The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

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Mark Golodetz
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#51 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 28th, 2019, 1:18 pm

In the Summer when we did a Medoc 1982 tasting. The Las Cases was in a flight of the three Leovilles. None of them were great, and the Las Cases was still massive and dull and I liked it least of the three.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#52 Post by Howard Cooper » January 28th, 2019, 2:30 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 1:18 pm
In the Summer when we did a Medoc 1982 tasting. The Las Cases was in a flight of the three Leovilles. None of them were great, and the Las Cases was still massive and dull and I liked it least of the three.
Ok, then, I guess we disagree on LLC.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#53 Post by John Morris » January 28th, 2019, 7:08 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 1:18 pm
In the Summer when we did a Medoc 1982 tasting. The Las Cases was in a flight of the three Leovilles. None of them were great, and the Las Cases was still massive and dull and I liked it least of the three.
The LLC was my least favorite of the 82 Super Seconds. It had a porty quality in its early years. Any of that left, Mark?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#54 Post by Greg K » January 28th, 2019, 7:40 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 6:42 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm


Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
Put me down as one with big love for LLC.
We seem to have similar tastes, but not with this. A lot of disappointments, especially 1982 and 1986. Very good wines in 1985 and 1989, and a brilliant 1996. But overall for me, a wine with a great reputation that too seldom delivers.
We had a trio of LLC on my birthday this past November. The 79 was not especially memorable, though a solid wine. The 85 was probably my favorite LLC I’ve ever had, while the 1996 was both young and boring. A 1990 I had last year was equally monolithic and boring despite 3 hours in a decanter.
LLC is a bigger wine than Ducru but I think Ducru is a far more interesting wine capable of greater expression.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#55 Post by Bdklein » May 22nd, 2020, 5:15 pm

A good friend of mine received a 1961 Palmer as a gift around 15 years ago, and it was purchased at that time . Any guesses what it cost then ? Or is there some (free) website out there for this ? We are both curious , thanks .
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#56 Post by M. Dildine » May 22nd, 2020, 6:39 pm

Always my favorite Bordeaux. One remaining - a 2000.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#57 Post by Tom Taylor » May 23rd, 2020, 2:39 am

Has Cos D’Estournel been mentioned as a Super Second?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#58 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 23rd, 2020, 4:19 am

Bdklein wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:15 pm
A good friend of mine received a 1961 Palmer as a gift around 15 years ago, and it was purchased at that time . Any guesses what it cost then ? Or is there some (free) website out there for this ? We are both curious , thanks .
Probably not that different from what it is now; around $1500 with a possible 50% increase depending on provenance. I used a bottle in a 2000 tasting from my own collection for a millennium event and charged $1500.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#59 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 23rd, 2020, 4:21 am

Tom Taylor wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 2:39 am
Has Cos D’Estournel been mentioned as a Super Second?
I have never thought of it as a legitimate super second, although many do. To me, it has a lot less character than say a Palmer, Ducru or Montrose, and that for me is what makes a contender for membership of the Super Second Club.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#60 Post by Howard Cooper » May 23rd, 2020, 5:28 am

When I first heard the word super second in the 1980s, I thought of them being LLC, Palmer, Ducru and Pichon Lalande. At that time I would have thought that Cos was close and even closer than Montrose. A lot of that was because of how good the 1982 Cos was. Over the first 20 years or so after release, the 1982 Cos was the favorite or one of the top favorites at virtually every 1982 tasting I attend. Over the years since then, I think Montrose has made much better wines than Cos in most vintages. And, the 1982 Cos, while still excellent, has been surpassed by a bunch of other 1982s. Today, my super seconds would include Montrose, but not Cos.

My question on super seconds is what do you do with Mission Haut Brion. Not a Medoc, but then neither is Haut Brion. Generally priced higher than 2nd growths, but lower than 1st growths. Is Mission Haut Brion is super second or is it better than that.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#61 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 23rd, 2020, 6:31 am

Super-Duper Second?

It would be my choice, generally, over the so-called Super Seconds.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#62 Post by Bob Hughes » May 23rd, 2020, 7:35 am

If I read Mark's comment correctly, have to admit I'm pretty surprised anyone would call the '86 LLC disappointing.

Then again, probably more shocked that Jayson apparently thinks more highly of Giscours, so I guess one more example of how subjective palates can be.

The tasting that always sticks in my mind was a day years ago where I brought an '89 Pichon Baron and an '89 Lynch Bages, which are both nice wines that drank great that day. My buddy brought a '90 LLC that we flighted with my wines, and the LLC absolutely torched my wines - an opinion unanimous among the tasters that day. I just couldn't fathom how a wine could show that much better than the two wines I brought.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#63 Post by Joshua Kates » May 23rd, 2020, 7:41 am

Bob Hughes wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 7:35 am
If I read Mark's comment correctly, have to admit I'm pretty surprised anyone would call the '86 LLC disappointing.

