"Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

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J Dove
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#251 Post by J Dove » February 5th, 2019, 5:41 pm

It's going to be interesting to see whether demand from emerging markets offsets the reduction in demand that comes from weed and a general economy that favors a $100 bottle of single malt or bourbon over fine wine. If we see a solid recession, wine is going to get really cheap. I predict really great buying opportunities in a year or two.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#252 Post by CWun » February 5th, 2019, 6:05 pm

Bars/desks in the office definitely have lots of bourbon/whisky on them...
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#253 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 5th, 2019, 6:15 pm

J Dove wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:41 pm
It's going to be interesting to see whether demand from emerging markets offsets the reduction in demand that comes from weed and a general economy that favors a $100 bottle of single malt or bourbon over fine wine. If we see a solid recession, wine is going to get really cheap. I predict really great buying opportunities in a year or two.
Hey, I buy scotch, too! Love me sum Islay malts. Most bourbons are like big oaky Napa Cabs to me, pass. ;)

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#254 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » February 5th, 2019, 7:51 pm

A possibility: Millennials are more well-informed re: wine than were previous generations. Information is much more readily-available than it once was. Millennials aren't suckers.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#255 Post by John Morris » February 6th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Tweet re millennials and wine.JPG
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#256 Post by Greg K » February 6th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:15 pm
J Dove wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:41 pm
It's going to be interesting to see whether demand from emerging markets offsets the reduction in demand that comes from weed and a general economy that favors a $100 bottle of single malt or bourbon over fine wine. If we see a solid recession, wine is going to get really cheap. I predict really great buying opportunities in a year or two.
Hey, I buy scotch, too! Love me sum Islay malts. Most bourbons are like big oaky Napa Cabs to me, pass. ;)
Somehow that doesn't surprise me. Raised in a Loire outhouse and spent his summers in a bog. neener
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#257 Post by James Billy » February 6th, 2019, 10:27 pm

J Dove wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:41 pm
It's going to be interesting to see whether demand from emerging markets offsets the reduction in demand that comes from weed and a general economy that favors a $100 bottle of single malt or bourbon over fine wine. If we see a solid recession, wine is going to get really cheap. I predict really great buying opportunities in a year or two.
Especially if China doesn't manage to dodge the bullet this time.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#258 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 7th, 2019, 5:23 am

Greg K wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 6:15 pm
J Dove wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:41 pm
It's going to be interesting to see whether demand from emerging markets offsets the reduction in demand that comes from weed and a general economy that favors a $100 bottle of single malt or bourbon over fine wine. If we see a solid recession, wine is going to get really cheap. I predict really great buying opportunities in a year or two.
Hey, I buy scotch, too! Love me sum Islay malts. Most bourbons are like big oaky Napa Cabs to me, pass. ;)
Somehow that doesn't surprise me. Raised in a Loire outhouse and spent his college summers in a Fog. neener
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#259 Post by Markus S » February 7th, 2019, 5:40 am

Eric Lundblad wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 5:23 pm
.... didn't seem worth it while it's being swamped by law/etc talk.
But wine laws help define what is available to certain states and markets. I know lawyers are pita's that think they are the end all and be all to everything in the world (and in some sense true, considering they can literally pull the plug from your life support!), but laws really do have a direct effect on how people live and what gets talked about and limits our choices as to what we can do and say. Scary, isn't it? At least wine is their lubrication of choice...
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#260 Post by B Thorne » February 7th, 2019, 8:07 am

The thing I think is missed on a lot of these conversations is the immense push made by top-tier athletes on wine. Gronk was swigging a Hundred Acre bottle on top of the Super Bowl parade float. LeBron makes a habit of sharing his pictures of wine. There are countless other examples. This is a relatively new trend. Consider this a leading indicator on the way millennials will consume. Think back to 00’s and the ‘rise’ of champagne (Armand de Brignac, anyone?) becoming popular as club promoters and rappers started including them in their songs / pictures / music videos.

