Burgundy Wines

[James Stolle]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

[Mark Y]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

Because they're just not as good as BDX, and never deserving of the points. people needs to just dump the trash!

[Bill G]

I think Burgundy receives the most scrutiny of all regions....

[James Stolle]

I think Burgundy receives the most scrutiny of all regions....

Do you have a burgundy wine recommendation that is a good starting point in tasting?

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Start w some 15 bourgogne.

[AlexS]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines?

Imo, all depends on how much you can spend and are willing to. If neither budget nor shipping are concerns, you can find Burgundy from any number of great producers online. As for identifying producers, read the board (hint: search feature is your friend).

Personally, what I would do (and basically did) is save up until you have a decent budget -- say $500 - $1000 (yeah...even cheap Burgundy ain't "cheap") -- and start buying a variety of wines from larger houses which have decent availability and cover a wide range of appellations (think Jadot, Bouchard etc.). 2014 & 2015 are widely available and are both quality vintages, 2014 more "classic" & 2015 more "modern." I'm really enjoying the 2016s I've tasted as well, which might be in between 2014 & 2015 in terms of style. Go for everything from Bourgogne to Appellation to Village and maybe even splurge on a 1er or two if budgeting allows.

Although you may ultimately not prefer the "house style" from widely available producers like Jadot, Bouchard, etc. you can still identify which appellations might be most preferable for your palate. This is how I learned that I'm generally more a fan of CdN reds vs. Beaune reds, from there I can break it down into specific appellations and vineyard terroir. Once you have a broad idea of what might be your preferred appellations, you can start buying from different producers to hone in on your faves. Also, go to Burgundy tastings. Even the most basic retail tasting will provide you with invaluable experience.

Last, I should add, this process might take years...like more than a decade for me, both due to budget restrictions and the fact Burgundy is so amazingly diverse in terms of producer, vintage, terroir. And although producer almost always trumps vintage, Burgundy is one region where I place near-equal emphasis on vintage and prefer to buy wines my fave producers made in the vintages which best reflect my palate preferences.

Good luck!

As for the part on reviews/scores, I'm not even gonna touch that one lol.

[alan weinberg]

Burgundy takes work. There are many threads answering your question. Start working!

[James Stolle]

Burgundy takes work. There are many threads answering your question. Start working!

Your right m. I’m on it

[William Kelley]

My advice would be to start in the south. It's made from a different grape and grows in different soils, but Beaujolais is technically part of Burgundy, and the wines can offer some of the aromatic range and aesthetic of Burgundy, typically in a more immediate format that can be viscerally drinkable on release. With good cru Beaujolais, you will find the same variables of soil, exposition, mesoclimate and winemaking that lie behind the differences that define the Côte d'Or's wines. You might look for producers such as Foillard, Diochon and Daniel Bouland in the 2017 vintage.

If those wines appeal to you, head north. Try some Mercurey reds from François Raquillet, the Château de Chamirey and Faiveley. 2016 and 2015 are both strong vintages. They will offer more character and interest than most Bourgogne Rouge for a more modest tariff. Again, with different vineyards and producers, the optic is the same as you will find in the Côte d'Or.

Then look at the Côte d'Or. But wines from there often need some time, so it will take more work to find a mature or maturing example. You might as well start with something good that's showing its hand. A 2007 Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Cras from Domaine Roumier would be a good jumping off point.

As for books, a second hand copy of the out-of-print Making Sense of Burgundy by Matt Kramer could be a good investment in understanding the region's guiding philosophy (albeit in an extreme and somewhat idealized form), and Jasper Morris' Inside Burgundy is a great reference book, with a new edition coming soon.

[Thomas Keim]

Start out with the affordable bottlings from the ripest vintages to start -

Savigny les Beaune
Givry
Mercurey
Santenay
Cotes de Nuits Villages
Haute Cotes de Nuits
Bourgogne Rouge

[Kevin Porter]

I’ll bite on the scores. Keeping in mind that critics score wines against the exemplar of their type it would seem that they believe that there is a wider gap between excellent and ideal Burgundy than between excellent and ideal Bordeaux. What it patently does not mean is that the slew of 100 point Bords are better wines than a 90 point Burg.

[Howard Cooper]

There is a thread on this board called something like consolidated off the beaten path Burgundy tasting notes. It is linked as part of hall of fame threads. The best place to start is wines recommended in that thread.

Remember that Burgundy comes in both red and white.

[Jay Miller]

I'll add that if you have the option of attending tastings that would be the best way to find out what producers, vintages, etc. you prefer (or whether you even like the stuff at all).