Then again, probably more shocked that Jayson apparently thinks more highly of Giscours, so I guess one more example of how subjective palates can be.

The tasting that always sticks in my mind was a day years ago where I brought an '89 Pichon Baron and an '89 Lynch Bages, which are both nice wines that drank great that day. My buddy brought a '90 LLC that we flighted with my wines, and the LLC absolutely torched my wines - an opinion unanimous among the tasters that day. I just couldn't fathom how a wine could show that much better than the two wines I brought.
That is indeed strange, Bob,
Though it may depend on timing. About maybe 5-8 years ago, I had the '82 LLC in a flight with the '89 Lynch-Bages. This was the best showing of the Lynch I have yet experienced and it left the LLC in the dust. But maybe it's the old "only good bottles..."
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#64 Post by Ramon C » May 23rd, 2020, 7:44 am

Bob Hughes wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 7:35 am
If I read Mark's comment correctly, have to admit I'm pretty surprised anyone would call the '86 LLC disappointing.

Then again, probably more shocked that Jayson apparently thinks more highly of Giscours, so I guess one more example of how subjective palates can be.

The tasting that always sticks in my mind was a day years ago where I brought an '89 Pichon Baron and an '89 Lynch Bages, which are both nice wines that drank great that day. My buddy brought a '90 LLC that we flighted with my wines, and the LLC absolutely torched my wines - an opinion unanimous among the tasters that day. I just couldn't fathom how a wine could show that much better than the two wines I brought.
While I'm crazy for good bottles of both '89 Pichon Baron and Lynch Bages, I'm glad to read that I'm not alone in singing the praises of the '90 LLC and although I've never done a head-to-head, not that surprised that it can beat out the two '89s.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#65 Post by Mattstolz » May 23rd, 2020, 9:56 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 9:06 am
A Rubin Stein wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 8:45 am
I have a fondness for Palmer, after reading in "Wine and War" that Palmer hid Jews during World War II.
That I didn’t know. That might get me to reassess my feeling that Palmer is always excellent but slightly too polished and silky to get me excited.

Might want to borrow that book. Never read it.
i just wanted to throw out another vote for wine and war. fascinating book.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#66 Post by Keith Levenberg » May 23rd, 2020, 10:29 am

Best way to define super-seconds is the same way the classification was originally done - price

Here are the second growths:
Rauzan-Ségla
Rauzan-Gassies
Léoville-Las Cases
Léoville-Poyferré
Léoville-Barton
Durfort-Vivens
Gruaud-Larose
Lascombes
Brane-Cantenac
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Ducru-Beaucaillou
Cos d'Estournel
Montrose

And here are the ones that cost more than a C-note:
Léoville-Las Cases
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Ducru-Beaucaillou
Cos d'Estournel
Montrose

Those are your super-seconds. This is not rocket science!

(Yes, an honorary membership case could be made for Palmer and LMHB, but it's probably better form to say, "the super-seconds plus Palmer and LMHB," kind of like "the first growths and Petrus")

I'm late to the original topic of the post, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say it's a combination of multiple factors:
- no other candidates in serious competition for "prince of Margaux" behind Ch. Margaux
- many other Margaux not only lagging behind Palmer & Ch. Margaux, but lagging behind their own historical reps
- anglicized name made it a longtime favorite of the UK trade
- iconic label
- tremendous reputation of the '61
- mega-price-inflation in the aughts when they started gunning for Parker points, and got them

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#67 Post by Bdklein » May 23rd, 2020, 11:10 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 4:19 am
Bdklein wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:15 pm
A good friend of mine received a 1961 Palmer as a gift around 15 years ago, and it was purchased at that time . Any guesses what it cost then ? Or is there some (free) website out there for this ? We are both curious , thanks .
Probably not that different from what it is now; around $1500 with a possible 50% increase depending on provenance. I used a bottle in a 2000 tasting from my own collection for a millennium event and charged $1500.
Gotcha thanks .
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#68 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 23rd, 2020, 12:32 pm

Bob Hughes wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 7:35 am
If I read Mark's comment correctly, have to admit I'm pretty surprised anyone would call the '86 LLC disappointing.

Then again, probably more shocked that Jayson apparently thinks more highly of Giscours, so I guess one more example of how subjective palates can be.

