[Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

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Who has the better $20-30 wines?

Poll ended at February 9th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Oregon
97
65%
Burgundy
52
35%
 
Total votes: 149

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Mattstolz
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[Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#1 Post by Mattstolz » February 4th, 2019, 4:58 pm

I was listening to the newest episode of one of my regular wine podcasts today (Wine for Normal People) on Oregon. From the outset the host laid the groundwork that she was possibly not happy about some things with Oregon. The claim ended up being that Oregon really struggles with quality consistency when compared to Burgundy in the $20-30(ish) range. I personally think this is kind of hogwash. I'm curious what others think. Id be more than happy to be convinced one way or the other, but Im curious if others share her sentiments.

I'd also love to know wines that you think back up your claim!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#2 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » February 4th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Sadly, $20-30 is a tough price range for red Burgundy in today's day and age. Village wines from the Nuits and premiers from the Cote de Beaune are over $50 now. I think you can find wines from e.g. St Innocent that are IMO significantly better than the generic Bourgogne or satellite region wines you can get from Burgundy. But with that said, it's about style. If you want something more light/crisp/tart/elegant than you may prefer certain Burgundies. Oregon pinots have much less extreme fruit than California pinots but I still sometimes find them bit sweet and rustic at times compared to Burgundy.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#3 Post by Ian H » February 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 4:58 pm
I was listening to the newest episode of one of my regular wine podcasts today (Wine for Normal People) on Oregon. From the outset the host laid the groundwork that she was possibly not happy about some things with Oregon. The claim ended up being that Oregon really struggles with quality consistency when compared to Burgundy in the $20-30(ish) range. I personally think this is kind of hogwash. I'm curious what others think. Id be more than happy to be convinced one way or the other, but Im curious if others share her sentiments.

I'd also love to know wines that you think back up your claim!

Well, I feel the exact opposite. I think Oregon is head and shoulders above Burgundy for QpR, definitely in the $20-$30 range.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#4 Post by Doug Schulman » February 4th, 2019, 5:35 pm

I think the value is similar in that price range, and up to about $70-$80, above which I have to give it to Burgundy. There are some surprisingly good Oregon Pinot Noirs and red Burgundies in the $25-$30 range. Well chosen wines $20-$25 are simple but well made and very drinkable from either place. There's also a lot of crap in that price range (and up) in both categories, so it's all about being selective.

Anyway, flawed poll because I think they're about equal in that price range.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#5 Post by Howard Cooper » February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm

I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#6 Post by Kris Patten » February 4th, 2019, 7:19 pm

If you include Macon, Pouilly Fuisse and Beaujolais as Burgundy, then I think Burgundy takes the belt. If only Cote du Beaune and Nuits then Burgundy by a hair.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#7 Post by Mattstolz » February 4th, 2019, 7:21 pm

Ian H wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm



Well, I feel the exact opposite. I think Oregon is head and shoulders above Burgundy for QpR, definitely in the $20-$30 range.
I'm with you. especially from a consistency standpoint in that price range. its either a not as good producer or a bad vintage in the 20-30 range for Burgundy I think.

That being said, I think the sweet spot for Oregon is really more skewed towards the 30s than the 20s.
Kris Patten wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:19 pm
If you include Macon, Pouilly Fuisse and Beaujolais as Burgundy, then I think Burgundy takes the belt. If only Cote du Beaune and Nuits then Burgundy by a hair.
lets say at least not Beaujolais and say we're comparing pinot and chard to pinot and chard. so what burgs are you buying in this price range that convince you?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#8 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 4th, 2019, 7:50 pm

For reds I think definitely Oregon in that price range. There are a (very) few good red burgundies under $30 (assuming US retail pricing) but there are quite a few really good Oregon Pinot Noirs at under 30 even under 20. For Chardonnay I’m going to say burgundy though, particularly if you include Chablis, but also for Bourgogne Blanc. I don’t have nearly as much experience with OR chard though.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#9 Post by S t e p h e nK » February 4th, 2019, 8:15 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 4:58 pm
I was listening to the newest episode of one of my regular wine podcasts today (Wine for Normal People) on Oregon. From the outset the host laid the groundwork that she was possibly not happy about some things with Oregon. The claim ended up being that Oregon really struggles with quality consistency when compared to Burgundy in the $20-30(ish) range. I personally think this is kind of hogwash. I'm curious what others think. Id be more than happy to be convinced one way or the other, but Im curious if others share her sentiments.

