[Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

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Who has the better $20-30 wines?

Poll ended at February 9th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Oregon
97
65%
Burgundy
52
35%
 
Total votes: 149

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Mattstolz
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#101 Post by Mattstolz » February 7th, 2019, 8:33 am

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 6:32 am
Pirom P. wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 1:26 am
That being said I'll include Beaujolais because i feel that there are maybe 6-7 really good producers of Beauj at the moment and this whole idea that Beaujolais as a region is doing amazing wine is one i disagree on.
You really need to get out more...
meh... there is still a sea of pretty much just ok at best wine coming out of Beaujolais. there is DEFINITELY some great ones too, but I think this plays into the conversation above about discussing the lower tier producers along with the upper ones. the lower ones have to be acknowledged because most people walking into Total Wine or Publix are not walking out with Lapierre Morgon. theyre walking about with Beauj. Nouveau form some random producer and wondering what the hype is about.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#102 Post by Thomas Keim » February 7th, 2019, 9:51 am

Mattstolz wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 8:33 am
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 6:32 am
Pirom P. wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 1:26 am
That being said I'll include Beaujolais because i feel that there are maybe 6-7 really good producers of Beauj at the moment and this whole idea that Beaujolais as a region is doing amazing wine is one i disagree on.
You really need to get out more...
meh... there is still a sea of pretty much just ok at best wine coming out of Beaujolais. there is DEFINITELY some great ones too, but I think this plays into the conversation above about discussing the lower tier producers along with the upper ones. the lower ones have to be acknowledged because most people walking into Total Wine or Publix are not walking out with Lapierre Morgon. theyre walking about with Beauj. Nouveau form some random producer and wondering what the hype is about.
More people are walking out the retail door with Beaujolais than any $30 Burgundy or Oregon Pinot Noir. There are over 4,000 grower/producers in Beaujolais, and over 20 co-ops. So let's say 10% of Oregon's producers are making great value wines, and 10% of Burgundy's producers are doing the same. Do the same with Beaujolais, and you have 400 serious wines. I dare you to find 40 great value red Burgundies or 40 value Pinot Noirs from Oregon.

Just last night I opened a bottle of 2016 Beaujolais Villages from the Domaine de la Madone, small grower, old vines, $15 retail. It was absolutely stunning for the money. Please find me a wine in Oregon that can come "close" to this in quality for that money -
Last edited by Thomas Keim on February 7th, 2019, 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#103 Post by Jim Anderson » February 7th, 2019, 9:54 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 6:02 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 3:48 pm
lleichtman wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:08 pm


OK, when and where are you doing this tasting? champagne.gif
I live in the DC area. I am part of a wine tasting group that has a tasting (often but not always Burgundy) every month. Let me know when you come to town. My only caveat is that we generally are not drinking wines with this price limit, although I often drink them at home.
I’ll be in DC the last Mon/Tues in April. I’m hoping to get together with a couple of other Berserkers when I am there. If you want to do a friendly Burgundy/Oregon tasting then, l am happy to contribute some Oregon and a couple of Burgs as well.
I am going to be in VA the 29th and 30th. That might mean DC. Not sure yet. Are those the days you are talking about?
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#104 Post by Jim Anderson » February 7th, 2019, 10:00 am

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 9:59 pm
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:46 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 8:34 am
Hi Andrew,

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t see many inexpensive Pinot Noirs during your visit to the Willamette Valley.
There’s been a good number of producers making a good-great entry level Pinot Noir on the thread, so I won’t restate them.

But I rarely pour the Willamette Valley bottling($23) for visitors. I make about 18 wines and that’s just too many for an appointment. I generally focus on the vineyard designates, because in my opinion, that’s the most important thing for me to impart. But if you have a specific need, you might ask the host for options.
I would second what Marcus is stating here. We specifically had to stop pouring the WV Reserve PN ($27) at the winery. People simply do not buy it from us. We make (at least recently) over 6,000 cases of it so odds are decent people can find it in their home markets and, while (IMO) very good our single vineyard wines are clearly better, more interesting and harder to come by. Even the Estate, Lia’s, Freedom Hill and Balcombe all at $37 have a low purchase rate at the winery while being staples with our distributors. I can’t speak for what other wineries have going on (you would be shocked at my level of out-of-touchness) but we simply have responded to what people are clearly telling us they want to hear about, learn about, taste and buy.
Thanks Jim. FYI I wanted to come down and taste at PGC, all considered you’re my favourite producer in the WV. Years ago I tasted at your cellars and was very impressed. It was quite a sizeable tasting as well so I can see where you’re coming from regarding the need to be somewhat selective with what you do and don’t pour. Sadly we couldn’t get through to confirm you were open when we visited on December 19th. Next time I’ll put in more effort to organise tastings in advance.