The tasting that always sticks in my mind was a day years ago where I brought an '89 Pichon Baron and an '89 Lynch Bages, which are both nice wines that drank great that day. My buddy brought a '90 LLC that we flighted with my wines, and the LLC absolutely torched my wines - an opinion unanimous among the tasters that day. I just couldn't fathom how a wine could show that much better than the two wines I brought.
I don’t remember what I said. Let me see if I agree with it.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#69 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 23rd, 2020, 12:36 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 12:32 pm
Bob Hughes wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 7:35 am
If I read Mark's comment correctly, have to admit I'm pretty surprised anyone would call the '86 LLC disappointing.

Then again, probably more shocked that Jayson apparently thinks more highly of Giscours, so I guess one more example of how subjective palates can be.

The tasting that always sticks in my mind was a day years ago where I brought an '89 Pichon Baron and an '89 Lynch Bages, which are both nice wines that drank great that day. My buddy brought a '90 LLC that we flighted with my wines, and the LLC absolutely torched my wines - an opinion unanimous among the tasters that day. I just couldn't fathom how a wine could show that much better than the two wines I brought.
I don’t remember what I said. Let me see if I agree with it.
I agree with myself.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#70 Post by Bdklein » May 23rd, 2020, 1:13 pm

Bdklein wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:10 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 4:19 am
Bdklein wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:15 pm
A good friend of mine received a 1961 Palmer as a gift around 15 years ago, and it was purchased at that time . Any guesses what it cost then ? Or is there some (free) website out there for this ? We are both curious , thanks .
Probably not that different from what it is now; around $1500 with a possible 50% increase depending on provenance. I used a bottle in a 2000 tasting from my own collection for a millennium event and charged $1500.
Gotcha thanks .
It was purchased retail in NYC from a prominent , reputable place . Nots sure specifically which one .
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#71 Post by K. Tr@n » May 23rd, 2020, 1:34 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 10:29 am
Best way to define super-seconds is the same way the classification was originally done - price

Here are the second growths:
Rauzan-Ségla
Rauzan-Gassies
Léoville-Las Cases
Léoville-Poyferré
Léoville-Barton
Durfort-Vivens
Gruaud-Larose
Lascombes
Brane-Cantenac
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Ducru-Beaucaillou
Cos d'Estournel
Montrose

And here are the ones that cost more than a C-note:
Léoville-Las Cases
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Ducru-Beaucaillou
Cos d'Estournel
Montrose

Those are your super-seconds. This is not rocket science!

(Yes, an honorary membership case could be made for Palmer and LMHB, but it's probably better form to say, "the super-seconds plus Palmer and LMHB," kind of like "the first growths and Petrus")
Vinfolio's definition has all 6 + Poyferre and LMHB
https://blog.vinfolio.com/2020/02/14/wh ... vestments/

Jeff's definition has all 6 + poyferre, LMHB, Pontet Canet, Palmer.
https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/wi ... -listings/

In term of original classification criteria, LMHB should be first growth.
https://www.liv-ex.com/2017/07/liv-ex-2 ... left-bank/

Palmer, LLC; Montrose, Cos, Ducru are the 5 most expensive wines after the first growths. I really don't know how the prices for SHL and Lynch Bages are higher than the Pichons since I have never seen any wine stores selling the Pichons less than those other 2 in any given new release. Also, Cos is always more expensive than Montrose in new releases going back so long. Don't know how it is so close here.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#72 Post by Keith Levenberg » May 23rd, 2020, 2:31 pm

Nope. Poyferre is not a super-second. What would that make the others? Super-duper-seconds?

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#73 Post by Dan Kravitz » May 23rd, 2020, 6:44 pm

IMO LMHB is in a class by itself, better than any of the 'Super Seconds' (including Palmer, which I love immoderately). Or, put another way, it's at least in a class with Mouton, which rarely seems to make wine that justifies the political promotion it received in 1973.

While I like Keith's list and criteria, it doesn't take into account the lower-rated wines that now sell in triple digits. Pontet Canet, Lynch Bages, is there anybody else?

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#74 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 23rd, 2020, 7:04 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 6:44 pm
IMO LMHB is in a class by itself, better than any of the 'Super Seconds' (including Palmer, which I love immoderately).
It’s so consistently, undeniably great.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#75 Post by Chris Foley » May 24th, 2020, 6:02 am

Dan Kravitz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 6:44 pm
,,,
While I like Keith's list and criteria, it doesn't take into account the lower-rated wines that now sell in triple digits. Pontet Canet, Lynch Bages, is there anybody else?

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#76 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 24th, 2020, 11:38 am

Keith's list was limited to second growths, hence "super seconds". Not sure he gets to do that in a thread that started out with the premise that Palmer is a super second, but it is a consistent and reasonable definition.