Don’t sleep on the millennials. You heard it here first.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#261 Post by David Kubiak » February 7th, 2019, 10:30 am

I am in a college setting and it is quite striking how any kind of alcohol is being ideologically stigmatized. The people here in charge of instructing students would call Romanée-Conti a 'drug' and lump it right in with meth.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#262 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » February 7th, 2019, 11:01 am

Where are you attending, David?
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#263 Post by B Thorne » February 7th, 2019, 11:12 am

I’d imagine you’re an exception to the rule and alcohol being compared to meth is not a national trend by any means.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#264 Post by Eric B. DBA » February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

Few things here...First off, i am a Millennial. Born in 1984. Secondly, I love wine...that lends some context.
I used to rage against my generation, however now, the boomers have taken that place.
Why we don't like fine wine...
1. It's stupidly expensive now. Producers have jacked up prices far faster than inflation and our wage increases.
2. We've been crippled with student loan debt. Cost of education is nowhere near what it used to be. Cost of everything in general has risen faster than wages. Personally, I was very smart about my cost of education and that has enabled my wine passion to a degree.
3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.

We don't like wine, we don't buy homes, we don't have children. All primarily driven by #2 and #3.
Last edited by Eric B. DBA on February 7th, 2019, 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#265 Post by Brandon R » February 7th, 2019, 11:57 am

Well, Eric, that post certainly won't be around for long!
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#266 Post by Eric B. DBA » February 7th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Brandon R wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:57 am
Well, Eric, that post certainly won't be around for long!
haha, just providing a brutally honest opinion of why we don't like/can't afford wine. I have nothing against individuals that may belong to a certain generation named above.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#267 Post by Kirk.Grant » February 7th, 2019, 12:16 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
Few things here...First off, i am a Millennial. Born in 1984. Secondly, I love wine...that lends some context.
I used to rage against my generation, however now, the boomers have taken that place.
Why we don't like fine wine...
1. It's stupidly expensive now. Producers have jacked up prices far faster than inflation and our wage increases.
2. We've been crippled with student loan debt. Cost of education is nowhere near what it used to be. Cost of everything in general has risen faster than wages. Personally, I was very smart about my cost of education and that has enabled my wine passion to a degree.
3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.

We don't like wine, we don't buy homes, we don't have children. All primarily driven by #2 and #3.
I think Eric is making a valid observation. If he feels like the 65+ are protecting their money at his expense then why would he spend money on lavish expenses? Millennials appear to see the GenX and Boomers that we’re keeping up with the Jones’. When they are seeing people enter into retirement that are starting to struggle to pay rent at a “reasonable” price with limited savings; of course they’re going to try to correct their course and make different decisions.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#268 Post by MBerto » February 7th, 2019, 2:10 pm

Dawn of humanity; first communcation between proto-humans living in caves:
"hunnnnnnngh-guh-guh-guh-hurrrrrrrrrgghgh"
Translation: "New generation bad"
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#269 Post by Brandon R » February 7th, 2019, 3:29 pm

So, so true, Matt. So true.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#270 Post by David Kubiak » February 7th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:01 am
Where are you attending, David?

Brian,
It would be indiscreet to name my college since I am on the faculty. But basically the students are instructed about how alcohol is treated by 'the system' if they were to be arrested on an alcohol-related charge. I have seen the sheet where alcohol is in the same list with cocaine, meth, oxycontin, etc, -- a 'drug of choice'. And I had no idea that you cannot enter Canada if you have a DUI, irrespective of whether it was achieved with a DRC bottle. Attitudes were much, much more relaxed when I was in college in the 60's.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#271 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » February 7th, 2019, 6:25 pm

That's fair, David. [cheers.gif]
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#272 Post by Gary York » February 7th, 2019, 8:41 pm

Plenty of people suckling off the tit of the Govt. and not only in the South. Southern California maybe.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#273 Post by Craig G » February 7th, 2019, 10:37 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
Why we don't like fine wine...
1. It's stupidly expensive now. Producers have jacked up prices far faster than inflation and our wage increases.
I don’t think this is quite accurate, though it certainly does apply for many individual wines. In my opinion what has happened is that the market has “stretched” so that the higher-placed wines have become disproportionately more expensive but those at the lower end have more or less kept pace with inflation. That includes a lot of pretty good wine, too. When I was first buying wine around 1987, I would buy Guigal Cotes du Rhône for $6-7. Now I can buy it for $13-15, which is just about the inflated original cost. On the other hand, higher end wines I like (e.g. super-second Bordeaux) have gone up 4-5x or double inflation, and top wines perhaps 10x.

Obviously this is not good overall for wine lovers, but there is some good news that there are many more good wines available in the lower end of the market (say up to $30). If you shop carefully that still can include wines that will age very well.