There are a wide variety of styles in Burgundy. Not everyone likes the same producers.

[Howard Cooper]

I'll add that if you have the option of attending tastings that would be the best way to find out what producers, vintages, etc. you prefer (or whether you even like the stuff at all).

There are a wide variety of styles in Burgundy. Not everyone likes the same producers.

Agreed

[George Chadwick]

If I were starting fresh, I would taste every producer who makes a wine from the Cote de Nuits labelled simply Bourgogne . I would avoid reds from the Cote de Beaune until I acquired a deep appreciation for the Cote de Nuits reds for context. My next step would be to try older Bourgognes. I would then treat this as a trunk of a massive old tree with many branches. Stay near the trunk. I would venture out a single step on to many of the branches and if I didn't like the mild upgrade for a producer or negociant or vineyard I'd abandon it for a while while trying other low-end branches. I'd follow the branches I love while constantly experimenting with both air and age. I'd ruthlessly dismiss the ones that didn't appeal to me regardless of reputation. The intellectual fascination comes from examining air and age. The romantic attachments come from source and style rather than points or price.

If you have a California palate:

Gevrey: masculine like a Cabernet. I like exploring Gevrey because it's apples to apples. Bottom level Fourrier Gevrey is pricey at $80 but gives you Gevrey fruit as pure liqueur.

Morey: earthy and fun. All of them. Very recently I've found that chasing the top Morey vineyards Clos de Roche and St. Denis are half the time tremendous disappointments. Morey Monopoles/Clos like Lambrays and Tart doubled in price overnight. Go low end single vineyard like Chaffots. Earth fruit funk and not hard structure. Satisfying. But not ethereal. That's fine by me.

Nuits St Georges: tannic and lean, old ones and Laurent are both satisfying structurally like a great Cabernet. But young they're no fun. Avoid until experience, and they will never be life changing. You could avoid NSG completely and miss nothing .

Chambolle: on the low end very pretty, but overrated and simple. Higher end transcendent but too costly. Eg I adore Amoureuses, so pretty, so gentle, cool name, but every bottle I've had has been way overpriced.

Vosne Romanee: Hmm. my #1 rec for great wines at a bearable price is: buy Suchots vineyard, one bottle each from many producers. Lower end vineyards than that is disappointing, and higher than that is for people who are both prosperous and very experienced. A lot of average tasting $300 wines in the Vosne. A lot. Go Suchots. It will spoil you to look for similar sensual excitement at that price. Good luck. You'll never find it in a Beaune red.

How to keep exploring without going broke: learn about air and age. Buy well stored high ullage low end 1983 1990 1993 1996 1999 2002 to drink and learn, 2005 to hold for years.

[c fu]

My advice would be to start in the south. It's made from a different grape and grows in different soils, but Beaujolais is technically part of Burgundy, and the wines can offer some of the aromatic range and aesthetic of Burgundy, typically in a more immediate format that can be viscerally drinkable on release. With good cru Beaujolais, you will find the same variables of soil, exposition, mesoclimate and winemaking that lie behind the differences that define the Côte d'Or's wines. You might look for producers such as Foillard, Diochon and Daniel Bouland in the 2017 vintage.

If those wines appeal to you, head north. Try some Mercurey reds from François Raquillet, the Château de Chamirey and Faiveley. 2016 and 2015 are both strong vintages. They will offer more character and interest than most Bourgogne Rouge for a more modest tariff. Again, with different vineyards and producers, the optic is the same as you will find in the Côte d'Or.

Then look at the Côte d'Or. But wines from there often need some time, so it will take more work to find a mature or maturing example. You might as well start with something good that's showing its hand. A 2007 Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Cras from Domaine Roumier would be a good jumping off point.

As for books, a second hand copy of the out-of-print Making Sense of Burgundy by Matt Kramer could be a good investment in understanding the region's guiding philosophy (albeit in an extreme and somewhat idealized form), and Jasper Morris' Inside Burgundy is a great reference book, with a new edition coming soon.

Man he's gonna be $400 deep before he even tries something from Cote de Nuits.

[c fu]

I'll add that if you have the option of attending tastings that would be the best way to find out what producers, vintages, etc. you prefer (or whether you even like the stuff at all).

There are a wide variety of styles in Burgundy. Not everyone likes the same producers.

Agreed

double agreed!

[William Kelley]

My advice would be to start in the south. It's made from a different grape and grows in different soils, but Beaujolais is technically part of Burgundy, and the wines can offer some of the aromatic range and aesthetic of Burgundy, typically in a more immediate format that can be viscerally drinkable on release. With good cru Beaujolais, you will find the same variables of soil, exposition, mesoclimate and winemaking that lie behind the differences that define the Côte d'Or's wines. You might look for producers such as Foillard, Diochon and Daniel Bouland in the 2017 vintage.