If you wanted to re-classify Bordeaux based on price, like redo 1855, that would be an interesting exercise and yes Pontet, Lynch, Calon might be grouped together with some of the super seconds on that basis. Certainly Palmer.

There are two discussions going on in this thread, one being, which wines does the poster personally feel are worth the now exorbitant prices for the best non-first growth producers, and the other being how does the market hierarchy work.

Re Palmer, I think they benefited enormously from being a merlot-heavy wine that was able to shift to a very rich/succulent/Parkerized style. They definitely rode that as far as it would take them and milked all the price appreciation they could get out of it. Even though I can't afford them any more I don't blame them. I suspect they handled that transition better than a lot of the right bank producers that ended up making wines that are real messes. I tried a 2009 Palmer at a tasting and it almost could have been a Chateauneuf du Pape. But not in a bad way, it was still terrific!

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#77 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 24th, 2020, 11:51 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 6:53 am
James Billy wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 3:08 am
Pichon Baron?
Not for me. For me, this wine lacks a bit of elegance to be rated that highly.
Disagree -- since 2000 PB has been on a roll and isn't rustic at all. More consistent than Lalande IMO.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#78 Post by Ramon C » May 24th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 11:38 am
I tried a 2009 Palmer at a tasting and it almost could have been a Chateauneuf du Pape. But not in a bad way, it was still terrific!
With Châteauneuf-du-Pape needing all the help they can get in marketing themselves these days, tasting like Chateau Palmer could be the ticket to regaining some respectability. [cheers.gif]
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#79 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 24th, 2020, 4:59 pm

First and foremost, the 1855 classification has outlived its usefulness. We don’t just rate properties, we score them based on the actual wine in any given year. No classification can match that degree of accuracy. It is still used and relevant only for the first growths, and which chateaux are classified.

Second: not only is the classification now redundant, but it continues to be a trap for the unwary. It won’t be scrapped, but it should never be allowed to influence anybody’s buying decisions. The classification has skewed pricing, so that First Growths have been for most of the twenty first century between three and five times the cost of the super seconds, a far cry from the less than 50% premium in 1855.

Third: the first growths are in a golden age, but so too are the next ten to fifteen wannabes. I would argue that the like of Ducru, Montrose and Pichon Lalande are every bit as consistent and interesting as Margaux Mouton etc. No reason for that ridiculous price disparity.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#80 Post by John Morris » May 24th, 2020, 5:16 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 11:38 am
....
Re Palmer, I think they benefited enormously from being a merlot-heavy wine that was able to shift to a very rich/succulent/Parkerized style. They definitely rode that as far as it would take them and milked all the price appreciation they could get out of it. Even though I can't afford them any more I don't blame them. I suspect they handled that transition better than a lot of the right bank producers that ended up making wines that are real messes. I tried a 2009 Palmer at a tasting and it almost could have been a Chateauneuf du Pape. But not in a bad way, it was still terrific!
Bingo! I think the high proportion of merlot (50% now according to Jeff Levy's site) is a big reason they can be so outstanding. Or could be. I haven't had one in years, so I don't know about any Parkerization. But I vividly remember '61, '66, '79 and '83, which had a caressing quality, which I'm sure stems in part from the merlot.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#81 Post by Andy Sc » May 25th, 2020, 2:20 am

For me it's pretty obvious, why Palmer is so high regarded:

As somebody mentioned before, its probably one of the most Burgundian wines of the left bank, from the most Burgundian appellation of the left bank. It therefore also has early charms and shuts down not as hard as other wines (from Pauillac, StEstephe, Saint Julien). As most Bordeaux wines are consumed within the first 20 years of their life, people hence had much better experiences with your average Palmer than with your average Leoville Las Cases (1986 not nearly ready yet).
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#82 Post by K. Tr@n » May 25th, 2020, 9:51 am

Went on youtube to look up some palmer reviews.



Suckling is not feeling Palmer. 2003 got a 91 JS. I wonder if price is also a factor for score. I do that for my own score, but not sure if these guys do as well.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#83 Post by Dan Kravitz » May 25th, 2020, 3:56 pm

"Suckling is not feeling Palmer. 2003 got a 91 JS".

Is that the single lowest rating that Suckling has given since he went out on his own? neener

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#84 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 26th, 2020, 3:23 am

I did not realize his scale went down so far. I thought it was 99 to 100
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#85 Post by K. Tr@n » May 26th, 2020, 8:54 am

Suckling had the cajones to hand them 91 face to face, on camera. He did that to a few more chateaux, even first growth.
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