Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

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chris brown
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Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#1 Post by chris brown » February 6th, 2019, 12:38 pm

Chateau Rayas has not released much wine since the 2009 vintage. Other wineries are releasing 2016s. Are they holding back wine to drive prices higher? Release prices have moved up from about $200 for the 2008 vintage to $500+ for 2009 if you can find it. Most older vintages are now $500+ To $900. Retailers say Rayas won't release wines until they are "ready" but these wines drink well young. What do you think?

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#2 Post by joz€f p1nxten » February 6th, 2019, 12:47 pm

I wouldn't think so: the winemaker is a special kind of character (one might describe him as "difficult") - I doubt that he would play the supply / demand game to up pricing.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#3 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » February 6th, 2019, 12:47 pm

It's a conspiracy!!! [berserker.gif]
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#4 Post by DanielP » February 6th, 2019, 12:51 pm

Maybe they're waiting for the fine wine pricing bubble to burst so they can sell it for lower prices
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#5 Post by Jeff Leve » February 6th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Rayas is always a late release, as is Bonneau with Celestins. FWIW, the price charged by Rayas is well under retail. It’s the market at work buying what many people think is one of the world’s great wines.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#6 Post by John Morris » February 6th, 2019, 1:46 pm

chris brown wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Release prices have moved up from about $200 for the 2008 vintage to $500+ for 2009 if you can find it.
One factor: 2008 was a difficult vintage wedged between two highly-rated ones.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#7 Post by pnitze » February 6th, 2019, 2:36 pm

This doesn’t give me any joy to say, but I think Rayas is underpriced in the market. It will be a $2000 bottle for a good recent vintage very soon. It is one of the world’s greatest, most unique wines. The discussion of Rayas pricing reminds me of the discussion of La Tache pricing about 10 years ago when La Tache cleared the $1000 threshold.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#8 Post by Jonathan H » February 6th, 2019, 3:22 pm

pnitze wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:36 pm
This doesn’t give me any joy to say, but I think Rayas is underpriced in the market. It will be a $2000 bottle for a good recent vintage very soon. It is one of the world’s greatest, most unique wines. The discussion of Rayas pricing reminds me of the discussion of La Tache pricing about 10 years ago when La Tache cleared the $1000 threshold.
This brings me no joy to agree with but I am 100% in agreement with you. Rayas, to me, is undeniably one of the world's great wines, and the market is only starting to price it as such. I wish I was still paying $200/btl... my latest offering was in the $500ish range and I bought as much as I could(not saying much since quantities offered were understandably low). I feel like demand for Rayas is only going to increase, and so will prices. In the grand scheme of things, even at current pricing, Rayas feels like a value pick in comparison to some of the world's great wines that I would consider it on par with. Unfortunately, I dont think it will be long before it clears $1000.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#9 Post by Craig G » February 6th, 2019, 4:03 pm

John Morris wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:46 pm
chris brown wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Release prices have moved up from about $200 for the 2008 vintage to $500+ for 2009 if you can find it.
One factor: 2008 was a difficult vintage wedged between two highly-rated ones.
2007 was priced lower than 2008.

I think some of this is related to the sale of Martine’s wines.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#10 Post by William Kelley » February 6th, 2019, 5:17 pm

Rayas 2009s have already been released in the UK and Europe some time ago. In the US, they are being held back, because Emmanuel thought they were being drunk too young, and to coincide with the Martine's Wines anniversary this year.