BTW there are some very good higher end wines that have only roughly kept pace with inflation, like Dom Perignon and Ch. D’Yquem.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#274 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 8th, 2019, 4:40 am

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.
.
What a crock! This doesn't belong in this thread. It is a one sided statement, that is horseshit, and any arguement for or against, would surely break the "politics" rule that would make a moderator lock this down.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#275 Post by Brian Tuite » February 8th, 2019, 6:26 am

Late to This thread but since it’s “going viral” i thought I’d start reading it a bit.
Markus S wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:00 am

Don't believe this, because it doesn't always work out that way. If you 'only' have a college degree, your income will be as stagnant as a factory worker. Heaven help you if you have even less education.

That’s the biggest line of BS. School was never my favorite thing to do and I went from High School directly into the work force. I worked my way up the industry I chose and when I felt like I hit a ceiling I moved on to a new challenge. I now own my own business and wouldn’t have it any other way. I got here through a strong work ethic, integrity and dedication, not a college degree or help from Heaven. I did not look at what my peers were doing and think I had to do the same thing. I carved out the path I wanted to follow. The mindset that one needs to go into debt for life with massive school loans in order to be successful is wrong.

My Son is a HS graduate and aspired to be a professional skateboarder. In his mid-20s he decided he had to work for a living. He got a job as an eddy technician inspecting welds at large chemical plants/refineries/mfg facilities. 6 years later he owns his own home in the Bay Area quit his job and started his own inspection business. He now contracts with Bayer Pharmaceuticals for big bucks.

Now I’m not saying not to get an education but I am saying a higher education is not the end all be all. My Step-Daughter has a Masters Degree in Public Administration but she’d rather he a stay at home Mom. It’s more about your drive for success than the amount education because if the drive isn’t there to apply that education or if you have more important goals what’s the point?

Set realistic goals, don’t expect to be the man at 25-30. Don’t expect all the things at 30 that previous generations worked a lifetime to achieve. Ground yourself and work your ass off. That’s how it works in the real world. Tjose skinny jeans seem to be cutting off circulation to peoples brains.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#276 Post by Eric B. DBA » February 8th, 2019, 8:31 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 4:40 am
Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.
.
What a crock! This doesn't belong in this thread. It is a one sided statement, that is horseshit, and any arguement for or against, would surely break the "politics" rule that would make a moderator lock this down.
Everything I said above is factually accurate, minus my tax exposure which is TBD. My overall point is that we millennials have far less discretionary spending dollars available due to some significant things that are beyond our control.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#277 Post by Brandon R » February 8th, 2019, 8:40 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 6:26 am
Late to This thread but since it’s “going viral” i thought I’d start reading it a bit.
Markus S wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:00 am

Don't believe this, because it doesn't always work out that way. If you 'only' have a college degree, your income will be as stagnant as a factory worker. Heaven help you if you have even less education.

That’s the biggest line of BS. School was never my favorite thing to do and I went from High School directly into the work force. I worked my way up the industry I chose and when I felt like I hit a ceiling I moved on to a new challenge. I now own my own business and wouldn’t have it any other way. I got here through a strong work ethic, integrity and dedication, not a college degree or help from Heaven. I did not look at what my peers were doing and think I had to do the same thing. I carved out the path I wanted to follow. The mindset that one needs to go into debt for life with massive school loans in order to be successful is wrong.

My Son is a HS graduate and aspired to be a professional skateboarder. In his mid-20s he decided he had to work for a living. He got a job as an eddy technician inspecting welds at large chemical plants/refineries/mfg facilities. 6 years later he owns his own home in the Bay Area quit his job and started his own inspection business. He now contracts with Bayer Pharmaceuticals for big bucks.

Now I’m not saying not to get an education but I am saying a higher education is not the end all be all. My Step-Daughter has a Masters Degree in Public Administration but she’d rather he a stay at home Mom. It’s more about your drive for success than the amount education because if the drive isn’t there to apply that education or if you have more important goals what’s the point?

