[Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

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Who has the better $20-30 wines?

Poll ended at February 9th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Oregon
97
65%
Burgundy
52
35%
 
Total votes: 149

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Marcus Goodfellow
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#51 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
I think that would be fun. I generally enjoy your first three producers, and think they deliver pretty good value.

For Oregon, Evesham Wood, Patricia Green, Goodfellow(my wine, but value has always been a priority for me), Walter Scott, Vincent, Belle Pente, Hundred Suns, or Martin-Wood.

Although in general, I think that the 80% of less than stellar producers need to be accounted for as well. Low end Burgundy as a whole, can definitely struggle with quality. And Oregon has so many new producers lacking significant experience, along with no shortage of wines with more fruit than spine.

Still, it would be fun to go head to head.
Why would any of us consumers care about wines (from Burgundy or Oregon) from less than stellar producers. We come here to learn who the stellar producers are.
I hear what you’re saying, but...In a regional conversation, we need to include the non-elite. because often, but not always in wine, as in politics, as soon as someone starts to be wrong in regional commentary they usually reach for the low performers to shore up their arguments.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#52 Post by JordanL » February 5th, 2019, 7:37 pm

I think Wine for Normal People sort of has this weird Anti-New World agenda. The few episodes I listened to that praise New World wines are usually from winemakers who stick to the old world style.

I also voted Oregon. Yea the big idea is the whole you get the more jammy stuff in Oregon but some of the 'elegant' $20-30 Burgundys can be pretty lifeless and gross, so I'd rather just take a good Oregon Pinot.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#53 Post by Howard Cooper » February 5th, 2019, 8:16 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:56 am


I think that would be fun. I generally enjoy your first three producers, and think they deliver pretty good value.

For Oregon, Evesham Wood, Patricia Green, Goodfellow(my wine, but value has always been a priority for me), Walter Scott, Vincent, Belle Pente, Hundred Suns, or Martin-Wood.

Although in general, I think that the 80% of less than stellar producers need to be accounted for as well. Low end Burgundy as a whole, can definitely struggle with quality. And Oregon has so many new producers lacking significant experience, along with no shortage of wines with more fruit than spine.

Still, it would be fun to go head to head.
Why would any of us consumers care about wines (from Burgundy or Oregon) from less than stellar producers. We come here to learn who the stellar producers are.
I hear what you’re saying, but...In a regional conversation, we need to include the non-elite. because often, but not always in wine, as in politics, as soon as someone starts to be wrong in regional commentary they usually reach for the low performers to shore up their arguments.
I just don’t buy it. I guess most of us cannot participate in these regional discussions be cause we don’t seek out the mediocre and poor producers of any region. I have no idea what the worst producers are doing in Oregon or Burgundy. Nor do I care.

Why don’t you then suggest some truly horrible wines from Burgundy and Oregon for the OP to waste his money on in doing a comparison. Not sure what he will learn from this but sure, knock yourself out.
Howard

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#54 Post by Jim Anderson » February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:50 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:58 am


A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities...so, pick your path.
Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?
We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#55 Post by Mattstolz » February 6th, 2019, 5:30 am

JordanL wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:37 pm
I think Wine for Normal People sort of has this weird Anti-New World agenda. The few episodes I listened to that praise New World wines are usually from winemakers who stick to the old world style.
its weird because she hosts Sonoma wine events. mostly, I think her opinions are inconsistent. she is typically anti-big winery but in this podcasts states the big wineries are good for Oregon. she likes value but posts on facebook more often about wines she doesn't like than ones she does. its strange.
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I just don’t buy it. I guess most of us cannot participate in these regional discussions be cause we don’t seek out the mediocre and poor producers of any region. I have no idea what the worst producers are doing in Oregon or Burgundy. Nor do I care.

Why don’t you then suggest some truly horrible wines from Burgundy and Oregon for the OP to waste his money on in doing a comparison. Not sure what he will learn from this but sure, knock yourself out.
I think the conversation is important to have because most people drinking wine from a region are not drinking the best of the best. theyre drinking the most available. if a wine region has a perceived issue with most of the public, then it becomes less available to us. On the flip side, if those styles are selling well, there is temptation for others to move that direction. Lets face it, as much as we berserkers love them, most people are not drinking Marcus and Jim's wines from Oregon. Theyre drinking Wagners (shudder). if that's how people are picturing Oregon, then that would explain where the entire impetus of this thread comes from.

