"Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

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Keith A k e r s
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#201 Post by Keith A k e r s » February 3rd, 2019, 1:31 pm

Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 7:52 am
I agree Jeremy.

There are two great advantages that Millennials have that I didn't have (born1969). There is so much incredible, relatively inexpensive wine out there, that is fairly easily accessed. Just look at Berserker Day, even without discounts, there were tons of amazing, affordable wines for sale, and potential long term relatinships/access with winemakers, that will reward for years to come. Also, (I am saying this with a flame retardant suit on), I think newer generations are/will be more AFWE... Heck, I would have considered myself lucky to have never gotten caught up in the "Highly Allocated Critically Acclaimed Wine Market". Pining over 100 point BS that was unattainable and unaffordable. If anything Millennials might benefit from the "lack of a movement" in wine today (unless there is one that I don't know) as the critic's voice seems less important than ever.

There is a great articleI just read in Garden and Gun Magazine Feb/March edition about craft-cocktail renaissance. Not directly correlating, but tangential.

Within the world of this forum and the online outlets that most of us will follow, I would agree with this. But, from my time in retail, this wasn't really the case. I sold all sorts of spanish, argentine, chilean, and aussie wines to millenials and younger people (I turn 39 in a matter of months, so I have no clue what generation I get smushed in). A lot of that could come down to what those wines cost, but they certainly aren't AWFE-type wines. I think this also figures in a lot with IG too as I get rec'd all the time pages that are napa focused from influencers and those accounts seem to have a lot of followers and there is carryover as well.

The bigger thing is that where a millenial/younger person gets their recs from is less and less from singular sources like WA or WS. There are tons of blogs and IG accounts that weigh into buying decisions that were never there before.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#202 Post by Philip G » February 3rd, 2019, 2:32 pm

Craig G wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 10:39 pm
Gary York wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Two things that are killing wine:

1. Craft cocktail
2. Craft beer

Pushed by a lazy and uneducated press and aided by bar/restaurant owners that are lazy, uneducated and greedy. The simple quick easy profits are used to buy ads that drive coverage and are then used to push more of the same crap. So it goes round in a circle. Mixologists and beer gurus abound. Pushing tacos and fanatsy pizzas. Articles are running 10-1 against wine. I just wish I was going to live long enough to see these little twits grow up. Eventually they will turn to wine. But the damage will be done.
I won’t speak to cocktails, but you can go to lots of places and have a glass of really good beer for $6 or pretty crappy wine for $12. There’s essentially no place in the US where you can get really good glass of wine for $6 in a restaurant. That’s not the fault of craft beer.
This is very true. Our town is flooded with brewpubs with very good, locally made beer with lots of options. Around $5-$6 for a pint of darn good beer. I don't think you can even get a comparably good glass of wine for twice the price at a restaurant because the markups are 2x-4x.

The good news, I think, is that drinking craft beer eventually leads to drinking good wine. Their palates are getting trained on good and different beer and eventually, when their diet requires less beer, they will look for quality wine. Most of my college friends and similar aged work friend oenophiles came to wine through this path. Shortly after college most of my beer drinking buddies explored imported and craft beers and home brewing looking for something more enjoyable and unique and now our talk centers around wine and brown liquids.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#203 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 3rd, 2019, 3:18 pm

Craig G wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 11:05 am
Lawyers now ruining wine as well.
Since 1978!
Until Alice saved us in 2008. Too bad she's powerless against the millennials.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#204 Post by Craig G » February 3rd, 2019, 4:59 pm

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 3:18 pm
Craig G wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 11:05 am
Lawyers now ruining wine as well.
Since 1978!
Until Alice saved us in 2008. Too bad she's powerless against the millennials.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#205 Post by Jim Brennan » February 3rd, 2019, 5:55 pm

Lawyers ruining another thread... :-)

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#206 Post by Al Osterheld » February 3rd, 2019, 6:45 pm

Let's hope the millenials don't figure out who ruined things for them. Ah, they will, of course, maybe they will be forgiving.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#207 Post by Scott E. » February 3rd, 2019, 7:22 pm

Philip G wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 2:32 pm

The good news, I think, is that drinking craft beer eventually leads to drinking good wine. Their palates are getting trained on good and different beer and eventually, when their diet requires less beer, they will look for quality wine. Most of my college friends and similar aged work friend oenophiles came to wine through this path. Shortly after college most of my beer drinking buddies explored imported and craft beers and home brewing looking for something more enjoyable and unique and now our talk centers around wine and brown liquids.
Why is that good news?? I would rather see demand and prices decrease???
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#208 Post by James Billy » February 3rd, 2019, 8:18 pm

Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 7:52 am


I just read (in) Garden and Gun Magazine Feb/March edition
[wow.gif]

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#209 Post by Philip G » February 3rd, 2019, 9:19 pm

Scott E. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 7:22 pm
Philip G wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 2:32 pm

The good news, I think, is that drinking craft beer eventually leads to drinking good wine.
Why is that good news?? I would rather see demand and prices decrease???
Creating more demand for quality wine at reasonable prices is good news.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#210 Post by c fu » February 3rd, 2019, 9:21 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 12:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 7:09 am

Also, while law school tuitions are unbelievably high these days, even by college standards, the law student who can get jobs for the summer at major law firms make quite a bit of money that they can use to offset a portion of the cost. I have not followed this that closely, but I would think that summer associates at large firms might be making $3,000-$4,000 a week, depending on location.

