At what age does Premox becomes just oxidation in white Burgs?

Curious. In this new world of white Burgundy that we live in, when does premox stops being premature and becomes natural oxidation? 10 years? 15 years?

There is of course no set definition. I think it likely depends on the wine hierarchy. Maybe Bourgogne at 5, premier cru at 10, and grand cru at 15. We expect grand cru to age longer than premier, and so forth, hence those times—plucked out of the air. Interesting question.

Producer dependent as well. But I think it’s longer than 10/15 for 1er/GC. That means right now if a 2000 Montrachet is oxidized, it means it’s not premox but just oxidation and I disagree with that.

Before the premox era, weren’t high-level white burgundies like premier and grand crus from the Cote de Beaune expected to age on a similar time scale to red burgundies? So thirty plus years was not impossible?

more like 50+ years. if the wine is properly stored it shouldn’t actually taste/smell oxidized for a very long time.

maturity =/= oxidation

I think I would also add an allowance for vintage variance as I wouldn’t expect the weaker years which can be rot afflicted and carry lower acidity to age as well all other things being equal.

I think of the premox as not “mere” oxidation. It seems to have a very specific character…and is not always totally shot…just very odd and nothing like a maturing WB.

So, I think that can happen virtually at any stage, though to some it might not be “premature” by the time a wine is a decade old or more. To me, a good, normal WB should be fine at 20. (A 2002 Niellon Chassagne Chaumees 2002 was singing this weekend at 16).

A friend and I were discussing whether I’ve kept WB too long; aged it too much in my cellar. (He drinks mainly young wines at this point). I don’t think that’s the problem, though. The wine is flawed, not the aging curve. Some of us have decided to let them age…because if they’re good when young, it’s still a disappointment, as aging them was the goal. So…

I look at premox as a corrupted aging curve…not a product of an elongated one. And, what a disappointment the whole phenomenon is when the good bottles have some age and are wonderful. Bottle variation is the problem…not aging them too long for their capabilities.

Does anyone believe that bottles that would eventually prematurely oxidize taste differently in their youth than bottles that wouldn’t/don’t?

There are different flavour characteristics between an aged wine going over the hill and an premoxed wine.

I think a good white Burgundy (good producer/vintage) should be able to age well for at least 20+ years with ease …perhaps 30+ years. last we had great Burgs from early 80s which were still very lively. .

Not exactly sure what you’re asking. but many of these wine, especially early on. make some of us scrach our heads. The ones that are affected are odd, at the very least. Whether they are shot or heading that way…or merely marred…who can tell. If you’re asking whether there was a point when these wines were fine…I’d say there was…at bottling. The problem, IMO, increases as the protective SO2 goes out of the bottle.

I am more and more convinced that the issue is poor seals at the bottle neck…therefore, random within any given group.

Most reasonable wines (including Bourgognes) stored well with good closure should go 10 years IMO.

Thanks for your response. Yes, I am essentially asking if one may perceive flaws prior to the wine being considered prematurely oxidized. And if so, what those flaws tend to be and resemble.

Thanks to all for the comments so far.

How would you differentiate between normal aging/oxidation notes and pre mox notes? Butterscotch versus sherry?

For me, bottle by bottle variation is a component of premox - i.e. some bottles from the same lot are shot, others are good. Case in point, a friend ‘gave’ me 8 btls of 2000 Fichet P-M Referts on a contingent basis ($50/btl, but ONLY if they are good bottles). First bottle opened 2 nights ago was dak in color and shot - poured down the drain. Tonight’s bottle is a lovely, fully mature bottle. If all the bottles had been oxidised to the same level, I would have called them simply OTH. But the first bottle was premoxed even after 18 years.

The inconsistencies and variabilty of the bottles makes it hard to get a bead on the march toward maturity. And both 1er/GC should be drinking well at 20 years, depending on what you are looking from in the wines. If either are shot, something is wrong.

If I read you correctly, your point is that if a 1c/gc white burg from a good producer/good vintage does not make it to 20 in good shape, there is something wrong?

Yes, I would think either should make it in pretty good shape.

Good point.

Not sure I can agree. A bad bottle after 20 years could just be a bad cork.

I agree with the chorus – a white burg should age in the way you would expect a wine to age, with fruit gradually fading and so forth, not just one day become oxidized.

But the reality is that oxidation will be the end point for most White Burgs now and into the future.

I just opened a 2014 Huet Sec Le Haut Lieu last week and it was premoxed. I’ve now had several chenins from Huet, Chidaine and others post 2010 vintage which were premoxed. Same thing for white Bordeaux. You just can’t trust whites these days.