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm

Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
please feel free to continue this conversation! I think its super interesting. plus its fun because I'm hoping to taste at both of your wineries soon! haha

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#56 Post by Gary York » February 6th, 2019, 8:02 am

I can tell you that one of the reasons people are interested in Oregon PN is they are a value. True or not. Certainly not the only reason but one of them. And if you are looking for the Oregon VS Burgundy thing then you are much more into wine than most. Average consumer thinks Burgundy is preceded by the word "hearty".
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#57 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 8:09 am

Mattstolz wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:20 pm
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 4:48 pm
No comparison if we are talking whites (in my book) - The Maconnais and the Cotes de Chalonnaise are two of my favorite white appellations in the world - with SO MANY great wines under $30 -

A good search does turn up some wonderful Pinot Noirs under $30 in Oregon - but we are talking about much different styles of wine. If you like a jammier style of Pinot; than Oregon - I tend to like the racier lesser appellations of Burgundy; Haute Cotes de Nuits, Mercurey, Givry etc -
I agree about the whites, especially when you include Chablis in the mix, Burgundy has some of the best bang for your buck whites I can think of. Also true when including Aligote.
Can’t argue this one for now. Give is another 5-10 years and it will be MUCH closer. The gap is narrowing already, qulity in Oregon is elevating rapidly. But Oregon pricing for Chardonnay is still oriented to the fact that there just isn’t that much Chardonnay planted in the Valley yet(which is changing).

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#58 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm
A slight tangent but I'm finding it harder to find sub $30 AUD Pinot Noir domestically here in Australia. I was over in the Mornington Peninsula early last year and my plan was to find as many under $30 AUD pinots as possible that suited my palate as a daily quaffer. My reasoning is that from ~$40 AUD and upwards I can land Burgundy that's better suited to my tastes and often I find in the $50 and up category domestic pinot is (in broad brushstrokes) over extracted and over oaked.

Anyway, after a half dozen cellar door visits I found exactly 1 pinot that suited my requirements from a price and palate perspective. Most cellar doors didn't even have an offering at $30 or under.

Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#59 Post by Jeff Vaughan » February 6th, 2019, 8:37 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:09 am
Mattstolz wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:20 pm

I agree about the whites, especially when you include Chablis in the mix, Burgundy has some of the best bang for your buck whites I can think of. Also true when including Aligote.
Can’t argue this one for now. Give is another 5-10 years and it will be MUCH closer. The gap is narrowing already, qulity in Oregon is elevating rapidly. But Oregon pricing for Chardonnay is still oriented to the fact that there just isn’t that much Chardonnay planted in the Valley yet(which is changing).
Marcus, that is good to hear. I have been very impressed with Oregon Chardonnay. Even at $40-$50 I think they are good values and competitive with France. At $20, my first instinct would be to look at Chablis or Beaune. I'd love to see that change.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#60 Post by Jim Anderson » February 6th, 2019, 8:46 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am
Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm
A slight tangent but I'm finding it harder to find sub $30 AUD Pinot Noir domestically here in Australia. I was over in the Mornington Peninsula early last year and my plan was to find as many under $30 AUD pinots as possible that suited my palate as a daily quaffer. My reasoning is that from ~$40 AUD and upwards I can land Burgundy that's better suited to my tastes and often I find in the $50 and up category domestic pinot is (in broad brushstrokes) over extracted and over oaked.

Anyway, after a half dozen cellar door visits I found exactly 1 pinot that suited my requirements from a price and palate perspective. Most cellar doors didn't even have an offering at $30 or under.

Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.
I would second what Marcus is stating here. We specifically had to stop pouring the WV Reserve PN ($27) at the winery. People simply do not buy it from us. We make (at least recently) over 6,000 cases of it so odds are decent people can find it in their home markets and, while (IMO) very good our single vineyard wines are clearly better, more interesting and harder to come by. Even the Estate, Lia’s, Freedom Hill and Balcombe all at $37 have a low purchase rate at the winery while being staples with our distributors. I can’t speak for what other wineries have going on (you would be shocked at my level of out-of-touchness) but we simply have responded to what people are clearly telling us they want to hear about, learn about, taste and buy.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#61 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 8:49 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:16 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:04 pm


Why would any of us consumers care about wines (from Burgundy or Oregon) from less than stellar producers. We come here to learn who the stellar producers are.
I hear what you’re saying, but...In a regional conversation, we need to include the non-elite. because often, but not always in wine, as in politics, as soon as someone starts to be wrong in regional commentary they usually reach for the low performers to shore up their arguments.
I just don’t buy it. I guess most of us cannot participate in these regional discussions be cause we don’t seek out the mediocre and poor producers of any region. I have no idea what the worst producers are doing in Oregon or Burgundy. Nor do I care.

Why don’t you then suggest some truly horrible wines from Burgundy and Oregon for the OP to waste his money on in doing a comparison. Not sure what he will learn from this but sure, knock yourself out.
Nobody said the OP needs to taste through the weeds. But it bears mentioning for those people tasting Jouan off this thread that those wines are overperformers for the region. Same goes for Evesham Wood.

And you might note that the OPs thread is Burgundy vs Oregon, so it’s a regional conversation. The mentions just for Oregon on this thread already run the gamut from Sineann to Goodfellow, and while Peter Rossback makes excellent wines they are extremely different from most of the wineries Trimpi and I listed.