Set realistic goals, don’t expect to be the man at 25-30. Don’t expect all the things at 30 that previous generations worked a lifetime to achieve. Ground yourself and work your ass off. That’s how it works in the real world. Tjose skinny jeans seem to be cutting off circulation to peoples brains.
Can we have POTY even thought it's only Feb. 8? Nicely said, Brian.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#278 Post by MBerto » February 8th, 2019, 8:59 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 6:26 am
Late to This thread but since it’s “going viral” i thought I’d start reading it a bit.
Markus S wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:00 am

Don't believe this, because it doesn't always work out that way. If you 'only' have a college degree, your income will be as stagnant as a factory worker. Heaven help you if you have even less education.
My Son is a HS graduate and aspired to be a professional skateboarder. In his mid-20s he decided he had to work for a living. He got a job as an eddy technician inspecting welds at large chemical plants/refineries/mfg facilities. 6 years later he owns his own home in the Bay Area quit his job and started his own inspection business. He now contracts with Bayer Pharmaceuticals for big bucks.

Now I’m not saying not to get an education but I am saying a higher education is not the end all be all. My Step-Daughter has a Masters Degree in Public Administration but she’d rather he a stay at home Mom. It’s more about your drive for success than the amount education because if the drive isn’t there to apply that education or if you have more important goals what’s the point?
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#279 Post by Al Osterheld » February 8th, 2019, 9:09 am

The tax liability is poorly correlated with boomer vs millenial status, much more strongly dependent on other factors. In any case, the changes aren't a huge factor in disposable income for most people buying wine. Millenials do have challenges related to finding a steady job with a good income, but it sounds like you have managed that challenge. College loans can be a big factor, again sounds like you managed that area better than many. Depending on where a person lives, housing costs are a big factor (and often related to zoning laws). But, most of these challenges are more about income class than age, most boomers aren't wealthy nor will they be big beneficiaries of the tax changes. To the extent that some of these factors are related to laws that have been passed, note that there are as many millenials as boomers.

I agree with Craig that there is still an incredible amount of interesting and affordable wine. Yes, the high end in some regions has become quite expensive (because of a world-wide increase in middle to upper middle class with interest in wine). But, no need to chase those (I mostly do not).

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#280 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 8th, 2019, 1:59 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:31 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 4:40 am
Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.
.
What a crock! This doesn't belong in this thread. It is a one sided statement, that is horseshit, and any arguement for or against, would surely break the "politics" rule that would make a moderator lock this down.
Everything I said above is factually accurate, minus my tax exposure which is TBD. My overall point is that we millennials have far less discretionary spending dollars available due to some significant things that are beyond our control.
Wether I agree or not, that is a much better way of saying it. The other reeks of psudo-economics/politics, which would be fun to debate, just not here.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#281 Post by JDavisRoby » February 8th, 2019, 2:14 pm

Finished listening to Levi Dalton’s interview with Ehren Jordan today on his podcast. Jordan mentioned the “hipsterization” of wine. It was a discussion about the growth of small wineries that are doing wines from grapes outside the mainstream 4-6 we all know. I took his comments as the younger “hipster” crowd wanting to know everything about a wine or a grape. Much deeper than any wine buyer before partly because more info out there than ever before. And a willingness to try something weird which tends to be cheaper. Got me thinking about this thread.

Is the better comparison wine to golf rather than wine to beer? Golf is undergoing a hipster influx led by folks like Andy Johnson (Fried Egg), Erik Anders Lang, Stephen Malbon, etc. They have huge Instagram followers and focus on courses and style that is accessible and eschew the private overmanicured enclaves of the previous generations.

Is this similar to a younger crowd willing to try an all natural or “handmade” wine vs shelling out cash for the high end Napa Cabs?

I met the assistant winemaker from Day Wines (Not the same as Jordan’s Day) earlier this week. He was telling me how in Portland it seems everyone is making wine. Your waiter at nice a restaurant will tell you about his personal wine project. Is this the way Millennials will engage with wine?

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#282 Post by Alan Rath » February 8th, 2019, 2:20 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:31 am
My overall point is that we millennials have far less discretionary spending dollars available due to some significant things that are beyond our control.
Honestly, I think every generation thinks this. I'm a mid-curve boomer, and when I was the age of the average millenial, most of my income went to mortgage, household expenses, kids expenses, etc. I wasn't buying expensive wines.