I'd also love to know wines that you think back up your claim!
I’ve listened to that podcast before. She’s never been much of an Oregon pinot fan and more often than not spoke of vintage variation as a reason for not recommending Oregon Pinot. She’s not wrong, but I’m not sure how much Oregon Pinot she’s had and if her opinion is only based on the mass market producers. Unless she’s traveled recently, she’s never been/spoken of being in Oregon.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#10 Post by S t e p h e nK » February 4th, 2019, 8:31 pm

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:50 pm
For reds I think definitely Oregon in that price range. There are a (very) few good red burgundies under $30 (assuming US retail pricing) but there are quite a few really good Oregon Pinot Noirs at under 30 even under 20. For Chardonnay I’m going to say burgundy though, particularly if you include Chablis, but also for Bourgogne Blanc. I don’t have nearly as much experience with OR chard though.

+1 for Chardonnay. I haven’t had enough red Bourgogne to judge.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#11 Post by Randy Bowman » February 4th, 2019, 8:40 pm

One thing I have to say about the Oregon Pinots is they are versatile and reasonable through most of the wine makers. You can find Burgundian Pinot in most vintages and fruit forward, "Cali style" Pinots in the same vintage. The Oregon Pinots are very diverse but I will admit the wines vary according to weather. Right now, I'm drinking a 2015 Sineann Oregon Pinot Noir, (27.99), Stelvin enclosure, that is not only holding its own after a Hahn SLH Pinot, it's showing very well with its own character, body, fruit and spice.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#12 Post by Lee Short » February 4th, 2019, 10:19 pm

If we're talking the single best cherry-picked bottle, my vote is for burgundy. If we're talking what there's a reasonable selection of readily available wines in the price range, then Oregon.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#13 Post by Todd Hamina » February 4th, 2019, 10:22 pm

Maybe she doesn't get any good free stuff from Oregonians.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#14 Post by Andrew Hamilton » February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm

A slight tangent but I'm finding it harder to find sub $30 AUD Pinot Noir domestically here in Australia. I was over in the Mornington Peninsula early last year and my plan was to find as many under $30 AUD pinots as possible that suited my palate as a daily quaffer. My reasoning is that from ~$40 AUD and upwards I can land Burgundy that's better suited to my tastes and often I find in the $50 and up category domestic pinot is (in broad brushstrokes) over extracted and over oaked.

Anyway, after a half dozen cellar door visits I found exactly 1 pinot that suited my requirements from a price and palate perspective. Most cellar doors didn't even have an offering at $30 or under.

Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#15 Post by Mattstolz » February 5th, 2019, 2:39 am

S t e p h e nK wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 8:15 pm

I’ve listened to that podcast before. She’s never been much of an Oregon pinot fan and more often than not spoke of vintage variation as a reason for not recommending Oregon Pinot. She’s not wrong, but I’m not sure how much Oregon Pinot she’s had and if her opinion is only based on the mass market producers. Unless she’s traveled recently, she’s never been/spoken of being in Oregon.
she did specifically mention that they've traveled to Walla Walla but never to Oregon. I think its funny to lament vintage variation in Oregon and claim variability as the problem when compared to BURGUNDY, the poster child for variability (which is what she did). she also did mention the fact that things like Chat. St Michelle and other large wineries are buying properties is a good thing... which I also disagree with.
Lee Short wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:19 pm
If we're talking the single best cherry-picked bottle, my vote is for burgundy. If we're talking what there's a reasonable selection of readily available wines in the price range, then Oregon.
I think that the latter is definitely more the discussion AND what the host of the podcast was discussing. maybe its different if I'm shopping in Beaune... but the host isn't doing that either, she's in Raleigh. Ive been there, I know she's getting a better selection of Oregon wines than Burgs haha
Andrew Hamilton wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:27 pm
A slight tangent but I'm finding it harder to find sub $30 AUD Pinot Noir domestically here in Australia. I was over in the Mornington Peninsula early last year and my plan was to find as many under $30 AUD pinots as possible that suited my palate as a daily quaffer. My reasoning is that from ~$40 AUD and upwards I can land Burgundy that's better suited to my tastes and often I find in the $50 and up category domestic pinot is (in broad brushstrokes) over extracted and over oaked.