Law clerks?!? Summer positions paying that much?!? You realize that's equivalent to $150k - $200k per year, right? As a student law clerk?!? LOL!!
In 2008 it was mid 30k a summer for a summer associate position at a cravath scale firm. Mind you we are probably talking in the numbers of a couple thousand ppl making that money (and I’m probably wayyyy over estimating) and that was at the height. I think summer associate classes are half the size now.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#211 Post by c fu » February 3rd, 2019, 10:08 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 8:28 am
Greg K wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 8:10 am

I generally agree with you that firms hire from local schools, in the same way that my firm hires from Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo, etc. But I think the overall point on law firms stands - it's become a far more haves and have nots profession as the last 50 years have evolved. Just look at the distribution of starting salaries - new graduates are either making top 50 associate money or they're making vastly less. That sort of distribution simply didn't exist before, when salaries were also bunched closer together, even though law schools assume everyone will be paid at that scale. It's also a much greater rat race. For all that we have our $1000 phones, we use them - 20 years ago when you were out of the office, you were not available. The last time I was genuinely not available to clients was when I went to Zimbabwe years ago. And clients expect that availability. The salaries are higher, the time commitments are greater, the opportunities for upward progression are less certain. Again, it's concentration at the top.

I will add, I find the notion that partners have it easy pretty ridiculous; most law firms are now run in ways that are somewhat similar to banks - lower performing partners get weeded out too. And relatively quickly. For whoever posted (not you Robert) that partners would rather fire all the 26 year olds than lower comp - that puts a ton of pressure on partners. And partners are more expensive, so are sometimes easier to get rid of than associates.


I cannot speak to starting salaries at smaller firms, but what are we talking about? Isn't that comp still generally quite decent? The public defender's office in Orlando starts at 60k. A young couple in their mid-20s pulling down 120k in Orlando ain't suffering. Any disparity between big law and regular law firms - and yes I'm sure that exists - isn't that prevalent in all professional services or business? The question for any new graduate is, do you really want to work those hours to make X, or are you willing to settle for less and have more life balance? When presented, it's a Faustian choice.
I’m not discussing salary discrepancies as Greg is very accurate. Just replying purely on what I quoted you on.

Dude. If you think 120k for two people with student loans is decent you don’t understand the strain many are under.

that couple right now is probably paying 3-4000 a month in student loan payments. They probably aren’t suffering, but they aren’t going out buying $50 bottles of wine for dinner. (Which is the whole crux of this) and aren’t amassing savings. They are probably living paycheck to paycheck, even in Florida with no state income tax.

I have friends in the early 30s making $140,000 a year, single, but can’t afford to buy a house in Los Angeles cause they are paying $2000 a month in student loans, $2000 a month in rent, a car payment, then utilities. They bank 10% to their 401k. Their take home is maybe 7k after state taxes, social security etc etc. 70% of their post tax paycheck goes just to those four things. That leaves them with maybe $2000 a month for everything else. So for food, clothing, misc costs, savings they have $2000 to spend.

My good friend worked four years at a Vault top 5 law firm after graduating in 2013. He made as good of money as you could make for any law student since his firm was on the cravath scale. His wife was a flight attendant. They bought a modest house 45 minutes away from Downtown Los Angeles in the outskirts of the city. He just went in house (paying good money but not cravath scale money) due to having two young kids at home. They just sold their house to help pay his student loans as it was getting too expensive to raise two young children with school costs and his massive student loans from a top 10 law school at nearly 7% interest. He is paying nearly 2750 a month to try and repay it back in ten years. And he’s in the minority of law school graduates that were able to secure Cravath scale salary.

We are talking about every single student that doesn’t have financial help from an outside source (vast majority) have this huge monthly debt burden. It is tough and it completely explains why high expense discretionary spending is dropping.

Student loans are a f*ck noose on the neck of anyone that has left graduate school since 2005 when the interest rate jumped and never came back down with the recession (kept going up). Then law school tuitions EXPLODED during the recession. https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/

It sucks dude. It sucks hard. You take out that 2000-2500 a month student loan payment and reduce it even in half and people are living significantly easier.

Just sit down with some of your 2rd-4th year associates and ask them to really detail out their cost of living to you. I think it’ll be shocking.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#212 Post by c fu » February 3rd, 2019, 10:11 pm

Also I'm probably one page away from moving this to asylum. LOL
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#213 Post by Craig G » February 3rd, 2019, 10:15 pm

c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:11 pm
Also I'm probably one page away from moving this to asylum. LOL
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#214 Post by Howard Cooper » February 4th, 2019, 4:53 am

c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:08 pm
I’m not discussing salary discrepancies as Greg is very accurate. Just replying purely on what I quoted you on.

Dude. If you think 120k for two people with student loans is decent you don’t understand the strain many are under.

that couple right now is probably paying 3-4000 a month in student loan payments. They probably aren’t suffering, but they aren’t going out buying $50 bottles of wine for dinner. (Which is the whole crux of this) and aren’t amassing savings. They are probably living paycheck to paycheck, even in Florida with no state income tax.

I have friends in the early 30s making $140,000 a year, single, but can’t afford to buy a house in Los Angeles cause they are paying $2000 a month in student loans, $2000 a month in rent, a car payment, then utilities. They bank 10% to their 401k. Their take home is maybe 7k after state taxes, social security etc etc. 70% of their post tax paycheck goes just to those four things. That leaves them with maybe $2000 a month for everything else. So for food, clothing, misc costs, savings they have $2000 to spend.

My good friend worked four years at a Vault top 5 law firm after graduating in 2013. He made as good of money as you could make for any law student since his firm was on the cravath scale. His wife was a flight attendant. They bought a modest house 45 minutes away from Downtown Los Angeles in the outskirts of the city. He just went in house (paying good money but not cravath scale money) due to having two young kids at home. They just sold their house to help pay his student loans as it was getting too expensive to raise two young children with school costs and his massive student loans from a top 10 law school at nearly 7% interest. He is paying nearly 2750 a month to try and repay it back in ten years. And he’s in the minority of law school graduates that were able to secure Cravath scale salary.

