"Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

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Bryan Carr
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#101 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm

Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:18 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 6:22 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 5:58 pm

The Boomers [and the Silents] have no idea how horrible the economic prospects are for the Millennials.

The average Boomer doesn't even understand the debacle of the Student Loan Debt nightmare [much less what happens to housing prices when you're falling off the trailing edge of a temporally isolated demographic wavelet].

No generation in the entire history of Western Civilization was told more lies than were the Millennials.

And none [or at least far too few] of the Boomers [or the Silents] were paying enough attention to the unfolding tragedy of the Millennials to even have known that they ought to have been speaking out about the lies - assuming that Boomers or Silents would have had the character necessary to try to defy the ubiquitous flood of lies - but if they had had that sort of character, then they wouldn't have been ignoring the plight of the millennials in the first place.

Of course, the big problem for the Millennials now is how many of them swallowed the lies, hook line & sinker.

Because no one stepped forward to warn them that none of it was true.
This could potentially be the most pathetic drivel that I have ever read on this site, and that’s saying a lot.
+1. Many voices have been raised over the past 15 years. All they needed to do was listen to people who were giving good solid advice which of course means a harder road versus listening to those softer whispers of the easy path to success, fame and wealth.
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years to almost a million dollars coupled with a 40 year trend of wage suppression? Isn’t going to an affordable college, studying something marketable, working hard, and living within your means “the harder road” you’re talking about?

The world today is just a fundamentally different, harder place than it was even 20 years ago. Class mobility is at an all time low.
Last edited by Bryan Carr on February 1st, 2019, 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#102 Post by matt d » February 1st, 2019, 12:36 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm
Just to note - the University of Illinois is under $13,000 for a year. Many kids - including myself back in the day - have never been able to afford the expensive private schools. I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it's not a new development. I do think what is new is the image of what is "normal" life that's been pushed by marketing and media that assumes every family has a big house with multiple baths, granite counters, blah blah blah and several cars and a pretty expensive lifestyle overall. That's not reality for most folks but I think everyone assumes that all just comes automatically - it doesn't. I mean I have friends who are in the millennial generation who live in CA, own a house, have two good cars, a kid and who chose to work in fields that are not the most high-paying. Seeing them fuss at my generation as if we somehow took the good life away from them is a little hard ... and their assumption my generation all have juicy retirement funds and the rest ... ugh.

I do find the millennials I work with tend to grab a beer as the first option when we have work happy hour ... the wine served is pretty dreadful and the beers are pretty good. I have my wine shipped to the office so I keep a stash and often open a bottle instead and better wine is really appreciated by them - and enjoyed. I just think they are not exposed to it often enough to chose it over a cheap beer. They do like cocktails when we go out ... and at least here in Chicago, a lot of millennials are quite up on the restaurant scene eating at 1 and 2 star spots as well as at the great "ethnic" spots we have.
Just a note for the UI website for instate students they say $31,390-$36,394. The big problem is the introduction of wine. I was only introduced to good stuff because dad is in a tasting group who let me in. It hard to try get the magic of wine if you can't taste some of those good to great wine. It hard to just throw down 30+ on a bottle that may or may not be good
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#103 Post by c fu » February 1st, 2019, 12:44 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm
Just to note - the University of Illinois is under $13,000 for a year. Many kids - including myself back in the day - have never been able to afford the expensive private schools. I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it's not a new development.
16-21k in tuition and fees. This does not cover dorm, food, books which pushes it way past 30k.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#104 Post by Siun o'Connell » February 1st, 2019, 12:47 pm

That figure includes $11,000 room, board and $900 for health insurance. Just to be clear.

Going to college fully paid with no financial aid and no need for a part time job, etc is ... a nice spot to be in. Lots of us never were there.

Tuition:

https://registrar.illinois.edu/tuition- ... ates-1819/

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#105 Post by JordanL » February 1st, 2019, 12:54 pm

College is one of those things... Getting to a good expensive school if you can get into one is something you absolutely should take and is worth taking loans out for if you get it. I went to a very good public school (UC Davis baby) and went to an Ivy League for my masters. The career paths of a typical UC Davis student to the typical person coming out an Ivy League is just very very different, and I guess the savings from 4 years of college outweigh your lifetime potential earnings. Of course, there are always exceptions but just in general, there's a huge difference. College is just as much an experience as it is an education, and the friends, memories, and network you make freshman year and sophomore year are arguably worth that difference of going to community college.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#106 Post by Rob M » February 1st, 2019, 1:01 pm

College is like many other things - I'd say the extremes of candidates / colleges are in a good spot in 2019, but the middle is where things have gotten squeezed.

If your family is between middle class and low income and you are smart enough / work hard enough to get into a top school, you probably will pay close to $0 and you have the opportunity for incredible social mobility. I think for this category of individual, 2019 is the best time to be going to college - tons of financial aid opportunities at the top schools, and top schools are much more meritocratic than they once were.

If your family is very wealthy, then you are likely to both have the background to get into a good school + your parents will have the means to easily pay the full price.

If you are a middle-achieving student and your family is middle class, then you will have a tough time. You'll get into relatively mediocre schools and still end up paying $30K+/yr all in to attend. And your job opportunities will likely be mediocre as well, making it difficult to pay off the debt you probably took out.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#107 Post by Matthew King » February 1st, 2019, 1:07 pm

Jim Anderson wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:10 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:09 pm
Jim Anderson wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:07 pm
I forwarded this to one of the many millennials that works for me. He is the most classic millennial of the bunch. This was his response:

"As a fellow Avocado Toast connoisseur, ...
Poor guy, he'll never be able to buy a house.
He has a house. And a baby on the way.
Poor guy. [wink.gif] [snort.gif]

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#108 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years to almost a million dollars coupled with a 40 year trend of wage suppression? Isn’t going to an affordable college, studying something marketable, working hard, and living within your means “the harder road” you’re talking about?

