Gigondas is More Enjoyable than Chateauneuf-du-Pape. Fight me!

Just kidding. Don’t actually fight me. Though please discuss!

It occurred to me last night that I still enjoy and acquire wines from Gigondas on a semi-regular basis, including a full case of one that will arrive soon as part of my efforts to stack QPR wines a little more deeply. I have always enjoyed wines from the appellation, as well as the right producers from other areas such as Vacqueyras, Rasteau, Cairanne, CdRV and CdR - they were my daily drinkers when I was in my 20s and just starting out in wine. I still enjoy them regularly.

On the other hand - CdP - I have many more checkered experiences here, including last summer’s slog through the worst of 2007. I’ll be up front and say that I have never found CdP particularly compelling, even in the pre-spoof era, even as I was enjoying other Southern Rhone reds. Some of it is the over-the-top ripeness and alcohol that marks so many 21st century wines, but even before that I seldom found many examples that I thought were worth spending the extra coin for when there was a good Gigondas available.

It seems strange to enjoy a region generally, but find what is in theory its leading light to be (with a few exceptions) generally pretty dull and uninteresting for my palate. It’s not a problem I have with any other region except maybe Bordeaux, and much less so there. I’m guessing the lower ripeness, more structure and higher acidity are part of it.

(Not trying to bash anyone’s palate preferences - it just struck me as really funny that mine shakes out this way)

When I first started buying wine, Parker was going nuts over the S. Rhones (cir. 2007) and so I bought.

But I also bought Gig and Vacqueyras and enjoyed them more than the CdPs that I bought (and still have a couple of ).

You won’t get any argument from me. Gigondas is a tremendous QPR region generally. I’ve had very good $15-$20 bottles and outstanding $35 bottles. 2016 is a vintage to seek out as well.

You’ve never been into Rayas?

But seriously, what do you think about Charvin, Beaucastel, Vieux Telegraphe & some of the more somewhat affordable, “traditional” houses? I say traditional loosely because I’m not too sure they’ve escaped all of the over-ripeness trend (although at least they aren’t oaked to shit).

Definitely love Rayas. Would that I could afford it! Barrel tasting Grenache and Cinsault at the property remains one of my favorite wine memories. I like Charvin. I sometimes like Domaine de Ferrand. I loved the 01 Charbonniere ‘Mourre de Perdrix’ bottling. I can’t stand oaked-Grenache. That same trip I violently spat more than one high-scoring Super Cuvee at some prominent addresses.

Thinking about it as I enjoy a bit of Bertrand Stehelin Gigondas (the inspiration for this post), what I have always prized from the Southern Rhone and Languedoc is a certain rusticity. The CdPs I tend to enjoy often reflect what I love in Burgundy (the 01 Charbonniere I referenced was like a slightly rustic and peppery Burg in many ways), but I wonder if the problem I have is that the majority of them are too polished for what I want out of the Rhone and I can just open something like a Santenay or Maranges and get more of what I want for the money.

A very interesting observation. I agree.

I’ve had some wonderful mature Beaucastels and Vieux Telegraphs – some of the most pleasurable wines I’ve ever drunk. But I’ve had way more mediocre – or awful – CdPs, young and old. Since the 2010 vintage, I’ve only bought a handful – some Beaucastel, Charvin, Moulin-Tacussel and Texier. All are VERY atypical.

In recent years I’ve satisfied my grenache itch with other Southern appellations: the '16 Dom. Cayron Gigondas is a killer and can be had for less than $30. Texier’s Seguret is built for the ages. I am cellaring Charvin’s 2014 Cotes du Rhone, which has the depth and structure to go somewhere. The '15 and '16 Clos Bellane - Côtes du Rhone Villages-Valreas, from a high-altitude, granitic site, also beat most CdP for my palate and warrant cellar time.