Even though I personally regret the price rises, as it means I can't buy as much, I don't resent it. And it's driven by the market. Rayas is one of the world's greatest wines.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#11 Post by William Kelley » February 6th, 2019, 5:20 pm

John Morris wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:46 pm
chris brown wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Release prices have moved up from about $200 for the 2008 vintage to $500+ for 2009 if you can find it.
One factor: 2008 was a difficult vintage wedged between two highly-rated ones.
2008 Rayas is stunning, however! Better than any young Châteauneuf from any other producer that I have drunk in the last five years. It just gets better and better, and I am regularly kicking myself that I listened to the erroneous reviews and drank almost all of my bottles shortly after release. Good though it was then, it's so much more interesting today. And it will go the distance.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#12 Post by pnitze » February 6th, 2019, 6:14 pm

2008 Rayas is the 1998 Cheval Blanc of chateauneuf. The gap between the early reviews and the liquid in the bottle is laughable. I struggle to think of other wines that so clearly outperformed their initial scores. And I generally agree with the critics.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#13 Post by Tom Reddick » February 6th, 2019, 10:14 pm

Jonathan H wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:22 pm
pnitze wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:36 pm
This doesn’t give me any joy to say, but I think Rayas is underpriced in the market. It will be a $2000 bottle for a good recent vintage very soon. It is one of the world’s greatest, most unique wines. The discussion of Rayas pricing reminds me of the discussion of La Tache pricing about 10 years ago when La Tache cleared the $1000 threshold.
This brings me no joy to agree with but I am 100% in agreement with you. Rayas, to me, is undeniably one of the world's great wines, and the market is only starting to price it as such. I wish I was still paying $200/btl... my latest offering was in the $500ish range and I bought as much as I could(not saying much since quantities offered were understandably low). I feel like demand for Rayas is only going to increase, and so will prices. In the grand scheme of things, even at current pricing, Rayas feels like a value pick in comparison to some of the world's great wines that I would consider it on par with. Unfortunately, I dont think it will be long before it clears $1000.
Agreed. I do not taste Rhone wines with much frequency, but lately I have had the good fortune to taste a handful of 80s and early 00s wines- TNs here for a couple of them- and I found them utterly thrilling. Just as exciting as older (1970s) LaLas quite frankly- if for different reasons. Never see new vintages around here any more from retailers who charge a normal markup. Should have stocked up when I had the chance.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#14 Post by Mark C Johnson » February 6th, 2019, 10:47 pm

And as a result, all the sister, brother and cousin offerings (Fonsalette,ect.) have seen remarkable increases in pricing. All worth it IMHO. I cherish the few bottles I have from this producer.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#15 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » February 6th, 2019, 11:10 pm

I agree. At all levels (Pignan, Fonsalette), the wines deliver. A producer that genuinely made me change how I think about wine.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#16 Post by Thomas De Waen » February 6th, 2019, 11:48 pm

Chateau/Domaine des tours remains one of the wine world’s great bargains. Baby rayas for about eur 20/bottle!

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#17 Post by Gerhard P. » February 7th, 2019, 12:39 am

Emmanuel Reynaud is indeed a "special" character, but the motivation to hold vintages back is different - and the (high) prices are made in the secondary/tertiaery market ...
at the Chateau they are pretty much consistent over the years, if you write about 500+$ be aware that´s four+ times the price off Chateau!

Moreover he has no need to drive prices higher, he can ask what he wants, and will get it ... always ...
there are only about 20.000 bottles of Rayas for the world per vintage (and in 2018 there will be close to nothing).

The causes are (IMHO):
1. you have to pay taxes only for SOLD wine - less vintages sold, less taxes to pay (and I think he is living quite modestly and has all he needs)
2. he indeed doesn´t like to have his wines drunk too early, especially vintages like 2010 ...
3. he does almost the same at Chateau des Tours, only the Vin des Pays and Cotes-du-Rhone (now 2014) is released earlier, the Vacqueyras is released almost as late as Rayas.
4. the only step by Emmanuel to increase prices (slightly) is to later release 3-packs of older vintages: 1 Rayas, 1 Pignan, 1 Fonsalette ... they are about 25-30% more than the original release ... and also a way to distribute the Fonsalette together with Rayas ...
I think now 3-packs of 2004-07 were available last summer (in very tiny quantities).
Jeff Leve wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Rayas is always a late release, as is Bonneau with Celestins....
Jacques Reynaud released the wines (up to vintage 1994) after 2 years ... only Emmanuel started a delay in about 1999, first only one year, now 6 years.
Craig G wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 4:03 pm
2007 was priced lower than 2008.
...
The quantity in 2008 was much lower than in 2007 ... I only got half of my usual allocation.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#18 Post by Gerhard P. » February 7th, 2019, 12:49 am