We are talking about every single student that doesn’t have financial help from an outside source (vast majority) have this huge monthly debt burden. It is tough and it completely explains why high expense discretionary spending is dropping.

Student loans are a f*ck noose on the neck of anyone that has left graduate school since 2005 when the interest rate jumped and never came back down with the recession (kept going up). Then law school tuitions EXPLODED during the recession. https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/

It sucks dude. It sucks hard. You take out that 2000-2500 a month student loan payment and reduce it even in half and people are living significantly easier.

Just sit down with some of your 2rd-4th year associates and ask them to really detail out their cost of living to you. I think it’ll be shocking.
Frankly, big law firm associates are not anywhere near the top of the list of the people in the world I feel sorry for. It does not really both me that 2nd-4th year associates (often translating into 27-30 year olds), even at big firms, cannot buy expensive wines. Today, it is because of student loans, in my day it was because of much lower starting salaries, but just getting a job at a top law firm should not assure you of a rich lifestyle. That should come, over time, if at all because someone does a good job, makes partner, develops a good practice and becomes Alfert.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#215 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 4th, 2019, 5:08 am

c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:08 pm
I’m not discussing salary discrepancies as Greg is very accurate. Just replying purely on what I quoted you on.

Dude. If you think 120k for two people with student loans is decent you don’t understand the strain many are under.

that couple right now is probably paying 3-4000 a month in student loan payments. They probably aren’t suffering, but they aren’t going out buying $50 bottles of wine for dinner. (Which is the whole crux of this) and aren’t amassing savings. They are probably living paycheck to paycheck, even in Florida with no state income tax.

I have friends in the early 30s making $140,000 a year, single, but can’t afford to buy a house in Los Angeles cause they are paying $2000 a month in student loans, $2000 a month in rent, a car payment, then utilities. They bank 10% to their 401k. Their take home is maybe 7k after state taxes, social security etc etc. 70% of their post tax paycheck goes just to those four things. That leaves them with maybe $2000 a month for everything else. So for food, clothing, misc costs, savings they have $2000 to spend.

My good friend worked four years at a Vault top 5 law firm after graduating in 2013. He made as good of money as you could make for any law student since his firm was on the cravath scale. His wife was a flight attendant. They bought a modest house 45 minutes away from Downtown Los Angeles in the outskirts of the city. He just went in house (paying good money but not cravath scale money) due to having two young kids at home. They just sold their house to help pay his student loans as it was getting too expensive to raise two young children with school costs and his massive student loans from a top 10 law school at nearly 7% interest. He is paying nearly 2750 a month to try and repay it back in ten years. And he’s in the minority of law school graduates that were able to secure Cravath scale salary.

We are talking about every single student that doesn’t have financial help from an outside source (vast majority) have this huge monthly debt burden. It is tough and it completely explains why high expense discretionary spending is dropping.

Student loans are a f*ck noose on the neck of anyone that has left graduate school since 2005 when the interest rate jumped and never came back down with the recession (kept going up). Then law school tuitions EXPLODED during the recession. https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/

It sucks dude. It sucks hard. You take out that 2000-2500 a month student loan payment and reduce it even in half and people are living significantly easier.

Just sit down with some of your 2rd-4th year associates and ask them to really detail out their cost of living to you. I think it’ll be shocking.
I will be the first to tell you, I am not as up to speed on the student debt issue, but I wonder the source for your numbers. If it is friends of yours that went to private schools and live in LA or comparable places, then I can see how the loans are overwhelming, but of course, someone made choices to be in that position (law school choice, city choice). US News publishes a listing of average student debt out of law school. The average from many of the state schools is under 100k, which does not translate to your 2-4k. UF is 88k average; Bama (now a top 25 law school) is 75k; Tx is 100k; GA is 82k. If a college grad wants to go to law school, and has no parental support or scholarships, i.e., funding 100% of law school, they need to make this business calculation. Yea I get that law schools brag about their placement rate and starting salaries, but where does personal responsibility and choice factor into this discussion? The debt comes with a repayment schedule.

But of course, I could be out of touch. I'm so country down here. But then again, just saw an associate pull in with a bmw.

I luv ya, bro, but your Cravath-like buddy is a not a great example. Just so readers are clear, Cravath pays its 2013 class 280k plus annual bonus, so breaking 300k. I don't think 99% of society will shed a tear for him. And you're example shows he has made lifestyle choices that have major financial implications. Top ten law school, so I assume private, very very expensive. A choice. He chose to live in LA, very expensive. He chose to keep his student loans on a 10 year cycle rather than extend to 20. He chose to leave the law firm and go inhouse. He chose to have 2 kids while grappling with this debt and choices. Maybe that sounds harsh, but these are all personal choices. Those personal choices are obviously to his satisifaction, or he would not do it, but I cannot be sad that he is not drinking the types of wine that another young LA lawyer buddy of mine drinks every night!