Anyway, after a half dozen cellar door visits I found exactly 1 pinot that suited my requirements from a price and palate perspective. Most cellar doors didn't even have an offering at $30 or under.

Similar experience in December when I went to the Willamette Valley for the day. Most pinots there seem to start at $50 and go north of that quick. It seems that we're all quite accustomed to lamenting the price rise in Burgundy but less so in our own backyard.
I'm with you. prices are going up everywhere for sure. BUT places like Christies definitely aren't calling either of our domestics the biggest market movers or grossers from their auctions of the year either like they are Burgs.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#16 Post by Ian S » February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am

Drouhin (specifically for red: Côte de Beaune and Côte de Nuits, for white: Vaudon) Charles Audoin, Hudelot-Nöellat, and Nicolas Potel easily put Burgundy ahead of Oregon in the value department. Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#17 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#18 Post by Greg Malcolm » February 5th, 2019, 5:33 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT
Perhaps you need to read the newsletter that you, Ron and Dennis are writing. [snort.gif] newhere

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#19 Post by Ian S » February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am

[*]
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#20 Post by Jeff Vaughan » February 5th, 2019, 5:41 am

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:50 pm
For reds I think definitely Oregon in that price range. There are a (very) few good red burgundies under $30 (assuming US retail pricing) but there are quite a few really good Oregon Pinot Noirs at under 30 even under 20. For Chardonnay I’m going to say burgundy though, particularly if you include Chablis, but also for Bourgogne Blanc. I don’t have nearly as much experience with OR chard though.
This is my first thought, too, from my limited experience in these regions.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#21 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » February 5th, 2019, 5:50 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
Sounds a lot like what some refer to as a "confected" note to the fruit.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#22 Post by Robert Dentice » February 5th, 2019, 5:57 am

If you are talking about Pinot specifically the answer is Germany!

Spatbürgunder in Germany has improved dramatically in the last 3-5 years an in particular at this price point.

To answer the original question I would give it to Oregon however if you were to include Beaujolais then it would be a more difficult question.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#23 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don't think you're crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a "tell" in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it's a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you'll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#24 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 5th, 2019, 6:23 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
[*]
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
I don't know which wines you've tried, and am not trying to argue about it, but I really doubt the better Oregon producers, several of whom participate here, are using any of that type of additives in their wines. I will say that Oregon has had a run of warmer vintages in the past few years, and that has produced a somewhat riper style. Personal taste is what it is, so obviously if there's something you dislike in it that's how it is for you, but that doesn't mean it's additives. I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#25 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 6:36 am

Greg Malcolm wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:33 am
Perhaps you need to read the newsletter that you, Ron and Dennis are writing. [snort.gif] newhere
Hey...that looks like a bottle of Thomas in the Greg Malcolm rack. He won't even notice! [cheers.gif]

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#26 Post by Robert Dentice » February 5th, 2019, 6:41 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don't think you're crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a "tell" in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it's a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you'll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT
What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#27 Post by Robert Dentice » February 5th, 2019, 6:50 am

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:23 am
I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.
I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don't like I will refund your money!


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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#28 Post by Mattstolz » February 5th, 2019, 6:52 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Drouhin (specifically for red: Côte de Beaune and Côte de Nuits, for white: Vaudon) Charles Audoin, Hudelot-Nöellat, and Nicolas Potel easily put Burgundy ahead of Oregon in the value department. Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
Ive yet to actually be able to track down Hudelot-noellat or Potel Bourgogne (im assuming Bourgogne in this price range) locally, and by time I ship them then I think they typically are back above the price range again. But I have been looking because I think if some bottles have the ability to sway me those are probably the most convincing. Maybe someday somewhere with free shipping or a local store will carry them!
Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:57 am
If you are talking about Pinot specifically the answer is Germany!

Spatbürgunder in Germany has improved dramatically in the last 3-5 years an in particular at this price point.

To answer the original question I would give it to Oregon however if you were to include Beaujolais then it would be a more difficult question.
I'm with Michael above on this in that I've never had great luck with Spatburgunders. Ive tried a few that ive seen positive notes on and just never been blown away.


Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:41 am


What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

I don't think that is part of the terrior, but the sweeter riper style is definitely part of the style of a large handful of US pinot producers. Moreso in California I would say, but I can think of a good group in Oregon too. for the record, I would say those producers (belle glos, eluon, domaine serene, etc) are not really showing typicity for Oregon pinot but moreso for international/modern red style in general. would you mind sharing some of the producers that you've felt have been sweeter?

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#29 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 6:56 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
I think that would be fun. I generally enjoy your first three producers, and think they deliver pretty good value.

For Oregon, Evesham Wood, Patricia Green, Goodfellow(my wine, but value has always been a priority for me), Walter Scott, Vincent, Belle Pente, Hundred Suns, or Martin-Wood.

Although in general, I think that the 80% of less than stellar producers need to be accounted for as well. Low end Burgundy as a whole, can definitely struggle with quality. And Oregon has so many new producers lacking significant experience, along with no shortage of wines with more fruit than spine.

Still, it would be fun to go head to head.
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on February 5th, 2019, 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#30 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 6:57 am

I never was a fan of early Rhys/Alesia despite the hype. I tasted about 15+ different bottlings/vintages before encountering one that I thought approached "Burgundian". On average, CA and ripe vintage OR Pinot will taste sweeter than Burgundy. There seem to be an ever increasing number of exceptions to the rule. Depending on the CA, OR and Burg producers, you should be very careful before betting the farm on a blind tasting.

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#31 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 7:02 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:50 am
I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don't like I will refund your money!
Robert, I agree that Spatburgunder has been turning the corner. Value was a question in the past, but quality has been improving.

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#32 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 7:20 am

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
[*]
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
Could you put some specific names to this?

I don’t honestly think Mega-Purple would translate to aspartame. It’s a grape extract (a crappy one...my feelings on it are well documented on another thread) rather than a chemical additive.

Your palate is your palate, and most of us perceive wines differently. I won’t speak for Oregon, but of you’re tasting most of the smaller producers I listed above or any of the Deep Roots Coalition members, and feel the wines taste of aspartame, then it’s proabably something with the terroir that you are sensitive to (a la cilantro for some people) rather than a winery making additions. Most of us in the craft side, don’t really feel that the fruit needs any additional help. It’s one of the reasons that I am so proud of the wines made in the Willamette Valley.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#33 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 7:58 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:41 am
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am
You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.


RT
What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!
A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities...so, pick your path.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#34 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 5th, 2019, 8:09 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:50 am
Michae1 P0wers wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:23 am
I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.
I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don't like I will refund your money!

Thanks for the tip Robert!

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#35 Post by AlexS » February 5th, 2019, 8:26 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don't think you're crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a "tell" in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it's a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you'll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT
Well, Ian shifted the goal posts to US Pinot at large and if that's the case, big distro supermarket US Pinot is generally pretty confected tasting (even a few of the larger OR producers). Non-spoof, big distro US wine can be a real crap shoot nowadays, especially if you aren't into sweet flavors and/or oak.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#36 Post by Jim Anderson » February 5th, 2019, 8:50 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:58 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:41 am
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am
You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.


RT
What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!
A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities...so, pick your path.
Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#37 Post by PeterH » February 5th, 2019, 9:01 am

I don't buy $20-$30 Burgundy anymore, and very little sub $30 Oregon Pinot Noir, unless it is higher priced wine that has been discounted (or made into a Berserker cuvee). My impression from 40 years of drinking these wines can be condensed to this-

Burgundy- not enough good juice left over after the higher priced wines are made to make a significant amount of entry level wine.

Oregon- copious high quality juice that can't be sold at premium prices, so it gets blended into excellent everyday wine.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#38 Post by Ian S » February 5th, 2019, 10:29 am

Hope you don't mind that I numbered your questions so I can answer below in an organized fashion.
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:20 am

1. You've confirmed this impression by blind tasting? 2. Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? 3. Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don't you taste it in? 4. Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren't using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don't think you're crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a "tell" in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it's a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you'll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT
1. Yes. Before it disbanded, a wine club I was in would do blind tastings.