The world today is just a fundamentally different, harder place than it was even 20 years ago. Class mobility is at an all time low.
Joe and I are opposite ends of of the political spectrum - him right, me left - but I suspect Joe will ask you the same question that I will:

Why Seattle?

Sure, killer town. Many other towns have not experienced that sort of inflation. My town, Orlando, has seen some increases over the 5 year cycle, but average home prices are still down from 2008 prices, just 10 years ago. Orlando has a strong economy, a youthful professional community, is great for starting families, no state income taxes, etc. Hard to feel bad here - or buy into this concept of the world being so fundamentally different and harder for you, when perhaps you have made a lifestyle choice that just happens to cost more. I have lived in Miami, Atlanta and San Fran, post-law school had offers in SF, NYC, Chicago and some others, but specifically chose Orlando for growth opportunity and cost of living. While sure, San Fran would have been super cool those budding years, so was Miami, but it was obvious that long-term would be a problem with cost of living. And traffic.

My advice would have been, pick a more affordable city. Of course, I say that in a vacuum, without know why you chose that city over any other. I get that there may be ties that wedded you there. But if not, then you simply chose a super expensive city.

I cannot speak to a "40-year trend of wage suppression" as I have no idea what you do. Not all fields and careers have been down or stagnant. Many have been up, some up in a big way.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#109 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 1st, 2019, 1:17 pm

Rob M wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:01 pm

If you are a middle-achieving student and your family is middle class, then you will have a tough time. You'll get into relatively mediocre schools and still end up paying $30K+/yr all in to attend. And your job opportunities will likely be mediocre as well, making it difficult to pay off the debt you probably took out.
No doubt the middle-class gets the squeeze on college expenses, but I wonder the rest of what you say. Perhaps it depends on your geographic region, but not all regions recruit only from Ivy or top-tier state schools. Having lived and worked in some southern states - Florida and Georgia - and the state school grads have way better than mediocre opportunites. Heck, half of my associates are from FSU and UF, neither of which are top 25 law schools. At least in law, while school quality does indeed matter, your class ranking can make a huge difference. A top 5%-10% grad at FSU, a 47th ranked law school, will get a killer, high-paying job. That kid also likely qualified for Florida bright futures scholarships paid for by the lottery, giving him/her free tuition. Not saying its easier coming from the middle, but I do not agree with the mediocrity comment. Mediocrity is what you make of any opportunity. Winners will win regardless.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#110 Post by Jim F » February 1st, 2019, 1:23 pm

I agree with Alfert. I think there are opportunities at the very prestigious schools to have doors opened. But that does not in any way mean that a motivated, with-it individual will have to settle for mediocrity. I work in science, my company recruits nationally (actually, internationally) and we look for talent. Then, it is performance. There are all kinds of opportunities. Assuming science is not viewed as a loser career in the first place.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#111 Post by Greg K » February 1st, 2019, 1:41 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:17 pm
A top 5%-10% grad at FSU, a 47th ranked law school, will get a killer, high-paying job.
Of course, it's really your first year grades and that's a total of 8 tests. That's a good amount of luck/variation, which matters a lot less at a top school. It's an interesting debate.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#112 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 1:45 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years to almost a million dollars coupled with a 40 year trend of wage suppression? Isn’t going to an affordable college, studying something marketable, working hard, and living within your means “the harder road” you’re talking about?

The world today is just a fundamentally different, harder place than it was even 20 years ago. Class mobility is at an all time low.
Joe and I are opposite ends of of the political spectrum - him right, me left - but I suspect Joe will ask you the same question that I will:

Why Seattle?

Sure, killer town. Many other towns have not experienced that sort of inflation. My town, Orlando, has seen some increases over the 5 year cycle, but average home prices are still down from 2008 prices, just 10 years ago. Orlando has a strong economy, a youthful professional community, is great for starting families, no state income taxes, etc. Hard to feel bad here - or buy into this concept of the world being so fundamentally different and harder for you, when perhaps you have made a lifestyle choice that just happens to cost more. I have lived in Miami, Atlanta and San Fran, post-law school had offers in SF, NYC, Chicago and some others, but specifically chose Orlando for growth opportunity and cost of living. While sure, San Fran would have been super cool those budding years, so was Miami, but it was obvious that long-term would be a problem with cost of living. And traffic.

My advice would have been, pick a more affordable city. Of course, I say that in a vacuum, without know why you chose that city over any other. I get that there may be ties that wedded you there. But if not, then you simply chose a super expensive city.

I cannot speak to a "40-year trend of wage suppression" as I have no idea what you do. Not all fields and careers have been down or stagnant. Many have been up, some up in a big way.
We "picked" Seattle for a host of personal/family reasons (on top of professional) that I won't get into but do keep us here for the near term, in addition to the fact that this is where our professional networks are. We've kicked around the idea of bailing for a long time and we might at some point if current family-related anchors dissipate. I understand that if we moved to Omaha or Cincinnati or something we'd probably have an easier time of it but the idea of having to move cross-country away from all my friends, family, and professional network just to afford a starter house is absolutely a recent phenomenon, at least in the postwar era, even including many of the most expensive cities. I've lived in the PNW my whole adult life and have very deep roots here, and the fact that a married couple who are a real estate developer with a masters degree and someone in investment finance can't afford a 1000 sq ft junker without a loan from the parents isn't normal in this country, historically speaking, unless you're talking Manhattan.