Some things are better today, some worse; and yes, if you want to live in expensive parts of the Bay Area (are there non-expensive parts?) most will really be stretching - I could never live on the Peninsula, even 30 years ago.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#283 Post by Brian Tuite » February 8th, 2019, 5:45 pm

MBerto wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:59 am


Do they drink wine
My Son does only if I pour it, otherwise he’s a beer guy just as I was at that age. I couldn’t afford to get into wine until my late 40s. My Step-Daughter loves wine and she and her husband are avid tasters/buyers.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#284 Post by johngonzales » February 8th, 2019, 11:23 pm

MBerto wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 10:42 am
My cohorts and I will not stop until everything beloved by boomers is dead and buried and erased from the history books.
But wait, aren’t millennials the beloved off-spring of boomers? Can we count on the self-extinction soon?

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#285 Post by johngonzales » February 8th, 2019, 11:57 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:31 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 4:40 am
Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am

3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.
.
What a crock! This doesn't belong in this thread. It is a one sided statement, that is horseshit, and any arguement for or against, would surely break the "politics" rule that would make a moderator lock this down.
Everything I said above is factually accurate, minus my tax exposure which is TBD. My overall point is that we millennials have far less discretionary spending dollars available due to some significant things that are beyond our control.
Perhaps you should have just made that point without the superfluous, combative, and quasi-political tilt.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#286 Post by johngonzales » February 9th, 2019, 12:16 am

Alan Rath wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 2:20 pm
Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 8:31 am
My overall point is that we millennials have far less discretionary spending dollars available due to some significant things that are beyond our control.
Honestly, I think every generation thinks this. I'm a mid-curve boomer, and when I was the age of the average millenial, most of my income went to mortgage, household expenses, kids expenses, etc. I wasn't buying expensive wines.

Some things are better today, some worse; and yes, if you want to live in expensive parts of the Bay Area (are there non-expensive parts?) most will really be stretching - I could never live on the Peninsula, even 30 years ago.
Yes, I agree that just as the older set yells get off my lawn at the younger set, like our parents did with us, the younger set looks at how the older set has benefits just like we did with OUR parents. I do think the student loan debt is a different, additional expense. But otherwise most of us weren’t buying fine wine either. I wasn’t spending on some things that younger people spend on either. I think the discussion really is a result of younger people socializing here with older people. It’s just as much age as it is a difference in generations.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#287 Post by Al Osterheld » February 9th, 2019, 9:26 am

Like any "generation", the boomers aren't a uniform group. The younger half of the boomers also faced some challenges acquiring the same things as their parents and gave rise to a group called yuppies who share some features with millenials and who were written about in fairly similar ways. They were an educated aspirational part of the population who delayed having families while they tried to establish careers and acquire means to buy a house. House prices were lower but mortgage rates varied from 10% to 15% during this period. In part because they weren't paying off mortgages, they spent more money on cars, clothes, and entertainment (including wine).

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#288 Post by Alan Rath » February 9th, 2019, 9:59 am

johngonzales wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:16 am
I do think the student loan debt is a different, additional expense.
Tuition is definitely an area that has changed, and can become a significant expense for those who make the choice (or in some cases have no choice) to take on a lot of debt. As Al says, though, interest rates are so much better today than they were for long stretches of many boomer's early working lives. I remember my first car loan in 1979 was at something like 17%, and my first home loan in 1991 was about 8%.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#289 Post by johngonzales » February 9th, 2019, 11:18 am

Alan Rath wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 9:59 am
johngonzales wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:16 am
I do think the student loan debt is a different, additional expense.
Tuition is definitely an area that has changed, and can become a significant expense for those who make the choice (or in some cases have no choice) to take on a lot of debt. As Al says, though, interest rates are so much better today than they were for long stretches of many boomer's early working lives. I remember my first car loan in 1979 was at something like 17%, and my first home loan in 1991 was about 8%.
Yep. Remember how low our UCSD tuition was? It’s dramatically higher, but it really isn’t astronomical. One can get a UC degree even without help from parents or aide and get a four year degree without being in a complete hole. UC Rocks!

You are spot on regarding house payments. Yes, the prices have gone way up. But even that is locale dependent, and if one doesn’t insist on living in prime coastal areas, the run-up has been less. Then comes the interest-based payment amount. I remember when I first got into the building business mortgage rates were into double digits. It went down from there but as you said 8% was a norm. Granted, have a great loan now that isn’t norm, but I pay 1.91%. Still though if over time one takes a quadrupling of prices, yet a halving of interest rates, and a doubling of earnings, it isn’t some impossible formula. Of course that’s dependent upon where one wants to live.