For my palate your Estate Ribbon Ridge Old Vine Pinot Noir is excellent, especially for the price point. I’ve schlepped a number of those bottles over here in the past decade or so. They always show well to the domestic audience and are quite a curiosity down here as there’s very little Oregon PN here full stop. Funnily enough Daniel Airoldi (Airoldi Fine Wines) is now stocking a couple of your 2016s “exclusively” here in Australia. I’ve met Daniel a few times now, he’s a French Australian who is doing very good things regarding direct importing wines to the Australian market. It appears you’re the only Oregon producer he has on his web site. Kudos!
We have actually been doing fairly well in Australia considering we only just started there and really have no idea what would be helpful on our side of things for Daniel to do even better than he has done given our limited input beyond the wines themselves.

Sorry we missed you. We are under construction and have been so for nearly a year and the wear and tear on staff has been evident. We ran the tastings out of a restaurant in Newberg for well more than half of 2018 and the winery land line through one woman's cell phone for almost a year (imagine actually having to answer your phone upwards of 100 times a day sometimes) as well as using her house as an office. I am sure tons of shit fell through the cracks and the only thing I could do about it was to feel so badly for the people who work here and the duress they were under. Fortunately we are days away from being done and actually already have our offices back. Next time!
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#105 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 7th, 2019, 11:08 am

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 9:51 am
Mattstolz wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 8:33 am
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 6:32 am


You really need to get out more...
meh... there is still a sea of pretty much just ok at best wine coming out of Beaujolais. there is DEFINITELY some great ones too, but I think this plays into the conversation above about discussing the lower tier producers along with the upper ones. the lower ones have to be acknowledged because most people walking into Total Wine or Publix are not walking out with Lapierre Morgon. theyre walking about with Beauj. Nouveau form some random producer and wondering what the hype is about.
More people are walking out the retail door with Beaujolais than any $30 Burgundy or Oregon Pinot Noir. There are over 4,000 grower/producers in Beaujolais, and over 20 co-ops. So let's say 10% of Oregon's producers are making great value wines, and 10% of Burgundy's producers are doing the same. Do the same with Beaujolais, and you have 400 serious wines. I dare you to find 40 great value red Burgundies or 40 value Pinot Noirs from Oregon.

Just last night I opened a bottle of 2016 Beaujolais Villages from the Domaine de la Madone, small grower, old vines, $15 retail. It was absolutely stunning for the money. Please find me a wine in Oregon that can come "close" to this in quality for that money -
40 great value wines(<$30) from Oregon is a piece of cake. Especially if Beaujolais is the bar(and especially if you add in Oregon Gamay Noir as well).


I love Beaujolais done well, and prefer Thivin and Coudert’s Clos de la Roilette to Lapierre(stylistically) or you could say Cote de Brouilly and Fleury to Morgon. But there is a lot of solid wine from Oregon under $30 if one knows where to look.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#106 Post by Jim Stewart » February 7th, 2019, 11:37 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:08 am
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 9:51 am
Mattstolz wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 8:33 am


meh... there is still a sea of pretty much just ok at best wine coming out of Beaujolais. there is DEFINITELY some great ones too, but I think this plays into the conversation above about discussing the lower tier producers along with the upper ones. the lower ones have to be acknowledged because most people walking into Total Wine or Publix are not walking out with Lapierre Morgon. theyre walking about with Beauj. Nouveau form some random producer and wondering what the hype is about.
More people are walking out the retail door with Beaujolais than any $30 Burgundy or Oregon Pinot Noir. There are over 4,000 grower/producers in Beaujolais, and over 20 co-ops. So let's say 10% of Oregon's producers are making great value wines, and 10% of Burgundy's producers are doing the same. Do the same with Beaujolais, and you have 400 serious wines. I dare you to find 40 great value red Burgundies or 40 value Pinot Noirs from Oregon.

Just last night I opened a bottle of 2016 Beaujolais Villages from the Domaine de la Madone, small grower, old vines, $15 retail. It was absolutely stunning for the money. Please find me a wine in Oregon that can come "close" to this in quality for that money -
40 great value wines(<$30) from Oregon is a piece of cake. Especially if Beaujolais is the bar(and especially if you add in Oregon Gamay Noir as well).