I mean, I'm certain you're right that if I moved to Orlando I could probably afford a house no problem, but that's not a tradeoff i'm willing to make, and 15 years ago i would never have had to make.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#113 Post by Matthew.Rashbrook » February 1st, 2019, 1:54 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years
pick a more affordable city.
Did you miss the, "in the past 5 years?" He did pick a more affordable city!

(Putting aside, for the moment, that by suggesting he/whoever move you're acknowledging he's right about the underlying problem.)

Remember that old one about, "... if neither is with you, pound on the table!"?

The anecdotal 'support'? ("My associates are doing great," "I see state school kids making it," etc., etc.) That's you pounding on the table.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#114 Post by Jim Stewart » February 1st, 2019, 1:56 pm

A bit surprising how much discussion can be ignited by this heading and the linked article. The "article" actually seems more like a conversation over lunch with an marketing focused "banker" who in knee deep in his own B.S. :
"We have to figure out how to engage this young consumer without money," McMillan said. "You look at the models that are working right now, and it's all experience-based. You can go to a bar that's got ax-throwing or billiards or any activities you want. And for cocktails, you have mixologists. They make drinks with flair. It's entertaining. Wine doesn't have anything like that."
How can anyone read that and not laugh out loud! I admit to being an "old fart" (and that's what's going to happen to you if you get to hang around long enough), but this strikes me as laughable nonsense. Maybe its just me . . . I know some on this forum (many?) are ITB and even winemakers, and maybe this resonates with them. But I do see a lot of reassuring wisdom popping up in the comments on this thread from all generations. Hang in there one and all.


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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#115 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 1:57 pm

When I moved to Seattle, it was affordable, but my wife was in grad school so we we didn't have any way to save a down payment so there's that, too. To take it away from the "i will miss my friends" sentiment, the opportunity for fulfilling work in our fields is not equal in all cities either, unfortunately. That was the only reason we left Portland, which we loved, so we've made the mercenary economic move once before and it's not an experience I'm that eager to repeat, emotionally.

To bring it back to wine, though, I do think my peers are getting into wine, just in a different way. Natural wine jibes with a lot of their sensibilities, and its usually considerably more affordable than traditionally-defined "fine wine", so that seems like where a lot of their wine $$ are going. We kind of came up through the traditional route so thats sort of how our palates are calibrated, but if you didn't start there it's hard to think you're "missing out" by not being able to afford Palmer or whatever.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#116 Post by Mike V e r h i l l e » February 1st, 2019, 2:00 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm
Just to note - the University of Illinois is under $13,000 for a year. Many kids - including myself back in the day - have never been able to afford the expensive private schools. I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it's not a new development. I do think what is new is the image of what is "normal" life that's been pushed by marketing and media that assumes every family has a big house with multiple baths, granite counters, blah blah blah and several cars and a pretty expensive lifestyle overall. That's not reality for most folks but I think everyone assumes that all just comes automatically - it doesn't. I mean I have friends who are in the millennial generation who live in CA, own a house, have two good cars, a kid and who chose to work in fields that are not the most high-paying. Seeing them fuss at my generation as if we somehow took the good life away from them is a little hard ... and their assumption my generation all have juicy retirement funds and the rest ... ugh.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#117 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 1st, 2019, 2:01 pm

Matthew.Rashbrook wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:54 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years
pick a more affordable city.
Did you miss the, "in the past 5 years?" He did pick a more affordable city!

(Putting aside, for the moment, that by suggesting he/whoever move you're acknowledging he's right about the underlying problem.)

Remember that old one about, "... if neither is with you, pound on the table!"?

The anecdotal 'support'? ("My associates are doing great," "I see state school kids making it," etc., etc.) That's you pounding on the table.
Examples and counter-points are not pounding on the table, they are just that, examples and counter-points. Discussion.

Like many things in life, the answer is more in the middle, not the extremes we are hearing.

Occam's Razor, sort of.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#118 Post by EricE » February 1st, 2019, 2:18 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:57 pm
When I moved to Seattle, it was affordable, but my wife was in grad school so we we didn't have any way to save a down payment so there's that, too. To take it away from the "i will miss my friends" sentiment, the opportunity for fulfilling work in our fields is not equal in all cities either, unfortunately. That was the only reason we left Portland, which we loved, so we've made the mercenary economic move once before and it's not an experience I'm that eager to repeat, emotionally.

To bring it back to wine, though, I do think my peers are getting into wine, just in a different way. Natural wine jibes with a lot of their sensibilities, and its usually considerably more affordable than traditionally-defined "fine wine", so that seems like where a lot of their wine $$ are going. We kind of came up through the traditional route so thats sort of how our palates are calibrated, but if you didn't start there it's hard to think you're "missing out" by not being able to afford Palmer or whatever.
I'll jump in here as a 29 yo who moved to Seattle 2.5 years ago.

Seattle has plenty of affordable housing if you chose not to live in the hip areas, i.e go north or south of the city. Why not live in a less desirable or up and coming area for a few years, fix up the house in the process and then cash in? It's not sexy, you do need to make some sacrifices, it will require hard work but dam it's rewarding.