William Kelley wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 5:20 pm

2008 Rayas is stunning, however! Better than any young Châteauneuf from any other producer that I have drunk in the last five years. It just gets better and better, and I am regularly kicking myself that I listened to the erroneous reviews and drank almost all of my bottles shortly after release. Good though it was then, it's so much more interesting today. And it will go the distance.
See why Emmanuel is keen of late releases? [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#19 Post by chris brown » February 7th, 2019, 11:16 am

Jonathan H wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:22 pm
pnitze wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 2:36 pm
This doesn’t give me any joy to say, but I think Rayas is underpriced in the market. It will be a $2000 bottle for a good recent vintage very soon. It is one of the world’s greatest, most unique wines. The discussion of Rayas pricing reminds me of the discussion of La Tache pricing about 10 years ago when La Tache cleared the $1000 threshold.
This brings me no joy to agree with but I am 100% in agreement with you. Rayas, to me, is undeniably one of the world's great wines, and the market is only starting to price it as such. I wish I was still paying $200/btl... my latest offering was in the $500ish range and I bought as much as I could(not saying much since quantities offered were understandably low). I feel like demand for Rayas is only going to increase, and so will prices. In the grand scheme of things, even at current pricing, Rayas feels like a value pick in comparison to some of the world's great wines that I would consider it on par with. Unfortunately, I dont think it will be long before it clears $1000.
I was wondering/affraid if this view got back to Rayas which is what might have caused them them to hold back wine (create a shortage) and accelerate the process of them going to $1000+ per bottle.

I was in Provence last summer and I spoke to a high end retailer of wines there. He said the Chateau is very aggressive on policing retailers who flip their wine allocations to the international market. The retailer said that Rayas wants their wines to be bought at release prices by consumers who drink the wine rather than flip it. They monitor wine web sites to see who is flipping wines. He said good vintages can be sold in the Asian market for close to $1000 per bottle and that they get calls all the time from Asian buyers who want to buy and then flip the wine.

Rayas is my favorite wine and I have been a long time collector. It is discouraging to see hardly any new wine released by the Chateau in the US for the last couple of years. This is what led to my speculation about holding back wine. What little that is out there is now $500 bottle if you can find it. It probably will go past $1000 a bottle as it is one of the most iconic wines made and it often beats out top Bordeaux/Burgundy wines in group tastings.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#20 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » February 7th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:39 am
Emmanuel Reynaud is indeed a "special" character, but the motivation to hold vintages back is different - and the (high) prices are made in the secondary/tertiaery market ...
at the Chateau they are pretty much consistent over the years, if you write about 500+$ be aware that´s four+ times the price off Chateau!

Most Southern Rhone wines, CdP included, usually are about 2X in the US what they cost ex cave, or even just 2x in $ what they cost in euros. The Rayas line indeed runs between 3 and 4 times. This makes Chateau des Tours, whose CdRs and Vacqueyras are very good QPR ex cave (given the quality) much less of a QPR here (Vacqueyras ex cave is 27 euros and costs $75-85 in the US). I don't know if this is the importer or the US market, but it is part of why these wines are so expensive here.
Last edited by Jonathan Loesberg on February 9th, 2019, 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#21 Post by Nick Gangas » February 8th, 2019, 11:31 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:49 am
William Kelley wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 5:20 pm

2008 Rayas is stunning, however! Better than any young Châteauneuf from any other producer that I have drunk in the last five years. It just gets better and better, and I am regularly kicking myself that I listened to the erroneous reviews and drank almost all of my bottles shortly after release. Good though it was then, it's so much more interesting today. And it will go the distance.
See why Emmanuel is keen of late releases? [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]
I don't collect CDP. I do collect and drink Rayas. One of my absolute favorite wines to drink. A few years ago I was going to pull the 04 for dinner and grabbed the 08 by mistake. We were ooh and awing over the wine when I looked at the vintage tag. Big surprise and a reminder to just rely on great producers.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#22 Post by Pat Esposito » February 8th, 2019, 12:01 pm

Anyone willing to offer up where to get these when they release in the US ? I have acquired all of mine at auction, would love to by some direct.