If those wines appeal to you, head north. Try some Mercurey reds from François Raquillet, the Château de Chamirey and Faiveley. 2016 and 2015 are both strong vintages. They will offer more character and interest than most Bourgogne Rouge for a more modest tariff. Again, with different vineyards and producers, the optic is the same as you will find in the Côte d'Or.

Then look at the Côte d'Or. But wines from there often need some time, so it will take more work to find a mature or maturing example. You might as well start with something good that's showing its hand. A 2007 Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Cras from Domaine Roumier would be a good jumping off point.

As for books, a second hand copy of the out-of-print Making Sense of Burgundy by Matt Kramer could be a good investment in understanding the region's guiding philosophy (albeit in an extreme and somewhat idealized form), and Jasper Morris' Inside Burgundy is a great reference book, with a new edition coming soon.

Man he's gonna be $400 deep before he even tries something from Cote de Nuits.

Yeah, just for the books.

But that is also representative of what one can expect for the hobby these days.

[Markus S]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

Because Meadows rates them and he never saw a Burgundy that rated below 90.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

While I know you are joking (a bit) that is demonstrably not true. There are plenty of Burgundies rated in the 80s by Meadows, and of course he is selecting domaines based on the expectation of good wines, so it culls the herd prior to rating.

[scamhi]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

Where are you located? There might be some more experienced burgundy drinkers to share some wine with you and local burgundy retailers that have tastings.

[A.Gillette]

This is always a fun topic. There are so many ways to get into burgundy and each of them is going to be pretty rewarding in the long run. I suppose that if I were starting over I would take a more systematic approach and would try to use tastings to explore burgundy by exploring the differences in what is in the bottle. I think I might try to start with one producer across different quality levels, so I might try to sample a Hudelot-Noellat bourgogne, vosne and vosne suchot 1er at one sitting to see what I can discern as I move up the hierarchy (of course, this is going to require finding a few like-minded wine lovers who want to do the same). With a few tastings like that, you might be able to get a sense of where your sweet spot is and whether you think it is worth the money to try or to cellar some grand crus. I might also try another tasting where I grab 4 village gevreys from producers I like - maybe Fourrier, Bouvier, perhaps Bachelet if I were feeling particularly wealthy that day for some reason, and I'd see what I could discern about different producer styles. Then after a few tastings you might be able to start identifying producers who make wines in a style that your prefer (more or less oak, stems, etc). Really the possible comparisons are endless. It is nice to have a book with you when you do this so that you can try to glean some information from the bottle with the benefit of expertise, so I would definitely invest in a copy of Jasper Morris's tome.

At some point it will be essential to start thinking about ageing and maturity and how you like to drink your burgundies. This is a little tricky as well-stored bottles in their prime are going to be pricey. So I don't think I would begin that endeavor until I'd played around a little bit. But Suzanne's suggestion of trying to find others who might be willing to share strikes me as a good one. I've found wine lovers to be quite a generous group, and many seem to feel like they have more bottles than they can open themselves, and also that even if they didn't it would still be more fun to share.

I would try not to put too much attention on scores from others because my own experience is that they aren't a reliable indicator as to how I will receive a wine.

Have a blast!

Alex

[Howard Cooper]

Another way to play Hudelot-Noellat is to try villages Vosne Romanee together with villages Chambolle Musigny.

[Jürgen Steinke]

James,

I would not focus on points too much. The question is if you like the style of Burgundy because its pretty much different from Bordeaux, Napa, Spain, Tuscany, Rhone etc. Its a lighter style of wine and less powerful. And the aromatics are different too. Furthermore classic Burgundy carries way more acid than other wines more like a white than a red. If you like these Ballerina style then it makes sense to taste a Premier or Grand Cru from a good producer. If not you may be disappointed.

I think Williams suggestions are spot on. Try a Cru Beaujolais and then a Marsannay, Givry, Rully or something like that from vintages 2015 or 2016. Or a Bourgogne from a good producer. Faiveley is a very good house with good availability. You should be able to find a bottle. If these wines are enjoyable for you then buy books and try to find people with a good cellar. You can make friends easy. Ask for a wine group next to you online. I guess you will find one. Even here on this board.

[Mike Grammer]

I'll add that if you have the option of attending tastings that would be the best way to find out what producers, vintages, etc. you prefer (or whether you even like the stuff at all).

There are a wide variety of styles in Burgundy. Not everyone likes the same producers.

