Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

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John Morris
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Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#1 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am

I’ve been reading Jamie Goode’s new book, Faultless: Understanding Faults in Wine (U of Calif Press 2018). It's a terrific, pithy reference, with chapters on 13 common wine faults, including ladybug and smoke taints. It's much more accessible than his last book, the much more technical I Taste Red.

Has anyone else read it? I've just skimmed it, but I've learned a couple of interesting things:

1. That weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines (he calls it “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage) cannot be perceived by about a third of the population. That probably explains why some of us have such averse reactions to some low-sulfur wines that are highly touted by natural wine fans. (In a blind tasting of Cahors I hosted this week, the no-added-sulfur wine stood out like a sore thumb to several of us.)

This aspect is unusual, he explains, in that it is perceived only retronasally – at the back – so you don’t smell it when you swirl or first sip. It sort of kicks you in the butt after sipping, even after you've swallowed. I hadn't thought about that, but that is my experience. Goode says that the delay can be so long that, in large tastings, you may not experience the mousiness until after you’ve tasted another wine and you can be unsure which wine had the fault.

2. The book explains to me why brettanomyces can express itself in such varied ways. (What do latex bandage and barnyard have in common?) He says it may depend on when the brett yeast gets active – e.g., between primary and secondary fermentation, in barrel, or in bottle – and what it therefore has to feed on. It’s a very hardy little yeast and can survive on many different nutrients, depending on what's available. Hence, its byproducts are different.

Anyway, highly recommended!
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#2 Post by Howard Cooper » March 7th, 2019, 8:56 am

John, what did he say about ladybugs?
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#3 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 9:02 am

You'll just have to buy the book. neener

It covers it in his chapter on excessive greenness. He doesn't take a position on 2004 Burgundy, but he says that a non-European ladybug, which carries much, more more of that nasty scent, emerged in Europe around 2002 -- a suggestive fact.

On the other hand, he says the taint does not dissipate with time, and many people have found '04 Burgundies they intensely disliked early on are now quite pleasant. That suggests that, for those wines, bugs weren't the cause.

Using shaking sorting tables has helped in other areas where the bugs have been found on grapes, he says.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#4 Post by Oliver McCrum » March 7th, 2019, 9:54 am

There are many different strains of Brettanomyces, too. Someone at Davis did a tasting of a Syrah from Woodbridge re-fermented with different strains of Brett and the resulting wines were fascinating. One of them took my back to all of the Bordeaux wines I grew up on...
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#5 Post by C. Mc Cart » March 7th, 2019, 10:53 am

John, re the comment on LB taint not dissipating, Ontario experienced a terrible plague with the Asian lady beetle for a few years in the early '00's. 2001 was especially brutal, with many wineries experiencing a "cap" of LB'S on the top of the fermenters. Most with experience here believe the taint does decline but not in a straight line - more like a wave, coming & going, while gradually getting weaker over time.
Jamie has been here once or twice as far as I know, but not sure if he had a chance to taste many of these vintages.
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Yup....

#6 Post by TomHill » March 7th, 2019, 10:54 am

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am
I’ve been reading Jamie Goode’s new book, Faultless: Understanding Faults in Wine (U of Calif Press 2018). It's a terrific, pithy reference, with chapters on 13 common wine faults, including ladybug and smoke taints. It's much more accessible than his last book, the much more technical I Taste Red.

Has anyone else read it? I've just skimmed it, but I've learned a couple of interesting things:

1. That weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines (he calls it “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage) cannot be perceived by about a third of the population. That probably explains why some of us have such averse reactions to some low-sulfur wines that are highly touted by natural wine fans. (In a blind tasting of Cahors I hosted this week, the no-added-sulfur wine stood out like a sore thumb to several of us.)

This aspect is unusual, he explains, in that it is perceived only retronasally – at the back – so you don’t smell it when you swirl or first sip. It sort of kicks you in the butt after sipping, even after you've swallowed. I hadn't thought about that, but that is my experience. Goode says that the delay can be so long that, in large tastings, you may not experience the mousiness until after you’ve tasted another wine and you can be unsure which wine had the fault.

2. The book explains to me why brettanomyces can express itself in such varied ways. (What do latex bandage and barnyard have in common?) He says it may depend on when the brett yeast gets active – e.g., between primary and secondary fermentation, in barrel, or in bottle – and what it therefore has to feed on. It’s a very hardy little yeast and can survive on many different nutrients, depending on what's available. Hence, its byproducts are different.