The '85 Rayas I had last year was my WOTY and in my top 5 lifetime wines.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#23 Post by Joshua Kates » February 8th, 2019, 3:52 pm

William Kelley wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 5:20 pm
John Morris wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:46 pm
chris brown wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Release prices have moved up from about $200 for the 2008 vintage to $500+ for 2009 if you can find it.
One factor: 2008 was a difficult vintage wedged between two highly-rated ones.
2008 Rayas is stunning, however! Better than any young Châteauneuf from any other producer that I have drunk in the last five years. It just gets better and better, and I am regularly kicking myself that I listened to the erroneous reviews and drank almost all of my bottles shortly after release. Good though it was then, it's so much more interesting today. And it will go the distance.
Good to know William,
As I recently sourced some!

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#24 Post by William Kelley » February 8th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Pat Esposito wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 12:01 pm
Anyone willing to offer up where to get these when they release in the US ? I have acquired all of mine at auction, would love to by some direct.

The '85 Rayas I had last year was my WOTY and in my top 5 lifetime wines.
There is only one US importer, Martine's Wines, and the 2009 will be released this year.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#25 Post by D. HEIN » February 8th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Gentlemen,

Pleeez, what would an original case of 1990 Rayas, Reserve CdP be priced at, and, an original case of 1990 Fonsalette, both in pristene condition?

At a Sotheby's, Christie's or HDH auction, what is your speculation/estimate as to hammer price for each?

And, while were at it, pricing for the Fonsalette-Syrah '80s and '90s?

The comparison would be to the 1990 H. Bonneu-Celestins! Sotheby's has sold this vintage, recently, at retail, at $4,000.00 per bottle!

Can't imagine that there isn't a financial motivation/consideration in this scenario, at the chateau and/or elsewhere relative to Rayas wines!
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#26 Post by patrick c albright » February 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm

I paid €166-- for 2009 Rayas.
The real prices are more than fair.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#27 Post by luc@sl@belle » February 9th, 2019, 5:33 am

Where does one sign up for the list?

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#28 Post by Jonathan H » February 9th, 2019, 9:04 am

luc@sl@belle wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 5:33 am
Where does one sign up for the list?
I don't know if there are any formal lists. Best bet is to make friends with a retailer that gets an allocation
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#29 Post by Jonathan H » February 9th, 2019, 9:06 am

patrick c albright wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I paid €166-- for 2009 Rayas.
The real prices are more than fair.
I bought mine for pretty much the same price. I found that only the back vintages have been significantly higher priced, like this last round of 2001 and 2007's that were released. I personally love the wines, so I was just happy to be offered some.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#30 Post by chris brown » February 9th, 2019, 11:37 am

patrick c albright wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I paid €166-- for 2009 Rayas.
The real prices are more than fair.
I was offered some 2009 about two years ago for about $450. It was a retailer that buys it from Martines. Somebody is making a big mark up on the wine in the US.

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#31 Post by William Kelley » February 9th, 2019, 12:03 pm

chris brown wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 11:37 am
patrick c albright wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I paid €166-- for 2009 Rayas.
The real prices are more than fair.
I was offered some 2009 about two years ago for about $450. It was a retailer that buys it from Martines. Somebody is making a big mark up on the wine in the US.
This would have been gray market. Guessing the bottles don't have the Martine's label? As previously mentioned, the official 2009 US release is happening this year to coincide with the 50th anniversary of Martine's.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#32 Post by YLee » February 9th, 2019, 12:05 pm

I believe the '09 is coming out at around $1,000/bottle in the US.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#33 Post by YLee » February 9th, 2019, 12:06 pm