PS (edit). My reference above to the Cravath pay scale came from a June 2018 article, evidently that is now out-of-date, with Cravath senior associates now making up to 465k:

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018 ... ssociates/

Evidently they had a killer year. WIll be interesting to see which of the Cravath-scale firms will or have already matched.
Last edited by Robert.A.Jr. on February 4th, 2019, 6:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#216 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 4th, 2019, 6:00 am

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#217 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 4th, 2019, 6:24 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 1:31 pm
Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 7:52 am


The bigger thing is that where a millenial/younger person gets their recs from is less and less from singular sources like WA or WS. There are tons of blogs and IG accounts that weigh into buying decisions that were never there before.
Well said, this is kinda what I am talking about. Not so much AFWE, which I use only in erms of this discussion. The move seems-hopefully to me-to be going in the direction that there are great wines from everywhere, for every palate, not driven by a few periodicals or critics, but myriad sources... If that's millennials ruining wine, then good for them and us too.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#218 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 6:29 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 5:08 am
c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:08 pm
I’m not discussing salary discrepancies as Greg is very accurate. Just replying purely on what I quoted you on.

Dude. If you think 120k for two people with student loans is decent you don’t understand the strain many are under.

that couple right now is probably paying 3-4000 a month in student loan payments. They probably aren’t suffering, but they aren’t going out buying $50 bottles of wine for dinner. (Which is the whole crux of this) and aren’t amassing savings. They are probably living paycheck to paycheck, even in Florida with no state income tax.

I have friends in the early 30s making $140,000 a year, single, but can’t afford to buy a house in Los Angeles cause they are paying $2000 a month in student loans, $2000 a month in rent, a car payment, then utilities. They bank 10% to their 401k. Their take home is maybe 7k after state taxes, social security etc etc. 70% of their post tax paycheck goes just to those four things. That leaves them with maybe $2000 a month for everything else. So for food, clothing, misc costs, savings they have $2000 to spend.

My good friend worked four years at a Vault top 5 law firm after graduating in 2013. He made as good of money as you could make for any law student since his firm was on the cravath scale. His wife was a flight attendant. They bought a modest house 45 minutes away from Downtown Los Angeles in the outskirts of the city. He just went in house (paying good money but not cravath scale money) due to having two young kids at home. They just sold their house to help pay his student loans as it was getting too expensive to raise two young children with school costs and his massive student loans from a top 10 law school at nearly 7% interest. He is paying nearly 2750 a month to try and repay it back in ten years. And he’s in the minority of law school graduates that were able to secure Cravath scale salary.

We are talking about every single student that doesn’t have financial help from an outside source (vast majority) have this huge monthly debt burden. It is tough and it completely explains why high expense discretionary spending is dropping.

Student loans are a f*ck noose on the neck of anyone that has left graduate school since 2005 when the interest rate jumped and never came back down with the recession (kept going up). Then law school tuitions EXPLODED during the recession. https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/

It sucks dude. It sucks hard. You take out that 2000-2500 a month student loan payment and reduce it even in half and people are living significantly easier.

Just sit down with some of your 2rd-4th year associates and ask them to really detail out their cost of living to you. I think it’ll be shocking.
I will be the first to tell you, I am not as up to speed on the student debt issue, but I wonder the source for your numbers. If it is friends of yours that went to private schools and live in LA or comparable places, then I can see how the loans are overwhelming, but of course, someone made choices to be in that position (law school choice, city choice). US News publishes a listing of average student debt out of law school. The average from many of the state schools is under 100k, which does not translate to your 2-4k. UF is 88k average; Bama (now a top 25 law school) is 75k; Tx is 100k; GA is 82k. If a college grad wants to go to law school, and has no parental support or scholarships, i.e., funding 100% of law school, they need to make this business calculation. Yea I get that law schools brag about their placement rate and starting salaries, but where does personal responsibility and choice factor into this discussion? The debt comes with a repayment schedule.

But of course, I could be out of touch. I'm so country down here. But then again, just saw an associate pull in with a bmw.

I luv ya, bro, but your Cravath-like buddy is a not a great example. Just so readers are clear, Cravath pays its 2013 class 280k plus annual bonus, so breaking 300k. I don't think 99% of society will shed a tear for him. And you're example shows he has made lifestyle choices that have major financial implications. Top ten law school, so I assume private, very very expensive. A choice. He chose to live in LA, very expensive. He chose to keep his student loans on a 10 year cycle rather than extend to 20. He chose to leave the law firm and go inhouse. He chose to have 2 kids while grappling with this debt and choices. Maybe that sounds harsh, but these are all personal choices. Those personal choices are obviously to his satisifaction, or he would not do it, but I cannot be sad that he is not drinking the types of wine that another young LA lawyer buddy of mine drinks every night!
Robert, I think you and Charlie are missing each other's points on a couple important points. First, debt for all law schools is way up, even public ones. That debt is a massive millstone that previous generations simply didn't have. In addition going to a top 10 school is not actually a bad choice! Given the tiny size of summer associate classes these days the odds of getting a top firm job from a non top 14 school is low. The solution of be top 3% at FSU is really dangerous! It just takes getting a bad flu during one of the two weeks of finals to ensure you finish lower than that, at which point your chance of landing a position at a top firm are almost nil. And then see the pay scale I posted - your earnings drop precipitously. You could argue that you'll make it up eventually, but there is absolutely no guarantee of that.

I do agree with you (and Howard) however that there are also personal choices involved to a great degree, and I don't feel bad for junior associates. The Cravath scale pays well because it often takes Cravath level of pain. No pain no gain.

The point that I was making is confirmed by this discussion - we have created two paths in the legal field. One is very narrow (often debt laden) and leads to Cravath level salaries. The other is cheaper but is unlikely to lead to higher salaries. And as Charlie's post shows neither group can afford nice Bordeaux, so it's not much of a surprise they're drinking less of it. [stirthepothal.gif] neener
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#219 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 6:34 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 1:31 pm
The bigger thing is that where a millenial/younger person gets their recs from is less and less from singular sources like WA or WS. There are tons of blogs and IG accounts that weigh into buying decisions that were never there before.
I find this is very true, and also why many of the millenials I know drink a lot of natural wines/wines from less known regions which are often hyped by younger IG users. These wines are seen as "hip" and are typically a lot cheaper. Which given our discussion about cost makes a lot of sense.