I love Beaujolais done well, and prefer Thivin and Coudert’s Clos de la Roilette to Lapierre(stylistically) or you could say Cote de Brouilly and Fleury to Morgon. But there is a lot of solid wine from Oregon under $30 if one knows where to look.
I would welcome hearing about some specific wines !
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#107 Post by Mont Stern » February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

I am going to throw a ball from left field. In that price range for interesting pinot noir, I would go with Germany for delivering the most bang for the buck. Throw another $10 to the mix and Germany really pulls away from the competition. Thank global warming and some dedicated wine makers.
Julianne Eller is hitting it out of the park with her Juwel Alsheim Spatburgunder. A few others :
Thörle Saulheimer Spatburgunder Kalkstein
Enderle and Moll Liaison
Ziereisen Talrein Spätburgunder

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#108 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 7th, 2019, 12:23 pm

Mont Stern wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
I am going to throw a ball from left field. In that price range for interesting pinot noir, I would go with Germany for delivering the most bang for the buck. Throw another $10 to the mix and Germany really pulls away from the competition. Thank global warming and some dedicated wine makers.
Julianne Eller is hitting it out of the park with her Juwel Alsheim Spatburgunder. A few others :
Thörle Saulheimer Spatburgunder Kalkstein
Enderle and Moll Liaison
Ziereisen Talrein Spätburgunder
Thanks for the examples, I have been hearing great things about Germany and Pinot Noir lately. I had a bottle of Enderle & Moll a few weeks ago that was very solid but have been in need of some other producers to look for.
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on February 7th, 2019, 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#109 Post by Scott Tallman » February 7th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Jim Stewart - I’m sure Marcus can provide more examples, but here are a few. Not all PN and some are slightly over $30 but can be found for around that price or under on sale or through future/bulk purchases.

- Cameron WV PN
- Cameron Ribbon Ridge PN
- Cameron Dundee Hills PN
- Cameron Reserve PN & Chard
- Goodfellow WV PN & Chard
- Goodfellow Fool’s Journey Syrah
- Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Blanc
- Belle Pente WV PN
- Belle Pente Gemay
- Belle Pente Clos de Oiseau
- Brick House Gamay Ribbon Ridge
- Brick House Gamay Due East
- Brick House Cascadia Chardonnay
- Crowley WV PN & Chard
- Kelley Fox Ahurani PN
- Kelley Fox Mirabai PN
- Walter Scott WV PN & Chard
- Walter Scott Cuvee Ruth PN
- J Christopher Lumière
- J Christopher Dundee Hills Cuvee
- Vincent Bjornson Gamay
- Vincent Ribbon Ridge PN
- Vincent Eola-Amity Hills PN
- Vincent WV Tardive Chard
- Vincent WV PN
- Johan Estate PN
- Johan Visdom Chard
- Evesham Wood WV PN
- Evesham Wood Eola-Amity Hills Cuvee PN
- Evesham Wood Temperance Hill
- Paetra PN & Rieslings
- Ovum Rieslings
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#110 Post by Mattstolz » February 7th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 9:51 am

More people are walking out the retail door with Beaujolais than any $30 Burgundy or Oregon Pinot Noir. There are over 4,000 grower/producers in Beaujolais, and over 20 co-ops. So let's say 10% of Oregon's producers are making great value wines, and 10% of Burgundy's producers are doing the same. Do the same with Beaujolais, and you have 400 serious wines. I dare you to find 40 great value red Burgundies or 40 value Pinot Noirs from Oregon.

Just last night I opened a bottle of 2016 Beaujolais Villages from the Domaine de la Madone, small grower, old vines, $15 retail. It was absolutely stunning for the money. Please find me a wine in Oregon that can come "close" to this in quality for that money -
Im definitely not debating the quality bang for the buck in Beaujolais for sure. and I think if you're talking about pricing for the 10% best Beaujolais cuvees you would be hard pressed to find a better value ratio anywhere in the world. I am mostly in this thread thinking the places where direct comparisons are typically made between Oregon and Burg though... I'm not sure if people are comparing Oregon gamay to Beaujolais very often or not actually. is that something that happens?
Mont Stern wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
I am going to throw a ball from left field. In that price range for interesting pinot noir, I would go with Germany for delivering the most bang for the buck. Throw another $10 to the mix and Germany really pulls away from the competition. Thank global warming and some dedicated wine makers.
Julianne Eller is hitting it out of the park with her Juwel Alsheim Spatburgunder. A few others :
Thörle Saulheimer Spatburgunder Kalkstein
Enderle and Moll Liaison
Ziereisen Talrein Spätburgunder
apparently I need to be seeking out some German spatburgunder. its still just impossible to track down anywhere near me. but then again if I'm being honest so is good Burgundy, or most Oregon pinot, or barbaresco, or German riesling...