William Kelley wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:03 pm
chris brown wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 11:37 am
patrick c albright wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I paid €166-- for 2009 Rayas.
The real prices are more than fair.
I was offered some 2009 about two years ago for about $450. It was a retailer that buys it from Martines. Somebody is making a big mark up on the wine in the US.
This would have been gray market. Guessing the bottles don't have the Martine's label? As previously mentioned, the official 2009 US release is happening this year to coincide with the 50th anniversary of Martine's.
Is it their 50th? I thought it was 40th.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#34 Post by Jonathan H » February 9th, 2019, 12:25 pm

YLee wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:05 pm
I believe the '09 is coming out at around $1,000/bottle in the US.
Is this true? Straight from a retailer that purchases from Martine? That is absolutely crazy considering I recently purchased some '07 for literally a little over a third of that price.

Speaking of which, has anybody read the CT TN on the '07 Rayas from Keith Levenberg? For those who have tasted the '07, what were your impressions?
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp? ... 3a6dfc7372
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#35 Post by Frank Murray III » February 9th, 2019, 12:55 pm

I really have a fondness for the wines from this domaine but I gave up once the pricing went berserk. Regardless of who/how the price changed, it is now beyond what I want to pay. Spending 100s of dollars on wine now that in common wisdom is deemed to be aged for a decade or more is not in my strategy anymore.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence Blanc de Blancs Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Occidental Ridge SC PN
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Platt SC PN
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#36 Post by William Kelley » February 9th, 2019, 2:32 pm

YLee wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Is it their 50th? I thought it was 40th.
You are right.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#37 Post by William Kelley » February 9th, 2019, 2:35 pm

Jonathan H wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:25 pm
YLee wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:05 pm
I believe the '09 is coming out at around $1,000/bottle in the US.
Is this true? Straight from a retailer that purchases from Martine? That is absolutely crazy considering I recently purchased some '07 for literally a little over a third of that price.

Speaking of which, has anybody read the CT TN on the '07 Rayas from Keith Levenberg? For those who have tasted the '07, what were your impressions?
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp? ... 3a6dfc7372
It has been a long time since I tasted it, but while it is a high-octane vintage for Rayas, it didn't taste like that when I encountered it. But there was talk of the 2007 Rayas refermenting, and if that is true, there would be more than usual levels of bottle variation. I own the Pignan, Fonsalette and Rayas Blanc, but no Rayas, otherwise I would be tempted to open a bottle to see.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#38 Post by Frank Murray III » February 9th, 2019, 2:41 pm

And to think that I grabbed 3 bottles of 2001 Pignan from Winebid for $110 each in what seems like just 4-5 years ago. Now, that would never happen.
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence Blanc de Blancs Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Occidental Ridge SC PN
2017 Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir Platt SC PN
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

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Chuck Miller
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#39 Post by Chuck Miller » February 10th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Jonathan H wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:25 pm
YLee wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:05 pm
I believe the '09 is coming out at around $1,000/bottle in the US.
Is this true? Straight from a retailer that purchases from Martine? That is absolutely crazy considering I recently purchased some '07 for literally a little over a third of that price.

Speaking of which, has anybody read the CT TN on the '07 Rayas from Keith Levenberg? For those who have tasted the '07, what were your impressions?
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp? ... 3a6dfc7372
Unless you are calibrated with KL, just ignore anything he says about any wine. I paid under $200 for my 6 pack of ‘07 Rayas. $1,000 is hard to believe, but if true, that’s nuts. A bunch of ‘90 Rayas coming up at HDH for estimated 1500-2000 per bottle, some from a client of mine where the wine has been well stored for 20+ years and is certainly genuine.
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Seattle Wine Storage

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#40 Post by willkim » February 14th, 2019, 12:40 pm

From what I've of direct release prices relative to retailer prices it's not due to price.

Personally I'm a fan of wineries holding back vintages if they are able to as especially here in NYC many great wines are drunk when babies (and I've certainly been guilty of this too!)