Agreed

Double-agreed. Have fun and belated welcome to the board, James.

[z_hart]

This is all great info. What is everyone's favorite burgundy in the $40'ish - $60'ish range that you can generally find at most good wine shops?

[James Stolle]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

Where are you located? There might be some more experienced burgundy drinkers to share some wine with you and local burgundy retailers that have tastings.

I spend my time between Durango-Telluride area, CO and Bend, OR.

[James Stolle]

If I were starting fresh, I would taste every producer who makes a wine from the Cote de Nuits labelled simply Bourgogne . I would avoid reds from the Cote de Beaune until I acquired a deep appreciation for the Cote de Nuits reds for context. My next step would be to try older Bourgognes. I would then treat this as a trunk of a massive old tree with many branches. Stay near the trunk. I would venture out a single step on to many of the branches and if I didn't like the mild upgrade for a producer or negociant or vineyard I'd abandon it for a while while trying other low-end branches. I'd follow the branches I love while constantly experimenting with both air and age. I'd ruthlessly dismiss the ones that didn't appeal to me regardless of reputation. The intellectual fascination comes from examining air and age. The romantic attachments come from source and style rather than points or price.

If you have a California palate:

Gevrey: masculine like a Cabernet. I like exploring Gevrey because it's apples to apples. Bottom level Fourrier Gevrey is pricey at $80 but gives you Gevrey fruit as pure liqueur.

Morey: earthy and fun. All of them. Very recently I've found that chasing the top Morey vineyards Clos de Roche and St. Denis are half the time tremendous disappointments. Morey Monopoles/Clos like Lambrays and Tart doubled in price overnight. Go low end single vineyard like Chaffots. Earth fruit funk and not hard structure. Satisfying. But not ethereal. That's fine by me.

Nuits St Georges: tannic and lean, old ones and Laurent are both satisfying structurally like a great Cabernet. But young they're no fun. Avoid until experience, and they will never be life changing. You could avoid NSG completely and miss nothing .

Chambolle: on the low end very pretty, but overrated and simple. Higher end transcendent but too costly. Eg I adore Amoureuses, so pretty, so gentle, cool name, but every bottle I've had has been way overpriced.

Vosne Romanee: Hmm. my #1 rec for great wines at a bearable price is: buy Suchots vineyard, one bottle each from many producers. Lower end vineyards than that is disappointing, and higher than that is for people who are both prosperous and very experienced. A lot of average tasting $300 wines in the Vosne. A lot. Go Suchots. It will spoil you to look for similar sensual excitement at that price. Good luck. You'll never find it in a Beaune red.

How to keep exploring without going broke: learn about air and age. Buy well stored high ullage low end 1983 1990 1993 1996 1999 2002 to drink and learn, 2005 to hold for years.

I'm going to use this guide and start my tastings. Thankyou so much.

[Mich@el Ch@ng]

Interesting, my path into burgundy was almost the exact opposite of what George recommended. The vast majority of my cellar is CdB reds. I do agree that suchots is a very nice vineyard though.

[Marcus Goodfellow]

I think Burgundy receives the most scrutiny of all regions....

Do you have a burgundy wine recommendation that is a good starting point in tasting?

1995 Rousseau Chambertin Clos de Beze

I’m sorry to say this but there is no starting point that can begin to cover Burgundy, just like there is no first sentence of a GREAT novel that can put you into the greatness of the book. You have to read the whole thing. Then you have to read it all again. And maybe a few more times.

With Burgundy, start anywhere you can and just absorb as much as you can each time. Then add experiences as often as you can. Don’t think about it too much, just get it in your glass until you have the wine that resets your understanding of wine. Then start chasing that until one day you wake up and you understand that you don’t know Burgundy, but you know it’s the best(and you haven’t had a crappy one in a while).

Most of all, find people who have been drinking Burgundy for a while, and talk to them as much as you can(which you’re doing here).

And learn that those who know Burgundy don’t know Burgundy, or agree on Burgundy(I would hunt 1985, 1989, 1991, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2006, 2008, and 2010) except that it can reset your understanding of wine, and Bordeaux can’t

[Marcus Goodfellow]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

Where are you located? There might be some more experienced burgundy drinkers to share some wine with you and local burgundy retailers that have tastings.

I spend my time between Durango-Telluride area, CO and Bend, OR.

Are you in Bend now? Or more to the point, will you be in Oregon during February?

[David Mc]

Great information on this thread. Will put this to good use.

[Mattstolz]

has anyone opened up any 2016 Burgs at this point? How did the 1ers from Volnay and Pommard do?

