The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

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Mark Golodetz
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The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 26th, 2019, 7:42 am

The only Medoc super second that is not a second growth
and yet the most expensive of the super seconds

I am not sure how they managed this. A couple of legendary wines from the sixties, an incredible label, but hard to say the wine is better than Ducru, Léoville Las Cases or Pichon Lalande.
Last edited by Mark Golodetz on January 26th, 2019, 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#2 Post by scamhi » January 26th, 2019, 7:50 am

We had it next to LLC and Pichon Lalande last week they were all 89's and the Palmer came out on top.

89 Palmer was the wine of the night just over the 89 Lynch Bages by one point
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#3 Post by A Rubin Stein » January 26th, 2019, 8:45 am

I have a fondness for Palmer, after reading in "Wine and War" that Palmer hid Jews during World War II.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#4 Post by C. Mc Cart » January 26th, 2019, 9:00 am

Just a thought, but there were a few years in the 80's that Palmer matched or bettered Ch. Margaux (and there weren't other great Margaux estates), think that may have had something to do with the prices over the past few decades. Participated in a Palmer vertical late last year and to my tastes, it does seem incorrectly priced vs. peer quality.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#5 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 9:06 am

A Rubin Stein wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 8:45 am
I have a fondness for Palmer, after reading in "Wine and War" that Palmer hid Jews during World War II.
That I didn’t know. That might get me to reassess my feeling that Palmer is always excellent but slightly too polished and silky to get me excited.

Might want to borrow that book. Never read it.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#6 Post by Ramon C » January 26th, 2019, 9:20 am

83 and 89 admirably shined very bright for Palmer when compared to most 2nd Growths. However, after then, I also find it questionable that it is priced on the high side of the spectrum relative to most other, more consistent/solid, 2nd Growths.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#7 Post by Joshua Kates » January 26th, 2019, 9:27 am

I have not drunk much, owing to the price, and it does tend toward the glossy side, as Jayson points out, but in the group tastings where I've had it, it tends to stand out--broad shouldered, yet still complex and interesting wine, kind of like the Latour of Margaux. Maybe that accounts for some of its rep?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#8 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » January 26th, 2019, 9:47 am

Didn't used to be expensive - certainly through to the '90, Palmer was "as cheap" as other "super seconds". Haven't followed pricing since the 2000. Could it be that Ducru, LLC, PL all have excellent substitutes / next best wines in their appellations, whereas Palmer (and LMHB) are more expensive being: 1st [small gap] Palmer/LMHB [large gap] next best?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#9 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 26th, 2019, 9:53 am

I have nothing against Palmer, in fact the 1961 I had with a mid shoulder fill is one of my top three wines. I have had he 1989 several times, and brilliant as it sometimes is, at least half the bottles have been disappointing. 1983 is much more consistent and also great.

That being said, although those two wines are legitimate super seconds, the majority of wines are in the middle of the pack. For years, I would go to Palmer hoping to find a wine as great as the 1961 must have been. 2005 came close, but when I tasted the 2010, I think I found it. Even the usually pleasant but non descript Alter Ego was profound that year.

But most of the wines I have tasted are in the very good but not great category, and I can think of few wines that are better than say Mouton, arguably the least of the first Growths.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#10 Post by k s h i n » January 26th, 2019, 10:55 am

IMO, Chateau Palmer is most Burgundian left bank Bordeaux. I prefer it to the super seconds.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#11 Post by Brian Pinci » January 26th, 2019, 11:43 am

I've had the '83 and '89 Palmers and both were wonderful. But, I purchased them when they came out so the price wasn't an issue then. Now, you're right, the price is definitely up there and I haven't purchased it since because of that.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#12 Post by Jim F » January 26th, 2019, 12:11 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:42 am
The only Medoc super second that is not a second growth
and yet the most expensive of the super seconds

I am not sure how they managed this. A couple of legendary wines from the sixties, an incredible label, but hard to say the wine is better than Ducru, Léoville Las Cases or Pichon Lalande.
I thought Lynch Bages was generally considered a super second. And that is a fifth if I recall correctly?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#13 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 26th, 2019, 12:56 pm

Lynch is indeed a fifth growth, but I don’t think it is considered a super second, but lies on the periphery, close but not quite there.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#14 Post by pnitze » January 26th, 2019, 1:08 pm

I agree with Kevin. I think Palmer’s price is well earned. IMO the three top super seconds by quality are LMHB, Palmer, and LLC. But LLC will continue to sell for less than Palmer and LMHB, because it is a stricter, more linear wine, and because it shuts down very hard. It is also from a commune that gets less attention and love than the other Medoc communes.