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#41 Post by D. HEIN » February 20th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Donn Hein

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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#42 Post by YLee » February 20th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Some stores in NYC already has the 2009 Rayas Reserve listed at slightly over $1,000 pre-arrival.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#43 Post by Gerhard P. » February 21st, 2019, 12:43 am

D. HEIN wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 2:04 pm
RAYAS-2010, CdP-Reserve:

https://www.vinsetmillesimes.com/en/ray ... -2010.html
Just fwiw: "Reserve" has no meaning at all (now) - everything is Reserve ... Rayas, Pignan, even Fonsalette and Ch.des Tours V. and CdRh. ....
only Domaine des Tours Vin des Pays is not.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#44 Post by Alain M » February 21st, 2019, 11:47 am

D. HEIN wrote:
February 20th, 2019, 2:04 pm
RAYAS-2010, CdP-Reserve:

https://www.vinsetmillesimes.com/en/ray ... -2010.html
You really shouldn't use this site as a reliable indicator of prices. They are known for very high pricing, hence why they still have stocks of pretty-difficult-to-find wines.

I just had a look at Ramonet: 600 EUR for a Bâtard 2012, when it was 52 EUR at the Domaine. The Montrachet is 1800 EUR when it is 150€ at the Domaine. All hyped domaines are priced in the same manner.

Rayas 2009 and 2010 will likely go around 300-400 EUR on most sites, which is still 2-3x what you'd pay if you bought from the Domaine (which is possible for anyone willing to write a letter, even if you'll have only one bottle per year).

Alain
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#45 Post by YLee » February 21st, 2019, 4:33 pm

How well do Rayas reserves age?
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#46 Post by Chuck Miller » February 21st, 2019, 6:47 pm

YLee wrote:
February 21st, 2019, 4:33 pm
How well do Rayas reserves age?
Ummm, Rayas is 100% grenache. Genache has a reputation for oxidising early. You would therefore think Rayas, which is also fairly light and ethereal, would be an early drinker. You would be wrong. There is no CdP like Rayas, IMO. My most recent bottle (a couple months ago) was a 1989, which was mind blowing. The 1988, 1989 and 1990 are all going strong.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#47 Post by YLee » February 21st, 2019, 7:07 pm

Chuck Miller wrote:
February 21st, 2019, 6:47 pm
YLee wrote:
February 21st, 2019, 4:33 pm
How well do Rayas reserves age?
Ummm, Rayas is 100% grenache. Genache has a reputation for oxidising early. You would therefore think Rayas, which is also fairly light and ethereal, would be an early drinker. You would be wrong. There is no CdP like Rayas, IMO. My most recent bottle (a couple months ago) was a 1989, which was mind blowing. The 1988, 1989 and 1990 are all going strong.
Good to hear!!
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#48 Post by Craig G » February 21st, 2019, 8:09 pm

You need to drink your Rayas young. Otherwise it ages to the point where you can’t afford to drink it.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#49 Post by Chuck Miller » February 21st, 2019, 8:57 pm

Craig G wrote:
February 21st, 2019, 8:09 pm
You need to drink your Rayas young. Otherwise it ages to the point where you can’t afford to drink it.
True dat. But recent vintages are starting at that point. Anywhere over $500 on U.S. release and I am out.
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Re: Chateau Rayas holding back wine to drive prices higher?

#50 Post by Gerhard P. » February 22nd, 2019, 12:51 am

YLee wrote:
February 21st, 2019, 4:33 pm
How well do Rayas reserves age?
(as written above all Rayas is "Reserve")

What Chuck said - and in addition a 1970 drunk in 2011, a 1979 a year ago were all as good as imaginable ... 1981 and 1983 is still strong ... same for 1985.

Although Rayas (and its silblings) might seem to be accessable early I think the best time to drink it is between 20 and 30/35 years ...
that´s my experience if you wanna get some tertiaery depth and complexity ...
"smaller" vintages like 1992/93 will reach maturity earlier (10-15 years) ... and should be drunk up now.

(all imho of course)
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