Anyway, highly recommended!
Yup, John. Got the book and just skimmed it, but it looks like a very good read.
"Retronasally"?? Don't use such big words, John. I ain't a rocket scientist, you know?? [snort.gif]
That's often times where I pick up mousiness/hantavirus/wet dog fur/etc. I'll swallow the wine & things seem OK. Then, all of a sudden,
this foul character wells up in the back of the aftertaste. I've always wondered why. Now I know and even
have a high-falutin' term for it.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#7 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 11:02 am

RE: mousiness, we were at Lo-Fi in Los Alamos last summer and they had made a Grenache? that got mousey so they didn't sell it but kept bottles of it around at the tasting room for some mouse-taint educational material. They poured us some and it's really a shame because I think before I swallowed it was the best wine in their (quite appealing) lineup but afterward it was so foul it gave me the heebie-jeebies. It was super weird too because it would hit your mouth with delicious crunchy red fruit and spice, then you'd swallow or spit, there'd be a second or two where your palate cleared, then WHAM! this wave of fur and poop-soaked sawdust just took over your mouth.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#8 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 11:06 am

What does Ladybug taint smell/taste like? I always thought they were good luck, but I guess not if they get mashed in a destemmer!
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#9 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am
1. That weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines (he calls it “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage) cannot be perceived by about a third of the population. That probably explains why some of us have such averse reactions to some low-sulfur wines that are highly touted by natural wine fans. (In a blind tasting of Cahors I hosted this week, the no-added-sulfur wine stood out like a sore thumb to several of us.)

This aspect is unusual, he explains, in that it is perceived only retronasally – at the back – so you don’t smell it when you swirl or first sip. It sort of kicks you in the butt after sipping, even after you've swallowed. I hadn't thought about that, but that is my experience. Goode says that the delay can be so long that, in large tastings, you may not experience the mousiness until after you’ve tasted another wine and you can be unsure which wine had the fault.
I thought natural wines have been a big thing for such a long time everybody know already mousiness.

However, I'd like to point out that natural wines can have all kinds of weird tastes and smells, but (exactly as you describe) you really can't smell mousiness - in that sense your "weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines" is a bit misleading.

There are also people who know that mousiness appears in the aftertaste, but still don't know what it is. I've met people who describe a wine as "very mousy" where in fact it shows no mousiness at all, but instead shows elevated levels of VA and shows this coarse, grippy vinegary effect in the throat upon swallowing.

But I've noticed that some people really are impervious to this particular fault. Here in Finland we have some wine importers who import heavily mousy natural wines and if questioned, they don't seem to notice anything off in the aftertaste.

But I'm interested whether that Cahors you describe was so disagreeable because of mousiness or because of the so-called "natty" style of the wine? As I'm somewhat partial to the wines at the more "natural" end of the spectrum, I've written tons (well, dozens) of positive TNs about wines I'm at the moment swirling in the mouth and only when the mousiness strikes me in the aftertaste I cross everything out and just write "AVOID - heavily mousy".

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#10 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 11:11 am

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:02 am
RE: mousiness, we were at Lo-Fi in Los Alamos last summer and they had made a Grenache? that got mousey so they didn't sell it but kept bottles of it around at the tasting room for some mouse-taint educational material. They poured us some and it's really a shame because I think before I swallowed it was the best wine in their (quite appealing) lineup but afterward it was so foul it gave me the heebie-jeebies. It was super weird too because it would hit your mouth with delicious crunchy red fruit and spice, then you'd swallow or spit, there'd be a second or two where your palate cleared, then WHAM! this wave of fur and poop-soaked sawdust just took over your mouth.
Really a perfect description how THP can behave in an otherwise wonderful wine. I've experienced this uncounted times.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#11 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 11:26 am

Otto, as you have decent experience with Natural wines, I'd be curious as to your description of a certain class of flavors that I've encountered in some Natural wines. Sometimes you encounter a wine that is somewhat "cidery" or like a lambic ale, but not necessarily VA where it smells like paint thinner or vinegar or whatever. It still smells mostly fine, but on the palate there's just some sort of... fermentation-y flavor, that isn't all the way into unpleasantness or kombucha, and isn't quite reduction. Is there a name for that?
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#12 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 11:36 am

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:26 am
Otto, as you have decent experience with Natural wines, I'd be curious as to your description of a certain class of flavors that I've encountered in some Natural wines. Sometimes you encounter a wine that is somewhat "cidery" or like a lambic ale, but not necessarily VA where it smells like paint thinner or vinegar or whatever. It still smells mostly fine, but on the palate there's just some sort of... fermentation-y flavor, that isn't all the way into unpleasantness or kombucha, and isn't quite reduction. Is there a name for that?
I know exactly what you speak of, but I'm not entirely sure what makes the wines feel so "cidery". Because this thing can happen in reds, whites, oranges - bubbly or completely still - it must be some common bug that is encountered everywhere in the world.

My prime suspect is some strain of Brettanomyces. It's not the common strain, because that's the classic funky aroma one encounters not only in many natural wines but also in many farmhouse ciders of Bretagne and Normandy. Or - as John above described - it might be the same Brett strain but only from fresher, earlier-picked grapes. I'm basing this only because I've never described a natural wine aroma as "cidery" unless it was a high-acidity white, light red or a fresh, acid-driven orange wine.