I figured I'd contribute something meaningful to the conversation since I helped ruin the thread with all the law talk. [snort.gif]
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#220 Post by Markus S » February 4th, 2019, 6:44 am

$ _ € ® e . k @

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#221 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » February 4th, 2019, 6:50 am

If I am to judge by this thread, the only Millennials who can afford to buy good wine are lawyers (maybe) at well-paying law firms. I suppose one might include MDs once they are in residency and even beginning hedge fund investors, based on the salary discussion here. If that is the case, it's no wonder fewer Millennials buy good wine. All of them working in other fields couldn't begin to afford it.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#222 Post by Bob Davis » February 4th, 2019, 7:20 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 10:28 am
Wineries should look in the mirror to understand why millennials are not buying wine. Prices are too high. Tasting fees at many wineries are too high. I would hate to be starting to buy wines now. I might have never gotten started drinking wine.
After visiting Napa in October and can't disagree with anything here. As much as we enjoyed the visit the tasting fees were just insane. We kept the cost down by sharing tastings for the 2 of us.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#223 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 4th, 2019, 7:48 am

The author adds to his take: https://blog.wblakegray.com/2019/02/mil ... -wine.html

1. Millennials like healthy products
So what's the wine industry's response? To fight against ingredient labeling to the death.

2. Millennials find their parents' wine boring
So what's their answer? The same juice in a cooler package. Unfortunately this has been the wine industry's answer to essentially every new market group for years. Critter labels when millennials reached drinking age. Somebody woke up and realized women buy more wine than men and voila, Cabernet with girly labels.

3. Millennials want a personal experience
The wine industry knows this and is wringing its hands about it. A winery in Lake County can't easily offer a hopscotch tournament to its customers in Ohio. However, some companies have figured out how to make digital marketing seem closer-to-home, and more wineries could take advantage of what they've learned. Cameron Hughes stages events around the country, but also stays in personal contact with everyone on its mailing list....There's a reason Josh Cellars is the fastest-growing wine in America, and it isn't the juice. People think Josh is a real person. You can't compete with high-grade image creation; what you can do is actually be a real person.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#224 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 4th, 2019, 7:52 am

Our local paper just had an article on the 8 new craft breweries that have recently opened up in Central Florida, most of them downtown, adding up to a total of no less than 25 breweries in Central Florida. I have not been to a single one, but one of my cycling buddies just opened one this past week, so will be soon. Seems like a lot of new breweries, though. I have not seen any expansion in our wine retail market, but in the last five years, the major statewide retailer with a huge presence in Orlando (founded here decades ago), has dramatically cut back its Bordeaux offerings.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#225 Post by DanielP » February 4th, 2019, 8:02 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 6:50 am
If I am to judge by this thread, the only Millennials who can afford to buy good wine are lawyers (maybe) at well-paying law firms. I suppose one might include MDs once they are in residency and even beginning hedge fund investors, based on the salary discussion here. If that is the case, it's no wonder fewer Millennials buy good wine. All of them working in other fields couldn't begin to afford it.
I assure you, millennial medicine residents do not constitute a significant fine wine buying segment.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#226 Post by Charlie Carnes » February 4th, 2019, 8:08 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:48 am
The author adds to his take: https://blog.wblakegray.com/2019/02/mil ... -wine.html


3. Millennials want a personal experience Yes. This is what I was referring to in the magazine article about craft cocktail renaissance. They want the fancy cocktails, just made by a bartender, not a mixologois.


The wine industry knows this and is wringing its hands about it. A winery in Lake County can't easily offer a hopscotch tournament to its customers in Ohio. However, some companies have figured out how to make digital marketing seem closer-to-home, and more wineries could take advantage of what they've learned. Cameron Hughes stages events around the country, but also stays in personal contact with everyone on its mailing list....There's a reason Josh Cellars is the fastest-growing wine in America, and it isn't the juice. People think Josh is a real person. You can't compete with high-grade image creation; what you can do is actually be a real person.

RT
Freaking hilarius. I friend of a friend brought Josh over New Years. She kept refering to Josh in the first person, like he was at the party with her.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#227 Post by Keith A k e r s » February 4th, 2019, 9:29 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 6:24 am


Well said, this is kinda what I am talking about. Not so much AFWE, which I use only in erms of this discussion. The move seems-hopefully to me-to be going in the direction that there are great wines from everywhere, for every palate, not driven by a few periodicals or critics, but myriad sources... If that's millennials ruining wine, then good for them and us too.
I think that is happening. While there will be accounts and blogs that will shill wines left and right, the blogs and accounts that bring some sort of adventure or discovery to things can truly influence and open up minds. For myself, I've discovered a ton of champagne through IG and have been able to interact with some of the producers in ways that were never possible before. I think in places like Ribera Sacra that we've seen bigger recognition because of people travelling there and now having a place to be found if they put the info out there. I imagine this will keep happening and there will hopefully be some new and fun wines that will come even more into the public

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#228 Post by z_hart » February 4th, 2019, 9:30 am

I'm 37, just outside of the millennial group. As we've come to have a greater appreciation for wine, we have continuously spent more on wine each year from the previous years. Recently had a cellar built to start collecting and CT shows that I currently have 223 bottles that I've spent an average of $180/bottle, so our preference is definitely on collecting higher end wines. But, we still drink plenty of $20-$50 bottles of all kinds of wine. While I am a bit more 'into wine' than a lot of my friends, most of them do appreciate and regularly buy wines over $50/bottle (retail price, not restaurant price, which is obviously much more). Overall, most of our group is spending more on wine, but consuming WAY less crappy wines than we were 10 years ago, like the sub $15/bottle grocery store wines.