Chateauneuf is also a much bigger appellation. There may be a similar volume of enjoyable wine (again, for my palate!). There are also many more CdP estates imported into the U.S., so I may not be tasting the more mediocre examples of Gigondas, but the mediocrities I have had from there have also tended to be much cheaper than “comparable” quality in CdP, and usually more enjoyable as well.

Yeah totally, there’s oceans of crap CdP.

Jim, could you list your top 5-10 Gigondas? Would love your recs for non-spoof, rustic Grenache.

The title is dangerously close to Alan territory.

Not claiming to be an authority, but I have enjoyed:

1. The Stehelin I mentioned.
2. Domaine du Terme
3. Gour de Chaule (super rustic)
4. Montirius
5. Domaine Brusset
6. Domaine Raspail-Ay
7. Domaine de Palon (value)

I need to check back in on Santa Duc and St. Cosme. The latter I enjoyed a lot, but prices are now in the $40s for the regular wine and very high for the single parcel wines. Louis Barruol is a very talented man, but I’m not sure where they fall style-wise these days.

No one will fight me, tho’.

Domaine des Bosquets la Colline and Le Lieu Dit. $60 ish retail, but have nabbed a few on Winebid for $40 ish. Buy ‘em if you can find ‘em. Small, blue limestone vineyards with great results.

Thx man! I’ve had a few recent vintages of St. Cosme Gigondas and honestly, they’ve left me a bit cold…I actually tend to like the CdR more.

I would add Dom. Cayron and Les Pallieres, which is co-owned by Kermit Lynch and the Bruniers of Vieux Telegraph. Both are quite traditional. I had the impression that Cayron’s quality dipped a bit in the mid-2000s but, as I said above, the '16 is outstanding.

That might not surprise me. I had an affection for the wines, because I got to meet him around the 02 vintage, when he made what seemed like the only good wine in the entire Southern Rhone. I asked him how he did it, and he laughed and said that he worked harder than he ever did to make a little bit of wine and lose a lot of money that year. He also told me he made a special wine for people who supported him in 02, which is how I ended up with some 03 Hominis Fides back then - it was way OOT because of the vintage, but a nice gesture. Drnik the CdR and the Deux Albion, but been a while since I went for the Gigondas.

Need to check in on those, especially Cayron. It’s also been a while since I had any of the Les Pallieres - partially because of the pricing.

Re the title, maybe young? I used to buy a bit of Gigondas, but found Vacqueyras a bit more to my liking at about the same price point.

That being said, have had nothing from any of the various AOC villages that could hold a candle to a mature or close to mature CNdP from Pegau, Beaucastel or even older Donjon. I say that as someone who has believed that good CNdP doesn’t require aging to enjoy, but with climate change/ style influence over the past 20 years, I think they do.
I don’t buy much of any nowadays, but had a few 15 yr old bottles recently and they were delicious, although not quite mature.

FIGHT!

(j/k)

I enjoy both appellations. There’s simply more Gigondas available locally than Vacqueyras so I consume more of the former.

With regards to CdP, I have largely stopped aging them post-05 vintage. I would consider cellaring 2010, but with my tastes and budget at this point in my vinous life, it makes more sense for me to look at select Barolo and Burgundy for special occasions/aging and find more value oriented Southern Rhone for the short- to medium-term.

Where I’ll disagree is that aging improves many of the more modern wines. Time may prove me wrong with a year like 07, but most of the ones I tried were hot, sweet messes last year, and none of them had characteristics that I would associate with wines likely to improve with more age. I do agree that the best of CdP shines with age, but I think those are a select few estates like Rayas, Charvin, sometimes Beaucastel, etc. When those wines were seriously undervalued, I would buy, but now that they are not…

I’ve always enjoyed CdP more than Gigondas, but that may primarily be because I’ve been drinking them since the 80’s and sort-of stopped buying them after 2009. Still enjoy it, but just don’t drink many southern Rhones as the alcohol has crept up along with ripeness. Gigondas was always a more rustic cousin to Chateauneuf, which might not be a bad thing today. Most recently had a Raspail-ay which was good.