So perhaps you’ll indulge me in talking about more than just my own personal darlings, or yours(I am well aware of your fondness for H-N from many other threads)...at no cost to you beyond the time to skim past my posts. You don’t have to buy any of them.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#62 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 8:55 am

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:50 am


Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?
We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
We’re grafting another 1.25 acres, cuttings are from Clos Electrique. John was extremely generous with offering the selection of heirloom clones he has planted. We have 3 Dijon clone and 108 at WR already. I picked up 4 heirloom clones from John plus wood from a massale selection of the Mt. Eden vineyard that he did before coming up to Oregon.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#63 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 6th, 2019, 9:28 am

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm
Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.
Andrew, it really depends where you look. For value wines, wineries and tasting rooms are typically not the best bet. Producers tend to want to highlight their "better" (i.e.: more expensive) efforts. Supermarkets and wine shops can offer better value. I just browsed through the inventory at a Portland wine shop and found 15 different < $30 Pinots that I'd happily try including producers like Marcus (Matello, Goodfellow), Belle Pente, Crowley, Kelley Fox and Westrey.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#64 Post by Mattstolz » February 6th, 2019, 10:07 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:09 am
Can’t argue this one for now. Give is another 5-10 years and it will be MUCH closer. The gap is narrowing already, qulity in Oregon is elevating rapidly. But Oregon pricing for Chardonnay is still oriented to the fact that there just isn’t that much Chardonnay planted in the Valley yet(which is changing).
I'm with you on that for sure. most of the Chard I've had from the producers we're talking about mostly in this thread from WV has been fantastic. Some of the pinot gris ive had has blown me away as well. that's part of why I'm excited to see you and Jim talking about grafting over some more chard

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#65 Post by Scott Tallman » February 6th, 2019, 10:23 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:55 am
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm


We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
We’re grafting another 1.25 acres, cuttings are from Clos Electrique. John was extremely generous with offering the selection of heirloom clones he has planted. We have 3 Dijon clone and 108 at WR already. I picked up 4 heirloom clones from John plus wood from a massale selection of the Mt. Eden vineyard that he did before coming up to Oregon.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#66 Post by James Lyon » February 6th, 2019, 10:41 am

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:50 am


Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?
We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
Pained? Heck, I was trying to figure out the best logistics to join the party on Friday. Just kidding. I'll be in NYC for the SO's 40th bday, but I look forward to seeing you both towards the end of June.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#67 Post by James Lyon » February 6th, 2019, 10:57 am

And I agree with others. There are plenty of worthwhile sub $30 Oregon Pinot and Chardonnay.

If based in Raleigh, the podcaster should have plenty of quality sub $30 Oregon options at her disposal. If I remember the stat correctly, the state of NC is like the 4th or 5th largest consumer of Oregon Pinot in the country. Or better yet, send her my way and I'll be glad to open some bottles.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#68 Post by lleichtman » February 6th, 2019, 1:08 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
OK, when and where are you doing this tasting? champagne.gif
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#69 Post by Mattstolz » February 6th, 2019, 3:08 pm

James Lyon wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
And I agree with others. There are plenty of worthwhile sub $30 Oregon Pinot and Chardonnay.

If based in Raleigh, the podcaster should have plenty of quality sub $30 Oregon options at her disposal. If I remember the stat correctly, the state of NC is like the 4th or 5th largest consumer of Oregon Pinot in the country. Or better yet, send her my way and I'll be glad to open some bottles.

James
I commented back and forth with her on a thread on Facebook, and it seems to me like her statement is based more on personal preference. she has had most of the wines I would suggest in the 15-25 range like Chehalem, willamette valley vineyards, eyrie, illahe, Patricia green, etc, and said she preferred region level wines like 15 and 16 Faiveley that are in a similar range. That sounds to me like a difference in tastes. I have an issue with that though because she is presenting it like her personal preference is a general rule that Oregon pinot is inconsistent. a good podcaster who is presenting themselves like she is I think should be able to recognize that personally preferring a different wine style does not mean the other is bad.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#70 Post by S t e p h e nK » February 6th, 2019, 3:11 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:55 am
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm


We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
We’re grafting another 1.25 acres, cuttings are from Clos Electrique. John was extremely generous with offering the selection of heirloom clones he has planted. We have 3 Dijon clone and 108 at WR already. I picked up 4 heirloom clones from John plus wood from a massale selection of the Mt. Eden vineyard that he did before coming up to Oregon.
Fantastic! champagne.gif John has a great story how he taught himself how to graft.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#71 Post by S t e p h e nK » February 6th, 2019, 3:22 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:08 pm
James Lyon wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
And I agree with others. There are plenty of worthwhile sub $30 Oregon Pinot and Chardonnay.

If based in Raleigh, the podcaster should have plenty of quality sub $30 Oregon options at her disposal. If I remember the stat correctly, the state of NC is like the 4th or 5th largest consumer of Oregon Pinot in the country. Or better yet, send her my way and I'll be glad to open some bottles.