My own mystery aroma is the distinctive aroma of Chinotto zest - probably best described as the unimitable aroma of Campari. I guess that must be Brett at work again, because so many wines that have this distinctive Campari note in their nose tend to show some bretty flavors as well. I'd just love to know what this particular aroma compound is and where it comes from!

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#13 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 11:50 am

C. Mc Cart wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 10:53 am
John, re the comment on LB taint not dissipating, Ontario experienced a terrible plague with the Asian lady beetle for a few years in the early '00's. 2001 was especially brutal, with many wineries experiencing a "cap" of LB'S on the top of the fermenters. Most with experience here believe the taint does decline but not in a straight line - more like a wave, coming & going, while gradually getting weaker over time.
Jamie has been here once or twice as far as I know, but not sure if he had a chance to taste many of these vintages.
Yes, he mentioned the Ontario problems.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#14 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 11:53 am

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:02 am
RE: mousiness, we were at Lo-Fi in Los Alamos last summer and they had made a Grenache? that got mousey so they didn't sell it but kept bottles of it around at the tasting room for some mouse-taint educational material. They poured us some and it's really a shame because I think before I swallowed it was the best wine in their (quite appealing) lineup but afterward it was so foul it gave me the heebie-jeebies. It was super weird too because it would hit your mouth with delicious crunchy red fruit and spice, then you'd swallow or spit, there'd be a second or two where your palate cleared, then WHAM! this wave of fur and poop-soaked sawdust just took over your mouth.
That's it!

Having had more of these wines in recent years, I understand a comment of my friend Claude Kolm (sometime Berserker), who said a few years back that, instead of accentuating the uniqueness of a wine, very low sulfur levels often obliterates the signs of terroir. To me, many of these taste alike, regardless of where they're from. I guess if you're in the 33% who are not sensitive to this, you get a fresher wine. But it's not working for me. (Not that all low-sulfur wines have this, but it's increasingly common, particularly if you frequent natural-wine-loving stores and restaurants.)
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#15 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 12:02 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:53 am
That's it!

Having had more of these wines in recent years, I understand a comment of my friend Claude Kolm (sometime Berserker), who said a few years back that, instead of accentuating the uniqueness of a wine, very low sulfur levels often obliterates the signs of terroir. To me, many of these taste alike, regardless of where they're from. I guess if you're in the 33% who are not sensitive to this, you get a fresher wine. But it's not working for me. (Not that all low-sulfur wines have this, but it's increasingly common, particularly if you frequent natural-wine-loving stores and restaurants.)
This really doesn't describe accurately natural wines. I'm pretty sensitive to THP (and nowadays I regularly taste a quick sip of natural wine just to detect whether it is mousy or not) and a great deal of natural wines certainly aren't mousy. I fully agree that many non-interventionist wines really don't taste of the variety or have the sense of place, but instead taste of the process (or the lack of it) but it doesn't have anything to do with mousiness. A mousy wine is basically as undrinkable as a corked wine to me, but they (fortunately) are quite rare among natural wines. It certainly seems to be increasingly common to some extent, but nevertheless it seems like a fault encountered quite seldom.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#16 Post by julianseersmartin » March 7th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:06 am
What does Ladybug taint smell/taste like? I always thought they were good luck, but I guess not if they get mashed in a destemmer!
I associate it with a really astringent/stalky "green" note, that doesn't have the weight of tannin but is far less tolerable. I find a lot of 04 Burgundy undrinkable, and some 2011s too. There does seem to be varying sensitivity from person to person.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#17 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
I thought natural wines have been a big thing for such a long time everybody know already mousiness.

However, I'd like to point out that natural wines can have all kinds of weird tastes and smells, but (exactly as you describe) you really can't smell mousiness - in that sense your "weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines" is a bit misleading.
Acetic acid is not a "weird" smell to me. It's quite familiar. Same with ethyl acetate. I've been tasting wine pretty seriously for 35 years, and I had never encountered mousiness until the last several years, so I found/find it weird. Only recently did I come on the term for it on Goode's blog.
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
There are also people who know that mousiness appears in the aftertaste, but still don't know what it is. I've met people who describe a wine as "very mousy" where in fact it shows no mousiness at all, but instead shows elevated levels of VA and shows this coarse, grippy vinegary effect in the throat upon swallowing.