Back on track, all of my friends are completely clueless when it comes to wine but do appreciate good wine along with good food. Most would never even fathom spending more than $30 on a bottle, not because they are cheap but more so because they have had there fair share of experiences of drinking really bad wine at that price point. To me that's the problem. Unless your pretty savvy or spend some time on forums such as this you have a high probability of buying some pretty terrible stuff.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#119 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 2:26 pm

Like moving to Orlando, moving out of the city center isn’t a neutral money-only decision. Traffic is terrible in Seattle, and everything I do in my life is in the core of the city. Adding an extra 2 hours to my daily commute plus having to drive everywhere isn’t really tenable and is also a recent phenomenon. Even houses in South Park and White Center aren’t affordable anymore, though if I’m being honest the prices have slowed in the last couple months.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#120 Post by Nathan Smyth » February 1st, 2019, 2:35 pm

Jesus Christ, it's scary - bordering on terrifying - the extent to which Boomers & Silents are utterly detached from reality.

As though it's still 1961 & JFK is still president & Cal-Berkeley is still a free ride & Charles Krug still costs $1.49 a bottle.

At least Millennials know that they're nuts.

But Boomers & Silents are just too damned arrogant for that thought to ever cross their minds.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#121 Post by EricE » February 1st, 2019, 2:36 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:26 pm
Like moving to Orlando, moving out of the city center isn’t a neutral money-only decision. Traffic is terrible in Seattle, and everything I do in my life is in the core of the city. Adding an extra 2 hours to my daily commute plus having to drive everywhere isn’t really tenable and is also a recent phenomenon. Even houses in South Park and White Center aren’t affordable anymore, though if I’m being honest the prices have slowed in the last couple months.
I ride the light rail from the raineer valley every day. Commute to DT is less than 35 min guaranteed everyday. Same can be said for the North Side in a few years
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#122 Post by Joe B » February 1st, 2019, 2:53 pm

c fu wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:44 pm
Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm
Just to note - the University of Illinois is under $13,000 for a year. Many kids - including myself back in the day - have never been able to afford the expensive private schools. I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it's not a new development.
16-21k in tuition and fees. This does not cover dorm, food, books which pushes it way past 30k.
That is where I graduated from in 1997. I had a full time job in summer and part time job the rest of the year. I could have gone to IIT for $35k a year for the same degree. For some reason I chose UIC and paid off all my loans within a couple of years. We paid my wife’s off as well, also UIC graduate in 1998, in the same timeframe. Rented for a couple years. Saved. Bought a small 1200 sq. Ft. Condo. Saved. Moved to a 2100 sq.ft house. Saved. Still saving now for kids college.
Last edited by Joe B on February 1st, 2019, 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#123 Post by Joe B » February 1st, 2019, 2:56 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:08 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:34 pm
What kind of advice could have been followed to defray the fact that the median home price in Seattle has doubled in the past 5 years to almost a million dollars coupled with a 40 year trend of wage suppression? Isn’t going to an affordable college, studying something marketable, working hard, and living within your means “the harder road” you’re talking about?

The world today is just a fundamentally different, harder place than it was even 20 years ago. Class mobility is at an all time low.
Joe and I are opposite ends of of the political spectrum - him right, me left - but I suspect Joe will ask you the same question that I will:

Why Seattle?
Boom!

Nobody is forced to stay in any one place. This is a big country. You can go cut your teeth somewhere other than Seattle for a few years and gain experience and higher wages, move back at a latter date. Or try renting smaller places on the outskirts and commute into the city. Too many options available.

My dad told me that when he became an actuary in the early 1960’s he and my mom moved to New York. He worked in Manhattan. But he was just starting out and could not afford Manhattan. What he could afford was to rent a place that required him to make a two and a half hour trip into the office and another two and a half hour trip back home. He took that five years of experience and found a job in Chicago where he only had to travel abou 30 minutes to and from work from a house he bought for like $17k
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#124 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 3:05 pm

EricE wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:36 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:26 pm
Like moving to Orlando, moving out of the city center isn’t a neutral money-only decision. Traffic is terrible in Seattle, and everything I do in my life is in the core of the city. Adding an extra 2 hours to my daily commute plus having to drive everywhere isn’t really tenable and is also a recent phenomenon. Even houses in South Park and White Center aren’t affordable anymore, though if I’m being honest the prices have slowed in the last couple months.
I ride the light rail from the raineer valley every day. Commute to DT is less than 35 min guaranteed everyday. Same can be said for the North Side in a few years
I would move to the Rainier Valley in a heartbeat, but houses are still $650k there so until i can save $125k down I'm going to be renting and saving 25% of my income every month like I said and praying the housing market doesn't get further out of reach while I save. I don't consider Rainier Valley "out of town" at all, I'm not trying to buy in Capitol Hill or Queen Anne, i'm not crazy. When I say the "city core" I'm talking basically between South Park and Ravenna.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#125 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 3:13 pm

Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:56 pm

Boom!

Nobody is forced to stay in any one place. This is a big country. You can go cut your teeth somewhere other than Seattle for a few years and gain experience and higher wages, move back at a latter date. Or try renting smaller places on the outskirts and commute into the city. Too many options available.

My dad told me that when he became an actuary in the early 1960’s he and my mom moved to New York. He worked in Manhattan. But he was just starting out and could not afford Manhattan. What he could afford was to rent a place that required him to make a two and a half hour trip into the office and another two and a half hour trip back home. He took that five years of experience and found a job in Chicago where he only had to travel abou 30 minutes to and from work from a house he bought for like $17k
The problem is Boomers keep telling themselves stories like this as if everything is exactly the same. $17k in the mid 60s is the equivalent of $115k today and there isn't a house within 30 minues of Chicago for even double that that isn't in the highest gun-crime zip code in the country or falling off its foundation (although after some research, chicago is comparatively cheap for a major city these days, maybe i should move there).
I've explained why Seattle above.