I would add that to my taste Montrose has now matched them at least since 2010. But that is too short a history to make a judgment on, at least for me. Montrose also has the distinction of making an extraordinary second wine in recent vintages.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#15 Post by Matt Fleming » January 26th, 2019, 2:56 pm

Pretty easy for me to say it outclasses the second growths. Ducru, Pichon struggle in some off vintages. Palmer in, say, 1999? Fantastic wine.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#16 Post by Jim F » January 26th, 2019, 3:25 pm

So, how do we define “ super second”? To me, it implies true seconds that outperform somewhat regularly and challennge the firsts. But since undefined, can include over performing lower-than-seconds also (am I being too flexible?). Palmer can do it, if not regularly. I threw in Lynch Bages, and I would think LMHB, LLC, Ducru are there. Montrose was mentioned, and i would say that there high level performace goes back in time further than 2010.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#17 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm

“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#18 Post by JAKE H A N C O C K » January 26th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm
“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.
Speaking of pre-spoof Bordeaux, who are some others you would you have above LLC and LB?

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#19 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 3:57 pm

Just sticking with the left bank theme and accounting also for wines that never spoofed, and recognizing many folks disagree and for reasons that allude me love LLC and Lynch Bages (yes, yes, I’ve never had the 89), at least: Barton, Poyferre, Pape Clement, Domaine de Chevalier, Calon Segur, Gruaud, certain vintages of Rauzan Segla and certain vintages of Giscours. That’s off the top of my head.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#20 Post by Ramon C » January 26th, 2019, 3:58 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm
“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.
Jayson had always called it admirably very well and fair with the wines at off lines that I've had with him. However, this time I'll disagree with his take on Palmer being >>> LLC. Even in 83 and 89, where Palmer hit it over the wall, I thought LLC still got hit 2nd and 3rd base hits. Moving on to the 90s, while Palmer did very well and kicked butt in '99 , I still think that LLC did better in all the other years in that decade, all the way to 2002.

Btw, I think Palmer's 2004 is one of the wines of the vintage.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#21 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Ramon C wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm
“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.
Jayson had always called it admirably very well and fair with the wines at off lines that I've had with him. However, this time I'll disagree with his take on Palmer being >>> LLC. Even in 83 and 89, where Palmer hit it over the wall, I thought LLC still got hit 2nd and 3rd base hits. Moving on to the 90s, while Palmer did very well and kicked butt in '99 , I still think that LLC did better in all the other years in that decade, all the way to 2002.

Btw, I think Palmer's 2004 is one of the wines of the vintage.
Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#22 Post by Ed Steinway » January 26th, 2019, 4:57 pm

I do not have a lot of experience with Chateau Palmer, but a bottle of the 1990 a few years ago was one of the best bottles of Bordeaux I have had. It was truly exceptional.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#23 Post by RyanC » January 26th, 2019, 5:00 pm

An 04 Palmer recently was *really* good. But I agree that PLL etc are usually just as good or better.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#24 Post by R. Frankel » January 26th, 2019, 7:34 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
My POV (and I am one of those LLC big love folks) is that LLC is awesome but needs a lot of time. So perhaps harder to read because younger vintages are so tightly wound. Right now 1982 is amazing, 1989 is extremely good and 1990 is youthful but impressive. 1996 is not ready. Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.

The 1989 Palmer is lovely but at its current price I’d strongly prefer many other Bordeaux from that vintage (Pichon Comtesse, Pichon Baron, Angelus, Lynch Bages, La Conseillante, Troplong Mondot). LLC is a toss up.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#25 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 7:43 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:34 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
My POV (and I am one of those LLC big love folks) is that LLC is awesome but needs a lot of time. So perhaps harder to read because younger vintages are so tightly wound. Right now 1982 is amazing, 1989 is extremely good and 1990 is youthful but impressive. 1996 is not ready. Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.

The 1989 Palmer is lovely but at its current price I’d strongly prefer many other Bordeaux from that vintage (Pichon Comtesse, Pichon Baron, Angelus, Lynch Bages, La Conseillante, Troplong Mondot). LLC is a toss up.
LOL. Like I said, I keep trying to understand and can’t. But to put my comments in context, I rarely drink Bordeaux younger than 1990. Too young.

And this statement doesn’t make much sense to me either: “Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.”

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#26 Post by R. Frankel » January 26th, 2019, 7:49 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:43 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:34 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
My POV (and I am one of those LLC big love folks) is that LLC is awesome but needs a lot of time. So perhaps harder to read because younger vintages are so tightly wound. Right now 1982 is amazing, 1989 is extremely good and 1990 is youthful but impressive. 1996 is not ready. Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.