James
I commented back and forth with her on a thread on Facebook, and it seems to me like her statement is based more on personal preference. she has had most of the wines I would suggest in the 15-25 range like Chehalem, willamette valley vineyards, eyrie, illahe, Patricia green, etc, and said she preferred region level wines like 15 and 16 Faiveley that are in a similar range. That sounds to me like a difference in tastes. I have an issue with that though because she is presenting it like her personal preference is a general rule that Oregon pinot is inconsistent. a good podcaster who is presenting themselves like she is I think should be able to recognize that personally preferring a different wine style does not mean the other is bad.
This.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#72 Post by Jim Stewart » February 6th, 2019, 3:26 pm

I feel a bit like I am eavesdropping . . . !?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#73 Post by Viet Ly » February 6th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 5:30 am
JordanL wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:37 pm
I think Wine for Normal People sort of has this weird Anti-New World agenda. The few episodes I listened to that praise New World wines are usually from winemakers who stick to the old world style.
its weird because she hosts Sonoma wine events. mostly, I think her opinions are inconsistent. she is typically anti-big winery but in this podcasts states the big wineries are good for Oregon. she likes value but posts on facebook more often about wines she doesn't like than ones she does. its strange.
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:16 pm
I just don’t buy it. I guess most of us cannot participate in these regional discussions be cause we don’t seek out the mediocre and poor producers of any region. I have no idea what the worst producers are doing in Oregon or Burgundy. Nor do I care.

Why don’t you then suggest some truly horrible wines from Burgundy and Oregon for the OP to waste his money on in doing a comparison. Not sure what he will learn from this but sure, knock yourself out.
I think the conversation is important to have because most people drinking wine from a region are not drinking the best of the best. theyre drinking the most available. if a wine region has a perceived issue with most of the public, then it becomes less available to us. On the flip side, if those styles are selling well, there is temptation for others to move that direction. Lets face it, as much as we berserkers love them, most people are not drinking Marcus and Jim's wines from Oregon. Theyre drinking Wagners (shudder). if that's how people are picturing Oregon, then that would explain where the entire impetus of this thread comes from.

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:33 pm

Friday would work. Be great to have you come in and taste and set up a quid pro quo. I have a new employee and she could definitely use as much exposure to all things wine as is possible. Are you grafting over stuff at WR to Chardonnay? I’m grafting over 2 acres of PN from a block that is clearly better for Chard. Got cuttings from Brick House. Maybe we can take this off the board after this so people don’t have to be pained by our scheduling plans.
please feel free to continue this conversation! I think its super interesting. plus its fun because I'm hoping to taste at both of your wineries soon! haha
Jordan, I agree that she is anti "big" wine, interesting that she worked for a large wine company before (I think Gallo?).

Matt, I agree with you regarding her inconsistent opinions. I'd probably be inconsistent if I was talking for an hour in a podcast over many years.

Edit yup she said it whoops

Ian: Todd is a big Packers fan cheesehead
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#74 Post by Howard Cooper » February 6th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:08 pm
James Lyon wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
And I agree with others. There are plenty of worthwhile sub $30 Oregon Pinot and Chardonnay.

If based in Raleigh, the podcaster should have plenty of quality sub $30 Oregon options at her disposal. If I remember the stat correctly, the state of NC is like the 4th or 5th largest consumer of Oregon Pinot in the country. Or better yet, send her my way and I'll be glad to open some bottles.

James
I commented back and forth with her on a thread on Facebook, and it seems to me like her statement is based more on personal preference. she has had most of the wines I would suggest in the 15-25 range like Chehalem, willamette valley vineyards, eyrie, illahe, Patricia green, etc, and said she preferred region level wines like 15 and 16 Faiveley that are in a similar range. That sounds to me like a difference in tastes. I have an issue with that though because she is presenting it like her personal preference is a general rule that Oregon pinot is inconsistent. a good podcaster who is presenting themselves like she is I think should be able to recognize that personally preferring a different wine style does not mean the other is bad.
In other words, your personal preference is for the wines of Oregon. I mean, look, most things in wine are about personal preference.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#75 Post by Mike Maguire » February 6th, 2019, 3:41 pm

I don’t have a huge sample size, but I would give the edge to Burgundy.Many more memorable Bourgogne Rouges
Than entry level Ore. Pinots.Now the level tilts Ore. when you go +$50-100.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#76 Post by Howard Cooper » February 6th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:49 am
I am well aware of your fondness for H-N from many other threads
You make that sound like a bad thing. Yes, I love the wines from H-N. In fact, most of the wines I discuss on this board from anywhere in the world (particularly the ones I recommend) are personal darlings. I would have a hard time recommending a wine to others that is not a personal darling. More and more, the wines I buy for my personal cellar are personal darlings. Why would it be any other way?
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#77 Post by James Billy » February 6th, 2019, 3:47 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:08 pm
James Lyon wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:57 am
And I agree with others. There are plenty of worthwhile sub $30 Oregon Pinot and Chardonnay.

If based in Raleigh, the podcaster should have plenty of quality sub $30 Oregon options at her disposal. If I remember the stat correctly, the state of NC is like the 4th or 5th largest consumer of Oregon Pinot in the country. Or better yet, send her my way and I'll be glad to open some bottles.