I have wondered if the craft beer craze was going to steal market share from wine.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#229 Post by Keith A k e r s » February 4th, 2019, 9:33 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:48 am


2. Millennials find their parents' wine boring
So what's their answer? The same juice in a cooler package. Unfortunately this has been the wine industry's answer to essentially every new market group for years. Critter labels when millennials reached drinking age. Somebody woke up and realized women buy more wine than men and voila, Cabernet with girly labels.

I don't think it will be as much labelling and whatnot as it is that people want to strike out on their own. Most of their parent will have been drinking bordeaux and california wines that are now much more expensive than a younger person would want to spend. But, that younger person may still want to drink wine from California, so in comes something like Sandlands or Jolie-Laide to name two producers off the top of my head. Someone may also want to drink Muscadet rather than a big, buttery Cali chard. It also helps that Muscadet is pretty tasty and a hell of a lot less expensive than even something like Ramey Chard.

While I'm sure critter wines may come back, I think this point is more in the realm of looking past what one's parents drank and wanting to be their own person.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#230 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 4th, 2019, 10:09 am

My guess is that expense (for quality) and personal connection are the 2 biggest obstacles. Howard had it right...from the start. As a struggling 20-something, I could shell out $30 (roughly equivalent to $70 today) and get some of the greatest wines in the world. Granted there was less choice, but $5 - $20 offered a universe of fine wine opportunities. DRC La Tache was approx. $200. Which seemed crazy then and would be an insane bargain now < $500.

I can't imagine how wine can compete with the allure of a close friend working the local bar or a local microbrew with the brewmaster and staff as personal friends and/or neighbors.

Fine wine still has cachet. It's a lot more complicated. I can't see it fitting in to the millennial culture the way it did for Boomers and Xers...unless they live/work in a wine producing region. And even then, price is still a big hurdle.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#231 Post by Howard Cooper » February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 9:58 am
at least in the South where we don't have any top-10 law schools (I think Duke, Emory and Vandy are the highest ranked) -

Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#232 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 4th, 2019, 10:54 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 9:58 am
at least in the South where we don't have any top-10 law schools (I think Duke, Emory and Vandy are the highest ranked) -

Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
Sheez, at that tuition rate, might as well turn private!

And yes, awesome school.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#233 Post by Michae1 P0wers » February 4th, 2019, 11:20 am

c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:08 pm
I’m not discussing salary discrepancies as Greg is very accurate. Just replying purely on what I quoted you on.

Dude. If you think 120k for two people with student loans is decent you don’t understand the strain many are under.

that couple right now is probably paying 3-4000 a month in student loan payments. They probably aren’t suffering, but they aren’t going out buying $50 bottles of wine for dinner. (Which is the whole crux of this) and aren’t amassing savings. They are probably living paycheck to paycheck, even in Florida with no state income tax.

I have friends in the early 30s making $140,000 a year, single, but can’t afford to buy a house in Los Angeles cause they are paying $2000 a month in student loans, $2000 a month in rent, a car payment, then utilities. They bank 10% to their 401k. Their take home is maybe 7k after state taxes, social security etc etc. 70% of their post tax paycheck goes just to those four things. That leaves them with maybe $2000 a month for everything else. So for food, clothing, misc costs, savings they have $2000 to spend.

My good friend worked four years at a Vault top 5 law firm after graduating in 2013. He made as good of money as you could make for any law student since his firm was on the cravath scale. His wife was a flight attendant. They bought a modest house 45 minutes away from Downtown Los Angeles in the outskirts of the city. He just went in house (paying good money but not cravath scale money) due to having two young kids at home. They just sold their house to help pay his student loans as it was getting too expensive to raise two young children with school costs and his massive student loans from a top 10 law school at nearly 7% interest. He is paying nearly 2750 a month to try and repay it back in ten years. And he’s in the minority of law school graduates that were able to secure Cravath scale salary.

We are talking about every single student that doesn’t have financial help from an outside source (vast majority) have this huge monthly debt burden. It is tough and it completely explains why high expense discretionary spending is dropping.

Student loans are a f*ck noose on the neck of anyone that has left graduate school since 2005 when the interest rate jumped and never came back down with the recession (kept going up). Then law school tuitions EXPLODED during the recession. https://data.lawschooltransparency.com/costs/tuition/

It sucks dude. It sucks hard. You take out that 2000-2500 a month student loan payment and reduce it even in half and people are living significantly easier.

Just sit down with some of your 2rd-4th year associates and ask them to really detail out their cost of living to you. I think it’ll be shocking.
Big yes to all of this. And a big yes to Jonathan's point that we're discussing one small group of relatively well-compensated individuals and that's an extremely myopic and non-representative way to view the intersection of wine and millennials. I can see this being bad for wine, and on a bigger level I see it being extremely, extremely bad for the economy as a whole. Paying tuition, student loans and interest has relatively little beneficial effect on the economy. These are the people that used to drive the economy, buying cars and houses and durable goods. Now they pay a couple of thousand dollars a month to a bank at 7% interest or so, drive older cars, live at home or with roommates, and generally don't dump money into the economy the way that they otherwise would. Those who say the tradeoff is higher salaries need to look at wage growth relative to inflation over the past thirty or forty years and you'll see that wages are stagnant, though of course less so for professionals, so that supposed tradeoff is illusory. It seems to me that there are a number of things for which the free market is an extremely poor way to achieve efficiency because the need to profit undermines the end goals, and education is one of those things.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#234 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 11:31 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:09 am
My guess is that expense (for quality) and personal connection are the 2 biggest obstacles. Howard had it right...from the start. As a struggling 20-something, I could shell out $30 (roughly equivalent to $70 today) and get some of the greatest wines in the world. Granted there was less choice, but $5 - $20 offered a universe of fine wine opportunities. DRC La Tache was approx. $200. Which seemed crazy then and would be an insane bargain now < $500.

