Is this orange wine ORANGE?

2010 Roche aux Moines. Really great Savennieres
But orange
Does anyone know why Chenin gets that orange here?
And it is dead at retail fwiw

I doubt it’s orange, despite the color. And yes, chenin can take on a deep hue like that. I think Savennieres has been D@R for ages!

Markus is right, that’s an orange-colored white wine, not an orange wine.

The difference? Orange wines I have had have all been traditionally white but left with skin contact take on an orange hue. Regardless of how it happned that Chenin is now an orange wine.

The OP asks why.

Has anyone done a mass spec study of Chemin or Sauternes to try to determine why it can be or can turn orange? Can the chemists or winemakers posit a guess?

Also was this wine in particular made in an oxidative style? I’ve had wines from this house that were and were not oxidative and have a recollection the house style has evolved over time and generational change but would have to investigate further to confirm.

I’ve never noticed any correlation anecdotally between chenin’s orange color and an oxidative style although I’m guessing the natural redox reaction processes are in some way responsible for many chenins (and other wines) getting more orange over time. Would love to see mass spec on this.

The difference is that the term orange wine (or amber wine) is synonymous with a skin-contact white. If a white wine without any skin contact develops an orange color, it doesn’t magically turn into an orange wine.

Otto, I think you are right on this one. Don’t think there is skin contact here in the sense of an “Orange” wine. It’s just a white wine that is orange color.

Precisely.

I’m not sure if there is a single skin-contact orange wine Savennières out there, even though a great number of them - especially ones with any age to them - are conspicuously deep, coppery orange in color.

I suppose the color is a combination of many things. Usually Savennières wines are made from noticeably late-harvested grapes that are vinified dry, are quite high in extract and often aged at least somewhat oxidatively. I think the wines themselves are not that prone to oxidation (based on how long-lived they can be) but most likely they contain a high amount of material that tends to oxidize and get pigmented quite rapidly. This is all mere guesswork, based on the Savennières wines that have been more pale golden in their youth and turned relatively deep bronze quite fast, yet not showing any oxidative characteristics (in the nose or on the palate) outside the appearance.

Yes but why?
I have seen it before in this particular wine, but not in most other Chenin Blanc (dry and sweet)
Are Joly´s wines orange too?

I don’t know for sure, but I gave a well-educated guess above.

I have seen it before in this particular wine, but not in most other Chenin Blanc (dry and sweet)

I have seen that in many Chenin Blancs, sweet and dry.

Are Joly´s wines orange too?

Do you mean if they are orange wines or if they are orange-colored?

No to both - unless they are aged for a very long time; then they might take on a coppery-orange hue.

As the wine was “dead at retail” (to quote tHe OP), in this particular case, irrespective of how Chenin may generally age, it seems that the wine was badly oxidised.

I wouldn’t say that before actually tasting the wine. I’ve had multiple Loire Chenins that are somewhat oxdative, yet still very youthful and on their way up - definitely not past their peak. More like something akin to Heredia whites, but with typical Chenin character. Of course it’s always striking when you have the first pour and the wine is more amber than whitish-yellow, but quite rarely they’ve been actually badly oxidized. And every now and then some have been more evolved than what one would expect from a wine of that age, and in those cases it’s hard to assess whether the wine is purposefully oxidative or not.

Thanks Otto
Never saw this color in a young (8 year old) wine from Huet, Foreau Domaine du Clos Naudin, Chidaine, Baumard, etc

I guess you know the joke, but this wine was extremely fresh and typical for Savennieres. No oxidation at all
I have had one Roche aux Moines from 1995 that was a bit poxed

With a quick check through my TNs, some young yet deeply-colored Chenins include:

• Fosse-Seche Saumur at 3 years of age
• Sauvion Coteaux de Layon at 8 years of age
• Fesles Bonnezeaux at 18 years of age (not young, but very deep coppery orange, while a Moulin Touchais Coteaux de Layon with 19 years of age was pale lemony yellow)
• Le Rocher-des-Violettes Montlouis-sur-Loire at 7 years of age
• Patrick Baudoin Savennières at 4 years of age
• Pithon-Paille Anjou at 5 years of age
• Les Roches Seches Anjou at 3 years of age

So it’s quite safe to say your Chenin is not a unique snowflake. This just seems to be the first time you’ve come across such a wine.

There’'s obviously something I do not understand. If the wines was fresh what does “dead st retail” mean?

It’s a running gag from a silly Burgundy thread started by Alan Eden a week or two ago.

To night, after 5 days open in the fridge it is still pleasantly vibrant and copper-coloured

FWIW, color of recently opened 2011 Coteaux Du Layon (Chenin Blanc)

I’ve had dozens and dozens of orange-colored Chenin of all ages although more typical with some time in bottle, like 5-95 years.