James
I commented back and forth with her on a thread on Facebook, and it seems to me like her statement is based more on personal preference. she has had most of the wines I would suggest in the 15-25 range like Chehalem, willamette valley vineyards, eyrie, illahe, Patricia green, etc, and said she preferred region level wines like 15 and 16 Faiveley that are in a similar range. That sounds to me like a difference in tastes. I have an issue with that though because she is presenting it like her personal preference is a general rule that Oregon pinot is inconsistent. a good podcaster who is presenting themselves like she is I think should be able to recognize that personally preferring a different wine style does not mean the other is bad.
What is 'best' is always going to be a personal preference. What else could it be? So, why knock her?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#78 Post by Howard Cooper » February 6th, 2019, 3:48 pm

lleichtman wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:08 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
OK, when and where are you doing this tasting? champagne.gif
I live in the DC area. I am part of a wine tasting group that has a tasting (often but not always Burgundy) every month. Let me know when you come to town. My only caveat is that we generally are not drinking wines with this price limit, although I often drink them at home.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#79 Post by James Billy » February 6th, 2019, 3:55 pm

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm
A slight tangent but I'm finding it harder to find sub $30 AUD Pinot Noir domestically here in Australia. I was over in the Mornington Peninsula early last year and my plan was to find as many under $30 AUD pinots as possible that suited my palate as a daily quaffer. My reasoning is that from ~$40 AUD and upwards I can land Burgundy that's better suited to my tastes and often I find in the $50 and up category domestic pinot is (in broad brushstrokes) over extracted and over oaked.

Anyway, after a half dozen cellar door visits I found exactly 1 pinot that suited my requirements from a price and palate perspective. Most cellar doors didn't even have an offering at $30 or under.

Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.
Andrew, AUD30 is about $20. It's interesting that you used $50 as a benchmark in the US. That's more than double your Australian benchmark!

How would you compare US pinots with Aussie ones in terms of color, tannin, acid, primary fruit and secondary flavours? Which ones do you generally prefer at these price points WV or Australian?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#80 Post by Tim Heaton » February 6th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Sicily
ITB
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#81 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 5:59 pm

Tim Heaton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 4:27 pm
Sicily
Great thought.

I won’t give it the trophy without an argument, but I’d be happy to work through the wines you think deserve the nod for Sicily(I am assuming you mean higher elevation producers...and you can tell me the wineries to pass on as well.)

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#82 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:48 pm
lleichtman wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:08 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
OK, when and where are you doing this tasting? champagne.gif
I live in the DC area. I am part of a wine tasting group that has a tasting (often but not always Burgundy) every month. Let me know when you come to town. My only caveat is that we generally are not drinking wines with this price limit, although I often drink them at home.
I’ll be in DC the last Mon/Tues in April. I’m hoping to get together with a couple of other Berserkers when I am there. If you want to do a friendly Burgundy/Oregon tasting then, l am happy to contribute some Oregon and a couple of Burgs as well.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#83 Post by Mattstolz » February 6th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:38 pm
James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:47 pm
Mattstolz wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:08 pm
I commented back and forth with her on a thread on Facebook, and it seems to me like her statement is based more on personal preference. she has had most of the wines I would suggest in the 15-25 range like Chehalem, willamette valley vineyards, eyrie, illahe, Patricia green, etc, and said she preferred region level wines like 15 and 16 Faiveley that are in a similar range. That sounds to me like a difference in tastes. I have an issue with that though because she is presenting it like her personal preference is a general rule that Oregon pinot is inconsistent. a good podcaster who is presenting themselves like she is I think should be able to recognize that personally preferring a different wine style does not mean the other is bad.
What is 'best' is always going to be a personal preference. What else could it be? So, why knock her?
In other words, your personal preference is for the wines of Oregon. I mean, look, most things in wine are about personal preference.
my personal preference in this price category is Oregon. Overall, it is split pretty evenly. but I'm also not gonna claim that this makes either region inconsistent because its not my personal preference. she has a large listenership, and is presenting this podcast as an informative overview of Oregon, and calling it inconsistent because she doesn't prefer it to Burgundy. I have an issue with that, not with having a preference. feel like I'm not explaining why I think the two are different... but its not presented as a preference but as a fact.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#84 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 9:57 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.
Thanks for the response Marcus, I do appreciate it. Next time I’m over I’ll make a serious attempt to taste some of the wines you make and will reach out in advance to see if I can make it happen. FYI off the top of my head we tasted at Durant, White Rose, J. Christopher, and at least one other producer I’m struggling to recall at the moment. I could look back at my notes if you’re curious.