Honestly we kicked around the idea of moving to Pittsburgh a couple years back because it was so cheap but family and job stuff put the kibosh on it.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#126 Post by Joe B » February 1st, 2019, 3:31 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:13 pm
Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:56 pm

Boom!

Nobody is forced to stay in any one place. This is a big country. You can go cut your teeth somewhere other than Seattle for a few years and gain experience and higher wages, move back at a latter date. Or try renting smaller places on the outskirts and commute into the city. Too many options available.

My dad told me that when he became an actuary in the early 1960’s he and my mom moved to New York. He worked in Manhattan. But he was just starting out and could not afford Manhattan. What he could afford was to rent a place that required him to make a two and a half hour trip into the office and another two and a half hour trip back home. He took that five years of experience and found a job in Chicago where he only had to travel abou 30 minutes to and from work from a house he bought for like $17k
The problem is Boomers keep telling themselves stories like this as if everything is exactly the same. $17k in the mid 60s is the equivalent of $115k today and there isn't a house within 30 minues of Chicago for even double that that isn't in the highest gun-crime zip code in the country or falling off its foundation (although after some research, chicago is comparatively cheap for a major city these days).
I've explained why Seattle above.
I’m not a boomer. I’m generation X I think. 50 years old. Again I graduated in 1997 with a degree in architecture. My first job paid $24k a year. That ain’t a killing by any stretch of the imagination in 1997. My condo cost $130,000 in 1999. I was making $36k by then. Me and my wife could have afforded about $200,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. We paid off our loans instead and owned used cars. Once the loans were gone we bought a house in 2004 for $330,000. We put down about 25% between the sale of our condo and savings. We could have afforded a $500,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. Our extra money was going into retirement funds and kids college funds. I have not lived a glamorous lifestyle but I will be able to retire by age 58 if I want to. I’ll probably wait til 62 though. That is when my kids should be done with college.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#127 Post by James Billy » February 1st, 2019, 3:34 pm

Well millennials are sleeping with more attractive partners than boomers. That's got to be better than drinking expensive wine!

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#128 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 3:40 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:34 pm
Well millennials are sleeping with more attractive partners than boomers. That's got to be better than drinking expensive wine!
Give it time, everything evens out in the end when it comes to our faces/bodies, I'm not gonna be a Tom of Finland drawing forever!
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#129 Post by Joe B » February 1st, 2019, 3:44 pm

James Billy wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:34 pm
Well millennials are sleeping with more attractive partners than boomers. That's got to be better than drinking expensive wine!
Damn, I forgot this is about wine drinking. So to get back to my story above. It wasn't until I reached 42-44 years of age that I finally could afford good wine. It takes time to get the things we need so that we can start to get the things we want. I did not want to drink $15 napa cabs. I had had to drink them at parties, weddings, family occasions and they sucked. But one day I was given some Napa cab, can not remember what it was but it was good. Figured it out. You have to pay real money to drink good wine. And today I can and do drink good wine. Millenialls and most people out there, boomers, Gen X, Silents etc, whoever,. can not just jump into $100 bottles of wine. They will have to wait until they get their house in order. Unless you hit it big right off the school launching pad.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#130 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 3:49 pm

Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:31 pm

I’m not a boomer. I’m generation X I think. 50 years old. Again I graduated in 1997 with a degree in architecture. My first job paid $24k a year. That ain’t a killing by any stretch of the imagination in 1997. My condo cost $130,000 in 1999. I was making $36k by then. Me and my wife could have afforded about $200,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. We paid off our loans instead and owned used cars. Once the loans were gone we bought a house in 2004 for $330,000. We put down about 25% between the sale of our condo and savings. We could have afforded a $500,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. Our extra money was going into retirement funds and kids college funds. I have not lived a glamorous lifestyle but I will be able to retire by age 58 if I want to. I’ll probably wait til 62 though. That is when my kids should be done with college.
Not trying to nitpick, but the math in this example is still not the same math we're facing these days. A 20% down payment on your first condo would have been 72% of your annual individual salary, or the max you could afford would be a down payment of around 100% of your salary. A 20% down payment for a starter home for me is in the neighborhood of 150% of my annual individual salary, so on a relative basis more than double. I think that's what folks are getting at here. Saving up $125k when you're also paying $1k/mo in student loans and trying to save for retirement takes a long time and a lot of discipline. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just different and folks like to imply that it's not. It is. Just trying to shed a little light on what my theory is as to why my generation isn't out there t-shirt-cannoning their bank accounts at wine, which isn't the "preferences" narrative.
Luckily we've made some friends and acquaintances through WB that are happy to share their nice stuff with us!
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#131 Post by Joe B » February 1st, 2019, 4:22 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:49 pm
Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:31 pm

I’m not a boomer. I’m generation X I think. 50 years old. Again I graduated in 1997 with a degree in architecture. My first job paid $24k a year. That ain’t a killing by any stretch of the imagination in 1997. My condo cost $130,000 in 1999. I was making $36k by then. Me and my wife could have afforded about $200,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. We paid off our loans instead and owned used cars. Once the loans were gone we bought a house in 2004 for $330,000. We put down about 25% between the sale of our condo and savings. We could have afforded a $500,000 home at that time but we didn’t make that choice. Our extra money was going into retirement funds and kids college funds. I have not lived a glamorous lifestyle but I will be able to retire by age 58 if I want to. I’ll probably wait til 62 though. That is when my kids should be done with college.
Not trying to nitpick, but the math in this example is still not the same math we're facing these days. A 20% down payment on your first condo would have been 72% of your annual individual salary, or the max you could afford would be a down payment of around 100% of your salary. A 20% down payment for a starter home for me is in the neighborhood of 150% of my annual individual salary, so on a relative basis more than double. I think that's what folks are getting at here. Saving up $125k when you're also paying $1k/mo in student loans and trying to save for retirement takes a long time and a lot of discipline. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just different and folks like to imply that it's not. It is. Just trying to shed a little light on what my theory is as to why my generation isn't out there t-shirt-cannoning their bank accounts at wine, which isn't the "preferences" narrative.
Luckily we've made some friends and acquaintances through WB that are happy to share their nice stuff with us!
You forgot my wife also worked. Her salary was about the same as mine.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#132 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 4:23 pm