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#111 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 7th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:37 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:08 am
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 9:51 am


More people are walking out the retail door with Beaujolais than any $30 Burgundy or Oregon Pinot Noir. There are over 4,000 grower/producers in Beaujolais, and over 20 co-ops. So let's say 10% of Oregon's producers are making great value wines, and 10% of Burgundy's producers are doing the same. Do the same with Beaujolais, and you have 400 serious wines. I dare you to find 40 great value red Burgundies or 40 value Pinot Noirs from Oregon.

Just last night I opened a bottle of 2016 Beaujolais Villages from the Domaine de la Madone, small grower, old vines, $15 retail. It was absolutely stunning for the money. Please find me a wine in Oregon that can come "close" to this in quality for that money -
40 great value wines(<$30) from Oregon is a piece of cake. Especially if Beaujolais is the bar(and especially if you add in Oregon Gamay Noir as well).


I love Beaujolais done well, and prefer Thivin and Coudert’s Clos de la Roilette to Lapierre(stylistically) or you could say Cote de Brouilly and Fleury to Morgon. But there is a lot of solid wine from Oregon under $30 if one knows where to look.
I would welcome hearing about some specific wines !
It would start with a lot of old faves:

Crowley WV Pinot Noir
Evesham Wood Willamette Valley or Eola Amity Cuvee
Twill Cellars WV Pinot Noir
Love & Squalor WV Pinot Noir
Division Wines WV Pinot Noir and Gamay
Belle Pente WV Pinot Noir and Gamay
J. Christopher WV and appellation wines, also a cuvée called JJ that’s available locally
PGC Reserve
Cameron WV Pinot Noir or Dundee Hills
Biggio Hamina
Grochau Cellars WV
Johan
J. K. Carriere Provocateur
Ayres WV Pinot Noir ($18.00)
Kelley Fox Ahurani Pinot Noir($24.00)
Hundred Suns Old 8 Cut
Martin Woods Willamette Valley Pinot Noir & Gamay
Brooks WV Pinot Noir

There’s a lot of stylistic difference here, but to each their own. And this is far from a comprehensive list.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#112 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 7th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Jim Stewart - I’m sure Marcus can provide more examples, but here are a few. Not all PN and some are slightly over $30 but can be found for around that price or under on sale or through future/bulk purchases.

- Cameron WV PN
- Cameron Ribbon Ridge PN
- Cameron Dundee Hills PN
- Cameron Reserve PN & Chard
- Goodfellow WV PN & Chard
- Goodfellow Fool’s Journey Syrah
- Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Blanc
- Belle Pente WV PN
- Belle Pente Gemay
- Belle Pente Clos de Oiseau
- Brick House Gamay Ribbon Ridge
- Brick House Gamay Due East
- Brick House Cascadia Chardonnay
- Crowley WV PN & Chard
- Kelley Fox Ahurani PN
- Kelley Fox Mirabai PN
- Walter Scott WV PN & Chard
- Walter Scott Cuvee Ruth PN
- J Christopher Lumière
- J Christopher Dundee Hills Cuvee
- Vincent Bjornson Gamay
- Vincent Ribbon Ridge PN
- Vincent Eola-Amity Hills PN
- Vincent WV Tardive Chard
- Vincent WV PN
- Johan Estate PN
- Johan Visdom Chard
- Evesham Wood WV PN
- Evesham Wood Eola-Amity Hills Cuvee PN
- Evesham Wood Temperance Hill
- Paetra PN & Rieslings
- Ovum Rieslings
Damn...I completely spaced Vincent. Excellent wines.

Also, Goodfellow Ribbon Ridge Pinot Noir and Chardonnay can be found south of $30.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#113 Post by Jim Stewart » February 7th, 2019, 2:23 pm

Scott and Marcus, very helpful to see your lists. Thanks. -Jim
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#114 Post by brian i » February 7th, 2019, 2:28 pm

This thread makes me miss buying Crumbled Rock Juliard for $17. What's Furioso charging now?
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#115 Post by Thomas Keim » February 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm

Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Jim Stewart - I’m sure Marcus can provide more examples, but here are a few. Not all PN and some are slightly over $30 but can be found for around that price or under on sale or through future/bulk purchases.