The 1989 Palmer is lovely but at its current price I’d strongly prefer many other Bordeaux from that vintage (Pichon Comtesse, Pichon Baron, Angelus, Lynch Bages, La Conseillante, Troplong Mondot). LLC is a toss up.
LOL. Like I said, I keep trying to understand and can’t. But to put my comments in context, I rarely drink Bordeaux younger than 1990. Too young.

And this statement doesn’t make much sense to me either: “Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.”
[yes, thread drift] Jayson, you listed these as ones you preferred: “Barton, Poyferre, Pape Clement, Domaine de Chevalier, Calon Segur, Gruaud, certain vintages of Rauzan Segla and certain vintages of Giscours.” My point was that these enter maturity earlier than LLC. Or did I minterpret your post?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#27 Post by Howard Cooper » January 26th, 2019, 7:56 pm

To me, the super seconds are LMHB, LLC, Palmer, Ducru and Montrose. Pichon Lalande can be at this level at its best, but IMHO it is less consistent than the ones listed above.

I like Lynch Bages a lot, but I cannot put it close to being a super second. I would excellent estates like Leoville Barton, Rauzan Segla and a few others above LB in addition to the super seconds. Not at all sure I would even put LB ahead of Grand Puy Lacoste.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#28 Post by Howard Cooper » January 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm
Ramon C wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm
“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.

Jayson had always called it admirably very well and fair with the wines at off lines that I've had with him. However, this time I'll disagree with his take on Palmer being >>> LLC. Even in 83 and 89, where Palmer hit it over the wall, I thought LLC still got hit 2nd and 3rd base hits. Moving on to the 90s, while Palmer did very well and kicked butt in '99 , I still think that LLC did better in all the other years in that decade, all the way to 2002.

Btw, I think Palmer's 2004 is one of the wines of the vintage.
Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
Put me down as one with big love for LLC.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#29 Post by jbray23 » January 26th, 2019, 8:15 pm

One of the things not mentioned is that Palmer is a big import partner to the states...they deal with many more estates outside of Bordeaux and facilitate as a negotiant would. Their price is high because they control a big percentage of their wine imported to the states...

Their expensive Bordeaux pricing isn’t mutually exclusive to Palmer, but all the rest of the Bordeaux in their import portfolio..
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#30 Post by Jayson Cohen » January 26th, 2019, 8:48 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:49 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:43 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:34 pm


My POV (and I am one of those LLC big love folks) is that LLC is awesome but needs a lot of time. So perhaps harder to read because younger vintages are so tightly wound. Right now 1982 is amazing, 1989 is extremely good and 1990 is youthful but impressive. 1996 is not ready. Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.

The 1989 Palmer is lovely but at its current price I’d strongly prefer many other Bordeaux from that vintage (Pichon Comtesse, Pichon Baron, Angelus, Lynch Bages, La Conseillante, Troplong Mondot). LLC is a toss up.
LOL. Like I said, I keep trying to understand and can’t. But to put my comments in context, I rarely drink Bordeaux younger than 1990. Too young.

And this statement doesn’t make much sense to me either: “Most of the other wines discussed here have much shorter aging curves.”
[yes, thread drift] Jayson, you listed these as ones you preferred: “Barton, Poyferre, Pape Clement, Domaine de Chevalier, Calon Segur, Gruaud, certain vintages of Rauzan Segla and certain vintages of Giscours.” My point was that these enter maturity earlier than LLC. Or did I minterpret your post?
I took your post to mean these are wines that mature and die on a quicker time scale. Not my experience. I’m also not sure of what maturity means here as these all can evolve for decades even if they start to open up, which is highly vintage dependent. Moreover, if one doesn’t particularly like where LLC ever gets to, it doesn’t matter how long it takes.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#31 Post by James Billy » January 27th, 2019, 3:08 am

Pichon Baron?

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#32 Post by Jim F » January 27th, 2019, 5:04 am

So many persoanl tastes...which is fun and great, but still no real working definition? Does a super-second have to be a second? I would guess the consensus is “no”, but then again, you never know around here.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#33 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » January 27th, 2019, 5:28 am

Jim F wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 5:04 am
So many persoanl tastes...which is fun and great, but still no real working definition? Does a super-second have to be a second? I would guess the consensus is “no”, but then again, you never know around here.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#34 Post by Joshua Kates » January 27th, 2019, 6:50 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm
Ramon C wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:58 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:39 pm
“Rankings” are personal here as is obvious from all these posts.