Joe B wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 4:22 pm

You forgot my wife also worked. Her salary was about the same as mine.
So does mine, and so is hers, so the math doesn't change. Not to mention that if a 20% down payment is half the fraction of your income as current, that means the mortgage on the remaining balance is also a similar difference in size so not only is saving the down payment harder, paying the mortgage is also harder as well on a relative basis.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#133 Post by A.Gillette » February 1st, 2019, 4:55 pm

This discussion is fascinating. Living in Manhattan, costs of living are so high that things that are absolutely priced (wine, travel) seem cheap on a relative basis. Even as a young guy starting out I can remember being able to have pretty decent bottles.

It’s hard for me to differentiate fact from fiction in this thread but a couple things stand out. First, Alfert’s big law firm example strikes me as the exact example that millennials should point to as evidence that they’ve been screwed. I mean, yeah - a young law firm associate makes good money. But 25 years ago, maybe it was a little less cash, but in 8 years you were going to make partner and it was more genteel and easy-going than being a banker. Now, because the guys that made partner in the 80s and 90s watched “Wall Street” too many times and decided they wanted to be as rich as I-bankers, associates are cannon fodder, it takes 11 years to make one of the 3 levels of non-equity partner, you are expected to answer your email at 3 AM, and if the market turns the partners fire every 26 year old instead of taking a pay reduction from a million to $900,000. Oh - and you have $150k in law school debt. Talk about a shit sandwich...

Second - I went to state school - graduated in ‘99. Like every other American, for every other American generation, I graduated thinking that if I worked hard and did my best, things were gonna be ok and maybe better. Maybe even a whole lot better with a little luck. But I’d do a little better for my kids than my parents did for me (which was pretty good). That was not just a dream but a near certainty. If young people no longer feel that way, then something has gone wrong.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#134 Post by Jim Brennan » February 1st, 2019, 5:12 pm

John Webber wrote:
January 31st, 2019, 10:56 am
I won't give them credit for much, but so far they have largely avoided the vanity sports (luxury cars, wine, and gated suburban housing). We will see what happens if or when they start their prime earning years. They have definitely been spending money on beer and bourbon.
Just infuse wine with an uber shit load of hops, call it an IPA, and they're all in.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#135 Post by KyleC » February 1st, 2019, 6:14 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:17 pm
Rob M wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 1:01 pm

If you are a middle-achieving student and your family is middle class, then you will have a tough time. You'll get into relatively mediocre schools and still end up paying $30K+/yr all in to attend. And your job opportunities will likely be mediocre as well, making it difficult to pay off the debt you probably took out.
No doubt the middle-class gets the squeeze on college expenses, but I wonder the rest of what you say. Perhaps it depends on your geographic region, but not all regions recruit only from Ivy or top-tier state schools. Having lived and worked in some southern states - Florida and Georgia - and the state school grads have way better than mediocre opportunites. Heck, half of my associates are from FSU and UF, neither of which are top 25 law schools. At least in law, while school quality does indeed matter, your class ranking can make a huge difference. A top 5%-10% grad at FSU, a 47th ranked law school, will get a killer, high-paying job. That kid also likely qualified for Florida bright futures scholarships paid for by the lottery, giving him/her free tuition. Not saying its easier coming from the middle, but I do not agree with the mediocrity comment. Mediocrity is what you make of any opportunity. Winners will win regardless.
Sorry, I fundamentally disagree with your argument. Best case scenario, you go to state undergrad, get into competitive enough state law school, graduate top of your class (and I mean top of your class, not top 5%-10% if you're coming from mediocre school like UF), manage to land a job at a Cravath scale firm, grind your ass off billing at least 2200-2500 hours, try to pay off $100k in debt (because you're assuming all these generous full tuition scholarships which really don't exist), while living in a high CoL area, and hope at some point down the road you'll make it to an equity partner position.

The scenario I described is the only real hope for millennials who want upward economic mobility. You literally need to be in the 0.001% to achieve this path that you call "winners will win regardless". Now let's talk about what really needs to happen:

You're upper middle class, but you're really smart, and somehow you manage to land yourself in a top 25 undergrad school (despite all the legacies and prep school kids), of which 90% are private. You're average all in cost is roughly $60-80k/year. You might qualify for some financial aid, but not a ton, and you're going to graduate with at least $50k in debt, if not more. Next, you goto a top 25 law school, again of which the vast majority are private. Private law schools are $100k/year all-in these days, and even the few public schools like Boalt are over $80k/year now given budget cuts and law school's status as professional schools. You graduate holding $300k+ combined graduate/undergraduate debt that you need to pay down as you work 100 hour weeks in the desperate hope of making partner. So there's upward mobility here again, but it's much lower than it used to be when you graduated in 1992, and sure in this scenario, you don't need to be the top 0.01%, but you still have to be the top 1-2%, which is unrealistic for an entire generation of lawyers.