I’ve had a bit of a look at the three producers I can remember and it appears that J. Christopher is the only one we visited that even has a sub $30 USD WV PN on offer. And as you’ve alluded to that wasn’t being poured at the Cellar Door. Durant’s PNs start at $45 USD and White Rose at $50 (at least according to their web sites). That said I’ll take your advice and next time I’ll ask during the tasting if there are other wines available that aren’t normally poured. Couldn’t hurt, right? :D

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#85 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 9:59 pm

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:46 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.
I would second what Marcus is stating here. We specifically had to stop pouring the WV Reserve PN ($27) at the winery. People simply do not buy it from us. We make (at least recently) over 6,000 cases of it so odds are decent people can find it in their home markets and, while (IMO) very good our single vineyard wines are clearly better, more interesting and harder to come by. Even the Estate, Lia’s, Freedom Hill and Balcombe all at $37 have a low purchase rate at the winery while being staples with our distributors. I can’t speak for what other wineries have going on (you would be shocked at my level of out-of-touchness) but we simply have responded to what people are clearly telling us they want to hear about, learn about, taste and buy.
Thanks Jim. FYI I wanted to come down and taste at PGC, all considered you’re my favourite producer in the WV. Years ago I tasted at your cellars and was very impressed. It was quite a sizeable tasting as well so I can see where you’re coming from regarding the need to be somewhat selective with what you do and don’t pour. Sadly we couldn’t get through to confirm you were open when we visited on December 19th. Next time I’ll put in more effort to organise tastings in advance.

For my palate your Estate Ribbon Ridge Old Vine Pinot Noir is excellent, especially for the price point. I’ve schlepped a number of those bottles over here in the past decade or so. They always show well to the domestic audience and are quite a curiosity down here as there’s very little Oregon PN here full stop. Funnily enough Daniel Airoldi (Airoldi Fine Wines) is now stocking a couple of your 2016s “exclusively” here in Australia. I’ve met Daniel a few times now, he’s a French Australian who is doing very good things regarding direct importing wines to the Australian market. It appears you’re the only Oregon producer he has on his web site. Kudos!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#86 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 9:28 am
Andrew, it really depends where you look. For value wines, wineries and tasting rooms are typically not the best bet. Producers tend to want to highlight their "better" (i.e.: more expensive) efforts. Supermarkets and wine shops can offer better value. I just browsed through the inventory at a Portland wine shop and found 15 different < $30 Pinots that I'd happily try including producers like Marcus (Matello, Goodfellow), Belle Pente, Crowley, Kelley Fox and Westrey.

RT
Thanks Rich, I’ll make sure to swing by somewhere like Liner & Elsen and do a bit of a big buy next time I’m over. When my wife and I visit Portland these days we stay with her mate who lives there. She’s a big WV PN fan and a member of more than one mailing list (Soter and Durant of the top of my head) so quite often she just has a dig though the basement and pulls out stuff for us to look at. I always bring wine from Australia as well, so normally we’re pretty well stocked without even leaving the house!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#87 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 10:07 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:55 pm
Andrew, AUD30 is about $20. It's interesting that you used $50 as a benchmark in the US. That's more than double your Australian benchmark!
Don't worry, I'm painfully aware of the current exchange rate. [soap.gif]

Sorry for the confusion, I was using the $30 AUD price point to attempt to provide a comparison price point here in Australia for the discussion/poll that OP posted. That said funnily enough here in Australia the price point for mid tier and higher is roughly $50-$60 AUD per. Moorooduc Estate was probably the producer who impressed me most when we were in Mornington early 2018, you can see their wines and pricing here.

https://www.moorooducestate.com.au/buy-wine/
James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:55 pm
How would you compare US pinots with Aussie ones in terms of color, tannin, acid, primary fruit and secondary flavours? Which ones do you generally prefer at these price points WV or Australian?
Broad brush strokes I’d say they’re very comparable. You have a wide range of styles over there, as we do here. Pricing is reasonable to astronomical, just like over there. Heck, I just realised today that Bass Phillips Reserve Pinot Noir here in Australia has an average price of over $700 AUD on Wine Searcher! I’m not certain what the most expensive WV Pinot would be, but I’d be surprised if it was north of that!

I can’t really comment regarding Cali Pinot, I could count on one hand the number of those wines I’ve had. But I’ve been going to WV every few years now for over a decade as my wife and I both have good friends in Portland. All considered I do believe that the WV has a step above Australia in PN pound for pound but I do believe the gap has closed quite considerably over the past 5 or so years.

One difference I will call out is it appears that quite a bit of grape production in WV is by growers who own vineyards, not the estates that produce the wines. And these growers sell their fruit to multiple wineries annually. That was a bit of an eye opener for me as here in Australia most wineries own the vineyards their fruit comes from (especially with their higher tier/more expensive offerings) and as such most named vineyards in Australia are effectively monopoles. I had always mistakenly assumed that would be the case in Oregon. I think it’s a value add as you can taste though wines produced from different wineries with the same fruit which should highlight both the terroir characteristics as well as producer signatures more readily.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#88 Post by Gary York » February 6th, 2019, 10:24 pm

I guess I would give the nod to Oregon. It used to be very close, but the last couple of vintages in Burgundy has opened the gap. Really hard to find something to drink from Burgundy below $35.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#89 Post by James Billy » February 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Thanks Andrew. Would you say that Oregon pinots can often taste more like Burgundy than Australian versions, but when it comes to Chardonnay, the opposite is often true?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#90 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 10:30 pm

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 9:57 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.
Thanks for the response Marcus, I do appreciate it. Next time I’m over I’ll make a serious attempt to taste some of the wines you make and will reach out in advance to see if I can make it happen. FYI off the top of my head we tasted at Durant, White Rose, J. Christopher, and at least one other producer I’m struggling to recall at the moment. I could look back at my notes if you’re curious.

