some Champagne in the mix, though.

-Al

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Re: WSJ wine article

#30 Post by Markus S » March 13th, 2019, 8:18 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 1:08 am
...That's the Amazon trick. Its profane that goods with positive reviews from buyers sell good. Without any kind of recommendation its way more difficult.
Ah, the internet economy in a nutshell. Taking the mystery and magic out of the equation and leveling (like a steamroller) the competition.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#31 Post by Bryan Carr » March 13th, 2019, 1:31 pm

Shannon Perdue wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 5:12 pm
I'm attending SXSW this year. Presented without comment - tomorrow's session -https://2019.do512.com/events/2019/3/13 ... e-official. NAME BRAND: THE AGE OF CELEBRITY SPIRITS AND WINE (OFFICIAL)

And yesterday's session - https://schedule.sxsw.com/2019/events/PP91818 Future Wine: Millennials, Tech and Change "The business of Wine is estimated to be over $60 billion in the USA and $300 billion globally. The Wine Market Council has estimated that Millennials now consume over 40% of wine in America are poised to soon consume a majority. Much of the industry seems lost! industry leading brands, media, retailers and hospitality brands are scrambling to understand the shift and not disappear into irrelevance.
What are Millennials looking for? Authenticity? Value? Experiential brands? Adventure, Discovery & fun? Brands with stories or social conscience? Brands that understand technology & social media? Will the generation’s passion for games play a role? Our diverse panel of creative thinkers on Wine, on generation evolution & Tech will share unique insights that could apply to any industry."

Some interesting ideas from this panel but some widely off-target IMO. They were missing the 4th panel member (the millennial?) that might have added more insight.
As a millennial i feel like if you're trying to market to "my demo" i don't want anything to do with it. I am way more suspicious of a company trying to figure out what i want than any blandly corporate megaproduct. Case in point: Yellowtail i have no strong feelings about, but Portlandia Pinot Noir makes me viscerally cringe. You could even be a super evil yet bland corporation and I'll feel less squicked out by you than a mom and pop but over-focus-grouped product trying to "get that millennial demo". It's almost reflexive. Not saying its rational, it just is my reptile-brain-level reaction.

Also, I don't like someone telling me I want an "experience", someone mentions millennials wanting experiences and it makes me want the experience of them falling into traffic.

What were some ideas that were interesting and what did you consider widely off-target, out of curiosity?
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Re: WSJ wine article

#32 Post by Eric LeVine » March 13th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 1:31 pm
Also, I don't like someone telling me I want an "experience", someone mentions millennials wanting experiences and it makes me want the experience of them falling into traffic.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#33 Post by c fu » March 13th, 2019, 3:53 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:44 am
Mark Christenson wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 9:12 am
LeBron apparently drinks some pretty good stuff
Well that would explain why he's about 20 or 30 lbs overweight this year and suffering from so many injuries.

Wine & Fitness are two mutually exclusive universes with pretty much zero overlap between the two of them.
.
Uh he’s had one groin injury this year. And where does it show he’s 20-30lbs overweight?

This is an awful hot take.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#34 Post by Bryan Carr » March 13th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Everybody knows takes are best served cellar temp
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Re: WSJ wine article

#35 Post by John Glas » March 13th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Needs some Champagne in the mix, though.
Should be able to afford older vintages of French wines. So young.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#36 Post by Anton D » March 13th, 2019, 5:32 pm

Al Osterheld wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 7:11 am
Shannon Perdue wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 7:07 am
Al - Agree! I wouldn't turn these down should Lebron want to share. :)
Needs some Champagne in the mix, though.

-Al
I don't envision Champagne in Lebron's life any time soon.
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Re: WSJ wine article

#37 Post by Al Osterheld » March 13th, 2019, 5:49 pm

Not for basketball celebrations, but it's still an important part of life.

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Re: WSJ wine article

#38 Post by Mel Knox » March 13th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Wasn't it Blake Brown who said that in victory you deserved Champagne and in defeat you needed it??
In any event, it's been like this in the UK for some time. One or two publications don't dictate taste. Instead of bunch of wine writers argue with each other.
ITB

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