I actually don’t think that millennials different tendencies are really the majority influence on the wine market. The top end has gotten more expensive for everyone. Yet the world-wide demand has really grown. So those collectible bottles have gone up. But at the same time, there is a LOT more of what is still “fine wine” being made. So supply has acted to keep the price of a good (not great) bottle down.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#290 Post by Philip G » February 9th, 2019, 1:00 pm

johngonzales wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 11:18 am
I actually don’t think that millennials different tendencies are really the majority influence on the wine market. The top end has gotten more expensive for everyone. Yet the world-wide demand has really grown. So those collectible bottles have gone up. But at the same time, there is a LOT more of what is still “fine wine” being made. So supply has acted to keep the price of a good (not great) bottle down.
The expansion of middle-upper class China is contributing to the demand for high end wines. They're looking for high-end western products to spend their new wealth on. I think it's mainly influencing France, not sure about US.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#291 Post by Gary York » February 9th, 2019, 2:35 pm

So come on out and have fun. And we hope you like the wine too.

https://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2019/02 ... revolution
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#292 Post by Howard Cooper » February 9th, 2019, 2:38 pm

Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
Few things here...First off, i am a Millennial. Born in 1984. Secondly, I love wine...that lends some context.
I used to rage against my generation, however now, the boomers have taken that place.
Why we don't like fine wine...
1. It's stupidly expensive now. Producers have jacked up prices far faster than inflation and our wage increases.
2. We've been crippled with student loan debt. Cost of education is nowhere near what it used to be. Cost of everything in general has risen faster than wages. Personally, I was very smart about my cost of education and that has enabled my wine passion to a degree.
3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.

We don't like wine, we don't buy homes, we don't have children. All primarily driven by #2 and #3.
That is because you also don’t vote.
Howard

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#293 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » February 9th, 2019, 3:05 pm

Brian Tuite wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 6:26 am
Late to This thread but since it’s “going viral” i thought I’d start reading it a bit.
Markus S wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:00 am

Don't believe this, because it doesn't always work out that way. If you 'only' have a college degree, your income will be as stagnant as a factory worker. Heaven help you if you have even less education.

That’s the biggest line of BS. School was never my favorite thing to do and I went from High School directly into the work force. I worked my way up the industry I chose and when I felt like I hit a ceiling I moved on to a new challenge. I now own my own business and wouldn’t have it any other way. I got here through a strong work ethic, integrity and dedication, not a college degree or help from Heaven. I did not look at what my peers were doing and think I had to do the same thing. I carved out the path I wanted to follow. The mindset that one needs to go into debt for life with massive school loans in order to be successful is wrong.

My Son is a HS graduate and aspired to be a professional skateboarder. In his mid-20s he decided he had to work for a living. He got a job as an eddy technician inspecting welds at large chemical plants/refineries/mfg facilities. 6 years later he owns his own home in the Bay Area quit his job and started his own inspection business. He now contracts with Bayer Pharmaceuticals for big bucks.

Now I’m not saying not to get an education but I am saying a higher education is not the end all be all. My Step-Daughter has a Masters Degree in Public Administration but she’d rather he a stay at home Mom. It’s more about your drive for success than the amount education because if the drive isn’t there to apply that education or if you have more important goals what’s the point?

Set realistic goals, don’t expect to be the man at 25-30. Don’t expect all the things at 30 that previous generations worked a lifetime to achieve. Ground yourself and work your ass off. That’s how it works in the real world. Tjose skinny jeans seem to be cutting off circulation to peoples brains.
+1

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#294 Post by AlexS » February 9th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 2:38 pm
Eric B. DBA wrote:
February 7th, 2019, 11:39 am
Few things here...First off, i am a Millennial. Born in 1984. Secondly, I love wine...that lends some context.
I used to rage against my generation, however now, the boomers have taken that place.
Why we don't like fine wine...
1. It's stupidly expensive now. Producers have jacked up prices far faster than inflation and our wage increases.
2. We've been crippled with student loan debt. Cost of education is nowhere near what it used to be. Cost of everything in general has risen faster than wages. Personally, I was very smart about my cost of education and that has enabled my wine passion to a degree.
3. Boomers insist on protecting their wealth with tax cuts that we Millennials will have to pay for some day, and currently don't benefit from. I make a good wage and in general should benefit from GOP tax reform, however I'm going to see a tax increase this year in all likelihood. I have to pay even more to subsidize wealthy tax cuts as well as the people in the south sucking off the govt tit.