I’ve had a bit of a look at the three producers I can remember and it appears that J. Christopher is the only one we visited that even has a sub $30 USD WV PN on offer. And as you’ve alluded to that wasn’t being poured at the Cellar Door. Durant’s PNs start at $45 USD and White Rose at $50 (at least according to their web sites). That said I’ll take your advice and next time I’ll ask during the tasting if there are other wines available that aren’t normally poured. Couldn’t hurt, right? :D
It certainly can’t hurt. The entry level J. Christopher wine is usually great. If you can make it my way, I’ll be happy to show you a few really solid sub-$30 wines(although not all Pinot Noir). Definitely hit up some other folks listed here too.
Or reach out to Sec or Vinopolis and you can grab a few mixed cases of Tuesday night wines!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#91 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 10:32 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Thanks Andrew. Would you say that Oregon pinots can often taste more like Burgundy than Australian versions, but when it comes to Chardonnay, the opposite is often true?
Them’s some fightin’ words(regarding Chardonnay)! [wink.gif]

But I would love to know which Australian Chardonnays I should be looking for? And that said, I tasted with the winemaker from Yabby Lake(Mornington Peninsula) and the Chardonnays were probably the best screwcapped wines of that varietal that I have had.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#92 Post by James Billy » February 6th, 2019, 10:54 pm

Lots better than Yabby Lakes! Leeuwin and Giaconda are the most famous for a reason, but there are dozens. It depends on your tastes. Even Penfolds does some good versions!

I'm sure the Aussies on here can guide you.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#93 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 6th, 2019, 11:07 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:54 pm
Lots better than Yabby Lakes! Leeuwin and Giaconda are the most famous for a reason, but there are dozens. It depends on your tastes. Even Penfolds does some good versions!

I'm sure the Aussies on here can guide you.
Leeuwin I know and enjoy quite a bit, although I am not sure I would go more Burgundian than most of the better Willamette Valley producers(also not below $30, although that also holds true for most top WV Chardonnays as well).

Giaconda, I will look for.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#94 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 11:46 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Thanks Andrew. Would you say that Oregon pinots can often taste more like Burgundy than Australian versions, but when it comes to Chardonnay, the opposite is often true?
I wouldn’t say that to be honest James, primarily because there’s so much difference between producers in each region that you can easily confuse all but the best of palates with cherry picked examples.

But in general I’d say that Oregon and Australian pinots have more in common with one another than Burgundy has with either of them. So for mine the hierarchy would be Burgundy > Oregon > Australia. More often than not I find new world pinot to be somewhat softer and sweeter than Burgundy. I also think the high acidity and tension in Burgundy pinot is one of the things that I enjoy most in those wines. It always keeps me coming back!

Chardonnay is much the same. You can still find butter bombs in Australia despite the widespread shift domestically to earlier harvest and much less new oak and toast. Still, I really enjoyed J. Christopher’s 2017 Olenik Vineyard Chardonnay and was going to bring a bottle back here with me and found it very well made without it being overdone. Sadly I had limited space and that bottle got bumped (and consumed) to make room for a 2015 Dauvissat La Forest that I stumbled across later in the trip.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#95 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 11:47 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:30 pm
It certainly can’t hurt. The entry level J. Christopher wine is usually great. If you can make it my way, I’ll be happy to show you a few really solid sub-$30 wines(although not all Pinot Noir).
I’ll keep you in mind for the next trip. I always bring some bottles with me when I visit the states so I’m sure I’ll be able to show you a bottle or two that you’ve most likely not come across before to return the favour.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#96 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 6th, 2019, 11:50 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:32 pm
James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Thanks Andrew. Would you say that Oregon pinots can often taste more like Burgundy than Australian versions, but when it comes to Chardonnay, the opposite is often true?
Them’s some fightin’ words(regarding Chardonnay)! [wink.gif]

But I would love to know which Australian Chardonnays I should be looking for? And that said, I tasted with the winemaker from Yabby Lake(Mornington Peninsula) and the Chardonnays were probably the best screwcapped wines of that varietal that I have had.
That’s quite funny. It was the Yabby Lake “Red Claw” pinot that I was referring to in my original response as the one domestic PN that was sub $30 AUD from my trip there last year! We decided to taste there on a whim late in the afternoon as they were open quite late. It was a great tasting.

Of course Jeremy Holmes would be able to be much more helpful regarding Aussie Chardy but in general Margaret River is still producing good Chardonnay and has moved more towards the leaner style. I’m quite fond of the Deep Woods Reserve Chardonnay, especially for the price point. I also enjoy Cullen’s Kevin John but the pricing for their 2017 has hit $127AUD which is a lot of money for MR Chardonnay. LEAS is a perennial favourite of many but it’s not on my radar.