- Cameron WV PN
- Cameron Ribbon Ridge PN
- Cameron Dundee Hills PN
- Cameron Reserve PN & Chard
- Goodfellow WV PN & Chard
- Goodfellow Fool’s Journey Syrah
- Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Blanc
- Belle Pente WV PN
- Belle Pente Gemay
- Belle Pente Clos de Oiseau
- Brick House Gamay Ribbon Ridge
- Brick House Gamay Due East
- Brick House Cascadia Chardonnay
- Crowley WV PN & Chard
- Kelley Fox Ahurani PN
- Kelley Fox Mirabai PN
- Walter Scott WV PN & Chard
- Walter Scott Cuvee Ruth PN
- J Christopher Lumière
- J Christopher Dundee Hills Cuvee
- Vincent Bjornson Gamay
- Vincent Ribbon Ridge PN
- Vincent Eola-Amity Hills PN
- Vincent WV Tardive Chard
- Vincent WV PN
- Johan Estate PN
- Johan Visdom Chard
- Evesham Wood WV PN
- Evesham Wood Eola-Amity Hills Cuvee PN
- Evesham Wood Temperance Hill
- Paetra PN & Rieslings
- Ovum Rieslings
How many of these are under $25 a bottle?
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#116 Post by Scott Tallman » February 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm
Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Jim Stewart - I’m sure Marcus can provide more examples, but here are a few. Not all PN and some are slightly over $30 but can be found for around that price or under on sale or through future/bulk purchases.

- Cameron WV PN
- Cameron Ribbon Ridge PN
- Cameron Dundee Hills PN
- Cameron Reserve PN & Chard
- Goodfellow WV PN & Chard
- Goodfellow Fool’s Journey Syrah
- Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Blanc
- Belle Pente WV PN
- Belle Pente Gemay
- Belle Pente Clos de Oiseau
- Brick House Gamay Ribbon Ridge
- Brick House Gamay Due East
- Brick House Cascadia Chardonnay
- Crowley WV PN & Chard
- Kelley Fox Ahurani PN
- Kelley Fox Mirabai PN
- Walter Scott WV PN & Chard
- Walter Scott Cuvee Ruth PN
- J Christopher Lumière
- J Christopher Dundee Hills Cuvee
- Vincent Bjornson Gamay
- Vincent Ribbon Ridge PN
- Vincent Eola-Amity Hills PN
- Vincent WV Tardive Chard
- Vincent WV PN
- Johan Estate PN
- Johan Visdom Chard
- Evesham Wood WV PN
- Evesham Wood Eola-Amity Hills Cuvee PN
- Evesham Wood Temperance Hill
- Paetra PN & Rieslings
- Ovum Rieslings
How many of these are under $25 a bottle?
More than half.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#117 Post by Adam Noble » February 7th, 2019, 3:17 pm

I don't know the answer to the question, because there isn't really one, but I drank a 2017 Walter Scott Pinot Noir Combe Verte over the past 2 nights and it was a great $25 bottle. And then I bought a bunch of 2017 Walter Scott svds for way more than that. Not a coincidence.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#118 Post by Thomas Keim » February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm


How many of these are under $25 a bottle?
More than half.
If you are on their mailing list, or live close - in 3/4ths of the country, most of these wines are 20% higher in price. And don't get me wrong, I adore Oregon wines, and was one of the first retailers in the country to get behind them - I just think it's really silly to compare oranges to apples. Especially when you throw the Macon and Beaujolais into the mix, where there are literally hundreds of under $15 wines to chose from that deliver -
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#119 Post by Jim Anderson » February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm

We are, in Oregon only, releasing our once-every-so-often-but-really-not-very-often bottling of Willamette Valley Pinot Noir (2017 vintage). We are not selling it at the winery or directly in any manner. It should retail (if it goes to retailer as opposed to BTG) for $16.50-$17.50. There are only 122 cases however. It was for a bottling line project I had to do. It's definitely good quality stuff. It will all run through our distributor so I don't know where it will ultimately end up.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#120 Post by Scott Tallman » February 7th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm
Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm


How many of these are under $25 a bottle?
More than half.
If you are on their mailing list, or live close - in 3/4ths of the country, most of these wines are 20% higher in price. And don't get me wrong, I adore Oregon wines, and was one of the first retailers in the country to get behind them - I just think it's really silly to compare oranges to apples. Especially when you throw the Macon and Beaujolais into the mix, where there are literally hundreds of under $15 wines to chose from that deliver -
Fair points, but I don’t particularly care which has wine region offers the best values or which regions offer a better value in a narrow price range, not do I often seek out or buy wines that are $15 and under. Was merely providing specific info to someone who asked.