Let's be real, if you look at where Am Law 100 associates and recently promoted partners went to law school, the vast majority are coming from top 25 schools. The average prospect of the decent lawyer graduating today from a state school is bleak compared to the path of a lawyer graduating from the boomer generation. And to Rob M's point, the harsh prospects of what I described is for still one of the highest paying fields around where there is mobility. In Rob M's world, which is much more reflective of the 98%, there really is little hope.

Full disclosure, I'm not a lawyer (working for one during college was enough to ensure I didn't want to goto law school champagne.gif ), but plenty of my friends are attorneys, I unfortunately pay my attorneys way too much money, and if you ask lawyers graduating today, they'll agree what I described is par for the course.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#136 Post by KyleC » February 1st, 2019, 6:36 pm

A.Gillette wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 4:55 pm
This discussion is fascinating. Living in Manhattan, costs of living are so high that things that are absolutely priced (wine, travel) seem cheap on a relative basis. Even as a young guy starting out I can remember being able to have pretty decent bottles.

It’s hard for me to differentiate fact from fiction in this thread but a couple things stand out. First, Alfert’s big law firm example strikes me as the exact example that millennials should point to as evidence that they’ve been screwed. I mean, yeah - a young law firm associate makes good money. But 25 years ago, maybe it was a little less cash, but in 8 years you were going to make partner and it was more genteel and easy-going than being a banker. Now, because the guys that made partner in the 80s and 90s watched “Wall Street” too many times and decided they wanted to be as rich as I-bankers, associates are cannon fodder, it takes 11 years to make one of the 3 levels of non-equity partner, you are expected to answer your email at 3 AM, and if the market turns the partners fire every 26 year old instead of taking a pay reduction from a million to $900,000. Oh - and you have $150k in law school debt. Talk about a shit sandwich...

Second - I went to state school - graduated in ‘99. Like every other American, for every other American generation, I graduated thinking that if I worked hard and did my best, things were gonna be ok and maybe better. Maybe even a whole lot better with a little luck. But I’d do a little better for my kids than my parents did for me (which was pretty good). That was not just a dream but a near certainty. If young people no longer feel that way, then something has gone wrong.
A
What you describe is spot on. Out of all my friends who went to law school, less than 10% are partners or are partner track. Everyone else has either gone in-house, moved to smaller firms, or to adjacent fields. I feel like these days to goto law school, you really gotta love law; if you're doing it for the money, think about finance of tech instead. And yes, when you look at the PPP of top firms, the partners have done a good job of closing the gap to their peers in banking, much to the chagrin of associates and support staff at the firm.

I went to a state school and graduated in the late 2000s. It was already getting tough, but I felt like my cohort at least had some degree of hope. I can't say the same for kids graduating today, even those who went to good schools. As you said, something is very wrong, and it's said that the majority of the country refuses to acknowledge it.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#137 Post by Siun o'Connell » February 1st, 2019, 7:19 pm

Gosh, life is not worth living if you don't make partner track at one of the top firms eh? Only graduates of the top 25 schools ... middle class kids who got to state schools will land in mediocre jobs I think someone said above. Oh and I have decided to live in Seattle and must live downtown ... etc etc. Do y'all hear yourselves? And it's the fault of Boomer arrogance and we are out of touch with reality ... and apparently we never have fun in bed coz we don't look as good as the millennials. Wow.

Now there's a political side to this I won't touch outside of the Politics forum but as a working class kid who grew up in the 60s, I really wonder who the arrogant ones are. You are defining success and happiness in life in all the wrong terms and then blaming "the olds" or "the silents" or "the boomers" for your inevitable unhappiness. And you seem completely oblivious to your own extraordinary privilege. Just amazing.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#138 Post by Markus S » February 1st, 2019, 7:22 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm
Just to note - the University of Illinois is under $13,000 for a year. Many kids - including myself back in the day - have never been able to afford the expensive private schools. I'm not saying that's the way it should be but it's not a new development. I do think what is new is the image of what is "normal" life that's been pushed by marketing and media that assumes every family has a big house with multiple baths, granite counters, blah blah blah and several cars and a pretty expensive lifestyle overall. That's not reality for most folks but I think everyone assumes that all just comes automatically - it doesn't. ...
That's what I was getting at about increased expectations being the new normal.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#139 Post by Siun o'Connell » February 1st, 2019, 7:26 pm

Markus S wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:22 pm

That's what I was getting at about increased expectations being the new normal.
Yes ... you were right on the money.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#140 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 7:27 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:19 pm

Now there's a political side to this I won't touch outside of the Politics forum but as a working class kid who grew up in the 60s, I really wonder who the arrogant ones are. You are defining success and happiness in life in all the wrong terms and then blaming "the olds" or "the silents" or "the boomers" for your inevitable unhappiness. And you seem completely oblivious to your own extraordinary privilege. Just amazing.
I’m not entirely sure that expecting to be able to afford a 1000sq ft starter home in a 2 income white collar household in your mid 30s is a very extravagant expectation. My working class (at the time) parents could afford one on one income with two kids when they were my age.
And we’ve already had this conversation, if you were paying attention. I never said I wanted to live in downtown. I don’t live in downtown, I’ve never lived in downtown, I would not want to buy a house in “downtown” Seattle, I would like to live in the city limits at all. If you think somehow from a historical perspective the fact that a real estate developer and a banker can’t afford to buy a home within the city limits of not even the most expensive city in the country is normal I don’t know how to explain what that word means to you.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#141 Post by Markus S » February 1st, 2019, 7:35 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 3:05 pm
EricE wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:36 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:26 pm
Like moving to Orlando, moving out of the city center isn’t a neutral money-only decision. Traffic is terrible in Seattle, and everything I do in my life is in the core of the city. Adding an extra 2 hours to my daily commute plus having to drive everywhere isn’t really tenable and is also a recent phenomenon. Even houses in South Park and White Center aren’t affordable anymore, though if I’m being honest the prices have slowed in the last couple months.
I ride the light rail from the raineer valley every day. Commute to DT is less than 35 min guaranteed everyday. Same can be said for the North Side in a few years
I would move to the Rainier Valley in a heartbeat, but houses are still $650k there so until i can save $125k down I'm going to be renting and saving 25% of my income every month like I said and praying the housing market doesn't get further out of reach while I save. I don't consider Rainier Valley "out of town" at all, I'm not trying to buy in Capitol Hill or Queen Anne, i'm not crazy. When I say the "city core" I'm talking basically between South Park and Ravenna.
There's always True Upstate New York: cheap housing, miniscule traffic, country at your doorstep, wineries within a short drive, good schools and four seasons.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#142 Post by Siun o'Connell » February 1st, 2019, 7:43 pm