For me no question as to general preference of LMHB, Ducru, Montrose, PL > Palmer >>> LLC, Lynch Bages.

There are a large number of wines implicit in the “>>>” above, particularly if you are talking pre-spoof Bordeaux.
Jayson had always called it admirably very well and fair with the wines at off lines that I've had with him. However, this time I'll disagree with his take on Palmer being >>> LLC. Even in 83 and 89, where Palmer hit it over the wall, I thought LLC still got hit 2nd and 3rd base hits. Moving on to the 90s, while Palmer did very well and kicked butt in '99 , I still think that LLC did better in all the other years in that decade, all the way to 2002.

Btw, I think Palmer's 2004 is one of the wines of the vintage.
Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
+1 I' ve had older ones, '78 and '82, if I recall--just never seem that exciting.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#35 Post by Howard Cooper » January 27th, 2019, 6:53 am

James Billy wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 3:08 am
Pichon Baron?
Not for me. For me, this wine lacks a bit of elegance to be rated that highly.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#36 Post by John Morris » January 27th, 2019, 7:15 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 9:06 am
A Rubin Stein wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 8:45 am
I have a fondness for Palmer, after reading in "Wine and War" that Palmer hid Jews during World War II.
That I didn’t know. That might get me to reassess my feeling that Palmer is always excellent but slightly too polished and silky to get me excited.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the cepage: The vines are 47% merlot, 47% cabernet sauvignon and 6% petit verdot. I think that goes a long way to explaining the silkiness and polish.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#37 Post by crickey » January 27th, 2019, 7:28 am

Jim F wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 5:04 am
So many persoanl tastes...which is fun and great, but still no real working definition? Does a super-second have to be a second? I would guess the consensus is “no”, but then again, you never know around here.
As the OP said, "The only Medoc super second that is not a second growth."

To Mark's question (ignoring his commentary on its quality or lack thereof), some of its pricing premium must be due to it being perceived as the second best (and often close to the best) wine in Margaux, similar to the premium La Mission Haut Brion enjoys, although the latter isn't even part of the 1885 classification. I think that allows it to price at a small discount relative to the first growth in that appellation.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#38 Post by Karl K » January 27th, 2019, 7:39 am

+1 to Crickey

Also +1 to notion that 04 is very good, though I say it’s just at the beginning of its open window.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#39 Post by Ramon C » January 27th, 2019, 7:40 am

crickey wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 7:28 am
Jim F wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 5:04 am
So many persoanl tastes...which is fun and great, but still no real working definition? Does a super-second have to be a second? I would guess the consensus is “no”, but then again, you never know around here.
As the OP said, "The only Medoc super second that is not a second growth."

To Mark's question (ignoring his commentary on its quality or lack thereof), some of its pricing premium must be due to it being perceived as the second best (and often close to the best) wine in Margaux, similar to the premium La Mission Haut Brion enjoys, although the latter isn't even part of the 1885 classification. I think that allows it to price at a small discount relative to the first growth in that appellation.
A high praise to be put in the same context as LMHB. I do have some 90s and 20s of Palmer, and still maintain that it's not in the same consistent quality level as LMHB, though.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#40 Post by John Morris » January 27th, 2019, 8:01 am

I haven't had a Palmer in many years, but the '61 and '66 in the 1980s certainly deserved Super Second status, and the '79 and '83 were truly memorable.

No comments on the very high merlot content?
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#41 Post by Jim F » January 27th, 2019, 9:18 am

crickey wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 7:28 am
Jim F wrote:
January 27th, 2019, 5:04 am
So many persoanl tastes...which is fun and great, but still no real working definition? Does a super-second have to be a second? I would guess the consensus is “no”, but then again, you never know around here.
As the OP said, "The only Medoc super second that is not a second growth."

To Mark's question (ignoring his commentary on its quality or lack thereof), some of its pricing premium must be due to it being perceived as the second best (and often close to the best) wine in Margaux, similar to the premium La Mission Haut Brion enjoys, although the latter isn't even part of the 1885 classification. I think that allows it to price at a small discount relative to the first growth in that appellation.
Yes, that was the OP’s opinion. But, there are other views. A quick google search confirms that. Super second is not a defined, per se, category, and hence was not ever linked to cost. It is a modern judgement based on perceived quality. But I think you are correct, this string was originally more about Palmer than “ super-second”.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#42 Post by Dan Kravitz » January 27th, 2019, 4:43 pm

I have a soft spot for Palmer for numerous reasons (especially the fact that it is Sally's Wine) and I think often merits its price.