I’m also quite interested in the Great Southern region here in Western Australia, it is further south from Margaret River and yet still benefits from a maritime climate in many spots. Locally they’re described as more “Chablis” styled when compared to Margaret River. For my palate that’s a bonus and the wines are definitely more keenly priced than Margaret River. There’s also quite a lot of pinot being grown there too so If I’m trying to go tasting without jumping on a plane that’s my go to. Singlefile, Castelli Estate, and Castle Rock Estate are all producing good wines annually along with anything else Rob Diletti makes down there.

Outside of WA Tolpuddle in Tasmania is making quite exceptional Chardonnay. Tassie in general is really climbing the quality (and global warming?) ladder quickly. Penfolds Bin A Chardonnay is very Burgundian and more affordable than the Yattarna. I reckon blind it would surprise many a seasoned taster!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#97 Post by James Billy » February 7th, 2019, 1:07 am

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 11:50 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:32 pm
James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Thanks Andrew. Would you say that Oregon pinots can often taste more like Burgundy than Australian versions, but when it comes to Chardonnay, the opposite is often true?
Them’s some fightin’ words(regarding Chardonnay)! [wink.gif]

But I would love to know which Australian Chardonnays I should be looking for? And that said, I tasted with the winemaker from Yabby Lake(Mornington Peninsula) and the Chardonnays were probably the best screwcapped wines of that varietal that I have had.
That’s quite funny. It was the Yabby Lake “Red Claw” pinot that I was referring to in my original response as the one domestic PN that was sub $30 AUD from my trip there last year! We decided to taste there on a whim late in the afternoon as they were open quite late. It was a great tasting.

Of course Jeremy Holmes would be able to be much more helpful regarding Aussie Chardy but in general Margaret River is still producing good Chardonnay and has moved more towards the leaner style. I’m quite fond of the Deep Woods Reserve Chardonnay, especially for the price point. I also enjoy Cullen’s Kevin John but the pricing for their 2017 has hit $127AUD which is a lot of money for MR Chardonnay. LEAS is a perennial favourite of many but it’s not on my radar.

I’m also quite interested in the Great Southern region here in Western Australia, it is further south from Margaret River and yet still benefits from a maritime climate in many spots. Locally they’re described as more “Chablis” styled when compared to Margaret River. For my palate that’s a bonus and the wines are definitely more keenly priced than Margaret River. There’s also quite a lot of pinot being grown there too so If I’m trying to go tasting without jumping on a plane that’s my go to. Singlefile, Castelli Estate, and Castle Rock Estate are all producing good wines annually along with anything else Rob Diletti makes down there.

Outside of WA Tolpuddle in Tasmania is making quite exceptional Chardonnay. Tassie in general is really climbing the quality (and global warming?) ladder quickly. Penfolds Bin A Chardonnay is very Burgundian and more affordable than the Yattarna. I reckon blind it would surprise many a seasoned taster!
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 11:07 pm
James Billy wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 10:54 pm
Lots better than Yabby Lakes! Leeuwin and Giaconda are the most famous for a reason, but there are dozens. It depends on your tastes. Even Penfolds does some good versions!

I'm sure the Aussies on here can guide you.
Leeuwin I know and enjoy quite a bit, although I am not sure I would go more Burgundian than most of the better Willamette Valley producers(also not below $30, although that also holds true for most top WV Chardonnays as well).

Giaconda, I will look for.
I'd say costal Victorian Chardonnays (like your Mornington Yabby Lake) are the most Burgundian. I'm not surprised that you find Leeuwin less so, Marcus, as Andrew implied, Western Australian chardonnays are much bigger even if there is a stylistic change going on (according to Andrew.)

Jeremy is a fan of Penfold's whites. Maybe that's because he's South Australian-based neener

Tasmania is still finding its feet. The greatest potential is said to be there, but that's maybe because it's the coolest. Does that mean Chablis is better than Cote d'Or?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#98 Post by Pirom P. » February 7th, 2019, 1:26 am

Oregon easy.

I recently was at a blind tasting where this was put to the test: 8 flights that consisted of one OR and one Burg side by side. The somm tasted through all of the wines before and paired them based on body so you didn't have one full bodied fruit bomb next to something that was super light.

For 6 out of 8 flights, OR was clearly the better wine.

For me buying "cheap" Burgundy unfortunately is just a waste of money. Yes you can get good village wines from stellar producers, but these are often more than $20-30 and often start at the $40+ range. At that price point, you're getting some top tier OR wines.

That being said I'll include Beaujolais because i feel that there are maybe 6-7 really good producers of Beauj at the moment and this whole idea that Beaujolais as a region is doing amazing wine is one i disagree on.

Unfortunately one has to be super careful on buying Burgs below the $70-100 mark IMO.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#99 Post by James Billy » February 7th, 2019, 2:30 am

At risk of repeating myself, it's all opinion. The two wines are different. One is lean, acidic and rustic, the other is smooth, pleasurable and delicious. Why would anyone choose Burgundy? [berserker.gif]

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#100 Post by Thomas Keim » February 7th, 2019, 6:32 am

Pirom P. wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 1:26 am
That being said I'll include Beaujolais because i feel that there are maybe 6-7 really good producers of Beauj at the moment and this whole idea that Beaujolais as a region is doing amazing wine is one i disagree on.
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