FWIW The prices I was referring to when providing that list was based on either winery direct or retailers that I’ve seen many on this board discuss buying from (which are in the NW), so its not necessarily the case that folks outside the NW have to pay more than I do (save the shipping costs) if they buy from the right spots.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#121 Post by Sean_S » February 7th, 2019, 3:40 pm

Marcus is being humble. His WV Pinot, Chardonnay, and Whistling Ridge Blanc are under $20 and they are lovely elegant wines. Many of Vincent's cuvees both Chard and Pinot are around $19-21 as well... Cameron WV Pinot can be had for ~$15 but the Dundee Hills at $25 IMO is a much better wine. Cameron WV Chardonnay is well under $20 and another great wine although a bit richer than the Goodfellow and Vincent offerings with their great acidity. I love some Beaujolais and the value is certainly there. Haven't had that much luck with Burgundy villages in the price range though. I've only had a few Gamay Noirs from WV but the Walter Scott and Vincents rendition were both yummy to me.

That said, yes these prices are off their mailing list in most cases, a couple bucks more at retail. The opposite is true here on the left coast as we don't get the great prices/selection on a lot of old world imports as the East Coasters. No one in California even Kermit lynch has the selection of Chamber St for example. Cameron as you probably know doesn't have a list or even do direct to consumer sales. You have to get his value bottlings fast as they're gone if you wait. Especially the WV and Dundee Hills Pinot. Oregon consumers can't get enough of that stuff.

Loving this thread have some new producers on both sides of the pond to try....

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#122 Post by Rolf Winterthur » February 7th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Everyone has their Pinot style preference. Oregon has a range of Pinot Noir that most likely includes your preference and in the under $30 range. You may not get it in Bug Tussle, but it is made. There are many OR Pinot Noir tasted blind in various Somm study groups I attend that are pegged for Burgundy. I doesn't mean you shouldn't prefer your $25 Chalonnaise over any Oregon, but it does mean you should probably try some other OR Pinots.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#123 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 7th, 2019, 9:29 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm
Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 2:36 pm


How many of these are under $25 a bottle?
More than half.
If you are on their mailing list, or live close - in 3/4ths of the country, most of these wines are 20% higher in price. And don't get me wrong, I adore Oregon wines, and was one of the first retailers in the country to get behind them - I just think it's really silly to compare oranges to apples. Especially when you throw the Macon and Beaujolais into the mix, where there are literally hundreds of under $15 wines to chose from that deliver -
All of my quoted pricing was from Wine Searcher(not pro), so YMMV but there were prices from across the country on many of them.

If you are in Virginia, then you are correct as the taxes are steep.

But in the states I distribut to outside of Oregon, not including VA, you should be able to retail the Goodfellow WV Pinot Noir for $25 max, with a normal margin. And a consumer buying winery direct on the east coast would be close to that as shipping is basically $6/btl right now(and on the WV a flat rate shipping charge isn’t supportable).

There’s no doubt that you have a much better selection of good inexpensive European wines than the west coast, although we do have quite a few. Shipping adds a layer to them getting here too, and in Oregon, there is a plethora of good moderately priced Pinot Noir out there.

I would almost expect the poll to sway based upon where the posters origin is.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#124 Post by Craig G » February 7th, 2019, 10:59 pm

Tim Heaton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 4:27 pm
Sicily
My experience is limited, but based on what I’ve had, the $20-30 wines from Sicily are better than the more expensive ones :-)

We had a beautiful $25 Etna Rosso that was a Burgundy lover’s dream, and every time I tried to find something better, they were more muscular and/or oaky and not very appealing.

With respect to the original question, I believe one thing that works in France’s favor is that there are a lot of vines that have been owned essentially forever that make pretty good wine. It’s really evident in the Rhône where you can still get very good stuff for under $15 - that is pretty rare in the US where people generally have to buy or plant vineyards in decent areas. In Burgundy the low end is pricier, but Faiveley was mentioned above and they are making really good wine across the range including the Bourgogne which is $20.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#125 Post by Jim Stewart » February 8th, 2019, 5:08 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 9:29 pm
Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm
Scott Tallman wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:07 pm


More than half.
If you are on their mailing list, or live close - in 3/4ths of the country, most of these wines are 20% higher in price. And don't get me wrong, I adore Oregon wines, and was one of the first retailers in the country to get behind them - I just think it's really silly to compare oranges to apples. Especially when you throw the Macon and Beaujolais into the mix, where there are literally hundreds of under $15 wines to chose from that deliver -
All of my quoted pricong was from Wine Searcher(not pro), so YMMV but there were prices from across the country on many of them.