I can't imagine how wine can compete with the allure of a close friend working the local bar or a local microbrew with the brewmaster and staff as personal friends and/or neighbors.

Fine wine still has cachet. It's a lot more complicated. I can't see it fitting in to the millennial culture the way it did for Boomers and Xers...unless they live/work in a wine producing region. And even then, price is still a big hurdle.

RT
One thing that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned is that millenials marry later, which tends to mean more meals eaten either alone or in restaurants with friends. I've found that whenever a girlfriend cooks* there will always be a bottle opened, while I rarely open bottles solo and going to with people rarely results in bottles ordered. Wine, to me, is almost always paired with food, and if millenials are living with their parents/roommates/alone, there is less incentive to open it.

*If I were to start cooking, our nuclear non-proliferation treaties might have to be amended to include the results as WMDs.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#235 Post by Keith A k e r s » February 4th, 2019, 11:49 am

Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:31 am

One thing that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned is that millenials marry later, which tends to mean more meals eaten either alone or in restaurants with friends. I've found that whenever a girlfriend cooks* there will always be a bottle opened, while I rarely open bottles solo and going to with people rarely results in bottles ordered. Wine, to me, is almost always paired with food, and if millenials are living with their parents/roommates/alone, there is less incentive to open it.

*If I were to start cooking, our nuclear non-proliferation treaties might have to be amended to include the results as WMDs.


The flip side to this being is that I've been a part and have done dinner parties with people that revolve around wine. Now, these don't happen as often as cracking into a bottle during the week, but I think something like that goes with the experiential part of things. A friend of mine has done spanish parties because she's been to spain a few times as have some of her friends. There is plenty of wine opened and it will generally fall between $8-35. She is likely to open wine at random times, but I think most of her friends fall within what you are talking about where people may not open a bottle to their head.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#236 Post by Mark Golodetz » February 4th, 2019, 11:56 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 9:58 am
at least in the South where we don't have any top-10 law schools (I think Duke, Emory and Vandy are the highest ranked) -

Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
And Duke hovers around top ten, and last year was in it. Actually I was under the impression that top law firms began with the top 14 schools.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#237 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 12:20 pm

Keith A k e r s wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:49 am
Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:31 am

One thing that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned is that millenials marry later, which tends to mean more meals eaten either alone or in restaurants with friends. I've found that whenever a girlfriend cooks* there will always be a bottle opened, while I rarely open bottles solo and going to with people rarely results in bottles ordered. Wine, to me, is almost always paired with food, and if millenials are living with their parents/roommates/alone, there is less incentive to open it.

*If I were to start cooking, our nuclear non-proliferation treaties might have to be amended to include the results as WMDs.


The flip side to this being is that I've been a part and have done dinner parties with people that revolve around wine. Now, these don't happen as often as cracking into a bottle during the week, but I think something like that goes with the experiential part of things. A friend of mine has done spanish parties because she's been to spain a few times as have some of her friends. There is plenty of wine opened and it will generally fall between $8-35. She is likely to open wine at random times, but I think most of her friends fall within what you are talking about where people may not open a bottle to their head.
I also do wine/dinner parties, but I can't imagine boomers didn't when they were young!
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#238 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 9:58 am
at least in the South where we don't have any top-10 law schools (I think Duke, Emory and Vandy are the highest ranked) -

Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
And Duke hovers around top ten, and last year was in it. Actually I was under the impression that top law firms began with the top 14 schools.
Yes, the usual view is that it's top 14 and then everything else. Of course, that's what those that went to a top 14 school would say. [tease.gif]
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#239 Post by c fu » February 4th, 2019, 12:27 pm

Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am



Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
And Duke hovers around top ten, and last year was in it. Actually I was under the impression that top law firms began with the top 14 schools.
Yes, the usual view is that it's top 14 and then everything else. Of course, that's what those that went to a top 14 school would say. [tease.gif]
I think Georgetown alums argue that it's now top 15 - something UCLA alums have been arguing for a decade. [snort.gif]
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#240 Post by Greg K » February 4th, 2019, 12:34 pm

c fu wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:56 am


And Duke hovers around top ten, and last year was in it. Actually I was under the impression that top law firms began with the top 14 schools.
Yes, the usual view is that it's top 14 and then everything else. Of course, that's what those that went to a top 14 school would say. [tease.gif]
I think Georgetown alums argue that it's now top 15 - something UCLA alums have been arguing for a decade. [snort.gif]
On the east coast the view is firmly that it's Georgetown as the cut-off. UCLA just isn't seen as a national school on the east coast. It's the George Washington people you've got to watch out for.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#241 Post by Marc Hauser » February 4th, 2019, 12:53 pm

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 7:48 am
The author adds to his take: https://blog.wblakegray.com/2019/02/mil ... -wine.html

1. Millennials like healthy products
So what's the wine industry's response? To fight against ingredient labeling to the death.

2. Millennials find their parents' wine boring
So what's their answer? The same juice in a cooler package. Unfortunately this has been the wine industry's answer to essentially every new market group for years. Critter labels when millennials reached drinking age. Somebody woke up and realized women buy more wine than men and voila, Cabernet with girly labels.