But I've noticed that some people really are impervious to this particular fault. Here in Finland we have some wine importers who import heavily mousy natural wines and if questioned, they don't seem to notice anything off in the aftertaste.
As I said in the original post, it was illuminating to me that this is one of those things that a large proportion of people can't detect at any level. On top of that, there are lots of people who aren't very good at describing their sensory experience in terms that correlate to accepted terms.
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
But I'm interested whether that Cahors you describe was so disagreeable because of mousiness or because of the so-called "natty" style of the wine? As I'm somewhat partial to the wines at the more "natural" end of the spectrum, I've written tons (well, dozens) of positive TNs about wines I'm at the moment swirling in the mouth and only when the mousiness strikes me in the aftertaste I cross everything out and just write "AVOID - heavily mousy".
The wine -- a Simon Bussey "Polichinel" - Vielles Vignes - Vin de France -- was a very nice wine until I got some mousiness at the back end. No other complaints, and this mousiness wasn't particularly strong. Still, I don't like it. (Technically this isn't a Cahors because it has less than 75% malbec, but it is grown inside the appellation.)
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#18 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:02 pm
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:53 am
That's it!

Having had more of these wines in recent years, I understand a comment of my friend Claude Kolm (sometime Berserker), who said a few years back that, instead of accentuating the uniqueness of a wine, very low sulfur levels often obliterates the signs of terroir. To me, many of these taste alike, regardless of where they're from. I guess if you're in the 33% who are not sensitive to this, you get a fresher wine. But it's not working for me. (Not that all low-sulfur wines have this, but it's increasingly common, particularly if you frequent natural-wine-loving stores and restaurants.)
This really doesn't describe accurately natural wines. I'm pretty sensitive to THP (and nowadays I regularly taste a quick sip of natural wine just to detect whether it is mousy or not) and a great deal of natural wines certainly aren't mousy. I fully agree that many non-interventionist wines really don't taste of the variety or have the sense of place, but instead taste of the process (or the lack of it) but it doesn't have anything to do with mousiness. A mousy wine is basically as undrinkable as a corked wine to me, but they (fortunately) are quite rare among natural wines. It certainly seems to be increasingly common to some extent, but nevertheless it seems like a fault encountered quite seldom.
I don't think we disagree. I didn't say that all natural wines are the same; I said many share this mousiness, which masks other qualities.

I agree that there are often other markers of this style of winemaking, and they sometimes seem to dominate the impression of the wine more than the fruit character. That's kind of ironic, since that's what happens with industrial-scale winemaking and people who try to force their wines into a Parker mold.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#19 Post by C. Mc Cart » March 7th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Bryan, LB taint is like Peanuts, rancid peanuts with some chalk & green pea. Like TCA, individual perception varies. I unfortunately am high on the scale for this particular fault.

As a fun fact, I'm also quite sensitive (not super sensitive though) to TCA, but I'm fine with wines others perceive as being wildly bretty.

Would be a useful sub-forum. The "Taint trader" forum - You trade your bretty wines for my LB tainted wines. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#20 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 12:15 pm

C. Mc Cart wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:13 pm
Bryan, LB taint is like Peanuts, rancid peanuts with some chalk & green pea. Like TCA, individual perception varies. I unfortunately am high on the scale for this particular fault.

As a fun fact, I'm also quite sensitive (not super sensitive though) to TCA, but I'm fine with wines others perceive as being wildly bretty.

Would be a useful sub-forum. The "Taint trader" forum - You trade your bretty wines for my LB tainted wines. [cheers.gif]
FYI, Goode has bullet points for each fault, one of which is whether it's always a fault if detectable. Brett is not in that category. Nor is greenness, whatever the source (and he puts ladybugs in with underripe fruit).
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#21 Post by Howard Cooper » March 7th, 2019, 12:16 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 9:02 am
You'll just have to buy the book. neener

It covers it in his chapter on excessive greenness. He doesn't take a position on 2004 Burgundy, but he says that a non-European ladybug, which carries much, more more of that nasty scent, emerged in Europe around 2002 -- a suggestive fact.

On the other hand, he says the taint does not dissipate with time, and many people have found '04 Burgundies they intensely disliked early on are now quite pleasant. That suggests that, for those wines, bugs weren't the cause.

Using shaking sorting tables has helped in other areas where the bugs have been found on grapes, he says.
Thanks. If they have been around sine 2002, why have the only vintages impacted by LBT (or whatever is causing the taint) been 2004 and 2011. Not denying the taint, just wondering about the cause.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#22 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 12:28 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
I thought natural wines have been a big thing for such a long time everybody know already mousiness.

However, I'd like to point out that natural wines can have all kinds of weird tastes and smells, but (exactly as you describe) you really can't smell mousiness - in that sense your "weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines" is a bit misleading.
Acetic acid is not a "weird" smell to me. It's quite familiar. Same with ethyl acetate. I've been tasting wine pretty seriously for 35 years, and I had never encountered mousiness until the last several years, so I found/find it weird. Only recently did I come on the term for it on Goode's blog.
My point was that you described it as "weird taste/smell" but you can't smell mousiness in wine - at least unless you don't do something to bring the wine's pH up to 7.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#23 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 12:30 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:12 pm
I don't think we disagree. I didn't say that all natural wines are the same; I said many share this mousiness, which masks other qualities.