Mine could not and certainly not in a major city. We eventually had a house my father built in a rural area that was changing to suburbs.

I'm not saying you should not be able to afford that but you have to acknowledge the choices made that are choices along with the larger changes that impact everyone, not just "millennials." And the common blame the boomers for the shifts and changes in the economy and culture which have impacted all ages is just nonsense. When I entered the workforce, you could still assume that a job would be for life and would come with a pension. If you were a woman and married, you'd likely work but more from choice than necessity (if you were white and not poor). It goes on and on. Millennials are living better than many of us ever have - and are not the only generation that has to deal with reality.

Re Upstate NY - I have good friends who left DC for Rochester and are having a blast and cannot believe they ever doubted doing so. Their life is happier, their child is happier and they have a lovely house and good life.

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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#143 Post by Markus S » February 1st, 2019, 7:45 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:43 pm
Re Upstate NY - I have good friends who left DC for Rochester and are having a blast and cannot believe they ever doubted doing so. Their life is happier, their child is happier and they have a lovely house and good life.
That's nice to hear. I like to spread the word, but like people living in the Pacific NW, you don't want everyone to move here!
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#144 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 7:46 pm

None of us are saying there is no solution to these problems, we are simply pointing out the fact that this is not normal from a historical perspective as a way to explain why millennials might spend less money on wine than their ages would suggest. Yes I am sure that if I moved to Cleveland I might be able to buy a house faster, however to deny the fact that affording a small house in the city limits of many metropolitan areas on two white collar incomes is very very difficult is somehow not different than things were 20 years ago is ridiculous.

I understand that your working class parents couldn’t afford to buy in the city in the 60s, but in the 1960s a banker and a real estate developer who are married with no children could basically buy a nice house anywhere in the country they wanted and to say that the world isn’t different now on that account is willfully ignoring the facts.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#145 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 7:56 pm

I’m not even saying I believe I am owed a house for going to college or anything, I’m just saying that things are different than they used to be.
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#146 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 8:15 pm

Siun o'Connell wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 7:43 pm
Mine could not and certainly not in a major city. We eventually had a house my father built in a rural area that was changing to suburbs.

I'm not saying you should not be able to afford that but you have to acknowledge the choices made that are choices along with the larger changes that impact everyone, not just "millennials." And the common blame the boomers for the shifts and changes in the economy and culture which have impacted all ages is just nonsense. When I entered the workforce, you could still assume that a job would be for life and would come with a pension.
the fact that this isn’t the case is absolutely down to the silent gen and the boomers dismantling the new deal and the great society and eroding the power of labor in the 80s and 90s and if you’re upset that it isn’t the case anymore you should be, the “gig economy” is bullshit

If you were a woman and married, you'd likely work but more from choice than necessity (if you were white and not poor).

It goes on and on. Millennials are living better than many of us ever have - cite your sources, we have, on absolute terms, lower upward mobility, higher cost of living, a much higher chance of doing worse economically than our parents and their parents, a more eroded middle class, more uncertain economic prospects, and a looming climate catastrophe that could collapse civilization as we know it hanging over our heads that nobody seems to care about dealing with because everyone in power will be dead before the shit really hits the fan and are not the only generation that has to deal with reality.
Last edited by Bryan Carr on February 1st, 2019, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc Hauser
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#147 Post by Marc Hauser » February 1st, 2019, 8:18 pm

Um, isn’t this a board about wine?
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Bryan Carr
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#148 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 8:19 pm

Marc Hauser wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 8:18 pm
Um, isn’t this a board about wine?
Outta my way, I’m yellin’ here!

I’m gonna be largely offline this weekend so i gotta get while the getting’s good!
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Bryan Carr
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#149 Post by Bryan Carr » February 1st, 2019, 8:23 pm

Also, sorry folks this is my pet issue, but I’ve said my piece. People have largely been very civil which is very cool because I’ve seen wine talk on WB get HEATED. Have a good weekend, if this bag of doorstep dookie is still smoldering on Monday maybe I’ll come back to ring the doorbell again!
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robert creth
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Re: "Millennials Now Ruining Wine As Well"

#150 Post by robert creth » February 1st, 2019, 8:38 pm

Maybe millennials just don’t buy the bull of the grand tour of wine that pushes Napa, Bordeaux and Burgundy as the standards. Stories of fake wines and bogus sommelier exams, expose the nasty side of high end wine biz and deflate the credibility of those who promote such. There is plenty of great, interesting and thoughtful wine made way below $50 as many others have noted.
Plus, there are many other experiences that vie for the discretionary funds.

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