We don't like wine, we don't buy homes, we don't have children. All primarily driven by #2 and #3.
That is because you also don’t vote.
Yeah, no...try again Howard:
There has been no consistent trend of youth voter turnout decline or improvement over the past 40 years. As the figure below shows, Millennials are turning out at similar rates to the previous two generations when they face their first elections.
Image

https://ssir.org/articles/entry/do_we_a ... er_turnout
s t e w @ r t

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#295 Post by Howard Cooper » February 9th, 2019, 3:17 pm

So right now, impacting policy right now, 68% of boomers vote and 45% of millennials vote, proving my point.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#296 Post by DanielP » February 9th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:17 pm
So right now, impacting policy right now, 68% of boomers vote and 45% of millennials vote, proving my point.
Depends on what the overall point is. Yes, people are more likely to vote the older they get. But, I thought the overall discussion revolved around whether millennials are currently economically better/same/worse off than than other generations were at the same age. If that's still the discussion, then millenial voting frequency is not a major contributing factor (though the data shows that boomers still voted more frequently than millenials)
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#297 Post by Ian H » February 9th, 2019, 3:43 pm

DanielP wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:32 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:17 pm
So right now, impacting policy right now, 68% of boomers vote and 45% of millennials vote, proving my point.
Depends on what the overall point is. Yes, people are more likely to vote the older they get. But, I thought the overall discussion revolved around whether millennials are currently economically better/same/worse off than than other generations were at the same age. If that's still the discussion, then millenial voting frequency is not a major contributing factor (though the data shows that boomers still voted more frequently than millenials)
The discussion seems to be at an impasse. A couple millennials voiced some complaints / opinions that would make any Gen X'er or Boomer super annoyed, and a couple Gen X'er's and Boomers voiced some complaints / opinions that would make any millennial super annoyed.

On the voting point alone, I agree more with Howard's side of the debate. We live in the here and now and younger people today should vote more. Similar to how younger generations in the past should have voted more. Older generations today can't get in a time machine and go back and vote more frequently, but younger people today can do so (but thus far aren't).

What's this have to do with wine? Still trying to figure that out.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#298 Post by Howard Cooper » February 9th, 2019, 4:39 pm

Ian H wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:43 pm
DanielP wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:32 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 3:17 pm
So right now, impacting policy right now, 68% of boomers vote and 45% of millennials vote, proving my point.
Depends on what the overall point is. Yes, people are more likely to vote the older they get. But, I thought the overall discussion revolved around whether millennials are currently economically better/same/worse off than than other generations were at the same age. If that's still the discussion, then millenial voting frequency is not a major contributing factor (though the data shows that boomers still voted more frequently than millenials)
The discussion seems to be at an impasse. A couple millennials voiced some complaints / opinions that would make any Gen X'er or Boomer super annoyed, and a couple Gen X'er's and Boomers voiced some complaints / opinions that would make any millennial super annoyed.

On the voting point alone, I agree more with Howard's side of the debate. We live in the here and now and younger people today should vote more. Similar to how younger generations in the past should have voted more. Older generations today can't get in a time machine and go back and vote more frequently, but younger people today can do so (but thus far aren't).

What's this have to do with wine? Still trying to figure that out.
Yes. Frankly, the lower voting rates for boomers in the past had much more dire consequences for boomers than anything happening to millennials today. We had a draft (fortunately I was too young for this) and over 50,000 boomers were killed in Vietnam with hundreds of thousands wounded or with other permanent problems. Much worse than student loan debt.

But, until younger people vote in greater numbers, policy will always be weighted toward the interests of older people.
Howard

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#299 Post by Al Osterheld » February 9th, 2019, 4:58 pm

I think the real question, a central question that was raised by the article, is whether millennials will become interested in wine as they acquire additional discretionary income in similar percentages to recent generations. I think that's not clear. If it was just about financial aspects, that's an effect that would likely go away over time. If it's about not being as interested in wine as beer or spirits, viewing wine/alcohol as less healthy than previous generations did, or cannabis affecting wine sales, etc., that might not change as the financial status of millennials as a group improves.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#300 Post by AlexS » February 9th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Of course, on a historic basis, boomers are voting even less but let's not ruin the youth-shaming narrative:

Image

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/r ... erica.html
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