I agree that there are often other markers of this style of winemaking, and they sometimes seem to dominate the impression of the wine more than the fruit character. That's kind of ironic, since that's what happens with industrial-scale winemaking and people who try to force their wines into a Parker mold.
No, not really. But mousiness really isn't to blame - it is just one small thing among a plethora of different things that homogenize natural wines. On the contrary, many times wines that have been mousy have been very lovely, distinctive and even true to the variety and region - only to turn undrinkable on the aftertaste.

I think the characteristics that homogenize wines from distinctive expressions of variety and region into this vague "natty" style of wine are anything but mousiness.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#24 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 1:04 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:53 am
Having had more of these wines in recent years, I understand a comment of my friend Claude Kolm (sometime Berserker), who said a few years back that, instead of accentuating the uniqueness of a wine, very low sulfur levels often obliterates the signs of terroir. To me, many of these taste alike, regardless of where they're from. I guess if you're in the 33% who are not sensitive to this, you get a fresher wine. But it's not working for me. (Not that all low-sulfur wines have this, but it's increasingly common, particularly if you frequent natural-wine-loving stores and restaurants.)
I had an interesting interaction about this EXACT thing recently, where the person pouring mentioned the "minimal intervention allowing the terroir to shine through" when in actual fact it erased any varietal character or sense of place just as badly as overoaking can, like Otto mentioned. I guess it shows terroir in that whatever microbes were on the grapes at harvest were allowed to do their thing and that is truly what the "place" would dictate, but I'm not sure that's what most people mean when they talk about terroir or varietal character.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#25 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 1:07 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:30 pm


I think the characteristics that homogenize wines from distinctive expressions of variety and region into this vague "natty" style of wine are anything but mousiness.
In my experience, like yours I think, mousy wines tend to taste "as expected" until you swallow them which, like you say, is quite different from the "natty" style we discuss above.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#26 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » March 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:36 am
Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:26 am
Otto, as you have decent experience with Natural wines, I'd be curious as to your description of a certain class of flavors that I've encountered in some Natural wines. Sometimes you encounter a wine that is somewhat "cidery" or like a lambic ale, but not necessarily VA where it smells like paint thinner or vinegar or whatever. It still smells mostly fine, but on the palate there's just some sort of... fermentation-y flavor, that isn't all the way into unpleasantness or kombucha, and isn't quite reduction. Is there a name for that?
I know exactly what you speak of, but I'm not entirely sure what makes the wines feel so "cidery". Because this thing can happen in reds, whites, oranges - bubbly or completely still - it must be some common bug that is encountered everywhere in the world.

My prime suspect is some strain of Brettanomyces. It's not the common strain, because that's the classic funky aroma one encounters not only in many natural wines but also in many farmhouse ciders of Bretagne and Normandy. Or - as John above described - it might be the same Brett strain but only from fresher, earlier-picked grapes. I'm basing this only because I've never described a natural wine aroma as "cidery" unless it was a high-acidity white, light red or a fresh, acid-driven orange wine.

My own mystery aroma is the distinctive aroma of Chinotto zest - probably best described as the unimitable aroma of Campari. I guess that must be Brett at work again, because so many wines that have this distinctive Campari note in their nose tend to show some bretty flavors as well. I'd just love to know what this particular aroma compound is and where it comes from!
This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#27 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 1:33 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:28 pm
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
I thought natural wines have been a big thing for such a long time everybody know already mousiness.

However, I'd like to point out that natural wines can have all kinds of weird tastes and smells, but (exactly as you describe) you really can't smell mousiness - in that sense your "weird taste/smell you often get in low/no-sulfur wines" is a bit misleading.
Acetic acid is not a "weird" smell to me. It's quite familiar. Same with ethyl acetate. I've been tasting wine pretty seriously for 35 years, and I had never encountered mousiness until the last several years, so I found/find it weird. Only recently did I come on the term for it on Goode's blog.
My point was that you described it as "weird taste/smell" but you can't smell mousiness in wine - at least unless you don't do something to bring the wine's pH up to 7.
Since it's not one of the four or five tastes humans can detect, I assume it is actually an aroma. Perhaps the cells that are sensitive to it are at the back of the sinuses. It's sort of an exaggerated form of the experience you have when you gurgle a wine and swallow -- a much intense sense of the flavors than you get sniffing.

Anyone around here know any sensory anatomy?
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#28 Post by Bryan Carr » March 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm

vvv this vvv
Last edited by Bryan Carr on March 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#29 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:33 pm
Since it's not one of the four or five tastes humans can detect, I assume it is actually an aroma. Perhaps the cells that are sensitive to it are at the back of the sinuses. It's sort of an exaggerated form of the experience you have when you gurgle a wine and swallow -- a much intense sense of the flavors than you get sniffing.