If you are in Virginia, then you are correct as the taxes are steep.

But in the states outside of Oregon, not including VA, you should be able to retail the Goodfellow WV Pinot Noir for $25 max, with a normal margin. And a consumer buying winery direct on the east coast would be close to that as shipping is basically $6/btl right now(and on the WV a flat rate shipping charge isn’t supportable).

And there’s no doubt that you have a much better selection of good inexpensive European wines than the west coast, and we do have quite a few, but shipping adds a layer to them getting here too. And in oregon, there is a plethora of good moderately prices Pinot Noir out there.

I would almost expect the poll to sway based upon where the posters origin is.
I had the same thought and also remembered this off-topic but to the point graphic I saw recently:
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#126 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 8th, 2019, 9:22 am

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 3:24 pm

If you are on their mailing list, or live close - in 3/4ths of the country, most of these wines are 20% higher in price. And don't get me wrong, I adore Oregon wines, and was one of the first retailers in the country to get behind them - I just think it's really silly to compare oranges to apples. Especially when you throw the Macon and Beaujolais into the mix, where there are literally hundreds of under $15 wines to chose from that deliver -
Comparing OR Pinot to Beaujolais is a lot more "oranges to apples" than comparing preferred Burgs in this price range to preferred OR PN in this price range. I enjoy both quite a lot but they're not exactly like for like, and some people, including on this board, really don't like gamay at all. To me your post seems to have moved the goalposts several times. The question wasn't about $15 wine. Even so, I'm in St. Louis and we definitely don't see a lot of good Beaujolais for under $15. Some, but not many, and certainly not "hundreds." Also having this discussion based on some kind of average wines from the region at average retail across the country seems like the wrong way to address the question. You mention mailing lists but most of these wines are cheaper at retail. Even here, where OR pinot and chard distribution is not very good, I can get Evesham, Haden Fig (WV and some svds), PGC and a few others mentioned here well within the price range.

Howard made a similar point earlier, but I tend to look at these questions not as a hypothetical for the average buyer under average retail conditions, but rather for me personally, knowing what I know, with the wines and prices at which I can access them. If you shift it to consider value broadly amongst all the wines, across all retail shelves everywhere I think it becomes to open-ended of a question to be useful. Also I just don't really care what's on the average retail shelf in every town in America, but I do care what people here find to be good wine at good value because that leads me to new discoveries.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#127 Post by Thomas Keim » February 8th, 2019, 10:17 am

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 9:22 am
Comparing OR Pinot to Beaujolais is a lot more "oranges to apples" than comparing preferred Burgs in this price range to preferred OR PN in this price range.
I have a long time habit of putting oak aged Cru Beaujolais in blind tastings with American Pinot Noirs, and they are rarely picked out as Gamay -
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#128 Post by Kris Patten » February 10th, 2019, 5:03 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:21 pm
Ian H wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm



Well, I feel the exact opposite. I think Oregon is head and shoulders above Burgundy for QpR, definitely in the $20-$30 range.
I'm with you. especially from a consistency standpoint in that price range. its either a not as good producer or a bad vintage in the 20-30 range for Burgundy I think.

That being said, I think the sweet spot for Oregon is really more skewed towards the 30s than the 20s.
Kris Patten wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:19 pm
If you include Macon, Pouilly Fuisse and Beaujolais as Burgundy, then I think Burgundy takes the belt. If only Cote du Beaune and Nuits then Burgundy by a hair.
lets say at least not Beaujolais and say we're comparing pinot and chard to pinot and chard. so what burgs are you buying in this price range that convince you?
Matt,

Sorry for late response, been travelling, but looking over WSPRO retail prices for Bourgogne Rouge, Marsannay, Pernand Verglesses, Savigny and Mercurey it's harder than ever to find at retails under $30 for wines like Faiveley, Pavelot, Jadot among others, so I may rescind my red comment as everyone seems to have inched into the $35-$50 range.

Whites I can still find, but I do believe Oregon still hits its sweet spot over $30 for Pinot Noir.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#129 Post by Christopher Barnes » February 14th, 2019, 7:54 pm

I'll throw my hat into the ring: We have 2016 Willamette Valley Pinot Noir that is pretty good for $26! :) I'd love to have some people give it a shot and let me know what you think.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#130 Post by rfelthoven » February 15th, 2019, 8:37 am

Chris — I read caramel and vanilla in the description and I get scared!
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#131 Post by A Songeur » February 15th, 2019, 8:54 am

Well depends on where you leave and if you have access to winery.