There is no official roster of 'Super Seconds' and the unofficial roster seems to be ever-changing: Lynch Bages has been on the cusp forever but today Pontet-Canet seems to be there as well. Many official seconds sell for the price of 5ths below the level of Lynch Bages and Pontet-Canet. Until the takeover by the Dillons, La Mission Haut Brion seemed as likely a candidate for 1st as Mouton was in the day.

I haven't stopped buying Bordeaux to lay down, although I buy much less of it and am unlikely to enjoy 2015s and 2016s at their prime, assuming they are still being built as 30 - 50 year wines. I will probably dip into my unopened case of 1999 Palmer this coming winter, when it hits 20 years. That is young, even though it probably has more Merlot in the final blends than almost any other Classified Medoc.

Ignoring my soft spot as much as I can, to reply to Mark's original post, I would put Palmer, over all the vintages I've had for these wines since the 60s, about equal with Leoville Las Cases, and a little ahead of Pichon Lalande and Ducru Boogaloo. YMMV, which is why we have a wine board with long, discursive threads.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#43 Post by Neal.Mollen » January 27th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 9:06 am
A Rubin Stein wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 8:45 am
I have a fondness for Palmer, after reading in "Wine and War" that Palmer hid Jews during World War II.
That I didn’t know. That might get me to reassess my feeling that Palmer is always excellent but slightly too polished and silky to get me excited.

Might want to borrow that book. Never read it.
I did not know that either. Thanks for the education
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#44 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » January 27th, 2019, 5:14 pm

Cool thread. This is one of the major Chateaux that I have only very little experience with. Pricey stuff.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#45 Post by Dan Kravitz » January 27th, 2019, 6:11 pm

The majority owners of Chateau Palmer are the Sichel family, of German Jewish origin (with British and other branches). It was originally part of Chateau d'Issan and was purchased in 1814 by the retired English general Palmer. It was then purchased in 1853 by the Pereire Brothers, French Jewish bankers of Portuguese origin, rivals of the Rothschilds. The Sichels purchased it bit by bit, the final purchase coming in 1938, in partnership with the Mahler-Besse family (I believe a 3rd family owns ~10%). So no surprise that Jews were sheltered. Peter M. F. Sichel was interned in France as a young man, escaped and worked for the OSS (forerunner of the CIA) during WW II. He then returned to the family business and (IMO the only blot on his record) created Blue Nun. Peter Allen Sichel, from the English branch, was in charge of Chateau Palmer when I was selling Bordeaux as my primary business and I was welcomed at the Chateau several times. Peter Allen Sichel owned Chateau d'Angludet outright, a far more modest property, and that was where he lived. I always found everything about Palmer and the people involved to be wonderful; as mentioned I have a soft spot for it and continue to buy even at today's prices.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#46 Post by James Billy » January 28th, 2019, 1:59 am

Blue nun probably got a lot of people into wine.

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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#47 Post by Marc Frontario » January 28th, 2019, 6:12 am

2004 alter ego stole my heart....too bad it got more modern
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#48 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 28th, 2019, 6:42 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm
Ramon C wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 3:58 pm



Jayson had always called it admirably very well and fair with the wines at off lines that I've had with him. However, this time I'll disagree with his take on Palmer being >>> LLC. Even in 83 and 89, where Palmer hit it over the wall, I thought LLC still got hit 2nd and 3rd base hits. Moving on to the 90s, while Palmer did very well and kicked butt in '99 , I still think that LLC did better in all the other years in that decade, all the way to 2002.

Btw, I think Palmer's 2004 is one of the wines of the vintage.
Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
Put me down as one with big love for LLC.
We seem to have similar tastes, but not with this. A lot of disappointments, especially 1982 and 1986. Very good wines in 1985 and 1989, and a brilliant 1996. But overall for me, a wine with a great reputation that too seldom delivers.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#49 Post by R. Frankel » January 28th, 2019, 11:51 am

Thanks for sharing the history, fascinating.
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Re: The anomaly that is Chateau Palmer.

#50 Post by Howard Cooper » January 28th, 2019, 1:11 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 6:42 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 4:06 pm


Fully expected and respected. Other people have big love for LLC that I keep trying to understand and can’t.
Put me down as one with big love for LLC.
We seem to have similar tastes, but not with this. A lot of disappointments, especially 1982 and 1986. Very good wines in 1985 and 1989, and a brilliant 1996. But overall for me, a wine with a great reputation that too seldom delivers.
When did you last have the 82. After being closed for decades, it has started getting really good during the last year or two.
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