2. Yes. Specifically, Drouhin from both France and the Willamette Valley.

3. Rivers-Marie's Summa and pre-2012 Kosta Browne's Sonoma Coast are the two that come immediately to mind.

4. Not sure of who is and who isn't part of this extended family, so I couldn't say except for there's a good probability I have sampled one or two. I wouldn't want to call them out by name anyway.


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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#39 Post by James Billy » February 5th, 2019, 12:30 pm

PeterH wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 9:01 am
Burgundy- not enough good juice left over after the higher priced wines are made to make a significant amount of entry level wine.
Definitely true for many big negociants. Not so for small growers.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#40 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 5th, 2019, 2:02 pm

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:37 am
[*]
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:09 am
Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:01 am
Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.
I didn't realize this. Tell me more.

RT
Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don't know why I taste it; I don't know if there's an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don't even know if I'm crazy or not. I'm just relaying my experience and won't be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.
I guess I am buying the right stuff. The Oregon wines I drink and buy never have given me the impression of confection/aspertame. I don't drink from many producers, but Goodfellow, Vincent, and Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, and Random Wine Company, have fit so well into my palate. I recommend trying some of these, if you havent. Also, they are all quite accessable.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#41 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm

I just saw where Richard mentioned some of these. Agree with his thoughts.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#42 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 2:42 pm

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:50 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 7:58 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:41 am


What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!
A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities...so, pick your path.
Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?
We’ll be keeping each other company making more wines for fewer people, but I also really like the results of 17 and 18s picking choices.

And yes we are. Are you at the winery Friday? I have some chardonnay budwood to drop at WR.
Last edited by Marcus Goodfellow on February 5th, 2019, 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#43 Post by Mattstolz » February 5th, 2019, 3:25 pm

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 10:29 am
Hope you don't mind that I numbered your questions so I can answer below in an organized fashion.

1. Yes. Before it disbanded, a wine club I was in would do blind tastings.

2. Yes. Specifically, Drouhin from both France and the Willamette Valley.

3. Rivers-Marie's Summa and pre-2012 Kosta Browne's Sonoma Coast are the two that come immediately to mind.

4. Not sure of who is and who isn't part of this extended family, so I couldn't say except for there's a good probability I have sampled one or two. I wouldn't want to call them out by name anyway.


Can you answer one question for me? Why is there a cheese head smiley? cheesehead Are there lots of Packers fans here? [scratch.gif]
I do find that Drouhin in willamette seems to do much more fruit forward wines than I find in their comparably priced burgs. That has seemed to be true. I think they are an example of a producer where you actually get more for your money in Burgundy. why that is, and if that is something that should be extrapolated, I can't say for sure.

I also think the inclusion of California pinot definitely changes the discussion as far as confection notes and sweetness. I absolutely find it more in cali pinot than willamette (in general).

The good news is, there is no wine-preference police. if thats the note you get, and its not your favorite, thats more for me to buy! I think its an interesting one, mostly because its not a note I've noticed except in some of the more mass-market WV pinots that actually do have RS, but like I said before, I really don't think those are representative. then again, going back to my OP, maybe thats exactly the problem. Wines made by berserkers and wines enjoyed by berserkers are probably not the $20-30 bottles that MOST people are tasting labelled WV. they are buying Eluon, or Willametter (and thinking its a WV wine) or they're blowing it out for a bottle of Belle Glos on a big occasion. maybe thats where the podcast host was having issues too.

as far as the cheesehead.... no idea.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#44 Post by Hank Victor » February 5th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Robert Dentice wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:57 am
If you are talking about Pinot specifically the answer is Germany!

Spatbürgunder in Germany has improved dramatically in the last 3-5 years an in particular at this price point.

To answer the original question I would give it to Oregon however if you were to include Beaujolais then it would be a more difficult question.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#45 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 5th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Ian S wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 10:29 am
3. Rivers-Marie's Summa and pre-2012 Kosta Browne's Sonoma Coast are the two that come immediately to mind.

4. Not sure of who is and who isn't part of this extended family, so I couldn't say except for there's a good probability I have sampled one or two. I wouldn't want to call them out by name anyway.
Well, you'd be hard pressed to pick 2 US Pinots more diametrically different in style than your preferred $30-ish Burgundy from Charles Audoin, Hudelot-Nöellat, and Nicolas Potel. But I do understand that it's not the style differences but the aspartame that bothers you.