Anyone around here know any sensory anatomy?
I haven't read the Goode book in question, so I don't know what he has written on the subject. However, how the thing works is that THP (the primary compound behind mousiness) is non-volatile in acid evironment, probably bound up with another molecule. However, around pH 7 and higher the molecule becomes free and turns volatile, i.e. one can smell it.

This is why a you can't smell it from the glass - all the molecules are bound and non-volatile - and you really can't taste it - since the wine is still low in pH (around 3-4) in your mouth. However, once you swallow the wine, the minuscule amount of wine that coats your mouth starts to go up in pH because of the saliva. Slowly the THP molecules become volatile and suddenly a wine that might've been pure and delicious moments ago turns disgusting and unclean. You "taste" it as the molecules rise up in your nose "retronasally", from the back of your mouth.

So yes, you actually smell it, but you just can't smell it in the wine. If you want to smell mousiness, you have to do something to the wine to jack up its pH up to 7. Probably the easiest way to do is to put a drop or two of wine on the back of your palm and rub it there. The skin turns the pH of the thin film of wine quickly up to 7 and you can smell the mousiness there.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#30 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 2:15 pm

Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm
This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?
You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the "cidery" note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn't show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very "appley" and "cidery" in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it's just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#31 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 2:22 pm

Otto - You drive me nuts. Can't you find a better way to share the vast knowledge you have?

First you quarreled with me saying mousiness is a weird smell because,as you note, natural wines have lots of weird things, including VA. Then when I said this is not like VA, which is much more common in my experience across different kinds of wines, you said this mousiness is not like VA because you can't smell mousiness. Now you admit that you can smell it, just at the back. Which is what I said at the beginning!

The info about the impact of pH is fascinating. The rest of this is quibbling to no end.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#32 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:22 pm
Otto - You drive me nuts. Can't you find a better way to share the vast knowledge you have?
Sorry, I guess not. I'm much better at it face-to-face than in internet! [truce.gif]
First you quarreled with me saying mousiness is a weird smell because,as you note, natural wines have lots of weird things, including VA. Then when I said this is not like VA, which is much more common in my experience across different kinds of wines, you said this mousiness is not like VA because you can't smell mousiness. Now you admit that you can smell it, just at the back. Which is what I said at the beginning!
The key point here is that I really don't like when people say or write "mousy smell", because in probably 99% of the cases there is no mousy smell. When tasting the wine you technically smell the compound, yes, but if it happens retronasally, your brain doesn't think you've smelled something, but it instead is re-wired as a taste of the wine (the same thing happens with all the flavor compounds, yet we say we taste the wine, not smell the wine, when the process happens in our mouths). People should be wary when talking about "mousy smell" because people who don't know anything about the subject will pick up the words and use them in the wrong context. I've heard people saying how a wine smells very mousy whereas it had a lot of brett / cooked aromatics / unclean fruit / reduction / you name it.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#33 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 2:37 pm

Of course there must be a fella who asks "but who cares?"

My answer is: "me, for one."

Technical accuracy is a virtue and science rocks.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#34 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 2:41 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm
The key point here is that I really don't like when people say or write "mousy smell", because in probably 99% of the cases there is no mousy smell. When tasting the wine you technically smell the compound, yes, but if it happens retronasally, your brain doesn't think you've smelled something, but it instead is re-wired as a taste of the wine (the same thing happens with all the flavor compounds, yet we say we taste the wine, not smell the wine, when the process happens in our mouths).
And I was being scientifically precise by specifying that this is technically not a taste.
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Thanks...

#35 Post by TomHill » March 7th, 2019, 2:52 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:33 pm
Since it's not one of the four or five tastes humans can detect, I assume it is actually an aroma. Perhaps the cells that are sensitive to it are at the back of the sinuses. It's sort of an exaggerated form of the experience you have when you gurgle a wine and swallow -- a much intense sense of the flavors than you get sniffing.

Anyone around here know any sensory anatomy?
I haven't read the Goode book in question, so I don't know what he has written on the subject. However, how the thing works is that THP (the primary compound behind mousiness) is non-volatile in acid evironment, probably bound up with another molecule. However, around pH 7 and higher the molecule becomes free and turns volatile, i.e. one can smell it.

This is why a you can't smell it from the glass - all the molecules are bound and non-volatile - and you really can't taste it - since the wine is still low in pH (around 3-4) in your mouth. However, once you swallow the wine, the minuscule amount of wine that coats your mouth starts to go up in pH because of the saliva. Slowly the THP molecules become volatile and suddenly a wine that might've been pure and delicious moments ago turns disgusting and unclean. You "taste" it as the molecules rise up in your nose "retronasally", from the back of your mouth.