[Mark Y]

has anyone opened up any 2016 Burgs at this point? How did the 1ers from Volnay and Pommard do?

I think Charlie’s opened several 16 Liger Belair Le Romanee.

[Nathan Smyth]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines?

1) Don't.

Meaning never start tasting them.

Burgundy is a curse. Walk away from it before it destroys you.

2) If you want to drink Grand Cru burgundies, then first become a billionaire [that's with a "B" - a Billionaire].

3) If you want to drink 1er Cru burgundies, then first become a millionaire.

4) If you want to drink Village wines, then first achieve at least a $75K per year income [and make certain that you rent a teeny tiny little loft apartment at no more than about $750 per month].

5) None of the above is sarcasm - it is all the God's Honest Truth.

Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

There was a tradition that Burgundy wines were held to a much higher standard than were Bordeaux wines.

Bordeaux is for frat boys.

Burgundy is for nerds who are hell bent on obsessing and compulsing themselves to death*.

Ergo the lower scores.

[Nathan Smyth]

*And Burgundy is more than happy to oblige them.

[Marcus Goodfellow]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines?

1) Don't.

Meaning never start tasting them.

Burgundy is a curse. Walk away from it before it destroys you.

2) If you want to drink Grand Cru burgundies, then first become a billionaire [that's with a "B" - a Billionaire].

3) If you want to drink 1er Cru burgundies, then first become a millionaire.

4) If you want to drink Village wines, then first achieve at least a $75K per year income [and make certain that you rent a teeny tiny little loft apartment at no more than about $750 per month].

5) None of the above is sarcasm - it is all the God's Honest Truth.

Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

There was a tradition that Burgundy wines were held to a much higher standard than were Bordeaux wines.

Bordeaux is for frat boys.

Burgundy is for nerds who are hell bent on obsessing and compulsing themselves to death*.

Ergo the lower scores.

Amen Brother Nathan

And regarding scores...traditionally Burgundy vineyards were owned by monks, and bordeaux vineyards were owned by bankers...and the church doesn’t need the scores. If you’ve drank the Burgundy, you’re buying whether it’s got 79 or a 99

[alan weinberg]

I love how upbeat Nathan always is about Burgundy.

[alan weinberg]

has anyone opened up any 2016 Burgs at this point? How did the 1ers from Volnay and Pommard do?

I think Charlie’s opened several 16 Liger Belair Le Romanee.

he had to compare it to La Tâche and Romanée Conti!

[JDavisRoby]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also,
I spend my time between Durango-Telluride area, CO and Bend, OR.

Spent eight days in Durango last summer. Never found a good wine shop. Was glad I’d brought a case with me.

I spend five days in Bend every September. Typically stay at Pronghorn the whole time. They’ve got a decent list so I don’t fly any of mine in. Is there a good wine shop in town?

[Mattstolz]

There was a tradition that Burgundy wines were held to a much higher standard than were Bordeaux wines.

Bordeaux is for frat boys.

Burgundy is for nerds who are hell bent on obsessing and compulsing themselves to death*.

Ergo the lower scores.

hahaha this is all so true and great.

[Mike Grammer]

Agreed, big LOL here reading that, nicely done Nathan!

[Bill G]

My advice - Stay away from Burgundy. It will leave you disappointed (for the most part) and broke.

B

[Doug Schulman]

This is all great info. What is everyone's favorite burgundy in the $40'ish - $60'ish range that you can generally find at most good wine shops?

There's no single Burgundy that one can generally find at most good wine shops. You might want to start a separate thread on this or search as there have probably already been some.

[T@ntina A]

What is a good starting point in taste testing these wines? Also, when ever I see them reviewed there scores are always mid to low 90's unlike Bordeaux wines, is their a reason for this?

What got you interested in Burgundy? I think a good starting point might be answering that.
For example, I fell in love with Volnay. So I started there and learned about that AOC and the Burgundy AOCs in general, labeling etc., studied wine lists to better understand the types/prices of wines in Burgundy. Also if you focus on one village at first you can learn more about each producer and it is not that overwhelming.

From your starting point you can then branch out from what interests you. Burgundy is so complex that following someone else's path might not be intrinsically rewarding for you.

Another tip is no matter where you start just make sure you have a systematic way to taste wines. The reason is that without notes or the ability to go back to compare and contrast why you liked/didn't like something it is futile to taste. Unless you have an amazing memory.

I spent my early years of tasting wine in a fog because I didn't spit and I didn't take notes. A lot of trips and things I tasted were totally wasted.

You don't need to be a trained somm or follow deductive tasting etc., as long as it is systematic and known to you.