3. Millennials want a personal experience
The wine industry knows this and is wringing its hands about it. A winery in Lake County can't easily offer a hopscotch tournament to its customers in Ohio. However, some companies have figured out how to make digital marketing seem closer-to-home, and more wineries could take advantage of what they've learned. Cameron Hughes stages events around the country, but also stays in personal contact with everyone on its mailing list....There's a reason Josh Cellars is the fastest-growing wine in America, and it isn't the juice. People think Josh is a real person. You can't compete with high-grade image creation; what you can do is actually be a real person.

RT
#3 is why Nakedwines.com, with its personal connection to the individual (and real) winemaker, is so darn successful.

It's also why Scribe and others who are focused on tasting room experience are so successful, and why so many are scrambling to build out the DTC "experience". The problem with the latter, which is now starting to come to light, is that not every visitor to wine country wants to spend 3 hours and $150 at a tasting with cheese, and those who do can really only do so once or twice a day.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#242 Post by Mark Golodetz » February 4th, 2019, 1:16 pm

Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:21 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:32 am



Robert,

I think you are missing one - the one law school in the south that is and always has been in the top 10. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... w-rankings Of course, when I went to UVa, tuition (even out of state) was under $3,000 a year. champagne.gif
And Duke hovers around top ten, and last year was in it. Actually I was under the impression that top law firms began with the top 14 schools.
Yes, the usual view is that it's top 14 and then everything else. Of course, that's what those that went to a top 14 school would say. [tease.gif]
And the parents who help pay for them rolleyes
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Robert.A.Jr.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#243 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 4th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:34 pm
c fu wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Greg K wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 12:21 pm


Yes, the usual view is that it's top 14 and then everything else. Of course, that's what those that went to a top 14 school would say. [tease.gif]
I think Georgetown alums argue that it's now top 15 - something UCLA alums have been arguing for a decade. [snort.gif]
On the east coast the view is firmly that it's Georgetown as the cut-off. UCLA just isn't seen as a national school on the east coast. It's the George Washington people you've got to watch out for.

The Ms would say these schools are impossible to get into these days, only the rich and famous, while in our generation, they were EZ PZ and cheap. ;)

Incidentally, I got wait-listed at GW. Got into UCLA architecture for masters, but oddly, not law - I applied for the joint MA/JD degree. As far as I knew, it was the only joint program of its kind in the US. Clearly they discriminated against us out-of-staters!

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#244 Post by Jay Miller » February 4th, 2019, 2:07 pm

It's only fair that milllenials should ruin wine, I seem to recall articles claiming the same for each of the previous generations as well. They deserve their chance.

Meanwhile, put paid to any notion that baby boomers were monolithically lucky in their birth time. As a late boomer who graduated into the 80s recession, was downsized in the 90s recession, went back to school and didn't earn over 40K until my 40s I feel no particular good fortune came my way as a result of my birth year.

But from this thread it seems we're only considering millenials who go to law school so I guess that isn't especially relevant. Maybe it's really lawyers who are ruining wine after all.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#245 Post by Josh Grossman » February 4th, 2019, 2:23 pm

I'm 36, so a Millennial on the upper end (although we prefer to call ourselves The Oregon Trail Generation). I think the article really misses it. The biggest issue is Mark is right:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149984

I'd say the amount of Millennials that have tried something that was a transcendental wine in Ohio is almost statistically zero. That said, there are great micro brews, mezcal, and bourbon all over. We go to the supermarket and can pick up a great bourbon and microbrew. We go to the wine aisle, and at least in Ohio, it's almost all mass marketed shit. Ohio doesn't really have any world class wine retail and certainly not at any tastings. The most popular wine tasting event for my friends--is a taste 10 wines for $10. Out of those friends who are exploring wine--I'd say this Vox garbage about expensive wine probably rings true to them:


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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#246 Post by Richard T r i m p i » February 4th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 2:07 pm
Maybe it's really lawyers who are ruining wine after all.
Bingo.

RT

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#247 Post by jgreco » February 4th, 2019, 8:17 pm

6 months of down sales after decades of tremendous growth means millennials aren't buying wine? That feels like some shoddy analysis to me. Only about a 1/3 of millennials are 10+ years into a career. They are just now getting married or having their first kid. They'll buy expensive wine - a lot more disposable income is on the way.

This thread has a lot of sour grapes about not being able to drink $60 first growths or $200 DRC which entirely human, but also unfortunate. There is so much good wine out there today due to modern viticultural and wine making techniques. And more information than ever to find it.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#248 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » February 5th, 2019, 12:29 pm

If no one under 40 drinks fine wines then why have fine wine prices gone through the roof the last few years? Wealthy speculators hoarding for their cellars and playing the market? (Yes I know it's a longer trend than the last few years but just in recent years like 2016-2019 in particular there has been real sharp growth).

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#249 Post by CWun » February 5th, 2019, 4:08 pm

I'm an "elder" millennial (Oregon Trail !) in Silicon Valley in Software Engineering and anecdotally my peers and the younger ones don't really care about super-high end fine wine, nor any of the classic marks of wealth. They rather drink beer, and pay for unique "experiences". These kids generally have the money to spend too.

Maybe 10 in 100 will be on mailing lists, and those mailing lists will be the popular names such Phelps and the like. Maybe 1 in 500 will geek out over cabs and burgundy.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#250 Post by Eric Lundblad » February 5th, 2019, 5:23 pm

c fu wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:11 pm
Also I'm probably one page away from moving this to asylum. LOL
I've occasionally thought about posting on this thread, but didn't seem worth it while it's being swamped by law/etc talk. It be great if it were possible to split this into a wine thread (left here) and an everything else thread (in asylum)...the millennial wine discussion part is still plausible. Probably a bunch of work to split it tho.
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