Cyril Audoin is a regular at IPNC. I've tasted his wines compared to OR Pinots quite a few times. They've never struck me as being clearly better than a dozen or more OR producers, sometimes underperforming (as one should expect)...but "a chacun son gout" as the saying goes. Burgundians have an unusual interest in Oregon including: Ms. Drouhin, Jacques Lardiere (Jadot/Resonance); Dominique Lafon (Comtes Lafon/Evening land and Lingua Franca); Jean Nicolas Meo (Meo-Camuzet/Nicolas Jay); Louis-Michel Liger-Belair (Liger-Belair/Chapter 24). There are quite a number of additional Burgundians showing interest and making wines in OR. Thomas Savre of Lingua Franca (winemaker) is an example with experience working at both DRC and Nicky Potel. I believe they're focusing on OR based on perceived potential...but I suppose there could be other reasons.

Even considering the French invasion, I still recommend that you try more of the wines from the OR producers I've mentioned. Better yet, visit them, taste and tap in to the knowledge and experiences. It's time very well spent IMHO.

RT

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#46 Post by Thomas Keim » February 5th, 2019, 4:48 pm

No comparison if we are talking whites (in my book) - The Maconnais and the Cotes de Chalonnaise are two of my favorite white appellations in the world - with SO MANY great wines under $30 -

A good search does turn up some wonderful Pinot Noirs under $30 in Oregon - but we are talking about much different styles of wine. If you like a jammier style of Pinot; than Oregon - I tend to like the racier lesser appellations of Burgundy; Haute Cotes de Nuits, Mercurey, Givry etc -
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#47 Post by Mattstolz » February 5th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 4:48 pm
No comparison if we are talking whites (in my book) - The Maconnais and the Cotes de Chalonnaise are two of my favorite white appellations in the world - with SO MANY great wines under $30 -

A good search does turn up some wonderful Pinot Noirs under $30 in Oregon - but we are talking about much different styles of wine. If you like a jammier style of Pinot; than Oregon - I tend to like the racier lesser appellations of Burgundy; Haute Cotes de Nuits, Mercurey, Givry etc -
I agree about the whites, especially when you include Chablis in the mix, Burgundy has some of the best bang for your buck whites I can think of. Also true when including Aligote.

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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#48 Post by Howard Cooper » February 5th, 2019, 6:04 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:52 pm
I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.
I think that would be fun. I generally enjoy your first three producers, and think they deliver pretty good value.

For Oregon, Evesham Wood, Patricia Green, Goodfellow(my wine, but value has always been a priority for me), Walter Scott, Vincent, Belle Pente, Hundred Suns, or Martin-Wood.

Although in general, I think that the 80% of less than stellar producers need to be accounted for as well. Low end Burgundy as a whole, can definitely struggle with quality. And Oregon has so many new producers lacking significant experience, along with no shortage of wines with more fruit than spine.

Still, it would be fun to go head to head.
Why would any of us consumers care about wines (from Burgundy or Oregon) from less than stellar producers. We come here to learn who the stellar producers are.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#49 Post by Mattstolz » February 5th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:04 pm


Why would any of us consumers care about wines (from Burgundy or Oregon) from less than stellar producers. We come here to learn who the stellar producers are.
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Re: [Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

#50 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 5th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 4:48 pm
No comparison if we are talking whites (in my book) - The Maconnais and the Cotes de Chalonnaise are two of my favorite white appellations in the world - with SO MANY great wines under $30 -

A good search does turn up some wonderful Pinot Noirs under $30 in Oregon - but we are talking about much different styles of wine. If you like a jammier style of Pinot; than Oregon - I tend to like the racier lesser appellations of Burgundy; Haute Cotes de Nuits, Mercurey, Givry etc -
While you can buy jammy wines in Oregon, you don’t have to. I am more than willing to put my wines where my mouth is on this one. Every year I do a Burgundy tasting using my wines from Whistling Ridge to demonstrate Oregon’s ability to produce savory, structured wines with old world balance. And to work to dispel the notion that we only do fruit.

But you can buy entry level wines from Eyrie, Cameron, Evesham Wood, J. Christopher, Martin Wood, and Patricia Green as well.

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