For 20-30$, you get pretty much bourgogne rouge from the best producers in Cote d'or (for instance Barthod and Mugneret Gibourg who have some of the best BR in Cote de Nuits...)
In EU, you'll struggle to get good Pinot noir from Oregon for this price.

In US, it is clearly the other way round I suppose as you will not get many BR from top producers in this price range and will have to go to lesser sub regions while I suppose best Oregon producers will have some pretty good wine in this price range (I don't really know as I live in London...).
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#132 Post by Christopher Barnes » February 15th, 2019, 11:51 am

rfelthoven wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 8:37 am
Chris — I read caramel and vanilla in the description and I get scared!
Ha, well don't be too scared. It's funny that when you gather around and taste the wines a couple months after bottling to write wine descriptors they end up not being the same as when the wine sits in bottle for a year or two. It would be a full time job to keep updating the tasting notes as the wine evolves though. There is definitely a spice character in the wine, but I would not call it caramel anymore. :)
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#133 Post by Ian S » February 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Christopher Barnes wrote:
February 14th, 2019, 7:54 pm
I'll throw my hat into the ring: We have 2016 Willamette Valley Pinot Noir that is pretty good for $26! :) I'd love to have some people give it a shot and let me know what you think.
That would be an interesting comparison with some similarly priced Bourgogne and Village level Burgundy. [cheers.gif] Maybe add a Rivers-Marie Anderson Valley or Sonoma Coast to Team Oregon since they're $30.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#134 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 15th, 2019, 8:59 pm

Ian S wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm
Christopher Barnes wrote:
February 14th, 2019, 7:54 pm
I'll throw my hat into the ring: We have 2016 Willamette Valley Pinot Noir that is pretty good for $26! :) I'd love to have some people give it a shot and let me know what you think.
That would be an interesting comparison with some similarly priced Bourgogne and Village level Burgundy. [cheers.gif] Maybe add a Rivers-Marie Anderson Valley or Sonoma Coast to Team Oregon since they're $30.

Are you donating one to the cause? [wink.gif] [wow.gif]
Fun tasting, but no Rivers Marie necessary(and with plenty of respect to the Rivers Marie wines, they are simply not Oregon).

Happy to donate a bottle or two to the tasting cause though.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#135 Post by Tim Heaton » February 24th, 2019, 12:56 am

Craig G wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 10:59 pm
Tim Heaton wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 4:27 pm
Sicily
My experience is limited, but based on what I’ve had, the $20-30 wines from Sicily are better than the more expensive ones :-)
We had a beautiful $25 Etna Rosso that was a Burgundy lover’s dream, and every time I tried to find something better, they were more muscular and/or oaky and not very appealing.
-- with very, very few exceptions, I completely agree. One of my annual exceptions is when I dine at San Giorgio e il Drago, in Randazzo, and I get something something off their (super modestly priced) list that has some age on it. Even then, the price is on par with Pietramarina, an exceptional white (usually less than 50Euro), or less.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#136 Post by Barry L i p t o n » February 24th, 2019, 9:15 am

As mentioned upthread, if you include Beaujolais, then Burgundy wins hands down.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#137 Post by Gary York » February 24th, 2019, 9:17 am

The last thing Burgundy wants is to be associated with Beaujolais.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#138 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 24th, 2019, 11:18 am

Gary York wrote:
February 24th, 2019, 9:17 am
The last thing Burgundy wants is to be associated with Beaujolais.
I don't think that's the case any longer; otherwise why would so many Burg producers make wines in Beaujolais? When Beaujolais' reputation was poor I'm sure that was the case, but with opportunity to expand in the Cote limited, and with Beaujolais star having risen significantly, I'm sure many Burgundy producers see an opportunity to make quality wines and to raise prices on the strength of their own reputations.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#139 Post by Tim Heaton » February 24th, 2019, 11:39 am

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 24th, 2019, 11:18 am
Gary York wrote:
February 24th, 2019, 9:17 am
The last thing Burgundy wants is to be associated with Beaujolais.
I don't think that's the case any longer; otherwise why would so many Burg producers make wines in Beaujolais? When Beaujolais' reputation was poor I'm sure that was the case, but with opportunity to expand in the Cote limited, and with Beaujolais star having risen significantly, I'm sure many Burgundy producers see an opportunity to make quality wines and to raise prices on the strength of their own reputations.
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