So yes, you actually smell it, but you just can't smell it in the wine. If you want to smell mousiness, you have to do something to the wine to jack up its pH up to 7. Probably the easiest way to do is to put a drop or two of wine on the back of your palm and rub it there. The skin turns the pH of the thin film of wine quickly up to 7 and you can smell the mousiness there.
Thanks, Otto.....that makes ultimate sense. Even us non-rocket scientists can understand that explanation.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#36 Post by Mike Evans » March 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:41 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm
The key point here is that I really don't like when people say or write "mousy smell", because in probably 99% of the cases there is no mousy smell. When tasting the wine you technically smell the compound, yes, but if it happens retronasally, your brain doesn't think you've smelled something, but it instead is re-wired as a taste of the wine (the same thing happens with all the flavor compounds, yet we say we taste the wine, not smell the wine, when the process happens in our mouths).
And I was being scientifically precise by specifying that this is technically not a taste.
Insisting that a tomato is a fruit is also scientifically precise, but that doesn’t mean that tomatoes belong in a fruit salad. If you can smell it when you sniff the wine in the glass, then whatever you are smelling isn’t mousiness, it is something else. While mousiness is technically an olfactory flaw, it only presents itself at the point where smell means taste in common parlance.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#37 Post by John Morris » March 7th, 2019, 3:11 pm

But Otto was saying that he was being strictly scientific and suggesting I was not. I reserve the right to be as nitpicking as the next guy.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#38 Post by Alan Rath » March 7th, 2019, 4:02 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:06 am
What does Ladybug taint smell/taste like? I always thought they were good luck, but I guess not if they get mashed in a destemmer!
I don't necessarily recommend this, but if you want to know, crush a lady bug between your fingers. Just like learning the smell of formic acid from crushing an ant.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#39 Post by Wes Barton » March 7th, 2019, 5:31 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 4:02 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:06 am
What does Ladybug taint smell/taste like? I always thought they were good luck, but I guess not if they get mashed in a destemmer!
I don't necessarily recommend this, but if you want to know, crush a lady bug between your fingers. Just like learning the smell of formic acid from crushing an ant.
You don't even need to crush them. It's a compound they release as a defense mechanism, so you can easily get it on you when handling them. I certainly did a lot as a kid plucking them off plants. Letting them climb onto you might not stress them out, though.
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#40 Post by tcavallo » March 7th, 2019, 7:41 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:15 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:09 pm
This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?
You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the "cidery" note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn't show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very "appley" and "cidery" in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it's just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.
I am of the mind that these cidery notes prevalent in natural wines, specifically, are actually a combination of things. The acetaldehyde mentioned here, but also additional acids created by VA and LAB which are given a little more room to play when SO2 adds are low, especially as the pH climbs above 3.5. We make a number of varietal piquettes, and all show various facets of these notes associated with wild ales or ciders, primarily because with the water add, the pH can get pretty high for where we would normally comfortably ferment. Since we add some wine back before bottling anyway, we have started adding it at press so it doesn't spend any time in the tank in the "danger zone."

There are some in the natural wine would who would argue that some amount of these flaws ARE a part of terroir if their precursors are present on sound fruit in the vineyard, in the same way that many would claim you can't fully capture terroir without only native yeast for fermentation. I even have a friend who goes as far as saying mouse is terroir+vintage specific. I don't feel this way myself, as I do think in large enough quantities, any of these compounds can mask terroir and variety, but it's a fun and interesting conversation nonetheless.

And regarding THP/mouse and non-responders, I think the science is still out, but in my opinion it is actually low saliva pH and not a lack of sensory ability that causes some people to not experience it. Some mouths just don't have the chemistry to volatilize THP!
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#41 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 9:49 pm

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:11 pm
But Otto was saying that he was being strictly scientific and suggesting I was not. I reserve the right to be as nitpicking as the next guy.
I was not or at least I was not trying to. My only point was to make sure people don't use the terms incorrectly. I didn't mean to offend anybody, but getting my point across softly and politely across the net has never been my forté.

I grant you that you are absolutely right when saying mousiness ultimately isn't a taste but a smell, but if we go down that road, then EVERYTHING in wine except for the sweetness, the bitterness, the acids, the saline tones and the umami are not flavors, but aromas. Tasting cherry in your wine? Nope, it's a smell. How about leather? A smell too. How about banana bubblegum? Definitely a smell.

Exactly as you said in one of your posts above, except for the five (or so) basic tastes that tongue can detect, all the flavors a human can taste are actually aromas that are picked up retronasally and brain does the magic turning into those aromas into flavors. Calling these flavors aromas instead of flavors is strictly scientifically accurate but also rather pointless, because brains don't work that way. In normal speech people associate "smell" by something we can sense through sniffing something and "taste" by something we can sense through tasting it, even though the exact sensation still happens in the nose. That's the long and detailed explanation why I would avoid using the term "mousy smell" when describing wine.

