Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

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Ben M a n d l e r
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#51 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » March 8th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:15 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm
This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?
You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the "cidery" note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn't show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very "appley" and "cidery" in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it's just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.
Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#52 Post by John Morris » March 8th, 2019, 1:12 pm

Here's an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn't dumped that mousy Cahors now!
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#53 Post by Steve Slatcher » March 8th, 2019, 9:55 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:22 pm
Otto - You drive me nuts. Can't you find a better way to share the vast knowledge you have?
Sorry, I guess not. I'm much better at it face-to-face than in internet! [truce.gif]
You should take down that flag and write a book IMO.

(Despite being armed with all the information about mousiness, and not being a stranger to natural wines, I still cannot relate to the fault at all, so am coming round to the view that I must be insensitive to it. I suppose that is a good thing from a personal pleasure angle.)

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#54 Post by Wes Barton » March 8th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 12:42 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:15 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm
This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?
You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the "cidery" note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn't show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very "appley" and "cidery" in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it's just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.
Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?
I know of a shared winemaking facility that had a cider maker as one of the tenants. Several of the fermenting (red) wines picked up that cidery note and required intervention. The alleged culprit was the Champagne yeast used for the cider.
ITB - Useless lackey

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Otto Forsberg
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#55 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 9th, 2019, 1:48 am

John Morris wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 1:12 pm
Here's an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn't dumped that mousy Cahors now!
I've been thinking of doing this experiment in multiple occasions, but the problem is that all the mousy wines I taste are always in tastings and other events, never in my home! :D

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#56 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 9th, 2019, 1:50 am

Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 12:42 pm
Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?
Never. This "cidery" / "appley" note is an aroma that makes me immediately think of natural wines. Not all natural wines (well, actually relatively few) exhibit that aroma, but whenever I pick up that note, they are quite consistently from the extremist end of the non-interventionist spectrum.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#57 Post by Jayson Cohen » March 9th, 2019, 6:48 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 1:48 am
John Morris wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 1:12 pm
Here's an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn't dumped that mousy Cahors now!
I've been thinking of doing this experiment in multiple occasions, but the problem is that all the mousy wines I taste are always in tastings and other events, never in my home! :D
And I don’t recommend carrying around and pulling out a little plastic bag full of baking powder. People will definitely get the wrong idea.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#58 Post by John Morris » March 9th, 2019, 7:40 am

[snort.gif]
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#59 Post by m. ristev » March 9th, 2019, 7:46 am

i am very sensitive to mouse and often times can identify an off aroma in these spoiled wines. typically the longer the wine is exposed to oxygen the more pronounced it becomes. the smell is somewhat similar to peanut shells, perhaps rancid ones?
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#60 Post by Alan Rath » March 9th, 2019, 9:44 am

John Morris wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 7:40 am
[snort.gif]
Damn you, just spit out my coffee! [rofl.gif]

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#61 Post by John Morris » March 9th, 2019, 10:22 am

Sorry, Alan. Blame it on Jayson.
“The writing of legislation is perhaps the highest art form the United States has yet achieved, even more original and compelling than the television commercial.” – Gore Vidal, 1974

It's hard for a $35 zin to compete with a $100 cabernet that tastes the same. – me, 2018

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#62 Post by RickieM » March 15th, 2019, 1:49 pm

This is really odd. I read the part in this thread about mousiness and thought to myself I've never encountered anything even close to that before. Then yesterday I had some 2016 Gambellara Classico “Col Moenia” and the aftertaste, in the back of my mouth/throat (retronasal), was completely different from the initial aromas and taste. The aromas and taste were fruity, on the apple/pear side but like fresh apples rather than cider. Then the aftertaste was nothing I've ever had with a wine; it was familiar but I can't quite place it. It reminded me of the aroma of boiling pasta or macaroni, or potato chips or hard-boiled eggs or some combination thereof. It wasn't unpleasant but certainly unexpected from a wine. I've never smelled a mouse nest but I take it that's a very unpleasant, putrid smell and this aftertaste wasn't like that. Also, I could only sense it when breathing out, not breathing in or holding my breath. Really odd.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#63 Post by John Morris » March 15th, 2019, 2:46 pm

Is the Col Moenia a low-sulfur wine?

Hard-boiled eggs can show some hydrogen sulfide, but that seems very different from potato chips or boiling pasta.

I sometimes experience the mousiness like somewhat rancid vegetable oil -- walnut or Wesson vegetable oil that's been open too long, if you know what that's like. The potato chip smell might be akin, particularly if the package was past its sell-by date.
“The writing of legislation is perhaps the highest art form the United States has yet achieved, even more original and compelling than the television commercial.” – Gore Vidal, 1974

It's hard for a $35 zin to compete with a $100 cabernet that tastes the same. – me, 2018

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