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#42 Post by Otto Forsberg » March 7th, 2019, 9:53 pm

tcavallo wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 7:41 pm
I am of the mind that these cidery notes prevalent in natural wines, specifically, are actually a combination of things. The acetaldehyde mentioned here, but also additional acids created by VA and LAB which are given a little more room to play when SO2 adds are low, especially as the pH climbs above 3.5. We make a number of varietal piquettes, and all show various facets of these notes associated with wild ales or ciders, primarily because with the water add, the pH can get pretty high for where we would normally comfortably ferment. Since we add some wine back before bottling anyway, we have started adding it at press so it doesn't spend any time in the tank in the "danger zone."

There are some in the natural wine would who would argue that some amount of these flaws ARE a part of terroir if their precursors are present on sound fruit in the vineyard, in the same way that many would claim you can't fully capture terroir without only native yeast for fermentation. I even have a friend who goes as far as saying mouse is terroir+vintage specific. I don't feel this way myself, as I do think in large enough quantities, any of these compounds can mask terroir and variety, but it's a fun and interesting conversation nonetheless.

And regarding THP/mouse and non-responders, I think the science is still out, but in my opinion it is actually low saliva pH and not a lack of sensory ability that causes some people to not experience it. Some mouths just don't have the chemistry to volatilize THP!
Great stuff, thank you for your input. We've been discussing with my friends on that mouth pH thing regarding how differently we taste mousiness (how quickly the character appears, how intensely one tastes it), but I've never thought it could be that the pH threshold to volatilize THP could be so low in some people's mouth that the wine never turns unclean - I thought the mouth pH was well above the threshold. However, as I have no idea what is the normal mouth pH and how much there is variance, your explanation could actually be a viable possibility!

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#43 Post by Kevin Kitagawa » March 8th, 2019, 4:34 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:15 pm
However, the "cidery" note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn't show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very "appley" and "cidery" in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it's just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.
I've associated it with VA as I see it in wines where the winemaker has intentionally tried to have more VA in the wine....my guess is to give it the perception of more acidity....In the case of Juras because they were able to get a bit more ripeness...

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#44 Post by Markus S » March 8th, 2019, 7:22 am

John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am
... “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage...
I really hate this word, not because of it's meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.
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Markus S
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#45 Post by Markus S » March 8th, 2019, 7:26 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
.. the so-called "natty" style of the wine?
Dreadlocks have a taste now?
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D@vid Bu3ker
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#46 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » March 8th, 2019, 7:30 am

Markus S wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 7:26 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:09 am
.. the so-called "natty" style of the wine?
Dreadlocks have a taste now?
No...think NattyBo. ;)
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

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John Morris
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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#47 Post by John Morris » March 8th, 2019, 8:02 am

Markus S wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 7:22 am
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am
... “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage...
I really hate this word, not because of it's meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.
It refers to the smell of a mouse cage. And you don't have to be that close to one to pick that up.
"The Internet has resulted in an exponential increase in the number of instances in which humor must be explained." - me, 2019

"It's hard for a $35 zin to compete with a $100 cabernet that tastes the same." – me, 2018

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Well....

#48 Post by TomHill » March 8th, 2019, 8:18 am

John Morris wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 8:02 am
Markus S wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 7:22 am
John Morris wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 8:40 am
... “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage...
I really hate this word, not because of it's meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.
It refers to the smell of a mouse cage. And you don't have to be that close to one to pick that up.
You're dealing w/ the wrong mouses, Markus. I would invite you out to LosAlamos and have you unstack one of my
woodpiles. When you do, you'll often uncover an old mouse's nest filled w/ stale mouse urine, old mouse poop, and a wretched
smell of decay. It's a very unique smell that I often describe as "hantavirus", because that's where you can pick up
the hantavirus disease.
But I'm glad you make the effort to sniff up the mouses you trap. Broadens your wine experience.
Tom

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Re: Well....

#49 Post by Bryan Carr » March 8th, 2019, 9:02 am

TomHill wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 8:18 am

You're dealing w/ the wrong mouses, Markus. I would invite you out to LosAlamos and have you unstack one of my
woodpiles. When you do, you'll often uncover an old mouse's nest filled w/ stale mouse urine, old mouse poop, and a wretched
smell of decay. It's a very unique smell that I often describe as "hantavirus", because that's where you can pick up
the hantavirus disease.
But I'm glad you make the effort to sniff up the mouses you trap. Broadens your wine experience.
Learning experiences lurk in the strangest of places!

Also, this is a great and informative thread, thanks all for the info everyone!
CT: the_lovenest

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Re: Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

#50 Post by John Morris » March 8th, 2019, 9:16 am

Indeed, we're learning a lot about Berserkers' interactions with dead animals.
"The Internet has resulted in an exponential increase in the number of instances in which humor must be explained." - me, 2019

"It's hard for a $35 zin to compete with a $100 cabernet that tastes the same." – me, 2018

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